25000 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: peace, Icaro Dear Connie: connie:" ... but I didn't do any > artificial > respiration or anything." ----------------------------------------------------- (Woe to me if I break the high mind and spirit of this noble company of Pali and Dhamma students! God Forbids!!! But...I can´t resist...) HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Doing artificial respiration on flies...HAH ! ---------------------------------------------------- > Connie:" For the most part, no Beach Boys, heavy metal or > rap. For the rest, ok. > Something might be a favorite one time and then I > don't like it next > time I hear it." ------------------------------------------------------ So let it be. I am a bit eccletical on appreciating musical genres. Sometimes I need a shot of cafeine or something alike... and a good Heavy Metal beat do it very well. I don´t like rap and... as a tradition of Family, I like Tango!!! Classical and synphonic hits glad me too! ---------------------------------------------------- > Connie:" Yes, Nichiren is very different and I'm afraid I'm a > bit like a fly > myself to friends who put their faith there. Still, > the chanting > doesn't go away and I do like the LS." --------------------------------------------------- There are two types of Nichiren: the traditional one at clerical style and the layperson´s organizations: there is a lot of striffing between them!!! Anyway, the "Nam Myoho Rengue Kio" chanted with bhava and metta is really, really inspiring! And many animes like "Sakura Card Captors" ( sorry... I simply don´t know if you do like or not animated cartoons!) mention entire chapters of the LS!!! The LS is very interesting and a good reading at any time!!! You are at a good path, Connie!!! That´s the right mind to follow up!!!! With plenty of metta and peace, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25001 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Nina: N:" arana should be spelled: ara.na (this is > Velthuis, a dot under the n, > which makes a lot of difference). It means: far > from, away from." ---------------------------------------------------- PERFECT !!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is it, Nina!!! Don´t need to worry about Velthuis replacements: I use Norman Pali fonts that replaces the dotted n by ñ...which is supported by my portuguese ABNT keyboard. Is not Arana, is Araña... far from!!! Nina... thanks thanks thanks thanks.... The Dhammasangani now is becoming more and more akin of my understanding! With full Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25002 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Howard, Larry and Sarah, I'd like to add my understanding of concepts to what's already been said. Nothing new here, just a different emphasis and way of expressing it. Comments welcome. Concepts do not exist in any form. They are a conventional reality. To see why this is so, consider a related topic: Words. Words do not exist, either. Why not? Let's apprehend what is happening here and now and see that words as independent realities having their own nature are nowhere to be found. There are conditions giving rise to verbal intimation on my part. This is rupa born of citta. No words there, just rupa. Through many processes of the four elements, this rupa eventually gives rise to rupa that is manifested as color before your eyes. Your eye-contact with that color gives rise to various cittas and cetasikas. The objects of those cittas are always one of citta, cetasika, rupa or Nibbana. Some of these objects are previous cetasikas of perception, conditioned by previous experiences such as with verbal intimation, citta and cetasika. Speaking conventionally, we say that these objects are "marked by perception" and we might imagine that a word is such a mark. But this is a deceptive model. What we are really doing is perceiving a previous perception. The previous perception is the mark we are perceiving. No words there, either. Now the perception of such an object, along with feelings, volition, etc., may ultimately give rise to a speech volition and verbal intimation (rupa) on your part. The form of this rupa as speech or writing that others can interpret is conditioned from past experience as well. And so it goes on and on. There are no words anywhere in this process. There is only rupa, citta, cetasika and (if we are fortunate) Nibbana. The purpose of the verbal intimation that gave rise to the Abhidhamma and other such books (i.e. rupa) is to assist people in the development of insight and liberation. When conditions are right, this rupa can become an object of citta and lead towards purification. Towards this end, it might not be helpful for such a book to discuss the unreality of words and concepts. It's puzzling, to say the last, to read a sentence, conventionally regarded as being made up of words, that declares words do not exist. It's more helpful to speak of the conventional reality of words and concepts and to classify them in such a way that confusion does not arise. This is why the Abhidhamma speaks of concepts as objects of citta. But this is only verbal intimation giving rise to a particular manifestation of rupa in the form of the Abhidhamma. There are no words or concepts anywhere to be found. Just my 2 cents... Toby 25003 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi everyone, in a message from Sarah to Howard: > > >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who > achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing > instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the > Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so > without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going > "too far".< > .... > S: You did mention this before and I'd be interested in a reference if you or > someone else comes across it. It also half rings a bell to me. I'm also > thinking again of Christine's question about intelligence and insight. > I had an occasion to try to find this when asked about it on another message group. Unfortunately I could not find the exact Sutta, but did find reference to the Sutta. In the book "Buddhist Parables" by Eugene Watson Burlingame, the story is mentioned and is referenced to Buddhaghosa's Anguttara Commentary, Colombo, 1904, 130-135. From this perhaps someone can locate the Sutta....Ray 25004 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:54pm Subject: Welcomes for Susan Susan asked me to forward her note to the list -sent off-list by mistake. ============================================== Hi Sarah, Sarah: So glad to see you back - pls don't run away this time;-) Just keep asking simple qus and saying when you don't understand if anyone replies to you. --------------------- Susab: I won't run away Sara lol! I think last time I just wasn't ready so felt a bit overwhelmed with my own lack of understanding which made me feel a bit ignorant. However, the fact is I am ignorant and with that realisation I now feel ready to study the Dharma as opposed to reading it like a book which I hadn't actually realised I was doing. Thanks for the welcome.......... thank you to everyone for the warm welcome, and thank you Rob for giving me a place to start. I did have a look at the Abhidhamma and felt it was a bit complex for me at this time, so went to your suggested link Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", and found the Beginners section which I just what I need. Thanks Rob!! Susan 25005 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:57pm Subject: Finally !!! Noble Fellows of this Distinct Company of Pali and Dhamma Students! After unspeakable efforts of searching and mining datum of any sorts, I finally discovered a gold mine of dhamma texts!!! http://www.palikanon.com At last,at this website I will download a full copy of the Visuddhimagga and of the Abhidhamma Sangaha in German!!!! I will shake my Deutsche Spreche maker and, wipping off the sweat of my brows, I will be able to follow the discussions of the Vism XIV !!!!!! To be or not to be, that´s the questiom!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 25006 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:42pm Subject: The workings of sanna Hi Larry, Howard and others, I have been watching your "thinking" thread and wanted to contribute my understanding regarding the workings of sanna. The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" (rupa) as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. As an analogy, consider how television works. What appears on the screen is not a "flower", but rather many coloured dots that our mind constructs into an image of a "flower". The TV set simply presents dots to us and our mind does the rest. The eye-door citta process is followed by some bhavanga cittas and then a mind-door citta process arises, which takes a concept as object. The object of this first mind-door citta process after the eye-door citta process is the "mental image" of the visible object. The characteristic of the visible object (red, blue, etc.) was "marked" by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the eye-door citta process. This characteristic is noted by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the first mind-door citta process to mark the mental image (concept) of a coloured dot. The eye-door citta process now takes in another visible object (another dot) and a mental image (concept) of the second coloured dot is marked by the cetasika sanna. This is followed by more eye- door citta process, each with a mind-door citta process. When sufficient "dots" have been processed, a mind-door citta process with a concept of blocks of colour and shading is perceived. Blocks of colour and shading are marked by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the mind-door citta process. It is the cetasika sanna which "recognizes" these marked blocks and the concept of shape or form becomes the object of more mind-door citta processes. This is followed by the critical step of naming or "designation". The shape or form, is marked as an object of a mind-door citta process. Subsequent mind-door citta processes note this marking and "remember" the name of "flower". It would appear that dots, blocks of colour / shading and shapes are "short term" memories, available to provide continuity, but not used for "long term memory". It would appear that long-term memories are tied to naming and this is why we cannot remember our early childhood (before we learned names for things). The Suttas explain that sanna creates concepts. We have seen that the sense-door citta process a small, elemental bit of information and the subsequent mind-door citta processes process this into increasingly complex concepts (Dots -> Blocks of colour -> Shapes -> Names). It is the role of the cetasika sanna to provide the "glue" that provides continuity by marking objects from one citta process and recognizing the marked objects in the subsequent mind-door citta process. The cetasika sanna also provides the "glue" that allows mental objects to become increasingly complex by recognizing mental objects and associating them with other concepts in first short-term and then in long-term memory. It is important to note that this "recognition" is superficial. The commentary gives the analogy of a blind man touching the head on an elephant and saying "an elephant is like a big kettle" while another blind man touches the ear and says "an elephant is like a big fan". The association used by sanna is superficial, without wisdom (panna). The association used by sanna is brief, like lightning. Unlike panna, sanna does not penetrate the true nature of the object. The building of the concept does not stop with "naming". Long term memory stores names with their associated feeling (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral). Along with the name, sanna also "remembers" the associated feeling. This stage of judgment is what completes the link between feeling and craving in dependent origination. Craving is conditioned by pleasant feeling associated with concepts. Visible objects condition neutral feeling and therefore do not condition craving directly. Pleasant feeling is associated with current concepts when sanna "remembers" past concepts and the associated pleasant feeling. This progression is described in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one obsesses. What obsesses one is the cause perceptions and notions tinged by obsession that beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. The first paragraph explains how feeling arises naturally and objectively from contact. The key to understanding the second paragraph comes from the commentary, which explains that "perceives" should be interpreted as meaning "naming" (the Sanskrit equivalent of sanna, samja, means "name"). The wording of the second paragraph makes it clear that the process of naming, "thinking about" and obsession (papancasanna) is a subjective process. Visible objects with neutral feeling give rise to names (concepts) and it is these concepts which inherit pleasant feeling from the past memory (courtesy of sanna). The pleasant feeling conditions craving and, as explained in the third paragraph of the Honeyball Sutta, this conditions dukkha (and by extension, ties us to samsara). The Vibhanga (second book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka) classifies sanna as unwholesome (akusala), wholesome (kusala) and neutral. Whenever something is sensed, it is also recognized. Sanna always accompanies and follows vedana, but depending on the orientation of sanna, one may generate craving or start generating wisdom (by remembering the characteristics of existence; anicca, dukkha and anatta). According to the Suttas, unwholesome sanna conditions the arising of views (such as the personality view, sakaya-ditthi, based on ignorance), sorrow and obsession. Sanna can also be wholesome (kusala) when it is geared towards the recognition of elements essential for liberation. When Ananda reported that a monk was sick, the Buddha told Ananda to recite the "ten sanna" in front of the monk to condition kusala thoughts in the monk. The ten sanna are: - The recognition of impermanence (aniccasanna) - The recognition of selflessness (anattasanna) - The recognition of unpleasantness (asubhasanna) - The recognition of danger (adinavasanna) - The recognition of abandoning (pahanasanna) - The recognition of dispassion (viragasanna) - The recognition of cessation (nirodhasanna) - The recognition of disenchantment with the entire world (sabbaloke anabhiratasanna) - The recognition of impermanence in reference to all compounded things (sabbe sankharesu aniccasanna) - The mindfulness of breathing (anapanasati) Just as sanna is between feeling (vedana) and craving (tanha) in the chain of dependent origination, whenever the five aggregates are listed, sanna is always listed between feeling and sankhara (sankhara includes craving). Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 25007 From: Eddie Lou Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:54pm Subject: Pali language. Icaro, Thx for the website. Just curious, it seems like you are quite versed with Pali vocabulary. Did you grow up with or learn later? I may have missed the first part when you intro yourself. Anyone is welcome to join in to tell how (s)he pick up Pali. I myself been born in Myanmar, know some because Burmese language has adopted a lot of Pali since ancient time. Thx. Metta, Eddie. 25008 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: The workings of sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" (rupa) > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. +++++++ Dear Robm, Do you have a reference for this. It is different from my understanding of rupayatanna. RobertK 25009 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Andrew and Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment > Hi, Andrew - > > VERY nice. Thank you! Agreed, both--much appreciated. mike 25010 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 2-5 for comment Abhidhamma in the Buddhist Canon Slide Contents ============== Tipitaka (Three Baskets) Vinaya - Authorative teaching - Lists of rules and regulations for monks and nuns - "Avoid evil" Suttas - Conventional teaching - Has the form of recorded speeches - Uses common, imprecise language - "Do good" Abhidhamma - Ultimate teaching - Has the form of an advanced textbook - Uses precise, technical language - "Purify the mind" Speaker Notes ============= A "Canon" is a set of sacred books. In Theravada Buddhism, the sacred books are called "Tipitaka", which in Pali means "Three Baskets". All together, the Tipitaka is about eleven times the size of the Christian Bible. The first basket in the Tipitaka is the Vinaya. In the Vinaya, the Buddha used his authority to lay down rules of behaviour for monks and nuns. The Vinaya tells us to avoid evil through awareness. In society, "evil" usually implies hurting somebody else; in Buddhism, "evil" means contaminating our own minds. A contaminated mind is the forerunner of all evil speech or deeds. The second basket in the Tipitaka is the Suttas. These are the recorded speeches of the Buddha. They often start with the phrase, "Thus have I heard …" The Buddha used everyday, conversational language in the Suttas, depending on the audience to whom He was speaking. Many of the Suttas tell us to be good through effort and determination. In society, "being good" usually implies helping somebody else; in Buddhism, "good" means purifying our own minds. A pure mind is the forerunner of all good speech or deeds. The third basket in the Tipitaka is the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma has the form of an advanced textbook; like a textbook, it is difficult to sit down and start reading the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma uses precise technical terms. As an analogy, the common, imprecise language used by the Suttas are like an image on TV screen, whereas the technical, precise language used by the Abhidhamma are like the coloured dots which form image. The focus of the Abhidhamma is to purify the mind by seeing things as they truly are and thereby uprooting defilements. The Suttas and the Abhidhamma are two different ways of saying the same thing. 25011 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna Dear RobK, Do you take ruupaayattana to be the entire visual field? Does it arise (and subside) at once? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 3:57 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" > (rupa) > > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. > +++++++ > Dear Robm, > Do you have a reference for this. It is different from my > understanding of rupayatanna. > RobertK 25012 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Dhammadaana DSG, I felt the way Harry Potter must feel when Hedwig arrives--a big white 'Royal Mail' bag was propped against my door when I got home, containing the 'Dispeller of Delusion' and 'Summary and Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma', courtesy of our Mods (airmail, no less!)--hearty helpings of anumodanaa all around. Sarah and Jon, thanks so much--how should I use the latter? I'm unfamiliar with this title--wait, got it--it's the Abhihdammatthasangaha (the Summary) and the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii (the Commentary). Do you compare the Exposition with BB's CMA? There's more here than I can hope to digest in what's left of this lifetime--thanks a million. mike 25013 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi RobM, ----- Original Message ----- From: robmoult To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 3:42 PM Subject: [dsg] The workings of sanna > The eye-door citta process is followed by some bhavanga cittas and > then a mind-door citta process arises, which takes a concept as > object. The object of this first mind-door citta process after the > eye-door citta process is the "mental image" of the visible object. > The characteristic of the visible object (red, blue, etc.) > was "marked" by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the eye-door > citta process. This characteristic is noted by the cetasika sanna in > the cittas of the first mind-door citta process to mark the mental > image (concept) of a coloured dot. > > The eye-door citta process now takes in another visible object > (another dot) and a mental image (concept) of the second coloured > dot is marked by the cetasika sanna. This is followed by more eye- > door citta process, each with a mind-door citta process. This is pretty much as I see it too (no pun intended). Seems to me, though, that those processes are continually intersperesed with other sense- and mind-door processes so that, seemingly, as the (concept of) visual field is formed other sense-fields are formed (again, seemingly) simultaneously--we seem to hear the gull as we see it fly--actually countless cittakha.nas, visual and auditory, (as well as many others, of course) arising and subsiding WITHIN each field and interspersed, I think, to make up the picture and the sound (in retrospect). What do you think? mike 25014 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Hi Icaro, I don't speak German but would be interested in any differences between the German Vism. and the English one. Is the translator Nyanatiloka? Larry Icaro: "Noble Fellows of this Distinct Company of Pali and Dhamma Students! After unspeakable efforts of searching and mining datum of any sorts, I finally discovered a gold mine of dhamma texts!!! http://www.palikanon.com At last,at this website I will download a full copy of the Visuddhimagga and of the Abhidhamma Sangaha in German!!!! I will shake my Deutsche Spreche maker and, wipping off the sweat of my brows, I will be able to follow the discussions of the Vism XIV !!!!!! To be or not to be, that´s the questiom!!!!" 25015 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Toby - Very good! I like what you have to say here. One question: What about thoughts? Where do they fit in? With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/5/03 4:42:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > > Dear Howard, Larry and Sarah, > > I'd like to add my understanding of concepts to what's already been said. > Nothing new here, just a different emphasis and way of expressing it. > Comments welcome. > > Concepts do not exist in any form. They are a conventional reality. To see > why this is so, consider a related topic: Words. Words do not exist, > either. Why not? Let's apprehend what is happening here and now and see that > words as independent realities having their own nature are nowhere to be found. > There are conditions giving rise to verbal intimation on my part. This is > rupa born of citta. No words there, just rupa. Through many processes of the > four elements, this rupa eventually gives rise to rupa that is manifested as > color before your eyes. Your eye-contact with that color gives rise to > various cittas and cetasikas. The objects of those cittas are always one of > citta, cetasika, rupa or Nibbana. Some of these objects are previous cetasikas of > perception, conditioned by previous experiences such as with verbal > intimation, citta and cetasika. Speaking conventionally, we say that these objects > are "marked by perception" and we might imagine that a word is such a mark. > But this is a deceptive model. What we are really doing is perceiving a > previous perception. The previous perception is the mark we are perceiving. No > words there, either. Now the perception of such an object, along with > feelings, volition, etc., may ultimately give rise to a speech volition and verbal > intimation (rupa) on your part. The form of this rupa as speech or writing > that others can interpret is conditioned from past experience as well. And so > it goes on and on. There are no words anywhere in this process. There is > only rupa, citta, cetasika and (if we are fortunate) Nibbana. > > The purpose of the verbal intimation that gave rise to the Abhidhamma and > other such books (i.e. rupa) is to assist people in the development of insight > and liberation. When conditions are right, this rupa can become an object of > citta and lead towards purification. Towards this end, it might not be > helpful for such a book to discuss the unreality of words and concepts. It's > puzzling, to say the last, to read a sentence, conventionally regarded as being > made up of words, that declares words do not exist. It's more helpful to > speak of the conventional reality of words and concepts and to classify them in > such a way that confusion does not arise. This is why the Abhidhamma speaks > of concepts as objects of citta. But this is only verbal intimation giving > rise to a particular manifestation of rupa in the form of the Abhidhamma. > There are no words or concepts anywhere to be found. > > Just my 2 cents... > > Toby > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 25016 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Rob: "Comments?" Hi Rob, I see you have been reading Mathieu Boisvert. I'm understanding the "10 sa~n~naa" as 10 signs. In Vism. it says sa~n~naa cannot penetrate the three general characteristics so I think this means imagining impermanence and understanding impermanence are different. A possible controversy may arise: concentration is the proximate cause of understanding, "strong imagination" (thirasa~n~naa) is the proximate case of sati. So the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is a concept (mental image). Explain that! Larry 25017 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 5:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Howard: "Hi, Toby - Very good! I like what you have to say here. One question: What about thoughts? Where do they fit in?" Hi Toby, Ditto for me. The thoughts running through your head as you read this email are certainly ungraspable but they have a realty as vitakka-vicaara. So the question is what is the difference between a "thought-conception" (vitakka) and a concept? How can there be a nonexistent object of consciousness? Perhaps a better question is in what sense is a concept nonexistent? Larry 25018 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 the Khandhas Hi Nina, Wonderful! Looking forward to it. You are right. I don't have these books. Larry Nina: "P.s. Larry, I notice that in The Vis there is, in the next paras, reference to the Vibhanga too, and you may not have the Vibhanga, Book of Analysis? Then I shall help, adding a note." 25019 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/5/03 6:45:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Larry, Howard and others, > > I have been watching your "thinking" thread and wanted to contribute > my understanding regarding the workings of sanna. > > ================================= Wow! No comments yet - too much to digest! ;-) Thank you for this. I will examine it carefully. Just on 1st glance, though, the question occurred to me as what exactly the nature is of the image-block concepts that are mind created. They are what sort of cetasikas? (If my question just makes no sense, it is because I still need to properly go over what you wrote. So far I've just scanned it.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 25020 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Dear Larry: Larry:" I don't speak German" -------------------------------------------------------------- Not me, Larry...but this is a good opportunity to begin to!!!!!!!!!! Run, Larry! Run !!! ------------------------------------------------------------- Larry:"but would be interested in any differences between > the German Vism. and the English one. Is the translator Nyanatiloka?" ------------------------------------------------------------ Yep! Shri Nyanatiloka. The first advantage of the german´s Vism is the proper order of paragraphs and chapters. The Tipitaka.org´s version,despite to be complete in Pali, at first glance is not so easy to follow up! It´s somewhat a little laziness of mine, but Buddhaghosa´s pali is very intrincate...the German version seems to me more easy to handle with!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > 25021 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:48pm Subject: Re: Pali language. Dear Eddie Lou Eddie Lou:" Just curious, it seems like you are quite versed with > Pali vocabulary." ------------------------------------------------------------------- My resources on pali are very limited, but I´ve got now all pali fonts, Pali Dictionaries and the grammars loke Duroseille´s I need to deal with aptly. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Eddie Lou:" Did you grow up with or learn later?" ----------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve learned pali at pieces, sometimes by chance, without a definite method. There´s a lot of work to be done at this field yet! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eddie Lou: "I may have missed the first part when you intro > yourself. > Anyone is welcome to join in to tell how (s)he pick > up Pali. > I myself been born in Myanmar, know some because > Burmese language has adopted a lot of Pali since > ancient time. Thx." ------------------------------------------------------------------ You may check in my past messages at this vibrant dsg of ours about my first introduction here! Myanmar is doing an excellent work on divulgate the complete pali Tipitaka to all people interested on it. The issues posted online are of a very good quality and with good natural fonts to all pali reader! Keep boostin´ fella! Your country is at the vanguard of dhamma divulgation! mettaya, Ícaro 25022 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Icaro: "Dear Larry: Larry:" I don't speak German" ---------------------------------------------- Not me, Larry...but this is a good opportunity to begin to!!!!!!!!!! Run, Larry! Run !!!" Hi Icaro, Too old Icaro, too old. My brains get stuck. If you explain the German words occasionally I think that would add another dimension. Plus I have a lot of respect for Ven. Nyanatiloka. Larry 25023 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Thank you for posting this, Larry. Nyanatiloka's discussion of the kandhas makes clear [assuming he speaks correctly for the Buddha] that the human realm in all its levels of experience are meant to be seen as unreal. To speak of the five kandhas as "empty, unreal and unsubstantial" seems to present a challenging view to those who might argue that the reality of the moment at least is "real," eg, that there is at least a real 'something' that exists in the moment, although we usually obscure it through conceptualization. This definition of the kandhas seems to present a vision in which there is no substantive reality, and it leaves the realm of reality, it seems, to a kind of self-enclosed moment in which consciousness creates a moment of experience within itself, rather than makes true contact with an outside object. It is a totally fleeting world of illusion that is presented here. I wonder if you would agree that there really is no place of substantiality of any kind left in this vision, and one wonders how the act of consciousness even manages to take place. I wonder if anyone can read this and think that there is still an objective world of objects presumed to exist beyond the senses and consciousness in this vision of Buddhism? Best, Robert Ep. ================================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is part of Nyanatiloka's definition of "khandha": [snip] > Further in S. XXII, 95: "Suppose that a man who is not blind were to > behold the many bubbles on the Ganges as they are driving along; and he > should watch them and carefully examine them. After carefully examining > them, however, they will appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial. > In exactly the same way does the monk behold all the corporeal phenomena > ... feelings ... perceptions ... mental formations ... states of > consciousness, whether they be of the past, present or future ... far or > near. And he watches them and examines them carefully; and after > carefully examining them, they appear to him empty, unreal and > unsubstantial." > > The 5 groups are compared, respectively, to a lump of froth, a bubble, a > mirage, a coreless plantain stem, and a conjuring trick (S. XXII, 95). > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm 25024 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Robert Epstein: "It is a totally fleeting world of illusion that is presented here. I wonder if you would agree that there really is no place of substantiality of any kind left in this vision, and one wonders how the act of consciousness even manages to take place." Hi Robert, I agree; well said. The defining of mentality and materiality is a tricky business. On the one hand we are not talking about "things" but on the other hand we are not talking about nothing at all. Experience is ungraspable and ultimately unsatisfying, but first of all it is not one but two: mentality and materiality. Before that we have to acknowledge the difference between thinking about experience and direct experience. Direct experience is actually quite common but because it is so impermanent we try to capture it with thoughts. It is the very elusiveness of experience that we need to see first hand. We really need to see just how real reality really is. Larry 25025 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 12 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to sixteen (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is "accompanied by equanimity". So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity. (5.) 'I.e. the four paths with the first jhana and those with the second, third, and fourth, out of the five' (Pm. 434). 25026 From: Eddie Lou Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali language. Dear Icaro, Thanks Icaro. On your mention of Myanmar, I just went there on websites for some nostalgic experience. I really miss Myanmar, Buddhism, the people, the land, the culture, etc, etc. Thx, again. Metta, Eddie. 25027 From: Eddie Lou Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Search for 'Cause of Rebirth Samsara'- A triviality. Dear Robert, rjkjp1 wrote: > --- Dear Eddie, > The credit all goes to you. It shows that clinging > to view is weak. I think this understanding is part of sacca-nana the first round of development of wisdom. > Robertk Thx for the motivation, I will have to strive more and harder. Metta, Eddie Lou. 25028 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi all, This looks like a difficult paragraph to expain, so maybe several people could have a go at it. The goal is to be lucid, thorough, and brief. Use your own words but don't worry about repeating what someone else said. Repeating is good. How about Robert K., Mike, Rob, Suan and anyone else who wants to jump in. Larry --------------------- 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to sixteen (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is "accompanied by equanimity". So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity. (5.) 'I.e. the four paths with the first jhana and those with the second, third, and fourth, out of the five' (Pm. 434). 25029 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Howard and Larry, H:> Very good! I like what you have to say here. One question: What about > thoughts? Where do they fit in? > Here's my understanding of thoughts on the fundamental level that we are discussing. They key, as many are pointing out, is the activity of the cetasika perception (sanna). When thought is taking place what is happening is that sanna of one citta is conditioning the next arising citta and cetasikas and then perceiving them as objects of the citta after that. Other cetasikas, like feeling, wrong view, etc., are also conditioning the next citta and cetasikas, but sanna has the following unique property: When a citta or cetasika conditioned by a previous sanna becomes the object of a new citta, sanna is able to recognize its own conditioning of the citta or cetasika. It is as if sanna can say about its conditioning effects: "I know that! I did it!" This is what provides continuity of thought processes. But the objects of cittas during thought are always cittas or cetasikas (or Nibbana on a really good day). The presence of vitakka and/or vicarra simply gets the sanna ball rolling and keeps it rolling. The reason you cannot pin it down any further than this is because you can't say which cetasikas conditioned by sanna will become the objects of subsequent cittas. That's why we speak of sanna "marking objects." The objects are only citta or cetasikas and the mark is only the fact of having been conditioned by a previous sanna. On a fundamental level, there are no objects besides cittas and cetasikas involved in such processes. The sense in which concepts don't exist is that they are not found anywhere. Only citta and cetasika conditioned by sanna. For example, suppose a citta arises with a cetasika of wrong view of identity present. Suppose one vaguely senses the presence of the view and endeavors to articulate it. This could go in a wholesome direction, if for example one seeks to investigate the view with the knowledge that it is false. Or it could go in an unwholesome direction, if for example one simply subscribes to the view and asserts it as truth. In either case, what brings the view from being vaguely sensed to being articulated is the activity of sanna conditioning the cetasika of wrong view in one citta and perceiving it as an object in the next. (I'm oversimplifying here to express my point. No doubt there are other cetasikas also being conditioned and perceived. For example, sometimes the act of bringing a vague sense of a view to the point of being articulated involves perception of feelings associated with that view. That's a sequence of many cittas with sanna conditioning vedana in one citta and perceiving it as object in another. And of course, there's a massive amount of sanna-conditioning from birth onward that goes into the arising of verbal intimation in adulthood.) The reason we don't speak of feeling or other cetasikas as marking objects in the same way as sanna, even though they do condition them, is because such conditioning is not normally observed the way it is with sanna. Observing the way feelings, for example, condition citta and cetasika is a key part of mindfulness. But sanna operates the way it does regardless of one's level of insight. Sanna's perception of itself is not insight into dependent arising or any of the three characteristics. It's a purely sanna-constructed reality. If it's accompanied by wisdom (panna) then good things happen, if by delusion (moha), then they don't. Toby 25030 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 2:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hello Howard and all, Thanks for this Howard. Apart from being affected by an emotional reaction to a horrific situation, I was confused by thinking that whatever happens to a person is to be viewed as entirely the consequence of their own previous actions, single or accumulated. Believing that people only reap what they sow seemed to be a type of judgmentalism, to lead to indifference towards the plight of others, to be a type of conceit, and even to induce a slightly malicious feeling of 'you'll get yours one day, mate' towards others doing wrong. Your explanation of what happens to us as being only partly attributable to any past actions seems sensible. It leaves responsibility with the perpetrator, rather than just blaming the victims. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I suspect that kamma and its effects form an *extraordinarily* complex > causal web, and that most popular understandings of it are wildly primitive > compared to the reality. One thing I think may be good to keep in mind is that > kamma (one's "own" kamma) is but one if several niyama, or cosmic principles > active in human affairs. While all sense experience that comes to us is kamma > vipaka in the sense that at least *some* previous intention/intentional action > constituted conditions for its arising, sometimes that may be the smallest > part. When A attacks B, the primary condition for what B experiences is most > typically the akusula kamma of A far more than the akusala vipaka of B. If B's > experience were entirely or largely due to B's own vipaka, then A would be the > innocent vehicle for the working out of B's kamma, a rather perverse notion, as > I see it. So called innocent victims, are, I really do believe, innocent for > the most part. There is no way for us to sift out how much of what ill comes to > us is "kammic compensation" and how much is being the innocent recipient of > evil actions of others, but I think that in this area it is reasonably safe to > *primarily* rely on common sense. > > With metta, > Howard > 25031 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/6/03 12:31:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > Thank you for posting this, Larry. > > Nyanatiloka's discussion of the kandhas makes clear [assuming he > speaks correctly for the Buddha] that the human realm in all its > levels of experience are meant to be seen as unreal. To speak of the > five kandhas as "empty, unreal and unsubstantial" seems to present a > challenging view to those who might argue that the reality of the > moment at least is "real," eg, that there is at least a real > 'something' that exists in the moment, although we usually obscure it > through conceptualization. > > This definition of the kandhas seems to present a vision in which > there is no substantive reality, and it leaves the realm of reality, > it seems, to a kind of self-enclosed moment in which consciousness > creates a moment of experience within itself, rather than makes true > contact with an outside object. > > It is a totally fleeting world of illusion that is presented here. I > wonder if you would agree that there really is no place of > substantiality of any kind left in this vision, and one wonders how > the act of consciousness even manages to take place. > > I wonder if anyone can read this and think that there is still an > objective world of objects presumed to exist beyond the senses and > consciousness in this vision of Buddhism? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ================================ > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >Here is part of Nyanatiloka's definition of "khandha": > > [snip] > > >Further in S. XXII, 95: "Suppose that a man who is not blind were to > >behold the many bubbles on the Ganges as they are driving along; and he > >should watch them and carefully examine them. After carefully examining > >them, however, they will appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial. > >In exactly the same way does the monk behold all the corporeal phenomena > >... feelings ... perceptions ... mental formations ... states of > >consciousness, whether they be of the past, present or future ... far or > >near. And he watches them and examines them carefully; and after > >carefully examining them, they appear to him empty, unreal and > >unsubstantial." > > > >The 5 groups are compared, respectively, to a lump of froth, a bubble, a > >mirage, a coreless plantain stem, and a conjuring trick (S. XXII, 95). > > > >http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm > ================================== I basically agree with you on this, Rob, but with a slight hedge/disclaimer. Much depends on what one means by "real". I see the Buddha as having, indeed, taught that conventional objects such as trees and chariots have only conventional existence, and that these ultimately are fictions. [I don't think that *thoughts* of such are fictions - they are mental constructs that are experienced, but that is another story, and another debate.] I also see him as having taught that the immediate elements of experience, the (paramattha) dhammas which are direct objects of experience, unmediated by mental construction, are fleeting, insubstantial, impersonal, coreless, conditioned and dependent experiential events/phenomena, and hence not separate and not self-existent entities. But, and here is the hedge/disclaimer, this last does not make these phenomena fully nonexistent. While they may not be "outside objects" - and I, as a radical phenomenalist, in fact believe, from the pragmatic, Occam's razor, perspective, that they are purely experiential phenomena without "external" status - that does not make them "unreal" in the sense of imagined and unobserved. [An aside: Whether or not there actually exist in some sense "external" somethings-or-other underlying experiential phenomena is a moot point, inasmuch as such "somethings" are never directly encountered, and are, in principle, unknowable.] The extremes of existence and nonexistence don't apply. The extremes don't apply to conventionally existent entities, because conventional existence is a shorthand for a complex of observable relationships holding among the actual elements of experience. Even less so do these extremes apply to the direct elements of experience, the various evanescent and insubstantial rupas, cittas,and cetasikas. As in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and as followed up upon by Nagarjuna, these phenomena-events are neither (self-)existent nor nonexistent. The two views of existence and of nonexistence (and of reality and unreality) are extremes, both defective according to the Buddha as well as Nagarjuna who, later on, worked to safeguard the Buddha's Dhamma from incursions from these extremes. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25032 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 5:39am Subject: Hymns, etc. DSG, There was some discussion of hymn-singing and Dhamma recently and I was trying to remember this--just found it while looking for something else: Bhikkhus, there are these five dangers when Dhamma is chanted with a long, singing sound: He is pleased with himself regarding that sound, (= pride) Others are pleased regarding that sound (they have regard for it but not for Dhamma) Householders look down upon him (as music is for those who enjoy sense-pleasures) While trying for accuracy of sound his concentration is broken, (he neglects the meaning of what he is chanting) People coming after fall into views (by emulation) ("saying: Our teachers and preceptors sang it thus" [Commentary] -- a source of both pride and quarreling among later generations of Buddhists). -- Vinaya Pitaka, ii. 108 25033 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 5:50am Subject: Hymns p.s. Sorry, I neglected to credit that last quote. It was from ATI: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel206/chanting.html 25034 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Toby - In a message dated 9/6/03 2:39:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > Hi Howard and Larry, > > H:> Very good! I like what you have to say here. One question: What > about > >thoughts? Where do they fit in? > > > > Here's my understanding of thoughts on the fundamental level that we are > discussing. > > ============================ Very good, Toby! (And Rob M, as well, color-dots notwithstanding! ;-) Thoughts as sa~n~na-marked cittas and cetasikas taken as objects [along, of course, with mind-produced pictures, sounds (especially meaningful sound-sequences), feelings, and emotions] certainly do seem to be pretty much "fill the bill". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25035 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Pali. Hi James, op 05-09-2003 07:59 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > James: Oops...I did it again! ;-) Nina: :-) ;-) 25036 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya4 - *Nina&Larry* - asavas Dear Sarah, op 05-09-2003 08:20 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > For it is whilst he [Bahira] still was hearing Dhamma > from the Teacher that he cleansed the precepts, established vipassana > based upon the concentration of mind thereby acquired, immediately brought > all the asavas to destruction on account of his rapid superknowledge, and > reached arahantship together with the discriminations. N: Here we read about the analytical knowledges or patisambhidas, Larry spoke about the other day. It will come up in Vis. We see that Bahira reached arahatship with the highest distinction: vipassana based on samatha and then the wisdom of the arahat accompanied by the four patisambhidas. Vipassana based on samatha and then the wisdom of the arahat accompanied by the four patisambhidas is not for everybody. And not in this day and age. Nina. 25037 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and defilement. Dear Sarah and Rob M, I was happy to hear about your discussions, but since it was three hours, there surely was more?? I can elaborate somewhat on what you mentioned, but i may repeat what I wrote before. op 05-09-2003 10:49 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Nina, I’m not sure if you can help further. I think Rob finds it very > limited or like a sudden cut-off to say only kamma-patha brings results > and other moments of kamma (cetana) do not even act in this way even in a > very mild form. N: I understand Rob's point. I believe we cannot pinpoint everything, but there are some indications in the Commentaries. Like in the Expositor, about the specific factors which make kamma a completed course so that it can poroduce result in the form of an unhappy rebirth. Recently I translated the Issue of Dhamma on Slandering, and quote again: We read about slandering (Atthasåliní, Book I, Part III, Ch 5 99, 100): ŒSlander¹ means calumnious speech which, by being said to another, reduces to nothing the love which that person, or the speaker bears at his own heart to a third person... The volition of one with a corrupt mind, producing the bodily and vocal effort to sow the seed of discord among others, or to endear oneself to others is termed the volition of calumnious speech. It is a smaller or greater offence, according as the virtue of the person whom he separates is smaller or greater. There are four constituent factors of this crime: (1) Other persons to be divided; (2) the purpose: Œthey will be separated,¹ or the desire to endear oneself to another: ŒI shall become dear and intimate¹; (3) the corresponding effort; (4) the communication. But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not amount to a complete course; it does so only when there is rupture. It is then explained that the sotapanna cannot commit slandering with all factors complete so that it could produce an unhappy rebirth. S: I mentioned in another post than when I raised the topic > with K.Sujin she mentioned that this is why there are different conditions > such as upanissaya and kamma. N: I remember. There must be strong dependence condition so that kamma can produce result. It means not every kamma is strong enough to produce result. S: Also the 3 rounds. N: Yes, she said, what is the use of the three rounds of kamma, of vipaka, of kilesa, if kilesa is the same as kamma. (I just brought it up in the Pali list). I wrote: People react differently to the result they receive. Some people react with kusala citta, others with aversion, with akusala citta. The reason is that people have accumulated different inclinations, different defilements, kilesas. In the commentary it is explained that there are three cycles: the cycle of kamma, the cycle of vipaka and the cycle of kilesa. Kilesa motivates again kamma and this produces again vipaka and this conditions again kilesa, and so we go on and on. Thus the three cycles keep turning around in our lives. If each moment of akusala, and there are countless moments, would be akusala kamma, our outlook on life would be very pessimistic, we would be plagued by guilt and fear. Could we ever laugh again? How stressful our life would be. To use a Howardian expression, I do not buy this. Also Rob K has explained very clearly about the three cycles. Now about kusala: A. Sujin explained that usually kusala citta is kusala kamma, but, when the kusala intention is very weak it is not kamma which can produce a result. For example, one thinks of giving but one does not come to the deed of generosity, because the kusala is too weak. I read Christine's post about the father killing his family. Christine, I understand that you must be shocked because of this drama that happened rather nearby. We should not think in terms of those children got what they deserved. Rather: the cycle of life is dukkha, and nobody can escape dukkha. Even the Buddha could not change kamma and vipaka and the cycle of birth and death. We are all in it. Recently I requoted about the fixedness of natural law, maybe you read it on Pali list: I wrote (in Meanings of dhamma, no 7) about the Fixedness of Law (Dhamma) regarding all things, also quoting from Buddhist Dict by Ven. Nyanatiloka. Conditions take their course, no matter whether there is an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathaagata.> The Buddha taught the way out of dukkha. But he cannot make anybody accept his teachings or have confidence in it. When thinking of the cycle and of dukkha it helps me to accept kamma and vipaka. Nina. Nina. 25038 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and defilement. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/6/03 1:32:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > In the commentary it is explained that there are three cycles: the > cycle of kamma, the cycle of vipaka and the cycle of kilesa. Kilesa > motivates again kamma and this produces again vipaka and this conditions > again kilesa, and so we go on and on. Thus the three cycles keep turning > around in our lives. > If each moment of akusala, and there are countless moments, would be akusala > kamma, our outlook on life would be very pessimistic, we would be plagued by > guilt and fear. Could we ever laugh again? How stressful our life would be. > To use a Howardian expression, I do not buy this. > Also Rob K has explained very clearly about the three cycles. > ========================= I find this matter of a repeating triple of cycle-of-kamma -> cycle-of-vipaka -> cycle-of-kilesa extremely interesting. It seems to be a neat way of describing samsara, and a way that I haven't seen before. I would like to read a bit more about this. Could you give me any references, including pointers to Rob K's exposition and to places it might be found in the Vism or the CMA? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25039 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 1:49pm Subject: Re: The workings of sanna Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" > (rupa) > > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. > +++++++ > Do you have a reference for this. It is different from my > understanding of rupayatanna. I acknowledge that there is another school of thought that uses the analogy of a photograph (an entire scene) coming into focus. I picked the "dot" analogy for two reasons: - It makes more sense to me - Shwe Zan Aung's Introductory Essay to the PTS Abhidhammattha- sangaha (1910) which, I believe is supported by Ledi Sayadaw. Here is the relevant portion of the essay: SZA: Each process is followed, with a brief moment or two of the subconscious continuum intervening, by the process called 'grasping the past' (atitaggahana process), in which there is necessarily a depicting to the imagination of the past object has just perceived, the images alone of the different parts of the rose being present in the mind. These two processes may alternate with each other several hundred thousand times before the synthetic process takes place. The alternation of these two processes may be compared to that of makes and breaks in the connection of an electric dynamo (Ledi Sayadaw cites the ancient and well-known simile of the circle of fire caused by a moving point, to show the persistency of an image). SZA then proceeds to describe the synthesis process (samudaynggahana or samuhaggahana) which is described as grasping of what 'rises up together' or of a 'collective whole'. Metta, Rob M :-) 25040 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > This is pretty much as I see it too (no pun intended). Seems to me, though, > that those processes are continually intersperesed with other sense- and > mind-door processes so that, seemingly, as the (concept of) visual field is > formed other sense-fields are formed (again, seemingly) simultaneously--we > seem to hear the gull as we see it fly--actually countless cittakha.nas, > visual and auditory, (as well as many others, of course) arising and > subsiding WITHIN each field and interspersed, I think, to make up the > picture and the sound (in retrospect). What do you think? Interesting question. As there are billions of these processes in a microsecond, it does *seem* that everything happens simultaneously. What feels right to me is that a stream at a particular door proceeds to a certain level before information from another dooorway is accepted. I suspect that this is linked to the presence of a registration citta. If a citta process does not end with a registration citta, then there is nothing "internal" for the next mind-door citta process to connect to and so a new piece of sense data is processed. If a citta process does end with a registration citta, then the subsequent citta process will automatically take the same object as the previous citta process. This is my speculation. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 25041 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 3:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > I see you have been reading Mathieu Boisvert. I'm understanding the "10 > sa~n~naa" as 10 signs. === Of course, Mathieu Boisvert is a fellow Canadian! I picked up his book in Colombo a couple of years ago, but took some time to get around to reading it. === > In Vism. it says sa~n~naa cannot penetrate the > three general characteristics so I think this means imagining > impermanence and understanding impermanence are different. === Sanna is superficial, it takes panna to penetrate the three general characteristics. You are quite correct that imagining impermanence and understanding impermanence are quite different. Imagining is based on the mind (intellectual) whereas understanding is based on experience. === > > A possible controversy may arise: concentration is the proximate cause > of understanding, "strong imagination" (thirasa~n~naa) is the proximate > case of sati. So the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is a concept (mental > image). Explain that! === I am confused, Larry. The proximate cause of panna is wise attention (yoniso manisakara). Please rephrase the question. Metta, Rob M :-) 25042 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Just on 1st glance, though, the question occurred to > me as what exactly the nature is of the image-block concepts that are mind > created. They are what sort of cetasikas? The objects of sense-door citta processes are visible object, audible object, etc. The first mind-door citta process after a sense- door citta process takes the same object as the previous sense-door citta process. After that, it is concepts all the way. Concepts can range in complexity from very simple (image-blocks) to very complex. The problem is that, outside of deep meditation, we are not aware of concepts until they reach the naming stage, at which point they are already quite complex. Hope this helps and look forward to your comments. Metta, Rob M :-) 25043 From: connie Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 4:13pm Subject: Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Nina, Would you consider putting your funny sign list in the files section of the group? I, for one, would really appreciate a copy and imagine that Sarah and a few others couldn't resist peeking at it. Thank you, connie 25044 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 5:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Rob: "I am confused, Larry. The proximate cause of panna is wise attention (yoniso manisakara). Please rephrase the question." Larry: aHa! I see you have not been keeping up with the Visuddhimagga thread. See Vism. XIV, 7: "its [pa~n~naa) proximate cause is concentration." See CMA for proximate cause of sati is thirasa~n~na; translated there as "strong perception". I see them pointing to the same thing, i.e., sa~n~naa's role in identifying by means of a sign. I translated thirasa~n~naa as "strong imagination" but it might be better to say distinct identity. In some ways this fits in well with the intention behind the concept and reality distinction insofar as the idea is to attend to experience rather than discursive thinking. But in other ways it could be construed as problematic because identity is concept; so concept is the proximate cause of understanding (pa~n~naa). Where does that leave the distinction between concept and reality? I see that CMA says the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is wise attention. What does "wise" mean, "sati"? Larry 25045 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 7:52pm Subject: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi Nina (and anyone interested to comment), Nina: Very important: indispensable for insight. You have to know > what nama is and > what rupa, and be able to distinguish their different characteristics. A > conditio sine qua non for the further development of insight. It is the > first stage of tender insight. ... > We need courage and patience to "define" nama and rupa. We cannot > expect a quick result. (would appreciate any response/comments to questions posed in the following): According to the PTS dictionary: nama in its most primitive form is 'name'; likewise rupa is defined as 'form'; thus name and form. However in other interpretations/definitions and commentary, I see different meanings to define nama and rupa such as: (from access to insight): -nama: Mental phenomena. This term refers to the mental components of the five khandhas... -rupa: Body; physical phenomenon; sense datum. How is it that 'name' has become - mental phenomena ? How is it that 'form' has become - physical phenomena ? How is it that these definitions were implied? Am I understandly/defining correctly that (?): rupa is: objectively existing unconscious physical matter as it truly exists (with or without our conciousness/perception of it). (?) nama is: our mental representation/memory/interpretation/symbol/idea of the percieved rupa through the senses. (???) (my latter definitions, of course, is based on my current assupmtion of how things exist) Corrections / comments will be greatly appreciated. peace and metta, nori 25046 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Sarah, Thanks again for your thoughtful replies. Sarah wrote: ..."but I don't find your qus easy to answer simply." Sorry for the non-specific, vague, open questions. I was just seeking whatever (and any) insights you had to offer - you, having been in Sri Lanka first hand as a Buddhist practitioner. ... again thank you. Sarah wrote: "Pls let us know more about why you consider such a lifestyle as more `conducive to ending of dukkha'." I forgot where I read it; I think it was confucious or Lao-tzu; There was a passage I read which the gist of was something like: you have to be a fool to live somewhere (in a country) where 'the way' does not prevail. (really bad paraphrase, I know.) Of course, to live somewhere means also to be engulfed in the collective conciousness of that region. The dominant beliefs and views of a nation/country/area creates its culture (i.e. its behavior, its way of life), its laws, its feelings/emotions (toward things), its conversations, its media, etc. Thoughts beget like thoughts. It is difficult and painful (not to mention lonely) to maintain individuality somewhere, especially if you are against the grain. It is also inevitable that maintaining constant contact/interaction with a culture will result in some sort of influence. Just as association with the unbeloved is dukkha, so it is with an unbeloved culture and nation (no offense to anyone). I imagined that a Theravada Buddhist dominated country would also form/influence its culture (i.e. its behavior, its way of life) and laws based on its (Theravada Buddhist) views to a great degree, which is more akin to me. I thought that being in the presence of such an influenced culture/peoples would be more conducive to ending dukkha, since the dhamma is contained within it - the prevalent culture (i.e. its behavior, its way of life). If this were the case, you would not have to constantly swim against the current. If this were the case maybe you can learn dhamma just by observing the behavior of others and how they live; simply by being in their presence. The greatest prize being that association with them (in- itself) would not be dukkha. Sincerely, nori > --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Nori, > > > What do you think life would be like dwelling in a forest in Sri > > > Lanka (or any other thera-buddhist dominated country), living off ...snip 25047 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 9:45pm Subject: Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Howard Thanks for coming in here with your usual well-developed comments. I'm pleased to see that we have more in common than not ;-)). For instance, I think we are in agreement that-- - the development of the path is the development of insight/wisdom into the true nature of dhammas, the moment-to-moment phenomena that are the fundamental building blocks of the present moment - this insight/wisdom disperses the ignorance and wrong view that perceives a self existing in a world of people and things. - if the appropriate conditions are in place, this insight/wisdom can arise on ordinary occasions in the course of ordinary life - those conditions include a correct intellectual understanding of dhammas and insight, as set out in the teachings. - for a given individual, the development of insight/wisdom is strongly dependent on the extent to which insight/wisdom has been developed in the past (this is the 'we must start from where we are' factor that you have mentioned on occasion). No argument between us so far, I think ;-)) We may however have some differences as to what exactly is happening at moments of the development of insight. You say-- "... to attempt see, under ordinary circumstances, what *actually* happens moment after moment in one's mindstream is like trying to see the exact appearance of the bumps and pebbles in the roadway as one hurtles down the highway on a moonless, sky-clouded, fog-filled night." I do not see insight as being able to see on a moment-to-moment basis the happenings in one's mindstream, even for one who has attained the final goal let alone at relatively less advanced levels. I believe that such a degree of understanding is the province of a Buddha or the great disciples alone. [In fact, according to the texts, even the the fact of the momentary nature of dhammas does not become apparent *to direct awareness* until an advanced stage -- I would suggest that our perception of the momentary nature of dhammas is in truth an inference drawn from an observation of the fact of changes occurring over a span of mind moments, not because of developed awareness at a moment-to-moment level. But I digress.] What I am saying is that although fundamental phenomena are to be known individually, this does not mean they have to be or can be known in units of a single moment. For example, the dhamma that is visible-object can be known as the object that is being experienced through the eye-door, and as different from the consciousness by which the object is being perceived, without there being the perception of a *mere single moment* of visible-object. The perception occurs over a span of moments. At such moments there is a glimmer of light through the 'cloudiness and murkiness' you mention. Every such glimmer, no matter how weak or rare in occurrence, is so valuable, since it accumulates and becomes a condition (by natural decisive support condition) for another such occurrence in the future. Just as importantly, when visible-object is seen as visible-object and different in nature from the seeing consciousness by which it is being experienced, there is right then and there a breaking down of the 'reification' of a personal self and external objects, without there being any 'attempt' to do so. The necessary effort is inherent in the mind-moment. And also, at those very moments no hindrances arise to cloud the view. The hindrances are not only being suppressed, they are actually being (ever so slightly) eroded. This is what distinguishes the force and effect of a moment of satipatthana/vipassana, no matter how weak or brief, from the force and effect of a moment of samatha even of the level of jhana. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nina & Icaro) - ... In fact, I would say, though you may well disagree, that without a long history of cultivation and without setting up specific helpful conditions, the task is near impossible. This is so, because to attempt see, under ordinary circumstances, what *actually* happens moment after moment in one's mindstream is like trying to see the exact appearance of the bumps and pebbles in the roadway as one hurtles down the highway on a moonless, sky-clouded, fog-filled night. Our minds are mired in reification of personal self and of "external objects", and in the grasping after and pushing away of these fictions - so much so that we don't even know what we are looking at. This, I think, is where the jhanas can play a beneficial role with regard to the arising of mindfulness, clear comprehension, and wisdom. ... With metta, Howard 25048 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) - correction... Rob Ep Delighted to see you back, if only for a brief spell. Please excuse my delay in coming in on this post of yours (nothing has changed during your absence!). --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Sarah! ... Rob: I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness with which they arise. And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a convention, as you say, and not a reality. Jon: One needs to consider what would be 'checking in to the current reality' in terms of the teachings on satipatthana/vipassana. To my reading, looking at something (e.g., that which we call keyboard) and seeing the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have any name or any substantial existence etc, would be a form of thinking about a concept (the concept being that which we call keyboard). Indeed, any mental activity that takes as its starting point a conventional object can only be a kind of thinking with concept as object, and not the direct experience of a current reality. (This is not to suggest that such thinking is necessarily 'wrong' in any sense, just to point out the difference that we need to keep in mind here.) In any event, while one is deconstructing the keyboard there are countless other objects being conceptualised about through the various doorways. One cannot consciously reflect on these other objects at the same time. Do you think that conclusions reached regarding the keyboard would have any carry-over to them? [Looks like we are still going to find lots to talk about. Like I said, no changes ;-))]. Jon 25049 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Mike Just as a matter of interest, by coincidence, I came across an answer to my own question below last night when listening to the talks/discussion held at the Thai Parliament. According to K. Suphee, just as 'anusaya' is used to denote latent unwholesome tendencies that have been accumulated, the term 'aasaya' is used to denote wholesome tendencies that have been accumulated (with 'upanissaya' and 'accaasaya' also used in the texts). PED says for aasaya: "inclination, intention, will, hope; often combined and compared with 'anusaya'". Although both come from the same root 'si' meaning to lie (I think), there is a crucial difference in the manner of lying it seems. The Thai translation for 'anusaya' is 'norn nueng', but I'm not sure of the meaning carried by 'nueng' (hidden, perhaps?). Kom or Nina? Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike ... > These are simply the latent tendencies that make a person act and > react, think or feel etc. as he/she does, and account for an > individual's personality and nature, likes and dislikes etc. I do > not know of any single Pali term carrying this meaning, but there > probably is one (any Pali experts reading this?). ... 25050 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:19pm Subject: visible object "robmoult" wrote::I acknowledge that there is another school of thought that uses the > analogy of a photograph (an entire scene) coming into focus. > _________ Dear RobM, This is just thinking about vanayatana. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing everything within range of the eyes. However if we are looking at for instance seeing a truly lovely Buddha image but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it might seem as though we are seeing the whole. > ___________ > robmoult" wrote:-A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. > > +++++++ +++++++++++++ This is another idea. But where is the evidence in the texts. Do you mean that each time there is seeing only dots are seens? How big are th dots, are they one kalapa- but that is impossible because a kalapa is invisible. ore a large group of kalapas? Is there a set size? At times the visible object is very small, maybe seeing the mole on someone face , at times it can take in a scene , looking at a mountain. This can occur so fast that one might not evn no that seeing had taken place. But no set size that it can only be dots. That is why when there is vipassana nana what is seen is exactly like now except that there is no whole, there is the understanding of the difference between nama and rupa. It seems that we can focus on this or that but actually it is just different processes of cittas arising to do their invariable function. In the Abhidhammasangaha (see Compendium of Philosophy" by PTS, p. 33)and commentary to it. Here it is explained that when distinct recognition of the object occurs; such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. Take the perception of a rose : this is actually an extremely complex series of events the eye-door process, is followed first by a mind-door process (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process. Then comes a process of taking the object as whole (samudayagahika); then a process recognizing the colour (vannasallakkhana); then a process grasping the entity (vatthugahika); then a process recognizing the entity (vatthusallakkhana); then a process grasping the name (namagahika); then a process recognizing the name (namasallakkhana). Nina van Gorkom wrote about this that "The only thing is, we should not think that immediately in the next process comes grasping the object as a whole and the next one recognizing the colour, etc. We cannot count the different processes, too fast. This commentary speaks about processes alternating several hundred thousand times before the synthetic process takes place."" ++++++++++ > +++++++++++++ "robmoult" wrote:I picked the "dot" analogy for two reasons: > - It makes more sense to me > - Shwe Zan Aung's Introductory Essay to the PTS Abhidhammattha- > sangaha (1910) which, I believe is supported by Ledi Sayadaw. > SZA: > Here is the relevant portion of the essay: Each process is followed, with a brief moment or two of the > subconscious continuum intervening, by the process called 'grasping > the past' (atitaggahana process), in which there is necessarily a > depicting to the imagination of the past object has just perceived, > the images alone of the different parts of the rose being present in > the mind. These two processes may alternate with each other several > hundred thousand times before the synthetic process takes place. The > alternation of these two processes may be compared to that of makes > and breaks in the connection of an electric dynamo (Ledi Sayadaw > cites the ancient and well-known simile of the circle of fire caused > by a moving point, to show the persistency of an image). > > SZA then proceeds to describe the synthesis process (samudaynggahana > or samuhaggahana) which is described as grasping of what 'rises up > together' or of a 'collective whole'. ++++++++++++ I read what Shwe Zan Aung said and still couldn't find where he said visible object is a single dot? Can you also show me where Ledi sayadaw said this. RobertK 25051 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sense-door process and mind-door process Dear Rob M, Thank you for your post. See below. op 06-09-2003 00:42 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The eye-door citta process is followed by some bhavanga cittas and > then a mind-door citta process arises, which takes a concept as > object. The object of this first mind-door citta process after the > eye-door citta process is the "mental image" of the visible object. > The characteristic of the visible object (red, blue, etc.) > was "marked" by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the eye-door > citta process. This characteristic is noted by the cetasika sanna in > the cittas of the first mind-door citta process to mark the mental > image (concept) of a coloured dot. N: Just one remark: the first mind-door process cittas after the sense-door process , here eye-door process, do not have a concept as object, they have the same visible object which has just fallen away as object. Nina. 25052 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 according to feelings. Hi Larry, op 06-09-2003 08:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the > kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness,> (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two > of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to > (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is > "accompanied by equanimity". N: Lokiya(mundane) panna and lokuttara panna can be accompanied by happy feeling or by indifferent feeling. As to mundane panna:There are two kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, accompanied by panna associated with somanassa, happy feeling, one is prompted, one is unprompted. There are two kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, accompanied by panna associated with upekkha, indifferent feeling , one is prompted, one is unprompted. As to lokuttara panna: For those who have developed jhana and vipassana there can be lokuttara cittas accompanied by the jhanafactors of the fifferent stages of jhana (there are five stages according to the fivefold method). Each of the four path-consciousnesses (of the four stages of enlightenment) can be accompanied by the factors of the first... up to fourth jhana, and these are associated with happy feeling. Reason: these four jhanas are associated with happy feeling. As to the four Path consciousnesses with the factors of the fifth jhana these are accompanied by equanimity, since the fifth jhana has equanimity, not happy feeling. For those who did not develop jhana, the path-consciousness is accompanied by happy feeling. Nina. 25053 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sanna and vipassana Dear Larry and Rob, Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta can help us here. op 06-09-2003 02:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I see you have been reading Mathieu Boisvert. I'm understanding the "10 > sa~n~naa" as 10 signs. In Vism. it says sa~n~naa cannot penetrate the > three general characteristics so I think this means imagining > impermanence and understanding impermanence are different. > > A possible controversy may arise: concentration is the proximate cause > of understanding, "strong imagination" (thirasa~n~naa) is the proximate > case of sati. So the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is a concept (mental > image). Explain that! N; I quote:< aniccasa~n~nanti aniccaanupassanaaya sahajaatasa~n~na.m. As to the words, perception(sanna) of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. vipassanaa eva vaa esaa asa~n~naapi sa~n~naasiisena sa~n~naati vuttaa. Just insight: although not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. > Also in the Co to the Vibhanga I remember that vipassana is meant, though the word sanna is used. It depends on the context. Nina. 25054 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Icaro op 05-09-2003 22:07 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Don´t need to worry about Velthuis replacements: I > use Norman Pali fonts that replaces the dotted n by > ñ...which is supported by my portuguese ABNT keyboard. > Is not Arana, is Araña... far from!!! N: For Email, letters come over differently, that is why we use Velthuis. replacing the dotted n by > ñ ? I do not understand. the .n, that is, n with a dot underneath, is different from ~n, the Spanish n (on my computer ñ, but not everybody gets this the same). ara.na: removed from. ara~n~na (nt) is: remotedness (same stem), of forest. but it has two: ~n~n. Nina. 25055 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Dear RobK, > > Do you take ruupaayattana to be the entire visual field? Does it arise (and > subside) at once? > > mike Dear Mike, I wrote a reply about this. Visible object is what appears to the eyeconsciousness. If over the years of writing on dsg I have given the idea that any Dhamma lasts then I apologize. RobertK 25056 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Lieber Freund Icaro, Sehr gut, ich bin jetzt auch dorthin gegangen. Es ist alles auf Deutsch. Aber Meditation?? Ich weisz nicht. Welche Art Meditation? Do you prefer German for the Dhamma, or rather French? Do you find Visuddhimagga in English difficult to follow? But Pali is best of all. op 05-09-2003 23:57 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > At last,at this website I will download a full copy of the > Visuddhimagga and of the Abhidhamma Sangaha in German!!!! 25057 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Larry, Rob M., & All, Something is not right here when Vism XIV.7 states that concentration (samaadhi) is the proximate cause of pa~n~naa while B.Bodhi's Guide to §8 (p. 90) of CMA states that wise attention is the proximate cause. I checked the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii and could find nothing in it pertaining to the proximate cause of panna. So I'd like to know where B.Bodhi got the 'yoniso manasikaaro' from. Possibly relevant: in AN X.61, the Buddha states that 'wise attention' is the nutriment of sati-sampaja~n~na. Best wishes, Jim > Rob: "I am confused, Larry. The proximate cause of panna is wise > attention (yoniso manisakara). Please rephrase the question." > > Larry: aHa! I see you have not been keeping up with the Visuddhimagga > thread. See Vism. XIV, 7: "its [pa~n~naa) proximate cause is > concentration." See CMA for proximate cause of sati is thirasa~n~na; > translated there as "strong perception". I see them pointing to the same > thing, i.e., sa~n~naa's role in identifying by means of a sign. I > translated thirasa~n~naa as "strong imagination" but it might be better > to say distinct identity. In some ways this fits in well with the > intention behind the concept and reality distinction insofar as the idea > is to attend to experience rather than discursive thinking. But in other > ways it could be construed as problematic because identity is concept; > so concept is the proximate cause of understanding (pa~n~naa). Where > does that leave the distinction between concept and reality? > > I see that CMA says the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is wise attention. > What does "wise" mean, "sati"? > > Larry 25058 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and defilement. Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: Nina: > > To use a Howardian expression, I do not buy this. ..... S: ;-) ..... > > Also Rob K has explained very clearly about the three cycles. > > > ========================= H: > I find this matter of a repeating triple of cycle-of-kamma -> > cycle-of-vipaka -> cycle-of-kilesa extremely interesting. It seems to be > a neat way of > describing samsara, and a way that I haven't seen before. I would like > to > read a bit more about this. Could you give me any references, including > pointers > to Rob K's exposition and to places it might be found in the Vism or the > CMA? .... S: Please check these posts from UP. I’m in a rush, but I think you’ll find they are mostly RobK’s as mentioned: Rounds (3)- kamma-vatta, vipaka-vatta, kilesa-vatta 1811,2260, 5336, 7444, 8506 CMA: from index - round of existence (va.t.ta) chV111 3,8,10 Vism: from index -round of defilement (lilesa va.t.ta) XV11 298 etc Pls let us hear your further thoughts and reflections after following these leads. Metta, Sarah ===== 25059 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:50pm Subject: New to the Visuddhimagga thread??? Hi Larry, Robs M ‘n Ep and anyone new to the Vism thread, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Larry: aHa! I see you have not been keeping up with the Visuddhimagga > thread. ..... Fair Go Larry! You’re meant to be encouraging them;-) For the extracts posted and discussed so far from the Visuddhimagga, Understanding section, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Almost at the bottom under z-Vism...., you’ll find the links to the extracts themselves followed by the Pali. For Nina’s sub-commentary translations, details given by Jim or other clarifications on difficult points, go to Useful Posts, also in the files section and scroll down to the bottom to Visuddhimagga -Understanding. Remember, it’s never too late to join in, add contributions or ask for clarifications from earlier extracts. We’re all going to be on this thread for a very good long while, so the sooner you join in the better. Metta, Sarah ======== 25060 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Larry, Rob M., & All, > > Something is not right here when Vism XIV.7 states that concentration > (samaadhi) is the proximate cause of pa~n~naa while B.Bodhi's Guide to > §8 (p. 90) of CMA states that wise attention is the proximate cause. I > checked the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii and could find nothing in it > pertaining to the proximate cause of panna. So I'd like to know where > B.Bodhi got the 'yoniso manasikaaro' from. ++++++++++++ Dear Jim, I don't know if this is relevant. In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedalla Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing right understanding into existence.'" RobertK 25061 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sanna and vipassana Hi Nina, Would you say contemplation/mindfulness (anupassana) is applied thought and sustained thought (vitakka vicaara)? Larry --------------------- N; I quote:< aniccasa~n~nanti aniccaanupassanaaya sahajaatasa~n~na.m. As to the words, perception(sanna) of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. vipassanaa eva vaa esaa asa~n~naapi sa~n~naasiisena sa~n~naati vuttaa. Just insight: although not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. > Also in the Co to the Vibhanga I remember that vipassana is meant, though the word sanna is used. It depends on the context. Nina. 25062 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > The problem is that, outside of deep meditation, we > are not aware of concepts until they reach the naming stage, at > which point they are already quite complex. > ++++++++++++ Dear Robm, Could you define 'deep meditation'? Robertk 25063 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Nina, Connie, Icaro & A.Paul, --- nina van gorkom wrote: I: > > Dhammasangani, fourth book - Atthakathakhandam, > > last stanca: > > > > "1616. Katame dhamma arana? Cattusu bhumisu kusalam, > > cattusu bhumisu vipako, tisu bhumisu kiriyabyakatam, > > RUPA?CA, nibbana?ca? ime dhamma arana." >N: arana should be spelled: ara.na (this is Velthuis, a dot under the > n, > which makes a lot of difference). It means: far from, away from. > The signs coming over on computer as ? also need replacement by > Velthuis. It > is essential to have thos correct, we may confuse cases. . uu for the > long > u, aa for the long a. Shall I give you the whole list? I have now > completed > my funny sign list with the Velthuis equivalents. > You know this one: 3/4 is : aa. 1/2 is : .m . .... Perhaps you would kindly post your complete list Nina with a couple of lines of explanation at the top. Then as Connie suggests, we can add it in the UP under Pali where there are a couple of other useful signpost posts by Christine & others. I was so lazy after Jim’s kind suggestions. I did nothing. Now I’m glad, because you’ve done all the work for me;-) Icaro, I promise that when I get Nina’s code-breaker, the first thing I’ll do is to download the entire Dhammasangani-Pali and convert the symbols into velthius characters. Then I’ll be ready for our line by line study of this first Abhidhamma text (Pali-English) when you get back from boot-camp. Hopefully, Howard will be interested to join in then as well. Connie, I’m glad to see your interest in the code-breaker too. Is it because you have a mac computer as well? I thought it was only a problem for mac people. A.Paul & Icaro, talking of funny symbols and studying texts in many languages, we have a copy of CMA in Chinese characters (thanks to RobM again) to pass on to A.Paul. It’s a beautiful looking book and they seem to be published in Penang. Icaro, let me know if you’d like the address to ask for a copy ;-) Paul, pls contact Jon or me off-list to arrange meeting/pick-up. Metta, Sarah ====== 25064 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi Nina, Could you explain or give an example that illustrates how or why understanding is accompanied by joy or equanimity (pleasant mental feeling and neutral mental feeling)? Why isn't understanding accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling? Larry ------------- "So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity." 25065 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:29pm Subject: A couple of questions Dear Group, I'm working through some old Retreat tapes from my first teacher of meditation... In a Dhamma Talk on the six sense fields he mentions that though all the fields are radically different, they all have one thing in common. He doesn't give the answer - I think we were all supposed to discern during the Practice just what that was. At the moment, he is out of contact, so I am unable to ask. Is the answer something so simple that I am overlooking it? Is it the idea that it is a 'self' who experiences all incoming sense data? Is Upekkha (equanimity) also the ability to see any visible object (pleasant or unpleasant)with no emotional reaction at all? Or would there be a different term. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 25066 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions Hi Christine I suspect that your teacher is referring to the mind as the thing that all six sense fields have in common. "They all meet there." As far as Upekka is concerned... overcoming emotions makes sense to me... at least overcoming any negative emotions. Perhaps overcoming impurities is some pure, blissful form of emotion associated with Upekka, but I would think that what we normally take as emotions are suppressed. TG In a message dated 9/6/2003 11:32:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > I'm working through some old Retreat tapes from my first teacher of > meditation... In a Dhamma Talk on the six sense fields he mentions > that though all the fields are radically different, they all have one > thing in common. He doesn't give the answer - I think we were all > supposed to discern during the Practice just what that was. At the > moment, he is out of contact, so I am unable to ask. > Is the answer something so simple that I am overlooking it? Is it > the idea that it is a 'self' who experiences all incoming sense > data? > Is Upekkha (equanimity) also the ability to see any visible object > (pleasant or unpleasant)with no emotional reaction at all? Or would > there be a different term. > > metta and peace, > Christine > 25067 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Jim, Thanks for this info. I was hoping someone would look it up. I think someone (Sarah?) discussed wise attention sometime back but I have forgotten what was said. Larry ----------------- Jim: "I checked the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii and could find nothing in it pertaining to the proximate cause of panna." 25068 From: Antony Woods Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:00am Subject: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hello Christine and all, The following article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is relevant here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/karma.html Karma, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (1996; 8k/2pp.) This short introductory essay explains the nature of karma (Pali: kamma), or willful action. The process of karma is a complex interplay between the fruits of our past actions (over which we have no control in the present) and the choices we make in the present moment; it is not a convenient justification for the misfortune of others ("Oh, it's just their karma!"). "In the eyes of most Americans, karma functions like fate -- bad fate, at that: an inexplicable, unchangeable force coming out of our past, for which we are somehow vaguely responsible and powerless to fight. "I guess it's just my karma," I've heard people sigh when bad fortune strikes with such force that they see no alternative to resigned acceptance. The fatalism implicit in this statement is one reason why so many of us are repelled by the concept of karma, for it sounds like the kind of callous myth-making that can justify almost any kind of suffering or injustice in the status quo: "If he's poor, it's because of his karma." "If she's been raped, it's because of her karma." From this it seems a short step to saying that he or she deserves to suffer, and so doesn't deserve our help." He goes on to explain that "the early Buddhist concept (of kamma) was not fatalistic at all.... So, instead of promoting resigned powerlessness, the early Buddhist notion of karma focused on the liberating potential of what the mind is doing with every moment." Dr Thynn Thynn from Burma gave an Abhidhamma workshop in 1999 in Sydney and I asked some questions about kamma. She said that when someone was suffering and could be helped, compassion was emphasised rather than the law of kamma. She agreed with my point that the teaching of kamma is a "skillful means" taught to encourage the cultivation of virtue in the present moment. We do not exist as separate selves that can step out of the living process in order to comment on it (such as commenting/speculating on someone's past kamma - such thoughts themselves are making new mental kamma). And the Buddha called kamma an "imponderable" that thinking too much about could drive you crazy. The Buddha was not a computer who would always satisfy curiosity about kamma by providing facts. He was only concerned with ending suffering. Antony. 25069 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. Hi Jon, > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:00 PM > the meaning carried by 'nueng' (hidden, perhaps?). Kom or Nina? > According to the dictionary, neung means: - in continuation - related - things that are related / closed to one another Non neung, by the words only, mean lying latent, sleeping still, but in continuation.... kom 25070 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions Hello TG, I also wondered if it could be mind, even though mind is one of the fields (or doors) itself. I also wondered if the thing they have in common is that input of data can't be prevented for long, while we are alive. I can close my eyes and block my ears for a long time, refuse to eat or drink for days, not breath for a minute or two, stop thoughts for even less and do nothing at all to numb my body. Interesting about upekkha - one who has entered the third jhana is described as experiencing in his person that feeling of which the Noble Ones say, 'Happy lives the man of equanimity and attentive mind'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > > I suspect that your teacher is referring to the mind as the thing that all > six sense fields have in common. "They all meet there." > > As far as Upekka is concerned... overcoming emotions makes sense to me... at > least overcoming any negative emotions. Perhaps overcoming impurities is some > pure, blissful form of emotion associated with Upekka, but I would think that > what we normally take as emotions are suppressed. > > TG 25071 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hello Antony, Thank you for your thoughts and the link. Interesting that Thanissaro sees it including free-will ... I am really wrestling with this matter, I seem to be able to intellectually accept most of the Teachings, even see all beings, including well babies, as 'functionally unified combinations of the 5 aggregates'. But murdered babies are another matter. Suddenly the Teachings revert to being words on paper. I really appreciate your post Antony, lovely to hear from you again. I like Dr. Thynn Thynn's encouragement to feel compassion, which I do feel for the mother. The babes aroused intense anger. But, then again, the compassion and the anger came by themselves and are nothing to do with being buddhist, or christian or kalathumpian. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" 25072 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:56am Subject: the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Larry, Jim, Robs M&K & All, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jim, > Thanks for this info. I was hoping someone would look it up. I think someone (Sarah?) discussed wise attention sometime back but I have forgotten what was said.< ..... S: I’m not sure if you’re referring to general discussions on wise attention in order to understand the teachings or specifically on pada.t.thaana (proximate cause) discussions. I’ll refer back to a few on both. RobM will be able to give you other specific examples of wise attention as proximate cause. There have been many suttas cited referring to the importance of wise attention. Some can be found under ‘Considering, listening....’ in UP. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Jon quoted from the Kitagiri Sutta, MN70 a long time back: >MLDB translation (p. 582) 22. "Bhikkhus, I do not say that final knowledge is achieved all at once. On the contrary, final knowledge is achieved by gradual training, by gradual practice, by gradual progress. 23. "And how does there come to be gradual training, gradual practice, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays respect to him, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma he memorises it; he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the [mental] body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom."< end quote> ..... RobK quoted ‘The Peg’ which is also relevant to the decline of the sasana thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6569 The last part reads: >"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." The commentary notes that this means deep teachings such as those dealing with emptiness(sunnatapatisamyutta), explaining mere phenomena devoid of a being (sattasunnata-dhammamattam eva pakasaka) ***** > ----------------- > Jim: "I checked the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii and could find nothing in > it pertaining to the proximate cause of panna." ..... Jon looked and said he couldn’t find it either. As a reminder, we’re talking about these lines from Vism (which I found easily in the file;-)): Vism.EngPali.XIV, 7 7 “'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) its proximate cause is concentration.” 7.”``samaahito yathaabhuuta.m jaanaati passatii''ti (a0 ni0 3.10.2) vacanato pana samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana.m.” ***** We discussed pada.t.thaana.m (proximate cause/immediate occasion/footing) before in other contexts however. I’ll give some links and relevant(I hope) quotes I gave before from The Netti-ppakara.na’m (The Guide, PTS) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12994.html I concluded that: “Actually, reviewing these references I gave before and then checking a few more afterwards, I’m not sure how rigidly we should view poximate causes and there may be variants in different contexts perhaps.” .... "Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak of characteristics, etc, their mutual difference should be understood in this wise." Atthasalini transl PTS p84 ***** In this post, the Netti reference (167)p.49 also mentions concentration as the footing (pada.t.thaana) for wisdom but ends by saying all kinds of condition are a ‘footing’. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m13072.html " Concentration is the footing for knowing and seeing how(things) are. Knowing and seeing how (things) are is the footing for dispassion. Dispassion is the footing for fading of lust. Fading of lust is the footing for deliverance. Deliverance is the footing for knowing and seeing of deliverance. In this way all kinds of general-support, all kinds of conditions, are a footing." ***** http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12376.html I mentioned that pada.t.thaana literally means 'footprint' from pada-foot. " 'Investigate yourselves, launch out' are the footing for energy. (The words) 'Devote yourselves in the Enlightened One's Dispensation' are the footing for concentration. (The words) 'Scatter the armies of Mortality as does an elephant a hut of reeds' are the footing for understanding...."(Netti, 40 p65 in transl) ..... Also under the "Mode of conveying Footings"(Netti, 104 p140 in transl): 'Giving right view first place': this is the footing for insight. 'Through knowing rise and fall: this is the footing for the plane of seeing (as the path of Stream Entry). 'Transcending drowsing and lethargy a bhikkhu may': this is the footing for energy. 'Abandon all bad destinations': this is the footing for keeping in being(as the attainment of the three higher paths)." ***** Apologies for length. I had planned to just give a few links;-) Nina and RobM have also given a lot of consideration to proximate causes and may have other comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 25073 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 6:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. Hi Kom (Mike & Icaro), Good to see you around. I hope others find qus for you too;-) --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > According to the dictionary, neung means: > - in continuation > - related > - things that are related / closed to one another > > Non neung, by the words only, mean lying latent, sleeping still, but in > continuation.... ..... While you're giving Thai lessons (Icaro, hope you're taking notes;-)), what is the Thai word K.Sujin uses for accumulations in general, as when she says 'it's his/her accumulations' in English? Is the Thai word used in ordinary conversation and does it have any Pali equivalent? I thought this might bear on Mike's qu. Metta, Sarah ===== 25074 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammadaana Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > DSG, > > I felt the way Harry Potter must feel when Hedwig arrives--a big white > 'Royal Mail' bag was propped against my door when I >got home, [...] .... Many thx for your kind note of appreciation. I had to explain to Jon who Hedwig is (Harry Potter’s owl which delivers mail and other goodies for the HP ignorant members);-) .... [...] > Do you compare the Exposition with BB's CMA? .... The Exposition is pretty new for us too. I don’t think I have any rules for use;-) When you want to see what BB’s guide notes are based on or read the direct translation of the commentary, it’s very useful - like just now for checking about proximate cause. You could use the Pali with it perhaps?? .... > There's more here than I can hope to digest in what's left of this > lifetime--thanks a million. .... ;-) It’s true - there’s a lot to digest, but we can all continue to give each other reminders and discuss difficult points. When I read any of these texts, I like to remember that the value is only in assisting the understanding [of the realities] at this very moment. with metta, Sarah (& Jon) ============= 25075 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Dear Robert K., (and Larry) Thanks for your reference which reminded me of the four factors conducive to the growth of wisdom. I've been searching the CSCD texts for a reference to back up what B. Bodhi had in his note but haven't come up with anything so far. The commentary (p. 14) to Pa.tisambhidhaamagga has samaadhi as the proximate cause of panna and it is the same in the Abhidhammaavataara (verse 1180). Interestingly, Atthasaalinii (p. 63) has 'wise attention' as the proximate cause of 'kusala' (see Expositor, p. 84 'rational attention'). Will keep looking and if I or no one else can find a reference, perhaps Sarah can ask B. Bodhi himself for it. Jim << Dear Jim, I don't know if this is relevant. In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedalla Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing right understanding into existence.'" RobertK >> 25076 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 7:35am Subject: Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living [just a quick question] Hi Nori, You are right that associating with the wise conduces to development of wisdom and associating with fools conduces to development of foolishness. But I have a question... You write: "It is difficult and painful (not to mention lonely) to maintain individuality somewhere, especially if you are against the grain." --> Dan: I'm wondering what you mean when you say 'individuality'. And why would this be something that one would want to maintain? 25077 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:24am Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. Hi Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:11 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. > While you're giving Thai lessons (Icaro, hope you're taking notes;-)), > what is the Thai word K.Sujin uses for accumulations in general, as when > she says 'it's his/her accumulations' in English? Is the Thai word used in > ordinary conversation and does it have any Pali equivalent? > Sasom - accumulate Karn Sasom - accumulation The noun is a commonly used word among some buddhists, where as the verb is a very common word among all population. I don't think this is rooted in pali, but I could be wrong... The other word which is used, but not in exactly the same way, nisay, means habit, and this is commonly used among all population. The word upa-nisay is also used, more in writing. This one you can guess: they come from nisaya, and upa-nisaya. Pakatupa-nisaya is not used, but pakati is a common word meaning normally. kom 25078 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:23 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > Dear RobK, > > > > Do you take ruupaayattana to be the entire visual field? Does it > arise (and > > subside) at once? > > > > mike > Dear Mike, > I wrote a reply about this. Visible object is what appears to the > eyeconsciousness. Got it, thanks-- > If over the years of writing on dsg I have given > the idea that any Dhamma lasts then I apologize. Certainly not that I recall! mike 25079 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: robmoult To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna > Hi Mike, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > This is pretty much as I see it too (no pun intended). Seems to > me, though, > > that those processes are continually intersperesed with other > sense- and > > mind-door processes so that, seemingly, as the (concept of) visual > field is > > formed other sense-fields are formed (again, seemingly) > simultaneously--we > > seem to hear the gull as we see it fly--actually countless > cittakha.nas, > > visual and auditory, (as well as many others, of course) arising > and > > subsiding WITHIN each field and interspersed, I think, to make up > the > > picture and the sound (in retrospect). What do you think? > > Interesting question. As there are billions of these processes in a > microsecond, it does *seem* that everything happens simultaneously. > > What feels right to me is that a stream at a particular door > proceeds to a certain level before information from another dooorway > is accepted. I suspect that this is linked to the presence of a > registration citta. If a citta process does not end with a > registration citta, then there is nothing "internal" for the next > mind-door citta process to connect to and so a new piece of sense > data is processed. If a citta process does end with a registration > citta, then the subsequent citta process will automatically take the > same object as the previous citta process. > > This is my speculation. Comments? This makes good sense to me, on first reading at least. Would my question make more sense if I'd written 'cittaviithis' rather than 'cittakha.nas'? Thanks for the able assistance. mike 25080 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammadaana Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:31 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammadaana > "...When I read any of > these texts, I like to remember that the value is only in assisting the > understanding [of the realities] at this very moment. Of course--thanks as always for the reminder. mike 25081 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. > ...According to K. Suphee, just as 'anusaya' is used to denote latent > unwholesome tendencies that have been accumulated, the term 'aasaya' > is used to denote wholesome tendencies that have been accumulated > (with 'upanissaya' and 'accaasaya' also used in the texts). > > PED says for aasaya: "inclination, intention, will, hope; often > combined and compared with 'anusaya'...". Interesting, I've run across 'upanissaya' before but not 'accaasaya' or 'aasaya'--interesting and useful new terms, I think, for putting together the 'accumulations' puzzle. Thanks, mike 25082 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Hi, Jon - We are *very* close. In a message dated 9/7/03 12:47:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Thanks for coming in here with your usual well-developed comments. > I'm pleased to see that we have more in common than not ;-)). For > instance, I think we are in agreement that-- > > - the development of the path is the development of insight/wisdom > into the true nature of dhammas, the moment-to-moment phenomena that > are the fundamental building blocks of the present moment > - this insight/wisdom disperses the ignorance and wrong view that > perceives a self existing in a world of people and things. > - if the appropriate conditions are in place, this insight/wisdom > can arise on ordinary occasions in the course of ordinary life > - those conditions include a correct intellectual understanding of > dhammas and insight, as set out in the teachings. > - for a given individual, the development of insight/wisdom is > strongly dependent on the extent to which insight/wisdom has been > developed in the past (this is the 'we must start from where we are' > factor that you have mentioned on occasion). > > No argument between us so far, I think ;-)) > --------------------------------------------- Howard: None. ---------------------------------------------- > > We may however have some differences as to what exactly is happening > at moments of the development of insight. You say-- > "... to attempt see, under ordinary circumstances, what *actually* > happens moment after moment in one's mindstream is like trying to see > the exact appearance of the bumps and pebbles in the roadway as one > hurtles down the highway on a moonless, sky-clouded, fog-filled > night." > > I do not see insight as being able to see on a moment-to-moment basis > the happenings in one's mindstream, even for one who has attained the > final goal let alone at relatively less advanced levels. I believe > that such a degree of understanding is the province of a Buddha or > the great disciples alone. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of course I don't know. What I believe, however, is that there is no difference between the enlightenment of a Buddha and any other arahant. Now, whether an "ordinary" arahant can only discern *groups* of dhammas (which, in fact would only be concepts), and the discerning of individual dhammas and their features is the province solely of Buddhas, with their perfection of wisdom, I certainly don't know .. but I would doubt it. ------------------------------------------------- > > [In fact, according to the texts, even the the fact of the momentary > nature of dhammas does not become apparent *to direct awareness* > until an advanced stage -- I would suggest that our perception of the > momentary nature of dhammas is in truth an inference drawn from an > observation of the fact of changes occurring over a span of mind > moments, not because of developed awareness at a moment-to-moment > level. But I digress.] > > What I am saying is that although fundamental phenomena are to be > known individually, this does not mean they have to be or can be > known in units of a single moment. For example, the dhamma that is > visible-object can be known as the object that is being experienced > through the eye-door, and as different from the consciousness by > which the object is being perceived, without there being the > perception of a *mere single moment* of visible-object. The > perception occurs over a span of moments. At such moments there is a > glimmer of light through the 'cloudiness and murkiness' you mention. > Every such glimmer, no matter how weak or rare in occurrence, is so > valuable, since it accumulates and becomes a condition (by natural > decisive support condition) for another such occurrence in the > future. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I suspect this is quite so .. at all stages less than arahant. [BTW, if you are correct, then the Mahayanists know what they are talking about when they say that the goal of the "hinayanists" is a lesser one.] ------------------------------------------------- > > Just as importantly, when visible-object is seen as visible-object > and different in nature from the seeing consciousness by which it is > being experienced, there is right then and there a breaking down of > the 'reification' of a personal self and external objects, without > there being any 'attempt' to do so. The necessary effort is inherent > in the mind-moment. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, for sure! There is no successful "attempting" to see these things so far as I can tell. The only successful attempting is the ongoing effort to engage in study, contemplation, guarding the senses, calming the mind through samatha technique, and ongoing mindfulness as possible - that is, continued cultivation, preparing the field so that seeds can sprout when conditions are right. ----------------------------------------------------- > > And also, at those very moments no hindrances arise to cloud the > view. The hindrances are not only being suppressed, they are > actually being (ever so slightly) eroded. This is what distinguishes > the force and effect of a moment of satipatthana/vipassana, no matter > how weak or brief, from the force and effect of a moment of samatha > even of the level of jhana. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt, Jon. A moment of insight is like turning on the light in a da rkened convention meeting room. It does help, however, if when the light is turned on, the air filtration system has already temporarily cleared out all the cigar smoke. -------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25083 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and defilement. Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/7/03 1:40:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S: Please check these posts from UP. I’m in a rush, but I think you’ll > find they are mostly RobK’s as mentioned: > > =========================== Thanks very much, Sarah. I will look over all the references you give. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25084 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions Hi Christine I think we could find many things that the six senses share but my recollection is that there is a specific sutta the talks to this issue and it points to mind. Its possible I'm remembering wrong but I think that's right. The Sutta is probably either in Majjhima or Samyutta. I believe its the one that talks about 6 different animals being tied to the same stake and they all have to come to rest there. (The stake being the mind obviously.) I was also reading Path of Discrimination this morning about came across an interesting passage that talk about 8 faculties that arise as "conascent equipment" at the time the mind experiences the 4 Path and 4 Fruition moments. Joy was one of those faculties. I've got to think that Upekka is at its max during fruition moments and apparantly joy is present. Whether we want to consider this type of "spiritual" joy as an emotion or not depends on how we want to define emotion I suppose. It seems to me, though, that the vast majority of emotions and what society would normally think of as emotions are overcome during Upekka. Path of Discrimination, Pg. 117 -- 120 TG 25085 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 11:50am Subject: subco Vis 8, continuation Hi Larry, The Tiika is silent on Vis. 11, 12 and 13. But in no 8, it elaborates on several points. Also on the plane of seeing and of development, as you find in Vis. XIV, 13. Therefore I just continue with Tiika, no 8. These two planes refer to lokuttara panna. And see further explanations after my translation. I wait for you with reference to Vis Ch XXII, § 127 (more on development), because I do not have this online. Subco 8, continuation: naamaruupavavatthaanavasenaati naamavavatthaanavasena, ³Because of the defining of mental phenomena and physical phenomena², this means, because of the defining of mental phenomena, ruupavavatthaanavasena ca. and because of the defining of physical phenomena. pa.thama.m nibbaanadassanato dassana~nca, nissayabhaavato sampayuttaa dhammaa bhavanti ettha, And ³seeing², because of seeing nibbana for the first time; the associated realities * exist here, because of the nature of dependance, sayampi vaa bhavati uppajjati na nibbaana.m viya apaatubhaavanti bhuumi caati dassanabhuumi, pa.thamamaggo. or it exists and arises also by itself, unlike nibbana which does not come into manifestation; and thus it is soil (or plane), the plane of seeing, namely, the first Path. sesamaggattaya.m pana yasmaa pa.thamamaggena di.t.thasmi.myeva dhamme bhaavanaavasena uppajjati, However, understanding belonging to the remaining Paths, arises because of developing with regard to what was only seen by the first Path. na adi.t.thapubba.m ki~nci passati, tasmaa bhaavanaa ca yathaavuttenatthena bhuumi caati bhaavanaabhuumi. It does not see anything that was not seen before, and thus, it is development and soil in the aforesaid meaning, namely, the plane of development. tattha pa~n~naa dassanabhuumibhaavanaabhuumivasena duvidhaati vuttaa. Here understanding is called twofold because it is the plane of seeing and the plane of development. **** English: ³Because of the defining of mental phenomena and physical phenomena², this means, because of the defining of mental phenomena, and because of the defining of physical phenomena. And ³seeing², because of seeing nibbana for the first time; the associated realities * exist here, because of the nature of dependance, or it exists and arises also by itself, unlike nibbana which does not come into manifestation; and thus it is soil (or plane), the plane of seeing, namely, the first Path. However, understanding belonging to the remaining Paths, arises because of developing with regard to what was only seen by the first Path. It does not see anything that was not seen before, and thus, it is development and soil in the aforesaid meaning, namely, the plane of development. Here understanding is called twofold because it is the plane of seeing and the plane of development. ****** * The cetasikas which accompany supermundane understanding. This understanding is bhuumi or soil: see explanation below. N: Bhuumi can mean plane of existence (hell, heaven, etc.), or plane of citta. When it is plane of citta, there are four bhuumis: cittas of the sense-sphere, of material jhaan, of immaterial jhaana and lokuttara, supermundane. The Expositor (II, 2i4, p. 291) explains the word bhuumi, translated as soil: <... in such phrases as Œin the pleasurable bhuumi in the realm of sense-desire¹ a state of consciousness [citta] is called bhuumi. But here the fruition of the religious life is intended; it is called bhuumi because it is the ground (or soil) for associated states, which are dependent on it. Or it is so called, because, although it transcends the world, it itself arises, unlike nibbaana, the unmanifested. ...> It is lokuttara dhamma but it is conditioned, it arises, unlike nibbaana which is unconditioned and does not arise. We read in the ³Guide², Netti, p. 17, footnote: We see here a different translation of bhaavanaa: keeping in being instead of development. Nina. ***** 25086 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Connie, I thought of that, but my computer will only transmit in with ?? Computers behave like that. It will not work in a file, because of the coding. Do you have a list of Velthuis spelling, that is, computer spelling? It is only a small list. I suggest: go to Tipitka org http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html. Download just a few paras of Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. In the middle is Suttanta, scroll down Majjhimapannaasa, II, Bhikkuvagga, second sutta. If you remember that: 3/4 = Aa. Then: + and _ underneath is aa, 1/2 is: .m, 1/4 is: .l, it is not difficult to find the place. You could download into your document until the red: k'o nu ajja. I give you the Velthuis equivalent so that you can go to work. It is easy. 2. mahaaraahulovaadasutta.m 113. eva.m me suta.m -- eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa saavatthiya.m viharati jetavane anaathapi.n.dikassa aaraame. atha kho bhagavaa pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya saavatthi.m pi.n.daaya paavisi. aayasmaapi kho raahulo pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya bhagavanta.m pi.t.thito pi.t.thito anubandhi. atha kho bhagavaa apaloketvaa aayasmanta.m raahula.m aamantesi -- ``ya.m ki~nci, raahula, ruupa.m -- Now here you have got them all. I can indicate which word and which line if you like. You make your own list on your doc. and keep it handy. Each new text you want to download you can begin to use your command: search and replace all, pasting and copying, but there are not many signs. Easy to do. Yes, as Icaro said, they have Visuddhimagga, under anna (to the right side). I am always disinclined to go to a Web, but Icaro, in his enthusiasm, pushed me up to go. We shall surely miss him. By the way,I cannot get enough of the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. So let me know how things went and what we can do further. Nina. op 07-09-2003 01:13 schreef connie op nichicon@h...: > Dear Nina, > Would you consider putting your funny sign list in the files section of > the group? I, for one, would really appreciate a copy and imagine that > Sarah and a few others couldn't resist peeking at it. 25087 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Lieber Freundin Nina: ----------------------------------------------------- Nina:Sehr gut, ich bin jetzt auch dorthin gegangen. > Es ist alles auf Deutsch. Aber Meditation?? Ich > weisz nicht. Welche Art > Meditation? > Do you prefer German for the Dhamma, or rather > French? Do you find > Visuddhimagga in English difficult to follow? But > Pali is best of all. ----------------------------------------------------- Sehr gut! Ich spreche nur ein Wenig Deutsch... das ist immer dasselbe theater: darf ich mich vorstellen ? Mein name ist Ícaro, Ich bin Brazillien, usw. As a matter of fact, I do prefer English or French when available. I am just beginning with the Duroseille´s Pali grammar: The Dhammasangani is now much more easy to read - it´s just opening itself like a flower for me... but as I´ve said before, Buddhaghosa´s Baroque Pali is still a little beyond my forces! But I will reach the other shore of this question! I am taking my own german resources, refreshing my memories with a little grammar, etc But, since you mention French... are there versions of the Visuddhimagga in this language online ? Mettaya, Ícaro > op 05-09-2003 23:57 schreef icarofranca op > icarofranca@y...: > > > At last,at this website I will download a full > copy of the > > Visuddhimagga and of the Abhidhamma Sangaha in > German!!!! ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25088 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Sarah: --------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" A.Paul & Icaro, talking of funny symbols and > studying texts in many > languages, we have a copy of CMA in Chinese > characters (thanks to RobM > again) to pass on to A.Paul. It’s a beautiful > looking book and they seem > to be published in Penang. Icaro, let me know if > you’d like the address to > ask for a copy ;-) Paul, pls contact Jon or me > off-list to arrange > meeting/pick-up." ---------------------------------------------------- I am interested, Sarah!!! Please do it as soon as possible, even if I can´t be able to reply from October to next January!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25089 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi all, Here is some background info which may help in understanding this paragraph. It may not be 100% correct. It is pieced together from bits and pieces in CMA and my own thoughts. First, there is profitable (kusala), unprofitable, resultant, and functional consciousness. Profitable and unprofitable consciousnesses are willful, cause kamma, and result in resultant consciousness. Functional consciousness is nether willful nor resultant but it does function, cause things to happen. The profit of profitable consciousness is pleasant or desirable states. There are 4 kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness: 2 with joy, 2 with equanimity. The 2 with joy are prompted and unprompted; the 2 with equanimity are also prompted and unprompted. "Prompted" means cued by an "other". This paragraph is dealing with three broad categories of consciousness: spheres, jhanas, and paths. In all three consciousness is categorized according to its object and mental factors (cetasika). Each category has different levels. There are 4 spheres, 5 levels of jhana (in this way of organizing them), and 4 levels of path consciousness. The 4 spheres are: sense sphere, fine material sphere, immaterial sphere, and supramundane sphere. The sense sphere is ordinary consciousness with nama/rupa objects. The fine material sphere is the 5 levels of jhana consciousness. The immaterial sphere is the fifth level of jhana divided into 4 more levels with a different kind of object. The supramundane (lokuttara) sphere is the 4 path consciousnesses with nibbana as object. I think the reason fine material sphere is so called is because there is no consciousness of body. The object of jhana is the imagination of a rupa, usually visual, in a very general, non-specific sense, often enhanced by general evocative concepts such as "great", "beautiful", or "foul". Jhana itself is characterized by factors. These factors determine the level of jhana and I think it could be said that jhana is nothing more than consciousness with these factors and this kind of object. In the fine material sphere the levels according to factors are: 1. initial application & sustained application (thinking about), delight, joy, and one-pointedness. 2. sustained application, delight, joy, and one-pointedness. 3. delight, joy, and one-pointedness. 4. joy and one-pointedness. 5. equanimity and one pointedness. Notice that when combined with the 4 path consciousnesses you get 4 X4 with joy = 16 with joy and 4 X 1 with equanimity = 4 with equanimity. In the immaterial sphere the object changes from the imagination of a general visual rupa to 4 successive stages of the base or background of, first, the imagination, then the background of each succeeding background: infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, nether perception nor non perception. I don't know why these are not included in the tabulations of this paragraph. Nina??? The 4 path consciousnesses are divided into 4 path consciousnesses and 4 fruition consciousnesses. All these have nibbana as object. I don't know if nibbana can be an object of jhana but the 8 path consciousnesses may or may not be associated with jhana. They are all associated with understanding (pa~n~naa). The 4 path conciousnesses themselves are 4 one time events that mark the permanent cessation of various forms of grasping. The fruition consciousnesses can occur many or a few times throughout the subsequent life. What ceases determines the level of path: stream enterer, once returner, non-returner, arahant. The progression is from gross to subtle. If you have made it this far, here is the paragraph, good luck: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to sixteen (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is "accompanied by equanimity". So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity. (5.) 'I.e. the four paths with the first jhana and those with the second, third, and fourth, out of the five' (Pm. 434). Larry 25090 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Sarah, I just like to add that 'the four truths' is considered an alternative proximate cause of wisdom (catusaccapada.t.thaana) to the more usual samaadhipada.t.thaana according to some texts. References: Sv-p.t I 92, Cp-a 281. From what I've seen so far I think B. Bodhi's 'wise attention' is probably not supported by the texts. However, there is no problem in seeing it as a necessary condition for wisdom. I agree with the Atthasalini (p.63) that 'wise attention' is the (general) proximate cause of any wholesome state including those accompanied by knowledge or wisdom. Thanks for the quote from The Guide (Netti) which I had overlooked. Jim p.s. Yesterday, I got swarmed by some very nasty bees or wasps just outside of my cottage and got stung twice. I also got stung two weeks ago and I had up until then only been stung once in my life. I think there may be a nest nearby or under the cottage (worst case scenario) and I just hate the thought of having to deal with this problem, any suggestions? Never had a bee problem here before. Last year it was the problem with a large tree falling on my neighbour's house and the well going dry -- almost both at the same time. Just can't seem to get through a year without something bad happening in my forest paradise . > Hi Larry, Jim, Robs M&K & All, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jim, > > > Thanks for this info. I was hoping someone would look it up. I think > someone (Sarah?) discussed wise attention sometime back but I have > forgotten what was said.< > ..... 25091 From: connie Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:42pm Subject: Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents You're probably right, Sarah. Since I don't have a Mac, changing the odd-ball symbols I see in different things I've downloaded is probably a matter of getting the right fonts and/or playing with Pali-Trans awhile. More important right now might be a library trip and figuring out things like case and all those other grammar terms. peace, connie 25092 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions TG writes: > Hi Christine > > I think we could find many things that the six senses share but my > recollection is that there is a specific sutta the talks to this issue and it points to > mind. Its possible I'm remembering wrong but I think that's right. The Sutta > is probably either in Majjhima or Samyutta. I believe its the one that talks > about 6 different animals being tied to the same stake and they all have to > come to rest there. (The stake being the mind obviously.) > >> TG > > Ray: Here is the Sutta: Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.206 Chappana Sutta The Six Animals Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "Suppose that a man, wounded and festering, were to go into a swampy jungle. Its sharp-bladed grasses would pierce his feet; its thorns would scratch his festering sores. And so, from that cause, he would experience an even greater measure of pain and unhappiness. In the same way, there is the case where a certain monk, having gone to a village or to the wilderness, meets up with someone who upbraids him: 'This venerable one, acting in this way, undertaking practices in this way, is a thorn of impurity in this village.' Knowing this person to be a thorn, one should understand restraint and lack of restraint. "And what is lack of restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a form with the eye, is obsessed with pleasing forms, is repelled by unpleasing forms, and remains with body-mindfulness unestablished, with limited awareness. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where any evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. "Hearing a sound with the ear... "Smelling an aroma with the nose... "Tasting a flavor with the tongue... "Touching a tactile sensation with the body... "Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is obsessed with pleasing ideas, is repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with body-mindfulness unestablished, with limited awareness. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where any evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. "Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all with a strong rope, and tying a knot in the middle, he would set chase to them. "Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would each pull toward its own range & habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became internally exhausted, they would submit, they would surrender, they would come under the sway of whichever among them was the strongest. In the same way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed in the body is undeveloped & unpursued, the eye pulls toward pleasing forms, while unpleasing forms are repellent. The ear pulls toward pleasing sounds... The nose pulls toward pleasing aromas... The tongue pulls toward pleasing flavors... The body pulls toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect pulls toward pleasing ideas, while unpleasing ideas are repellent. This, monks, is lack of restraint. "And what is restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a form with the eye, is not obsessed with pleasing forms, is not repelled by unpleasing forms, and remains with body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable awareness. He discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where all evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. "Hearing a sound with the ear... "Smelling an aroma with the nose... "Tasting a flavor with the tongue... "Touching a tactile sensation with the body... "Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is not obsessed with pleasing ideas, is not repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable awareness. He discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where all evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. "Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all with a strong rope, he would tether them to a strong post or stake. "Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would each pull toward its own range & habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became internally exhausted, they would stand, sit, or lie down right there next to the post or stake. In the same way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed in the body is developed & pursued, the eye does not pull toward pleasing forms, and unpleasing forms are not repellent. The ear does not pull toward pleasing sounds... The nose does not pull toward pleasing aromas... The tongue does not pull toward pleasing flavors... The body does not pull toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect does not pull toward pleasing ideas, and unpleasing ideas are not repellent. This, monks, is restraint. "The 'strong post or stake' is a term for mindfulness immersed in the body. "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give it a grounding. We will steady it, consolidate it, and set about it properly.' That's how you should train yourselves." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Sun 8 December 2002 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-206.html 25093 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 1:43pm Subject: Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > I agree with your comment, Kio, that there is no magic. However, I also > agree with Nina's comment that it is very difficult for panna to see the > more subtle shades of clinging to an idea of self as Bahiya eventually > realised. > T: In terms of eradicating the defilement of personality view, it might be helpful to consider the difference between the wrong view of self and the delusion of self. Personality view belongs to the cetasika wrong view (ditthi) while the bare belief "I exist" belongs to the cetasika delusion (moha). Speaking conventionally, one might term the delusion "I exist" a wrong view about self, but this is not the meaning of identity view as an aspect of ditthi. The delusion "I exist" may or may not be accompanied by a wrong view about self. When it is, that view always takes one of the 20 forms described in the Suttas, 4 for each of the 5 aggregates, e.g: One regards body as self, or self as possessing body, or body as in self, or self as in body. . Personality view is a doctrine held about the self. It can't arise without the delusion that self exists, but the delusion of self can be present without such a doctrine. Speaking loosely, one might say that personality view is a concretized form of the delusion that self exists. But in reality, personality view has a very different "flavor" than the bare delusion "I exist." That's why they belong to different cetasikas. For doctrinal support for this, consider the fact that personality view is eradicated upon the first path attainment of stream entry, while the delusion of a self can persist all the way to the final path attainment of the Arahant. See for example Samyutta Nikaya 22.89, where the Non-returner Khemaka explains how the lurking tendency to think "I am" still persists at this stage. . Using bare insight meditation, one way to tease out a personality view and distinguish it from delusion is the following: The delusion "I exist" is present almost all the time for most of us. It can be accessed in meditation by just asking, "Do I have a sensation of self here and now?" Assuming the answer is yes, and the sensation that is seen as evidence of self is being experienced, then one can ask, "Where do I believe this self is located?" That question may help bring forth a personality view if it is present. If there is a positive sense that the self is located somewhere, then continued pressure on this sensation to define and reveal itself will eventually bring forth one of the personality views. You'll know you've got it when the view arises from within and has a lot of "energy of conviction" associated with it. This is not an intellectual event, but the direct awareness of the presence of ditthi within oneself. It is as if one is taking a vague view of self and forcing it to reveal its true nature by patient cross-examination, the way one might pin down a vague person by more and more specific questions. There are many examples of Buddha doing this for people in the Suttas. Without Buddha, we have to do it for ourselves. The trick is to let the sensation answer for itself, not to turn to intellectual discourse for answers to these questions. The sensations have the answers already written in them. If they remain just vague sensations associated with words like, "Yes, I believe I have a self and it's located somewhere," then prompting the sensations with questions, like, "Is self associated with body? Feeling? Consciousness? Perception? Volition?" can help bring it forth. Paying attention to the sensations that arise with each question will lead one to locate which view is present at that moment. Under pressure, the view may temporarily disappear, which is an aspect of impermanence. Often a different personality view will arise in its place. But it's possible to stay with each one until it either leaves (for now) or reveals itself to be one of the 20 personality views. . I hope this is relevent and helpful. Once personality view is located through bare insight meditation like this, there are ways to foster the conditions which will lead to its complete abandonment. In terms of the original post, there's no "magic" in it. It's not necessarily easy, but it's not as hard as one might imagine if one believes that abandoning personality view is the same as abandoning all delusion of the existence of a self. . Metta, Toby 25094 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 2:17pm Subject: vis 8, continuation Nina: "I wait for you with reference to Vis Ch XXII, § 127 (more on development), because I do not have this online." Hi Nina, It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about. This reference comes up in the next paragraph, Vism. XIV, 13. Ch. XXII, 127, 128, 129 is the end of the chapter on Purification by Knowledge and Vision. I believe it is page 697 in the PTS translation. I can type it out in a day or two but I have one more question about mental feeling and feeling in general and I'm thinking there will be some corrections to what I have written on Vism. XIV 12. In the mean time maybe Icaro could copy and paste the German. It is the end of the Chapter on Purification by Knowledge and Vision beginning with "The seeing of nibbana at the first path is "realizing as seeing." in Ven.~Nanamoli"s trans. Larry 25095 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom > > p.s. Yesterday, I got swarmed by some very nasty bees or wasps just > outside of my cottage and got stung twice. I also got stung two weeks > ago and I had up until then only been stung once in my life. I think > there may be a nest nearby or under the cottage (worst case scenario) > and I just hate the thought of having to deal with this problem, any > suggestions? Hi Jim, If you can locate the hive, one thing you can do is wait till the night when the bees/wasps are inactive, then place the hive in a plastic bag and transport it somewhere else. The hive can be moved this way because it's something they build and live inside. At my cabin they often build them under eaves. I don't know if moving the hive this way is "fair game" from a kammic perspective, but that's the best solution I've been able to come up with. Metta, Toby 25096 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:58pm Subject: Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living [just a quick question] Hi Dan, > --> Dan: I'm wondering what you mean when you say 'individuality'. > And why would this be something that one would want to maintain? For example (just one aspect): If you are surrounded by people, thoughts, and the media of those whose lives are centered around aquiring sensual pleasures then this mode of behavior can be influential. I would like to maintain my individuality from this mode of behavior, but it makes it more difficult if that is the behavior of the people, thoughts and the media that surround you. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Nori, > You are right that associating with the wise conduces to development > of wisdom and associating with fools conduces to development of > foolishness. > > But I have a question... > > You write: "It is difficult and painful (not to mention lonely) to > maintain individuality somewhere, especially if you are against the > grain." > > --> Dan: I'm wondering what you mean when you say 'individuality'. > And why would this be something that one would want to maintain? 25097 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions Hi Ray That sutta actually does not make the point I was making. There may yet be another similar sutta that does or there may not. LOL But its possible. LOL TG In a message dated 9/7/2003 1:38:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rhendrickson1@e... writes: > TG writes: > > > >Hi Christine > > > >I think we could find many things that the six senses share but my > >recollection is that there is a specific sutta the talks to this issue and > it points to > >mind. Its possible I'm remembering wrong but I think that's right. The > Sutta > >is probably either in Majjhima or Samyutta. I believe its the one that > talks > >about 6 different animals being tied to the same stake and they all have > to > >come to rest there. (The stake being the mind obviously.) > > > >>TG > > > > > Ray: > > Here is the Sutta: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.206 > Chappana Sutta > The Six Animals > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > "Suppose that a man, wounded and festering, were to go into a swampy jungle. > Its sharp-bladed grasses would pierce his feet; its thorns would scratch his > festering sores. And so, from that cause, he would experience an even > greater measure of pain and unhappiness. In the same way, there is the case > where a certain monk, having gone to a village or to the wilderness, meets > up with someone who upbraids him: 'This venerable one, acting in this way, > undertaking practices in this way, is a thorn of impurity in this village.' > Knowing this person to be a thorn, one should understand restraint and lack > of restraint. > "And what is lack of restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a > form with the eye, is obsessed with pleasing forms, is repelled by > unpleasing forms, and remains with body-mindfulness unestablished, with > limited awareness. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the > awareness-release, the discernment-release where any evil, unskillful mental > qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. > > "Hearing a sound with the ear... > > "Smelling an aroma with the nose... > > "Tasting a flavor with the tongue... > > "Touching a tactile sensation with the body... > > "Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is obsessed with pleasing ideas, > is repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with body-mindfulness > unestablished, with limited awareness. He does not discern, as it actually > is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where any evil, > unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without > remainder. > > "Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different > habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would > bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a > hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all > with a strong rope, and tying a knot in the middle, he would set chase to > them. > > "Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would > each pull toward its own range &habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, > 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go > into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' > The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would > pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, > thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became > internally exhausted, they would submit, they would surrender, they would > come under the sway of whichever among them was the strongest. In the same > way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed in the body is undeveloped & > unpursued, the eye pulls toward pleasing forms, while unpleasing forms are > repellent. The ear pulls toward pleasing sounds... The nose pulls toward > pleasing aromas... The tongue pulls toward pleasing flavors... The body > pulls toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect pulls toward > pleasing ideas, while unpleasing ideas are repellent. This, monks, is lack > of restraint. > > "And what is restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a form with > the eye, is not obsessed with pleasing forms, is not repelled by unpleasing > forms, and remains with body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable > awareness. He discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, > the discernment-release where all evil, unskillful mental qualities that > have arisen utterly cease without remainder. > > "Hearing a sound with the ear... > > "Smelling an aroma with the nose... > > "Tasting a flavor with the tongue... > > "Touching a tactile sensation with the body... > > "Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is not obsessed with pleasing > ideas, is not repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with > body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable awareness. He discerns, as > it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where > all evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without > remainder. > > "Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different > habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would > bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a > hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all > with a strong rope, he would tether them to a strong post or stake. > > "Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would > each pull toward its own range &habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, > 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go > into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' > The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would > pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, > thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became > internally exhausted, they would stand, sit, or lie down right there next to > the post or stake. In the same way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed > in the body is developed &pursued, the eye does not pull toward pleasing > forms, and unpleasing forms are not repellent. The ear does not pull toward > pleasing sounds... The nose does not pull toward pleasing aromas... The > tongue does not pull toward pleasing flavors... The body does not pull > toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect does not pull toward > pleasing ideas, and unpleasing ideas are not repellent. This, monks, is > restraint. > > "The 'strong post or stake' is a term for mindfulness immersed in the body. > > "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in > the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give > it a grounding. We will steady it, consolidate it, and set about it > properly.' That's how you should train yourselves." > 25098 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 0:50am Subject: address for Chinese CMA (Abhidammattha sangaha) Hi Icaro, --- icaro franca wrote: > I am interested, Sarah!!! .... Thx Icaro. I had a wager with Jon who thought that surely you wouldn’t be interested in the Chinese text of CMA. I suggested he just wait and see and on cue you write: ..... > Please do it as soon as possible, even if I can´t > be able to reply from October to next January!!! ..... ;-) Actually it’s very clearly produced and still has the Pali text. Good luck! ***** for free distribution: The Penang Buddhist Association 168, Anson road, 10400 Penang, Malaysia fax 04-2289987 ***** You wrote in another post (to me): > Great! > The Great Patthana and its Combinatory Analysis of > Paccayoti, Kusala and akusala dhammas and so on is > mesmerizing me .... someday I will get full dominion > of all its stanzas!!! > I will take a very clear path at boot camp: since > all reality comes from out us by sense-doors, so I > will take the firm decision to view all thse interplay > of nama and rupa, Citta and cetasika as a direct > linking of thoughts - like the Paticca-samuppada, > without the twisting an curling of personal opinions > and viewpoints: hetu-paccaya combining with akusala > sampayutta and rupadhamma and so on. ..... ;-) It’s good to appreciate that the namas and rupas at boot camp are no more or less real and to be known than those now, whilst listening to music or studying the texts. No self to view, just panna to understand and know them when there are conditions and without expectation. Just don’t start reciting Dhammasangani-pali in your sleep or you may get taken off to the boot camp hospital;-) Thanks so much for all your up-beat contributions here, Icaro. It’s a real treat to have you around, even when much of what you say goes over our heads as Christine said before;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25099 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Jim, (Robs M&K, Larry, Icaro & all), --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I just like to add that 'the four truths' is considered an alternative > proximate cause of wisdom (catusaccapada.t.thaana) to the more usual > samaadhipada.t.thaana according to some texts. References: Sv-p.t I > 92, Cp-a 281. From what I've seen so far I think B. Bodhi's 'wise > attention' is probably not supported by the texts. However, there is > no problem in seeing it as a necessary condition for wisdom. I agree > with the Atthasalini (p.63) that 'wise attention' is the (general) > proximate cause of any wholesome state including those accompanied by > knowledge or wisdom. Thanks for the quote from The Guide (Netti) which > I had overlooked. ..... Perhaps it’s a question of the precision of words here.There are quite a few passages in BB’s Guide sections that give a broader interpretation than is given in the commentary as discussed before. There is some discussion of this in the intro. This is why it’s useful to refer to the commentary itself as discussed before with Mike who also hadn’t realised that the Guide sections are only loosely based on it. Perhaps as I wrote too with the Netti refs, proximate cause (pada.t.thaana) can refer to ‘necessary condition’? In this case, the sutta ref RobK gave may be relevant. Also, AN111,68 “If they ask: ’And what, friends, is the cause and reason for the onon-arising of unarisen delusion, and for the abandoning of arisen delusion?’you should reply” Proper attention (yoniso manasikaara): for one who attends properly to things, unarisen delusion will not arise and arisen delusion will be abandoned.’” In ANX,61, we also read about yoniso manasikaara as the ‘nutriment of mindfulness and clear comprehension’. Perhaps BB’s note on p90 is based on such references.He also refers to the importance of it on p26 guide2. I understand your comments however. ***** > p.s. Yesterday, I got swarmed by some very nasty bees or wasps just > outside of my cottage and got stung twice. [..] > something bad happening in my forest paradise > . .... There are always challenges in any forest paradise;-)I’m glad Toby’s come to the rescue as I wouldn’t be much help. (Toby, hope you can join in our seclusion/solitary/forest cabin threads too;-)) Meanwhile city paradise here is facing potential problems with a planned 4 week music festival carnival on our doorstep, i.e right in front of our high-rise on a piece of vacant harbour-view land which was used for the 1997 hand-over ceremonies. So in addition to the Stones and Santana, there are another dozen bands coming for rehearsals and concerts (most of which I’ve never heard of) to show all you solitary dwellers what a great place Hong Kong is post-SARS. I’m only too aware of the fears and worries on my part on account of nothing that’s even happened yet;-( Fortunately we’ll be in Burma & Thailand for two weekends. I know this wouldn’t be your idea of a suitable house swap, Jim, but I thought maybe it would be a perfect swap for Icaro....he has 24hour live music and a Dhamma library and I have a couple of weeks of Brazilian boot camp and outdoor living;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Icaro, you’d have to entertain my students too, but that would be no problem for you;-) ====== 25100 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, I hadn’t forgotten your earlier post, but have been considering some of the issues. Sometimes I get distracted on other threads and sometimes I just like to leave certain threads on the back-burner for a while..... ..... --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I have since found some more interesting details on this in the > subcty. to Buddhappiya's Mahaaruupasiddhi (a Pali grammatical > treatise). The threefold saasana is ultimately grounded on skilfulness > in the 41 Pali letters (including grammar) for when this exist there > is the understanding of pariyatti (the tipi.taka with the > a.t.thakathaa-s). .... This touches an area that is very difficult for me to appreciate. Perhaps it should also be read in the light of yoniso manasikaara (wise attention)? We know there can be Pali and Abhidhamma scholars who still miss the essence of the teachings and that wisdom cannot be equated with degree of these kinds of knowledge. So even pariyatti is more than just book knowledge. I think the point, however, is that as the scriptural knowledge and availability declines, so does the threefold sasana. I’m, just thinking about the vinaya rule about the importance of the correct pronunciation of Pali in order for the ordinations to be valid and the reasons for this rule. I’ve also been reflecting on the third Patisambhida (discrimination)- niruttipa.tisambhidaa (discrimination of language) since Larry (?) raised it. Sv15,387 (Pali), 1946 (Eng) “Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its object, not a concept as its object.” We read that all Buddhas use the same language, the only one which doesn’t change: “Also the Enlightened One, in announcing the Buddha word of the Tipitaka, did so only in the Magadha tongue. Why? Because in this way it is easy to deduce the meaning; since the only delay for the buddha word announced in the text in the magadha tongue is that occurring when coming to the ears of those who have attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by repeated application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary man, even if he has learnt much; and there is no noble disciple who has not reached the Discriminations” [see also VismX1V,25] The last line puzzles me. As Nina always reminds us, only some arahants had these discriminations. Not now. There are degrees and the chief disciples had them to a greater degree than other disciples which is why Sariputta could listen to the Abhidhamma in brief and immediately comprehend it in detail. Sv 387(Pali- last para),1949 (English) is difficult and has been raised before- the children speaking the Magadha language. Are these Bodhisattas? Nina, Mike, Jim - any comments? ..... >This is great as it really underscores the > worthwhileness of studying and gaining expertise in Pali. Pa.tipatti > (practice) is the threefold training and pa.tivedha (penetration) is > the attainment of the nine lokuttara dhammas. Pa.tivedha seems to be > interchangeable with adhigama. .... Yes, but I think we have to be careful about how we use the word ‘studying’. I’m not sure that it is just ‘skill’ and ‘study’ as we use these conventionally that is referred to. I think we always have to read these phrases in the light of the entire teaching on satipatthana. What do you think, Jim? .... > Perhaps the dhutadhammas should be better regarded as ascetic > qualities or principles instead of practices as in the 13 dhutangas. > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/dhutaanga.htm .... Again, I think the mental states involved are the key as we saw in Bahiya’s case of deluded simple living combined with strong conceit. From your helpful link, I think this is a fair summary: “Since the moral quality of any action depends entirely upon the accompanying intention and volition, this is also the case with these ascetic practices, as is expressly stated in Vis.M. Thus the mere external performance is not the real exercise, as it is said (Pug. 275-84): "Some one might be going for alms; etc. out of stupidity and foolishness - or with evil intention and filled with desires - or out of insanity and mental derangement - or because such practice had been praised by the Noble Ones...." These exercises are, however properly observed "if they are taken up only for the sake of frugality, of contentedness, of purity, etc."(App.)” [big snip only because we can’t discuss everything in every post;-)] ..... > I'm glad to have seen that there has been at least some interest shown > by you and a few others. I suspect that solitary living in a forest > hermitage will remain only of interest to a very small number of us, > whether or not we are involved in Buddhism. ..... Regardless of any personal inclinations, I think we can all learn a lot from really considering the meanings of these terms related to solitary dwelling and references to roots of tree and so on. We can also learn a lot from reflecting on the rules for the monks regarding ‘fewness of wishes’ and so on and their relevance to our present mental states. I greatly appreciate your raising all of these, Jim. (Did you see that the phrase ‘pa.tisalliinassa’ was used for ‘who was in seclusion, who was solitary’ referring to Bahiya living physically alone.)Of course, it wasn’t the living alone as such but his erroneous views and mana that were the problem. ..... I think that this kind of > living has many advantages and offers a practical long-term solution > for some, especially in a Western society. One great advantage is that > it gives one a lot of free time to pursue such things as studying Pali > or developing samatha as these do require a lot of time, effort, and > patience. And as I said earlier simple solitary living is suitable for > one who has the temperament for it. .... I suspect Toby will have much to contribute on this subject too. We know already he’s a wasp expert and lives in a cabin;-) We certainly envy all your free time over the years. It is hard to open texts when, like Jon, you’re in meetings and drafting legislation all day every day, year after year, decade after decade;-). On the other hand, I don’t think either of us agree that this kind of complicated non-solitary daily lifestyle is any obstacle for developing satipatthana or other kinds of wholesome states, including samatha in the beginning - especially as all these depend primarily on right understanding (panna) of one kind or other. I think if we consider daily life objects of samatha such as reflection on the Dhamma, the Buddha’s qualities, metta, death and so on, we can appreciate why panna rather than time and effort are the keys to the arising of wholesome states. I’d be glad to hear any further reflections you have, Jim and I think it works well to just pick and choose parts for response (if any!)without any obligations. I think we’re also both trying to avoid pulling out too many texts;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I have BB’s transl of M1(Mulapariyaya) w/comy, but still not sure which part you were referring to. I’m sure I’m being dense. ====== 25101 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Susan, you wrote: ---------------- > > I won't run away Sara lol! I think last time I just wasn't ready > so felt a bit overwhelmed with my own lack of understanding which made > me > feel a bit ignorant. However, the fact is I am ignorant and with that > realisation I now feel ready to study the Dharma as opposed to reading > it > like a book which I hadn't actually realised I was doing. ..... I thought of you when I just mentioned 'studying' in another post. I think it's the considering and reflecting of the Dhamma read that is most helpful. I agree with your comments that there's a lot of ignorance to learn about - more and more to discover;-) Remember, they are just mental states, not 'me' or 'you'. ..... > Thanks for the welcome.......... thank you to everyone for the warm > welcome, and thank you Rob for giving me a place to start. I did have a > look at the Abhidhamma and felt it was a bit complex for me at this > time, > so went to your suggested link Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", and > found > the Beginners section which I just what I need. Thanks Rob!! .... I hope you can follow his slide series too. These can be found in the files if you wish to review them: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ I'm glad you're finding Nina's BDL helpful and presumably this is the Beginners section at Zolag? If there are any paragraphs you find particularly helpful or puzzling, maybe you can share them here for discussion. We'd all be glad. In the files too, under 'Useful Posts', you may like to look at the sections: Abhidhamma for beginners and New to the list and new to Dhamma. Click on the highlighted numbers to read the past posts in these sections. I may have mentioned this before. Also, there's a very simple Pali glossary you may wish to print out and have next to your computer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms You also mentioned the Four Noble Truths. A very difficult subject. Please raise anything -perhaps the truth of dukkha first. Do you live in England? I knew A.Sumedho (who you mentioned) when he first came to live in England in the 70s and settled in a house converted into a vihara near where I lived in Hampstead, London. I appreciated the contact and his friendly open manner very much. Look forward to hearing any of your comments and qus (none too simple;-)) Metta, Sarah ===== 25102 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Pali and Sanskrit Dear Kom, Sarah, Rob K On Pali list we had the issue whether it is an offence for a monk to use language other than Pali when explaining the Dhamma. There was a Vinaya text, Vinaya II.139 = Culavagga V.33.1. > "na, > bhikkhave, buddhavacana.m chandaso aaropetabba.m. Yo aaropeyya, > aapatti dukka.tassa. Anujaanaami, bhikkhave, sakaaya niruttiyaa > buddhavacana.m pariyaapu.nitun"ti. Chandaso is vedic. The Vinaya relates an incident where two monks complained to the Buddha that other monks of various origins were distorting the Buddha's Teaching in using their own dialect (sakya niruttiy) and proposed that the Teaching be transmitted in Vedic verse (chandaso). The Buddha refused and declared: 'I allow you, monks, to learn the Buddha Word in your own dialect (sakaaya niruttiyaa).' > N: thus, not Vedic. What is Vedic? It is Hindu. But allowed is: own dialect. Waht is it? Many different languages. One of the teachers gave the following text: The Ara.na,vibhanga Sutta says: M 139.12 'You should not cling to a regional language; you should not reject common usage.' So it is said. In what connection is this said? How, monks, is there clinging to a regional language and reject-ion of common usage? Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, patta, vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it in such and such a region, they speak accordingly, firmly adhering (to the words) and insisting, 'Only this is right; anything else is wrong.' This is how, monks, there is clinging to a regional language and reject-ion of common usage. And how, monks, is there no clinging to a regional language and no reject-ion of common usage?[1] Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, [235] patta, vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it in such and such a region, without adhering (to the words), one speaks accordingly. This is how, monks, there is no clinging to a regional language and no reject-ion of common usage. So it is with reference to this that it is said, 'You should not cling to a regional language; you should not reject common usage.'> Nina: Now, I have heard in Thailand that it is an offense for a monk to use non pali terms for dhamma. I do not know whether the Vinaya has other texts about this. I mentioned that Ven. Nyanatiloka uses: karma, nirvana and was wondering about this. Is it perhaps in the Peg sutta, I could not find this one. Rob K and Sarah quoted this, it is about the decline of the teachings, preferring poetical language to the scriptures. What is even more: we read in a Siam Society Journal (did not keep it, is it on line now?) that twice in history a group of Thai monks went to Sri Lanka to be reordained, because the pronunciation of the Pali of the rituals was not correct in Thailand. I would not know how to find out the correct pronunciation, is it possible to know? I corresponded with Rob K about this long ago. The late Phra Dhammadharo was also reordained in Sri Lanka for this reason. It may seem too puritan, but I think there must be reasons behind it. He must have considered this very seriously, having known him as very conscientious. Maybe Jonothan knows more. It is quite a step to be reordained. I think it all stems from true concern to keep the teachings intact after they were rehearsed at the three Councils. Perhaps there is more in the Co to the Vinaya. I hope one of you can help me with more info. Could perhaps Kom find out about Thai sources, or Jaran? Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25103 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] sanna and vipassana Hi Larry, op 07-09-2003 07:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Would you say contemplation/mindfulness (anupassana) is applied thought > and sustained thought (vitakka vicaara)? N: they are different cetasikas performing different functions. Vitakka helps panna in hitting upon the object so that panna can understand it. Sati is non-forgetful of the object. Nina. 25104 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi Larry, op 07-09-2003 21:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, nether > perception nor non perception. I don't know why these are not included > in the tabulations of this paragraph. Nina??? N: Because they are the same type of citta accompanied by the same cetasikas as the fifth and highest stage of rupa-jhana, material jhana. Nina. 25105 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Dear Icaro, op 07-09-2003 20:51 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > But, since you mention French... are there > versions of the Visuddhimagga in this language online N: I have not heard about this, I do not know much about online. Nina. 25106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] vis 8, continuation Hi Larry, Yes. The Subco dealls with this now, and does not return to it later on. Nina. op 07-09-2003 23:17 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > It is the end of the Chapter on > Purification by Knowledge and Vision beginning with "The seeing of > nibbana at the first path is "realizing as seeing." in Ven.~Nanamoli"s > trans. 25107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi Larry, op 07-09-2003 08:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could you explain or give an example that illustrates how or why > understanding is accompanied by joy or equanimity (pleasant mental > feeling and neutral mental feeling)? Why isn't understanding accompanied > by unpleasant mental feeling? N: Never by unpleasant feeling, because this accompanies only the akusala cittas rooted in dosa. Pleasant mental feeling can accompany akusala citta rooted in lobha, neutral mental feeling can accompany akusala citta rooted in lobha and in moha. pleasant mental feeling and neutral Mental feeling can accompany sobhana citta (including kusala citta, vipakacitta, kiriyacitta), and these can be accompanied by panna or unaccompanied by panna. Example: you may study now the Dhamma and see its usefulness, but you do not each moment have happy feeling about it. We cannot be enthusiastic (piti, with happy feeling) from early morning to late at evening. It depends on conditions. Nina 25108 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, This is really interesting and explains a very tricky passage . Thanks you with respect Robertk--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Kom, Sarah, Rob K > On Pali list we had the issue whether it is an offence for a monk to use > language other than Pali when explaining the Dhamma. There was a Vinaya > text, Vinaya II.139 = Culavagga V.33.1. > > "na, > > bhikkhave, buddhavacana.m chandaso aaropetabba.m. Yo aaropeyya, > > aapatti dukka.tassa. Anujaanaami, bhikkhave, sakaaya niruttiyaa > > buddhavacana.m pariyaapu.nitun"ti. > Chandaso is vedic. > The Vinaya relates an incident where two monks complained to the Buddha > that other monks of various origins were distorting the Buddha's Teaching in > using their own dialect (sakya niruttiy) and proposed that the Teaching be > transmitted in Vedic verse (chandaso). The Buddha refused and declared: 'I > allow you, monks, to learn the Buddha Word in your own dialect (sakaaya > niruttiyaa).' > > N: thus, not Vedic. What is Vedic? It is Hindu. But allowed is: own dialect. > Waht is it? Many different languages. > One of the teachers gave the following text: > The Ara.na,vibhanga Sutta says: > > M 139.12 > > 'You should not cling to a regional language; you should not reject > common usage.' So it is said. In what connection is this said? > > How, monks, is there clinging to a regional language and reject-ion of > common usage? > > Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, patta, > vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it in > such and such a region, they speak accordingly, firmly adhering (to the > words) and insisting, 'Only this is right; anything else is wrong.' > > This is how, monks, there is clinging to a regional language and > reject-ion of common usage. > > And how, monks, is there no clinging to a regional language and no > reject-ion of common usage?[1] > > Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, [235] > patta, vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it > in such and such a region, without adhering (to the words), one speaks > accordingly. > > This is how, monks, there is no clinging to a regional language and > no reject-ion of common usage. > > So it is with reference to this that it is said, 'You should not cling > to a regional language; you should not reject common usage.'> > > Nina: Now, I have heard in Thailand that it is an offense for a monk to use > non pali terms for dhamma. I do not know whether the Vinaya has other texts > about this. I mentioned that Ven. Nyanatiloka uses: karma, nirvana and was > wondering about this. > Is it perhaps in the Peg sutta, I could not find this one. Rob K and Sarah > quoted this, it is about the decline of the teachings, preferring poetical > language to the scriptures. > What is even more: we read in a Siam Society Journal (did not keep it, is it > on line now?) that twice in history a group of Thai monks went to Sri Lanka > to be reordained, because the pronunciation of the Pali of the rituals was > not correct in Thailand. I would not know how to find out the correct > pronunciation, is it possible to know? I corresponded with Rob K about this > long ago. The late Phra Dhammadharo was also reordained in Sri Lanka for > this reason. It may seem too puritan, but I think there must be reasons > behind it. He must have considered this very seriously, having known him as > very conscientious. Maybe Jonothan knows more. It is quite a step to be > reordained. > I think it all stems from true concern to keep the teachings intact after > they were rehearsed at the three Councils. Perhaps there is more in the Co > to the Vinaya. > I hope one of you can help me with more info. Could perhaps Kom find out > about Thai sources, or Jaran? > Nina. > 25109 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Dear Nori, op 07-09-2003 04:52 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > > According to the PTS dictionary: nama in its most primitive form > is 'name'; likewise rupa is defined as 'form'; thus name and form.....> > How is it that 'name' has become - mental phenomena ? > How is it that 'form' has become - physical phenomena ? > How is it that these definitions were implied? Nina: Right, nama has different meanings depending on the context. It can mean name, it is also used to emphhasize words: indeed, truly. When used together with rupa: it is as you also found: mental phenomena. The four nama khandhas. Rupa is often transl as form, but is is actually materiality, physical phenomena. But sometimes it stands for visible object, that is why form is used. The transl. nama and form for nama and rupa may be confusing. Nama: as said, it can be name. The Expositor gives an explanation for the meaning of mental phenomenon: namati: it bends, it bends towards an object, it experiences an object (Expositor II, P. 501), or the four nama khandhas cause one another to bend on to the object. preceding to this there is a para about name giving which is difficult to understand for me. Anyway, here in the Vis mental phenomena and physical phenomena are meant. The first stage of insight is: naama-ruupa-paricheda-~naa.na : distinguishing nama from rupa. Nori: rupa is: objectively existing unconscious physical matter as it truly > exists (with or without our conciousness/perception of it). (?) Nina: yes, but it exists only for a moment and then falls away. Its existing does not have to depend on our experiencing, in fact, it has to arise shortly before the nama that experiences it. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and can then not be object of experience. Nori: nama is: our mental representation/memory/interpretation/symbol/idea > of the percieved rupa through the senses. (???) Nina: the four khandhas are nama. Citta experiences an object. The other three khandhas are the cetasikas accompanying citta. You say, The idea itself is a concept, citta can think of. A concept is not nama nor is it rupa. We can think of realities , nama and rupa, and we can also think of what is not real in the ultimate sense: concept. Citta can think of anything, no matter true or not true. Nina. 25110 From: susan macqueen Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Sarah, "I think it's the considering and reflecting of the Dhamma read that is most helpful. " ---------- Yes I agree........my problem is I have always tried to run before I could walk, however I'm working on that one. I do feel at present I am being a little more mindful of my thoughts and where they take me, and if they are not such good thoughts I do try and notice, but it's very difficult to grasp sometimes as my big ego has led me most of my life. I was wondering if you could tell me the meaning of Om Mani Padme Hum Hrih........I have seen other Mantra's but I don't know what any of them mean, I also don't know if meditating on a Mantra is a good way for a beginner! I did read somewhere that the idea of a Mantra was to recite this as and when, or whatever your doing and the longer you recite the Mantra a meaning will come to you. Is this right? I would be grateful if anyone has any advices. Thanks Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > Hi Susan, > > you wrote: > ---------------- > > > > I won't run away Sara lol! I think last time I just wasn't ready > > so felt a bit overwhelmed with my own lack of understanding which made > > me > > feel a bit ignorant. However, the fact is I am ignorant and with that > > realisation I now feel ready to study the Dharma as opposed to reading > > it > > like a book which I hadn't actually realised I was doing. > ..... > I thought of you when I just mentioned 'studying' in another post. I think > it's the considering and reflecting of the Dhamma read that is most > helpful. I agree with your comments that there's a lot of ignorance to > learn about - more and more to discover;-) Remember, they are just mental > states, not 'me' or 'you'. > ..... > > Thanks for the welcome.......... thank you to everyone for the warm > > welcome, and thank you Rob for giving me a place to start. I did have a > > look at the Abhidhamma and felt it was a bit complex for me at this > > time, > > so went to your suggested link Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", and > > found > > the Beginners section which I just what I need. Thanks Rob!! > .... > I hope you can follow his slide series too. These can be found in the > files if you wish to review them: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > > I'm glad you're finding Nina's BDL helpful and presumably this is the > Beginners section at Zolag? If there are any paragraphs you find > particularly helpful or puzzling, maybe you can share them here for > discussion. We'd all be glad. > > In the files too, under 'Useful Posts', you may like to look at the > sections: Abhidhamma for beginners and New to the list and new to Dhamma. > Click on the highlighted numbers to read the past posts in these sections. > I may have mentioned this before. Also, there's a very simple Pali > glossary you may wish to print out and have next to your computer: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms > > You also mentioned the Four Noble Truths. A very difficult subject. Please > raise anything -perhaps the truth of dukkha first. > > Do you live in England? I knew A.Sumedho (who you mentioned) when he first > came to live in England in the 70s and settled in a house converted into a > vihara near where I lived in Hampstead, London. I appreciated the contact > and his friendly open manner very much. > > Look forward to hearing any of your comments and qus (none too simple;-)) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 25111 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] address for Chinese CMA (Abhidammattha sangaha) Dear Sarah: ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" ;-) > Actually it’s very clearly produced and still has > the Pali text. Good > luck! > ***** > for free distribution: > > The Penang Buddhist Association > 168, Anson road, > 10400 Penang, > Malaysia > > fax 04-2289987 > *****" ----------------------------------------------------- Gooda!!!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" You wrote in another post (to me):(...) ;-) It’s good to appreciate that the namas and rupas > at boot camp are no > more or less real and to be known than those now, > whilst listening to > music or studying the texts. No self to view, just > panna to understand and > know them when there are conditions and without > expectation. > > Just don’t start reciting Dhammasangani-pali in your > sleep or you may get > taken off to the boot camp hospital;-)" ----------------------------------------------------- Hahah!!! Kamma plays on tricky pieces!!! I was yesterday trying to print the Dhammasanganipali copy I have got at one Cybercafé´s printer (mine is out of order!)...when this came also out of order! I could only put in ink and paper the first 22 stanzas of Dhammasangani´s Mattika. At least I will get something interesting to read before sleep, besides H.H. Dalai Lama Audiobooks! ------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" Thanks so much for all your up-beat contributions > here, Icaro. It’s a real > treat to have you around, even when much of what you > say goes over our > heads as Christine said before;-)" ------------------------------------------------------- So you and Chris have got less than five feet of height...hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > Sarah > ====== ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25112 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Susan, --- susan macqueen wrote: > Yes I agree........my problem is I have always tried to run before I > could > walk, however I'm working on that one. I do feel at present I am being > a > little more mindful of my thoughts and where they take me, and if they > are > not such good thoughts I do try and notice, but it's very difficult to > grasp > sometimes as my big ego has led me most of my life. .... A common problem;-) ..... > > I was wondering if you could tell me the meaning of Om Mani Padme Hum > Hrih........I have seen other Mantra's but I don't know what any of them > mean, ..... Sorry, I've no idea. Mike might be able to help... ..... I also don't know if meditating on a Mantra is a good way for a > beginner! I did read somewhere that the idea of a Mantra was to recite > this > as and when, or whatever your doing and the longer you recite the Mantra > a > meaning will come to you. Is this right? ..... You could be reciting for a long while I'd think, but let us know if it does.... Sorry not to help here, metta, Sarah ====== 25113 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Dear Sarah: Sarah: " but I thought maybe > it would be a perfect swap for Icaro....he has > 24hour live music and a > Dhamma library and I have a couple of weeks of > Brazilian boot camp and > outdoor living;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Icaro, you’d have to entertain my students too, > but that would be no > problem for you;-)" ---------------------------------------------------- My only concern now is what I will carry on with me to boot camp: again the Buddhist monk´s only nine objects - three robes, toothbrush, bowl, staff, fan, shaving blade and Tiger Balm...hahahahahahahahahah!!!! Anyway I will really miss the discussions and dhamma talking here the dsg. Sorry Sarah, but I find Connie´s talkies and commentaries DELICIOUS !!!! And I will try to keep a Dhamma Diary, that I will post here to all you members: - Will Cetasika play a tricky role at Citta realms ? - Shall I keep my strong purpose don´t reciting the Dhammasangani while sleeping ? - Shall I manage to keep vipassana while jogging, jumping, marching and firing ? - Shall I survive the boot camp ? Questions, questions, questioms... Stay Tuned for more Dhamma Days!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25114 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] address for Chinese CMA (Abhidammattha sangaha) Hi Icaro, --- icaro franca wrote: > Hahah!!! Kamma plays on tricky pieces!!! > I was yesterday trying to print the > Dhammasanganipali copy I have got at one Cybercafé´s > printer (mine is out of order!)...when this came also > out of order! I could only put in ink and paper the > first 22 stanzas of Dhammasangani´s Mattika. > At least I will get something interesting to read > before sleep, besides H.H. Dalai Lama Audiobooks! > > ------------------------------------------------------- Maybe, just maybe Dhammasanganipali is too much for the printers to handle;-) Perhaps you'll be able to learn the first 22 stanzas to recite in between the Audiobooks.... If you find another printer that is still working in Rio, you might also download the first couple of chapters of Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' to take. I think you'd find it very useful if you've not read it. I'd send you a hard copy if there was time, but there isn't. ..... > So you and Chris have got less than five feet of > height...hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .... In my case it's almost right - I'm very height challenged;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25115 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:51am Subject: Free-will (Was Kamma) Hello Christine, Rob K and all, I transcribed the following quote from Thanissaro Bhikkhu: "The Buddha's teachings on karma are interesting because it's a combination of causality and free-will. If things were totally caused there would be no way you could develop a skill - your actions would be totally predetermined. If there was no causality at all skills would be useless because things would be constantly changing without any kind of rhyme or reason to them. But it's because there is an element of causality and because there is this element of free-will you can develop skills in life. You ask yourself what is involved in developing a skill? - it means being sensitive to three things basically: one is being sensitive to causes coming from the past one is being sensitive to what you're doing in the present moment and the third is being sensitive to the results of what you're doing in the present moment - how these three things come together." (from his talk "Questions/Not-self" at http://www.audiodharma.org This quote from the Buddha seems to suggest free-will: "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-061.html I read some of the "Useful Posts" on free-will. I believe that the Patthana would explain things if I could access and understand it. What does it mean that new kamma is conditioned if not by the past? Thanks / Antony. 25116 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hi Christine and all, Have you ever considered that the Buddha's teaching is not about seeing all beings, including yourself, as 'functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates'?? The Buddha's teaching is not about what a being is. It is not about seeing yourself thus: "I am a functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates." Seeing self as a functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates is seeing with self-view. Regarding the topic on kamma, this is how I understand it: The principle of kamma is simple: wholesome actions lead to good results, unwholesome actions lead to bad results. Seeing thus one would aspire to wholesome actions and avoid unwholesome action. What is complex is the phenomenon of kamma. A game can have a simple set of rules; however, the ramification of the rules can be complex. Simple patterns can give rise to complex phenomena. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Antony, > 25117 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 10:35am Subject: Pali and sanskrit Dear Sarah and friends, Dimitri interprated the etxts differently. He explained that the sutta text : This passage refers to rendering of wordly terms in communication with lay followers. The fact that it is emphasized may indicate that the monks were overly zealous in speaking only Pali in all circumstances and on all occasion, whereas wordly terms should told to lay followers in their own language. He quoted an article by Geiger about the Vinaya passage: Well, this reference is false. In the PLL (Pali Literature and Language), on pages 6-7, Wilhelm Geiger voices exactly the opposite: "If Pali is the form of Magadhi used by the Buddha, then the Pali canon would have to be regarded as the most authentic form of the Buddhavacanam, even though the teachings of the master might have been preached and learnt from the very beginning in the various provinces of India in the respective local dialects. The conclusion has been drawn -- wrongly, in my opinion, -- from Culavagga V.33.1 = Vin II.139. Here it is related, how two Bhikkhus complained to the master that the members of the order were of various origins, and that they distorted the words of Buddha by their own dialect (sakaaya niruttiyaa). They therefore proposed that the words of Buddha should be translated into Sanskrit verses (chandaso). Buddha however refused to grant the request and added: anujaanaami bhikkhave sakaaya niruttiyaa buddhavacanam pariyaapu.nitum. Rhys Davids and Oldenberg translate this passage by 'I allow you, oh brethren, to learn the words of the Buddha each in his own dialect.' This interpretation however is not in harmony with that of Buddhaghosa, according to whom it has to be translated by "I ordain the words of Buddha to be learnt in _his_ own language (i.e.Magadhi, the language used by Buddha himself)." After repeated examination of this passage I have come to the conclusion that we have to stick to the explanation given by Buddhaghosa. Neither the two monks or the Buddha himself could have thought of preaching in different cases in different dialects. Here the question is merely whether the words of Buddha migth be translated into Sanskrit or not. This is however clearly forbidden by the Master, at first negatively and then positively by the injunction beginning with 'anujaanaami'. The real meaning of this injunction is, as is also best in consonance with Indian spirit, that there can be no other form of the words of Buddha than in which the Master himself had preched. Thus even in the life-time of Buddha people were concerned about the way in which the teaching might be handed down as accurately as possible, both in form and in content. How much more must have been the anxiety of the disciples after his death! The external form was however Magadhi, thought according to tradition it is Pali."> I mentioned pronunciation of Pali: I remember the Buddha telling the monks about chanting not to chant in a certain way: drawing out voices long, etc. I cannot remember where. This may give a clue to pronunciation. Nina. 25118 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 10:56am Subject: Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Nina, Most excellent! Thank you so much for the section from Mahaaraahulovaadasutta and the funny symbols. I'll have to go back and look for your Pali posts on that sutta later on. Now, I'm reading Piya's trilinear DN 22 and putting off my trip to the library (all of 4 blocks!) for a Bonehead Grammar book. Vocabulary eventually sinks in, but those rules just keep floating off. I don't know if I have the whole Velthuis list, but the symbols I have now are: 1/4 = .l 1.2 = .m 3/4 = Aa superscripted: 0 = .n 1 = .d 2 = ii 3 = uu combined +_ = aa u w/long tail in front = .t Plus the Spanish ~n of course, but it looks as expected on my screen. peace, connie 25119 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: the proximate cause of wisdom Dear Jim, May I add to wear white or other light colored cotton clothes and to avoid dark colors and wool when you deal with the bees. You might want to stuff your pant legs into your socks or tie off the bottom of them down around your boots. Maybe gloves with rubber bands around your sleeves. Something to tie onto your head and have hanging down. Not sure what to suggest for a veil. If you are stung, it is better to brush the stinger out/off than to pull it out, which squeezes the poison sack. Also, something about the smell of one sting attracts others, so bravery is not a good course. They say beekeepers acquire an immunity to the stings and don't think anything more of them than a slight scratch. Wasps, I think, bite rather than sting. You might put a piece of wood or something in front of their door if you relocate them. They won't recognize it and should mark it when they come out to be able to know where they are supposed to return to, but expect a few of the bad boys to come back looking for their old house. Also, early morning while they're still sleeping is ok for moving them and maybe not as scary as night time. best wishes, connie 25120 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Toby, Thank-you for your helpful suggestion. There's no hive to be found under the eaves and I'm afraid it's not going to be easy to find. The swarming incident occurred while I was cutting a small shrub in a thicket area and I may have accidentally disturbed the nest/hive in the process. I will be looking around in this area first but it is hard to see through all the foliage with my poor eyesight and if I start poking around in there I could get the bees/wasps all fired up again! With your suggestion I thought it might be better to look for the nest at night with a light while they are asleep. Winter is also approaching and that means they will soon be going into hibernation which should help. With appreciation, Jim > > p.s. Yesterday, I got swarmed by some very nasty bees or wasps just > > outside of my cottage and got stung twice. I also got stung two weeks > > ago and I had up until then only been stung once in my life. I think > > there may be a nest nearby or under the cottage (worst case scenario) > > and I just hate the thought of having to deal with this problem, any > > suggestions? > > Hi Jim, > > If you can locate the hive, one thing you can do is wait till the night when the bees/wasps are inactive, then place the hive in a plastic bag and transport it somewhere else. The hive can be moved this way because it's something they build and live inside. At my cabin they often build them under eaves. I don't know if moving the hive this way is "fair game" from a kammic perspective, but that's the best solution I've been able to come up with. > > Metta, > > Toby 25121 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and sanskrit Dear Nina, Thanks for the excerpt, I never knew about this 'sanskrit-suggestion' before. "I mentioned pronunciation of Pali: I remember the Buddha telling the monks about chanting not to chant in a certain way: drawing out voices long, etc. I cannot remember where." This is in vinaya - a related document is here -> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel206/chanting.html "Thus even in the life-time of Buddha people were concerned about the way in which the teaching might be handed down as accurately as possible, both in form and in content. How much more must have been the anxiety of the disciples after his death! " well , we all agree that they were an intelligent bunch , :-) Regards, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 1:35 PM Subject: [dsg] Pali and sanskrit Dear Sarah and friends, Dimitri interprated the etxts differently. He explained that the sutta text : This passage refers to rendering of wordly terms in communication with lay followers. The fact that it is emphasized may indicate that the monks were overly zealous in speaking only Pali in all circumstances and on all occasion, whereas wordly terms should told to lay followers in their own language. He quoted an article by Geiger about the Vinaya passage: Well, this reference is false. In the PLL (Pali Literature and Language), on pages 6-7, Wilhelm Geiger voices exactly the opposite: "If Pali is the form of Magadhi used by the Buddha, then the Pali canon would have to be regarded as the most authentic form of the Buddhavacanam, even though the teachings of the master might have been preached and learnt from the very beginning in the various provinces of India in the respective local dialects. The conclusion has been drawn -- wrongly, in my opinion, -- from Culavagga V.33.1 = Vin II.139. Here it is related, how two Bhikkhus complained to the master that the members of the order were of various origins, and that they distorted the words of Buddha by their own dialect (sakaaya niruttiyaa). They therefore proposed that the words of Buddha should be translated into Sanskrit verses (chandaso). Buddha however refused to grant the request and added: anujaanaami bhikkhave sakaaya niruttiyaa buddhavacanam pariyaapu.nitum. Rhys Davids and Oldenberg translate this passage by 'I allow you, oh brethren, to learn the words of the Buddha each in his own dialect.' This interpretation however is not in harmony with that of Buddhaghosa, according to whom it has to be translated by "I ordain the words of Buddha to be learnt in _his_ own language (i.e.Magadhi, the language used by Buddha himself)." After repeated examination of this passage I have come to the conclusion that we have to stick to the explanation given by Buddhaghosa. Neither the two monks or the Buddha himself could have thought of preaching in different cases in different dialects. Here the question is merely whether the words of Buddha migth be translated into Sanskrit or not. This is however clearly forbidden by the Master, at first negatively and then positively by the injunction beginning with 'anujaanaami'. The real meaning of this injunction is, as is also best in consonance with Indian spirit, that there can be no other form of the words of Buddha than in which the Master himself had preched. Thus even in the life-time of Buddha people were concerned about the way in which the teaching might be handed down as accurately as possible, both in form and in content. How much more must have been the anxiety of the disciples after his death! The external form was however Magadhi, thought according to tradition it is Pali."> I mentioned pronunciation of Pali: I remember the Buddha telling the monks about chanting not to chant in a certain way: drawing out voices long, etc. I cannot remember where. This may give a clue to pronunciation. Nina. 25122 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 0:47pm Subject: ps Jim I forgot all about mindfullness... if they are bees, they have to grab ahold of you with their front legs before they can sting you, so if you're paying attention, you can brush them off before the damage is done. I don't know a lot about wasps, but there were some living in the wall of my hide-out room for awhile. Our agreement was that I would leave when they were very busy and they put up with me. peace, connie 25123 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hello Victor, and all, Victor, you have been telling me for a couple of years now what the Buddha's teaching is 'not about'. I have followed you through (among many other topics), the free-will vs no-control discussions, the 'what is a being' sutta exchange, and even the great personal pronoun debate. I think it would be very helpful for us if you would choose to say just what, IYHO, the Buddha IS teaching with regard to Anatta and no-self and beings. I recall that you never answered the question about whether you thought there was 'something' that stood separate and behind the five aggregates. But I don't recall that you have ever posted a clear summary (in everyday understandable words instead of only sutta links) of your own understanding of this matter. Nice to hear from you, by the way - sort of comforting to know some things don't perceptibly change, don't you think? metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > Have you ever considered that the Buddha's teaching is not about > seeing all beings, including yourself, as 'functionally unified > combinations of the five aggregates'?? > > The Buddha's teaching is not about what a being is. It is not about > seeing yourself thus: "I am a functionally unified combinations of > the five aggregates." Seeing self as a functionally unified > combinations of the five aggregates is seeing with self-view. > > Regarding the topic on kamma, this is how I understand it: > The principle of kamma is simple: wholesome actions lead to good > results, unwholesome actions lead to bad results. Seeing thus one > would aspire to wholesome actions and avoid unwholesome action. > What is complex is the phenomenon of kamma. A game can have a > simple set of rules; however, the ramification of the rules can be > complex. Simple patterns can give rise to complex phenomena. > > Peace, > Victor 25124 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: Free-will (Was Kamma) Hello Antony, Thanks for your post. Off to work just now, so I'll have a think about it today - and listen to Thanissaro's talk, maybe even take a look at the UP on 'free-will'. Perhaps I'll have something to contribute this evening. Conditionality and no-control are always so interesting, aren't they? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" 25125 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:31pm Subject: Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi Nina, Thank you so much for attending to my question. I hear and read so much about it yet I still feel like I don't know it. you said, regarding rupa: "yes, but it exists only for a moment and then falls away. Its existing does not have to depend on our experiencing, in fact, it has to arise shortly before the nama that experiences it. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and can then not be object of experience." So do you mean to say the chair I sit in does not exist all the time? What is the evidence which led Buddha or anyone else to believe rupa arises and falls away? Also: While rupa can exist independent of (without) nama; does nama depend on rupa to exist? i.e. our body including our brain, nervous system, etc. is made up of rupa (unconscious elemental matter/atoms/molecules) from the earth ... Is it the structure/configuration/system of these unconcious atoms/molecules/elemental matter (rupa elements) which creates (brings into existence) the experiencing/noetic/nama- having/thinking/concious subject? (same question extended ...) Is it the structure/configuration/system of these unconcious atoms/molecules/elemental matter (rupa elements) which creates the subject having the 4 Khandas (feeling, perception/rememberance, conciousness, cetasikas) which goes away with the dissolution of my body (consisting of rupa)? This (the latter; nama dependence on rupa) is evident by experiments of the body. Adding/taking away hormones and other brain chemicals can create/conjure/effect (artificial) feelings. lobotomies, old age, brain experiments, etc. have shown to effect ones perception, thinking and state of conciousness. what do you think? metta, nori 25126 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Sarah, > Perhaps as I wrote too with the Netti refs, proximate cause > (pada.t.thaana) can refer to 'necessary condition'? In this case, the > sutta ref RobK gave may be relevant. I suppose you could say that a proximate cause can refer to 'necessary condition' (don't know what that would be in Pali though) but I don't think it would be safe to say that *any* necessary condition is a proximate cause. I prefer to leave it to the traditional commentaries to define it. Since I haven't yet found any text that supports B.Bodhi's 'wise attention' as a proximate cause of pa~n~naa, I cannot accept it as Theravada doctrine. When one reads B.Bodhi's guide (p. 90) one can be easily led into thinking that the proximate cause as he defines it is the norm. However, his definitions of the characteristic, function, and manifestation of wisdom are quite okay. This is all part of my interest in determining the source of a statement -- whether it belongs to the Tipitaka, the Atthakathas, the Tikas, or is something said in a modern treatise. Best wishes, Jim 25127 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and sanskrit Dear Nina, > I mentioned pronunciation of Pali: I remember the Buddha telling the monks > about chanting not to chant in a certain way: drawing out voices long, etc. > I cannot remember where. > This may give a clue to pronunciation. > Nina. I think the passage you're thinking of is the one Mike posted two days ago (Hymns, etc) on the five dangers when chanting Dhamma. There is a good two page passage near the end of the Samantapaasaadikaa (pp. 1399-1400) that gets into phonetics (the terms are also defined in the Saddaniiti) and the correctness of pronunciation in legalistic matters and there is quite a lot of detail on the various ways in which Pali is mispronounced -- like the mistakes I see in the Thai spelling of Pali words. I'm afraid that I don't have the time to participate in this interesting discussion but thought the passage reference might be of interest to you. I'm on the side of Geiger and Buddhaghosa in these matters despite the criticism by most modern scholars (according to Edgerton). Best wishes, Jim 25128 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 4:56pm Subject: Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hi Christine and all, This is how I understand it: The Buddha's teaching with regard to "anatta" is that the aggregate is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Seeing oneself as a functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates is precisely the self-view that is to be abandoned. I could ask you in turn what this "something" that you are talking about. However I see this line of inquiry only leads more speculative thinking. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > [snip] > metta and peace > Christine 25129 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:40pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Dear Nina, > The Commentary to the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the > Threes, Ch 2, §15, ³The wheelright², deals with the > eradication of unwholesome courses of action > (kamma-patha) by the path-consciousness of the > subsequent stages of enlightenment. I understand from what you have written in this post, that Path Consciousness eradicates certain past akusala kamma-patha and also destroys tendencies for future akusala kamma-patha. I assume that the paramattha dhammas involved are the 'kilesas' and the conventional ways in which they manifest are the 'kamma-pathas.' (?) At Cooran, we read an article that referred briefly to this subject. It said that, according to the suttas, the function of destroying certain kilesas belongs to supramundane Right Speech and Right Action (no references were given). Apparently, there are no sutta references to the function of Right Livelihood in this regard.(?) My theory is that supramundane Right Lifestyle reduces and destroys the three mental kamma-pathas; covertness, ill- will and wrong views. > ... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which > are killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, > slandering and wrong view, are eradicated by the path- > consciousness of the ariyan who is sotåpanna. This accounts for the Sotapanna's inability to break the first four precepts but isn't he also incapable of breaking the fifth (intoxicants)? It seems to me that the fifth precept is basically about livelihood. A worldling is capable of wrong view; in other words, of refusing to heed the Buddha's teaching. By taking intoxicants, he can live in a way that ensures heedlessness. On the other hand, a Sotapanna is incapable of wilful heedlessness. This manifests in his lifestyle as an inability to consume intoxicants. (?) But other kilesas continue to cause heedlessness and so he can live as a householder in much the same way as a worldling can. As for the next two stages of enlightenment, I don't know how the destruction of kilesas manifest in lifestyle. However, I remember your saying some months ago, that after the fourth stage, the Arahant Ariyan is incapable of living as a lay-person. Before I devote too much time to this train of thought, please tell me if it is on the right track. Kind regards, Ken H 25130 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:50pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 13 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 13. 6. In the fifth dyad, understanding belonging to the first path is the "plane of seeing". Understanding belonging to the remaining three paths is the "plane of development" (see Ch. XXII, 127). So it is of two kinds as the planes of seeing and of development. ---------------- Vism. XXII, 127. (ii) The seeing of nibbana at the moment of the first path is "realizing as seeing". At the other path moments it is "realizing as developing". And it is intended as twofold here. So realizing of nibbana as seeing and as developing should be understood as a function of this knowledge. 25131 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13 Hi all, I wonder if an alternate understanding of "the plane of seeing" and "the plane of development" could be the sense sphere and the three other spheres. My main reason for that interpretation is that all the other "kinds of understanding" are very broad, each including the others. Larry ---------------------- "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 13. 6. In the fifth dyad, understanding belonging to the first path is the "plane of seeing". Understanding belonging to the remaining three paths is the "plane of development" (see Ch. XXII, 127). So it is of two kinds as the planes of seeing and of development. ---------------- Vism. XXII, 127. (ii) The seeing of nibbana at the moment of the first path is "realizing as seeing". At the other path moments it is "realizing as developing". And it is intended as twofold here. So realizing of nibbana as seeing and as developing should be understood as a function of this knowledge. 25132 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa In a message dated 9/8/2003 3:32:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Nina: [re: rupa...] it exists only for a moment and > then falls away. Its existing does not have to depend on our > experiencing, in fact, it has to arise shortly before the nama that > experiences it. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and can then not > be object of experience." > > Nori: So do you mean to say the chair I sit in does not exist all the time? > What is the evidence which led Buddha or anyone else to believe rupa > arises and falls away? > Hi Nori The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained impermanence in the fashion that abhidhamma thinking explains it. The Buddha said that:-- states arise, persist while changing, then cease. This explanation fits common sense observation about the way things rise and fall apart. For example, we are born, grow old, and die. The clock on my wall is not arising and immediately falling away. Its just hanging there slowly wearing out due to conditions. Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing stew that arises and ceases immediately afterward and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a continuity of slow change? Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or how it helps in insight development. The world is not perceived that way. I don't think insight is about "imagining theories." I have also never heard a reasonable explanation for what the cause of this type of impermanence is. (But would love to.) I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After all, originally there was no life on this planet, there was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of that." TG 25133 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:21pm Subject: discerning desire and aversion (need help) hi all, I am trying to clear up the terms 'desire' and 'aversion' as used in the tipitaka. I cannot see how desire and aversion in the conventional sense can be (or should be) eliminated. For example: If we found ourselves in a burning building, we would have 'aversion' to remaining in the burning building and so, we would leave; and thus our lives would be saved. If we had no 'aversion' and found comfort in the burning building, we would remain and burn to death. If we found ourselves in a desert and we were about to die from having no water then we would 'desire' water. Our 'desire' for wanting the water would get us to seek to possibly find water to survive. To a lesser degree, one can have 'aversion' to say, a dangerous, physically demanding job mining ore. Of course this person can suppress his 'aversion' to it, but then this person might end up suffering in these unfavorable conditions for the rest of his life. Through his 'aversion' to the job, he might go out and get a technical degree to get a easier job with less unfavorable conditions. ...and so 'desire' and 'aversion' are unavoidable and favorable at times, while they might cause periods of suffering. It is certainly the case that through these momentary periods of suffering, people gain the will to avoid a greater suffering. Is this the aversion and desire which is to be avoided (as referenced in the tipitaka)? Are we not to desire life and favorable conditions ? Are we not to have aversion to death and unfavorable conditions ? If not then what is the desire and aversion to which the tipitaka refers (to avoid and eliminate)? I would appreciate any help in clarification. peace and metta, nori 25134 From: Andrew Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:54pm Subject: Things worth adhering to Hi folks Reading through my Majjhima Nikaya, I came across some perplexing language in the Shorter Discourse on the Destruction of Craving (Culatanhasankhaya Sutta). Sakka, ruler of gods, has asked Buddha how a bhikkhu gets liberated from the destruction of craving. Buddha answers: "... a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. [Having heard this] he directly knows everything. Having directly known everything, he fully understands everything. Having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels ... he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings ... Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana." Bhikkhu Bodhi notes about the "adhering to" bit, that it means the 5 aggregates, 12 bases and 18 elements are not worth adhering to because they are impermanent. In fact, you CAN'T cling to them because they have changed even before you try. I was a bit confused by the use of "adhering" instead of "clinging". Why not say "nothing is worth clinging to"? Have I missed some distinction here? Have I missed the point? BTW Sakka sounds like your classic renovator god. Maha Moggallana went to visit him in his heavenly realm to discuss Dhamma, but Sakka was more interested in showing him around his lovely palace which has a hundred towers. That's alot of trips to the hardware store!! Metta Andrew 25135 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 7:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi TG, TG:"> I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After all, originally there > was no life on this planet, there was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of > that." Yes, common sense and observation seems to show us that nama is dependent on rupa and goes away once the structured rupa (i.e. our bodies, brain, nervous system) go into dissolution. However, it seems that the core of Theravada Buddhist doctrine is not in accord with this. I think what is claimed within the doctrine is that conciousness continues after dissolution of the body (and so not dependent on rupa). I think Sarah once told me that conciousness does indeed continue after dissolution of the body. Also the notion of many lives lived in succession, and rebirth are contrary to this (nama dependence on rupa). It would be really great if some great mind can clarify this for us. ------------------------- > Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing stew that arises and > ceases immediately afterward and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a > continuity of slow change? Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or how it helps > in insight development. The world is not perceived that way. Yes, I have also heard many things regarding this especially in the field of quantum theory; Matter going into a hazy state of "uncertainty" when not being observed, etc. e.g. "I believe that the existence of the classical "path" can be pregnantly formulated as follows: The "path" comes into existence only when we observe it. --Heisenberg, in uncertainty principle paper, 1927" But like you said I do not perceive it that way and "I'm not sure what the point is or how it helps in insight development." If there was some point to this that should be noted that beneficial and helps insight development, it would be cool if someone could demonstrate that for us. peace and metta, nori 25136 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 8:05pm Subject: kinds of understanding Hi all, Below is a list of "kinds of understanding" from the Vimuttimagga. This is one of Bh. Buddhaghosa's main commentarial sources and the only one to survive. You can see what he used, what he dropped and what he added. Also listed is what I think is possible canonical sources provided by the editor/translators of this edition. These are all given in pali. If someone would like more detail I could type some snips. 1. mundane and supramundane. 2. with/without cankers, Cp. Dhs. 125 para. 584 3. from thought, from study, from culture (bhaavana-maya pa~n~naa), D.III, 219 4. skill in profit, in loss, in means, D. III, 220 5. wisdom that accumulates, does not accumulate, neither accumulates nor does not accumulate, Cp. Vbh. 326 6. produced by one's own kamma, conforms to the truth, connected to the 4 paths, connected to the 4 fruits, Cp. Vbh. 328 7. wisdom of the sensuous element, of the form element, of the formless element, of the unfettered, Vbh. 329 8. of dhamma, of succession, of discrimination, general knowledge, D. III, 226 9. due to combination and not due to non-combination, due to non-combination and not to combination, due to combination and also non-combination, due to neither combination nor non-combination, Vbh. 330 10. due to aversion and not to penetration, due to penetration and not to aversion, due to aversion and also penetration, due to neither penetration nor aversion, Vbh. 330 11. analysis of meaning, of dhamma, of interpretation, of argument, Vbh. 293, 331 12. consequence of cause, cause, analysis of dhamma, knowledge in regard to knowledge (same as 11), Vbh. 293 13. of ill and cessation, of origin of ill and the path, etymological interpretation of the dhamma, analysis of argument (same as 11),Vbh. 293 14. knowledge of the dhamma (namely discourses, mixed verse and prose, expositions etc.), meaning (one knows the meaning of what is spoken), the meaning of what has been preached (analysis of interpretation), knowledge in regard to knowledge (analysis of argument) (same as 11), Vbh. 294 15. "of the dhamma" is in respect of the eye, eye-knowledge in respect of views is called analysis of views, interpreting what has been preached is analysis of interpretation, knowledge in regard to knowledge is analysis of argument (same as 11), Vbh. 296 16. of ill, of the origin of ill, of the ceasing of ill, of the path, D. III, 227 25137 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] address for Chinese CMA (Abhidammattha sangaha) Dear Sarah, op 08-09-2003 09:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > It’s good to appreciate that the namas and rupas at boot camp are no > more or less real and to be known than those now, whilst listening to > music or studying the texts. No self to view, just panna to understand and > know them when there are conditions and without expectation. Your reminder to Icaro also goes for us now. I especially like your last words: know them when there are conditions and without expectation. Expectations always creep in, don't they? We study about defining nama and rupa, and voila, there they are. When and how shall we be able to at least realize directly the difference between nama and rupa? And then what you wrote to Jim, and this is good for all of us; < On the other hand, I don’t think either of us agree that this kind of complicated non-solitary daily lifestyle is any obstacle for developing satipatthana or other kinds of wholesome states, including samatha in the beginning - especially as all these depend primarily on right understanding (panna) of one kind or other. I think if we consider daily life objects of samatha such as reflection on the Dhamma, the Buddha’s qualities, metta, death and so on, we can appreciate why panna rather than time and effort are the keys to the arising of wholesome states.> may I forward your quote on Magadha to Pali list whe it comes up? But from where is the quote: Sv15,387 (Pali), 1946 (Eng) ?? Nina. 25138 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Susan, I had to laugh: see below. op 08-09-2003 14:27 schreef susan macqueen op sues.greenbank@v...: > and if they are > not such good thoughts I do try and notice, but it's very difficult to grasp > sometimes as my big ego has led me most of my life. Nina: and me!!! I was just considering my dosa (aversion) on account of an unkind remark I had to hear. Clinging to the self. And also: we care what others think of us, again clinging to the self. We begin to notice this, and that is a good beginning. Maybe we had never considered all this before. We learnt thanks to the Buddha's teachings. We can think with gratefulness of the Buddha's qualities, that is a meditation for daily life. Also as Sarah said, Understanding is what helps most. Just reciting mantras, I do not see this as having much benefit. Unless you think of the Buddha while reciting. I did in Nepal. When I heard the sherpa's reciting Omani (mani: jewel) Padme (this means lotus: paduma) hum. Nina. 25139 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:09pm Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 11 B Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 11 B 11B: Sutta passage: Then the venerable Rahula thought, "Who indeed , after being personally exhorted by the Blessed One himself today, would go into the village for alms?" Turning back, he sat down at the foot of a certain tree, crossed his legs and, keeping his body upright, established mindfulness before him. ***** Commentary: athassa bhagavaa yasmaa na kevala.m ruupameva, vedanaadayopi eva.m da.t.thabbaa, Then, because Rahula should not only know matter, but also feelings, etc. in that way, tasmaa ruupampi raahulaatiaadimaaha. the Blessed One said because of this to him, "also matter, Rahula, ...² and so on. ko najjaati ko nu ajja. The words ³ko n'ajja², mean: ko nu ajja, "who would today." therassa kira etadahosi ``sammaasambuddho mayha.m attabhaavanissita.m chandaraaga.m ~natvaa This occurred to the Thera (Rahula): "The Buddha, the Exalted One, who knows my attachment with regard to the body `sama.nena naama evaruupo vitakko na vitakkitabbo'ti neva pariyaayena katha.m kathesi, did not give a round-about talk, saying, 'A monk should not have such a thought.' gaccha bhikkhu raahula.m vadehi `maa puna evaruupa.m vitakka.m vitakkesii'ti na duuta.m pesesi. He did not send a messenger with the words, ŒGo bhikkhu and say to Rahula, do not think again such a thought.¹ ma.m sammukkhe .thatvaayeva pana But he put me in front of him, sabha.n.daka.m cora.m cuu.laaya ga.nhanto viya just as one would grab a thief with his (stolen) wares by his topknot, sammukhaa sugatovaada.m adaasi. and he personally gave me a Blessed One's exhortation. sugatovaado ca naama asa"nkheyyehipi kappehi dullabho. It is truly difficult to receive a Blessed One's exhortation even in the course of countless aeons. evaruupassa buddhassa sammukhaa ovaada.m labhitvaa ko nu vi~n~nuu pa.n.ditajaatiko ajja gaama.m pi.n.daaya pavisissatii''ti. Whoever is intelligent, of a wise disposition, would, after being personally exhorted by such a Blessed One, go today into the village for alms?" athesa aayasmaa aahaarakicca.m pahaaya Then this venerable person, after he had abandoned the task of (receiving) almsfood, yasmi.m nisinna.t.thaane .thitena ovaado laddho, tatova pa.tinivattetvaa and after he had turned back again from the sitting place where he had remained to receive the exhortation, a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisiidi. sat down at the foot of a certain tree. bhagavaapi ta.m aayasmanta.m nivattamaana.m disvaa na evamaaha -- When the Blessed One saw that the venerable Rahula had turned back, he did not say to him: ``maa nivatta taava, raahula, bhikkhaacaarakaalo te''ti. ³Do not turn back, Rahula, because it is the time for you to receive almsfood.² kasmaa? eva.m kirassa ahosi -- ``ajja taava kaayagataasatiamatabhojana.m bhu~njatuu''ti. Why? It may have occurred to the Buddha: " May he today eat the food of Deathlessness, namely, Mindfulness of the Body.² ***** English: Then, because Rahula should not only know matter, but also feelings, etc. in that way, the Blessed One said because of this to him, "also matter, Rahula, ...² and so on. The words ³ko n'ajja², mean: ko nu ajja, "who would today." This occurred to the Thera (Rahula): "The Buddha, the Exalted One, who knows my attachment with regard to the body did not give a round-about talk, saying, 'A monk should not have such a thought.' He did not send a messenger with the words, ŒGo bhikkhu and say to Rahula, do not think again such a thought.¹ But he put me in front of him, just as one would grab a thief with his (stolen) wares by his topknot, and he personally gave me a Blessed One's exhortation. It is truly difficult to receive a Blessed One's exhortation even in the course of countless aeons. Whoever is intelligent, of a wise disposition, would, after being personally exhorted by such a Blessed One, go today into the village for alms?" Then this venerable person, after he had abandoned the task of (receiving) almsfood, and after he had turned back again from the sitting place where he had remained to receive the exhortation, sat down at the foot of a certain tree. When the Blessed One saw that the venerable Rahula had turned back, he did not say to him: ³Do not turn back, Rahula, because it is the time for you to receive almsfood.² Why? It may have occurred to the Buddha: " May he today eat the food of Deathlessness, namely, Mindfulness of the Body.² ****** Nina. 25140 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Dear Sarah, Jim and friends, I have been reflecting on samadhi. It can also refer to lokuttara panna. When magga-citta arises and experiences nibbana, the accompanying samadhi can be compared to the strength of jhana, nibbana is experienced with absorption. Proximate cause I would see here as arising at the same time. As discussed before, not always is proximate cause arising before the reality it is the proximate cause of. In the case of mundane panna: it certainly performs a function, focussing on the object so that panna can know it. It is right concentration accompanying right understanding, they arise together. For those who also develop jhana and insight, the jhana can be proximate cause in the sense of being the base for insight. Jhana is then the object of insight. Nina. op 08-09-2003 10:33 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: quote from Jim: > I just like to add that 'the four truths' is considered an alternative >> proximate cause of wisdom (catusaccapada.t.thaana) to the more usual >> samaadhipada.t.thaana according to some texts. 25141 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa In a message dated 9/8/2003 7:23:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Yes, common sense and observation seems to show us that nama is > dependent on rupa and goes away once the structured rupa (i.e. our > bodies, brain, nervous system) go into dissolution. > > However, it seems that the core of Theravada Buddhist doctrine is not > in accord with this. I think what is claimed within the doctrine is > that conciousness continues after dissolution of the body (and so not > dependent on rupa). I think Sarah once told me that conciousness does > indeed continue after dissolution of the body. Also the notion of > many lives lived in succession, and rebirth are contrary to this > (nama dependence on rupa). > Hi Nori If consciousness is thought of as an energy, then it can continue "on its own" for a temporary period of time as something "propelled by" Rupa. Something like spinning a top. The top needs a string to be pulled in order for it to spin. But the top continues to spin after the string no longer contacts it based on the momentum provided by the string. When it runs out of momentum it needs to be pulled by the string again. The mind does not run out of momentum as long as craving keeps "spinning it." TG 25142 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] discerning desire and aversion (need help) In a message dated 9/8/2003 6:24:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > ...and so 'desire' and 'aversion' are unavoidable and favorable at > times, while they might cause periods of suffering. It is certainly > the case that through these momentary periods of suffering, people > gain the will to avoid a greater suffering. > > Is this the aversion and desire which is to be avoided (as referenced > in the tipitaka)? > > Are we not to desire life and favorable conditions ? > > Are we not to have aversion to death and unfavorable conditions ? > Hi Nori The Buddha said... "What most people see as happiness, I see as sadness. What most people see as sadness, I see as a happiness. Behold a teaching that is hard to understand." The Buddha does not see "selves." The Buddha sees conditions. If there were actually "selves," than your analysis would be correct. But Buddha taught that "self-view" is a delusion, and there are actually only conditions. The continuation of conditions that lead to suffering, death, disease, grief, disappointment, etc. is seen as unsatifactory and best to be avoided. Avoiding these states through insight ends the cycle of delusion and results in peace. TG 25143 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 11:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: >> > Hi Nori > > The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained impermanence in the fashion that > abhidhamma thinking explains it. > I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After all, originally there > was no life on this planet, there was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of > that." > > TG > >++++++++++ Dear TG, Just a couple of points. The Abhidhamma is the teaching of the Buddha so I think he must have explained it that way. Where did you read that nama(mentality) grew out of rupa(matter)? In the Digha Nikaya (On Knowledge of Beginnings, trans. Walshe, 1987) the Buddha very tersely gives an account of the origins of this universe, the planet, and of the human race: ""There comes a time when, sooner or later, after a very long period, this universe contracts [and is destroyed]. At a time of contraction beings are mostly born in the Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious - and they stay like that for a very long period. But sooner or later, after a very long period, the universe begins to expand again…. At that period [when a new universe is beginning] there was just one mass of fluidity and all was darkness, blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared (or; were manifest) no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not distinguished, nor months and fortnights, no years or seasons, and no male or female, beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner or later, after a very long period, savoury earth spread itself over the water where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that spreads itself over hot milk as it cools...." (1987, pp.409-410). Later the beings taste the nutritive foam. They then take on coarse material bodies. These 'mind-made' beings, in the brahma world have no rupa. The earth is already formed when they take rebirth there. RobertK 25144 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: kinds of understanding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Below is a list of "kinds of understanding" from the Vimuttimagga. This > is one of Bh. Buddhaghosa's main commentarial sources and the only one > to survive. ____ Dear Larry, Could you cite where Buddhaghosa says he used the Vimuttimagga as one of his main references. Robertk 25145 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 0:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi TG, You wrote to Nori: -------------- > The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained > impermanence in the fashion that > abhidhamma thinking explains it. -------------- This is a surprising thing to read. -------------- > The Buddha said that:-- states arise, > persist while changing, then cease. -------------- Sounds like Abhidhamma to me. -------------- > This explanation fits common sense observation > about the way things rise and fall apart. For example, > we are born, grow old, and die. -------------- Are you suggesting that the 'states' that rise, persist, then cease, include living beings? You must be aware that the Buddha referred to living beings only by way of conventional designation -- that in reality, only the five khandhas exist. (?) In the reality taught by the Buddha, living beings do not rise, persist and fall away. According to the Buddha (in the suttas and the Abhidhamma), living beings are mere conventional designations -- figures of speech. --------------- > The clock on my wall is not arising and immediately > falling away. --------------- No, because 'clock' is a conventional designation for the visible object (or audible object etc.) that arises in the rupa khandha. What is 'arising and immediately falling away' is the rupa that is conventionally designated 'clock,' . ------------ > Its just hanging there slowly wearing out due to > conditions. ------------- This is not Dhamma, this is mere, conventional reality. ------------- > Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing > stew that arises and ceases immediately afterward -------------- Yes, modern science says that matter rises, persists and falls away in a nano-second. (Reminiscent of rupa, isn't it?) ------------ > and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a > continuity of slow change? ------------- You seem to be rejecting modern science in favour of Newtonian science. (Neither is Dhamma, of course.) --------------- > Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or how it > helps in insight development. -------------- There can be no insight into nama and rupa while you are thinking (in mere figures of speech). -------------- > The world is not perceived that way. --------------- It is by a Buddha. --------------- > I don't think insight is about "imagining theories." --------------- The only imagined theories here are "living being" and "clock." --------------- > I have also never heard a reasonable explanation for > what the cause of this type of impermanence is. (But > would love to.) ----------------- Why do you want to know the cause of impermanence? --------------- > I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After > all, originally there was no life on this planet, there > was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of that." ------------- To borrow your words; 'The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained impermanence in the fashion that [your] thinking explains it.' Kind regards, Ken H 25146 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Nori, (Dan, Kom, Ray & All), --- norakat147 wrote: > Sorry for the non-specific, vague, open questions. .... Your questions are all very good ones, Nori;-) It’s a kind of therapy for me to try and respond. .... > Of course, to live somewhere means also to be engulfed in the > collective conciousness of that region. The dominant beliefs and > views of a nation/country/area creates its culture (i.e. its > behavior, its way of life), its laws, its feelings/emotions (toward > things), its conversations, its media, etc. > > Thoughts beget like thoughts. > > It is difficult and painful (not to mention lonely) to maintain > individuality somewhere, especially if you are against the grain. It > is also inevitable that maintaining constant contact/interaction with > a culture will result in some sort of influence. > > Just as association with the unbeloved is dukkha, so it is with an > unbeloved culture and nation (no offense to anyone). ..... Dan raised one good counter-question (Dan, hope you all had a good move and hope to hear more from you on this or other threads;-)) It’s true that we read amongst the greatest blessings (Maha Mangala sutta)about the value of associating with the wise, not the foolish and residing in a suitable place and so on. In a sutta I quoted from briefly yesterday (AN,X.61,62 p254 in ‘Numerical Discourses of the Buddha’, we read about the importance of ‘listening to the true Dhamma’., ‘association with superior people’ and so on. I also think we have to understand the real problems and cause of dukkha at this very moment rather than thinking about another time or place. So often when we feel lonely or misunderstood, it shows the deep clinging to oneself. No metta or understanding at these times. I really like the sutta Ray quoted a lot: Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.206 Chappana Sutta The Six Animals (I also compared BBodhi’s translation on p1255, vol1SN) With non-restraint like the six animals, aren’t we intent upon the pleasant forms, sounds....mental phenomena and so on and repelled by the displeasing ones? Without mindfulness and detachment, don’t we wander round like the ‘foul village thorn’*? *Spk (commentary): he is a ‘foul village-thorn’: ‘foul’ in the sense of imure, a ‘village thorn’ in the sense of wounding the villagers[Spk-p.t: that is, oppressing them by accepting their services while being unworthy of them]. ..... > I imagined that a Theravada Buddhist dominated country would also > form/influence its culture (i.e. its behavior, its way of life) and > laws based on its (Theravada Buddhist) views to a great degree, which > is more akin to me. I thought that being in the presence of such an > influenced culture/peoples would be more conducive to ending dukkha, > since the dhamma is contained within it - the prevalent culture (i.e. > its behavior, its way of life). > > If this were the case, you would not have to constantly swim against > the current. ..... Nori, I understand just what you’re saying and certainly I’ve learnt a lot from time I’ve spent in Theravada Buddhist countries and friends. On the other hand, I think the real meaning of swimming against the current relates to our own ignorance and wrong views rather than to those around us. Like in the sutta, the swimming against the current is the swimming against the unrestraint as shown by the example of the six animals. .... > If this were the case maybe you can learn dhamma just by observing > the behavior of others and how they live; simply by being in their > presence. The greatest prize being that association with them (in- > itself) would not be dukkha. ..... I’d love Kom or Dan to add more comments. I do agree that we can learn a lot from the examples of wise companions. I feel I’ve been very, very fortunate in this regard (the wise companionship), but I’m also aware that so often our kilesa (defilements) make it difficult to appreciate wise words and actions often when they’re right in front of us. I can read a sutta like the Chappana sutta, theoretically appreciate the wise words and good companionship that brought it to my attention and then lobha will chase after visible objects, sounds and tastes immediately afterwards again as usual. Nori, in your follow-up comment to Dan you mentioned more about the influence of those around you and I think you were referring to the difficulty of withstanding these influences. I’m sure we can all relate to this. However, even at these times of ‘acquiring sensual pleasures’ as you referred to, there can be awareness. Lobha is just a mental state that can be known. It’s not an ‘individual’ or ‘Nori’. I mentioned before that until the last couple of years I had a very busy workload. Khun Sujin visited and stayed with us several times in Hong Kong during some particularly hectic years. I remember on one of her visits I was rather stressed out and exhausted and Jon also asked questions about sati (mindfulness) at work. Never once did she suggest we might ‘take it easy’, ‘have a holiday’, ‘cut down work’, ‘read more Abhidhamma’, ‘learn Pali’, or ‘consider an altenative lifestyle’. Instead she’d just smile, seemingly unconcerned and give reminders about present realities such as seeing, lobha (attachment), dosa(aversion), thinking and anatta. She’d encourage metta, kindness and understanding for those we came into contact with. The emphasis was always on the present moment and detachment from those phenomena -- the namas and rupas -- conditioned already. Nina translated these lines from the Maharahulavada commentary “anatthajanano lobho, lobho cittappakopano. Desire leads to harm, it agitates the mind, bhayamantarato jaata.m, ta.m jano naavabujjhati. peril occurs within, but people do not understand this. luddho attha.m na jaanaati, luddho dhamma.m na passati. The person with desire does not know cause and effect. * andhatama.m tadaa hoti, ya.m lobho sahate nara.m.. (itivu 88) -- There is dense darkness when desire overwhelms people.” Nina adds:* the person with attachment does not understand the cause (dhamma as cause,hetu) of dukkha, which is craving, nor the effect (attha) which is dukkha. He does not understand the noble Truths and thus there will not be the cessation of dukkha. ****** Also as Mike wrote to you before on another thread: "I" is the problem, whether socially or individually. When hatred and greed are present, clinging to self is never far away. When understanding is present, ignorance, hatred and greed are not and can't contribute to the horrors you mentioned above. That's why I think that bhavana (and especially di.t.thujukamma, the correction of views) is the best way to approach the problems of the world, whether on an individual or social basis.” Hope we can visit some of us in Asia one day, Nori. Please keep up your important (and challenging;-)) questions for which I sincerely thank you. Metta, Sarah ===== 25147 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) [For any newcomers, CMA often quoted on DSG, refers to B.Bodhi’s translation of the Abhidammattha Sangaha, titled ‘Compendium Manual of Abhidhamma’ with guide notes. The original text is an important 12th century treatise or compilation of Abhidhamma by Acariya Anuruddha, and has always been highly esteemed by Theravada Buddhists] ***** Hi Howard (& Larry), Sorry for the delay. --- upasaka@a... wrote: S:> > 2. In the case of concepts experienced as arammana (object),they are not cittas, cetasikas or rupas which have just fallen away like the other > > objects. They never existed, were never experienced through the sense > > doors and never themselves experienced other namas or rupas. > > > > > ========================= H: > I'm afraid this makes *no* sense to me. Besides nibbana, all > there are > are cittas, cetasikas,and rupas. Concepts, it is repeatedly asserted, do > not > exist. What does not exist can NOT and is NOT taken as an object. ..... I appreciate the apparent paradox. However, I think it’s very clear that when we think, concepts are the objects. Just so that you know I’m not making anything up, let me direct you to some relevant pages in CMA which I know you have open these days;-) Ch111, 16 (p135) Analysis of Objects: “In the compendium of objects, there are six kinds of objects, namely visible form object, sound object, smell object, taste object, tangible object, and mental object. ......But mental object is sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness, mental factors, Nibbana, and concepts (pa~n~natti).” B.Bodhi writes in the Guide to these lines: “Concepts - the class of conventional realities, things which do not exist in the ultimate sense - also fall into the category of mental object.” In the next paragraph: 17 Classification by way of Doors “For all types of eye-door consciousness, visible form alone is the object, and that pertains only to the present. Likewise sounds, etc.... But the object of mind-door consciousness is of six kinds, and that object may be present, past, future, or independent of time, according to circumstances.” ..... > Anything > asserted, positive or negative,about a non-existent, is literally either > false or > meaningless (or is a shorthand for an assertion quite different from the > face > value of the given assertion). ..... We can talk about different kinds of concepts and we think and talk about them all day - but they are only concepts, at best conventional truths. .... >If there are no concepts, then there are > no > concepts .. period. What we actually experience is what we actually > experience. .... There are concepts experienced, but as they are only conceived and are not actualities with sabhava and characteristics and are not conditioned, they cannot be ‘known’ as such. ..... > If we *think* that we are experiencing something that does not exist, > then we > are simply deluded in that respect, and we should not speak of cognizing > what > does not exist. ..... I agree that if these are taken to ‘exist’ then we are deluded. However, this doesn’t mean they are not experienced (cognized?). ..... To say "I am thinking of a tree" is merely to describe > the > nature of the flow of one's thoughts in a metaphorical fashion. Taken > literally, > it is simply false. ..... Thinking (i.e the cittas and cetasikas involved) are real. The concepts thought about are really thought about or experienced. .... > The thing is, however, it seems to me that when you say "concept" > you > refer to the alleged referent of what I mean when I say "concept". To > me, a > concept is an internal mental phenomenon collection of such. [...] >When one says that concepts don't exist, I > take > that to mean that, with the exception of concepts of paramattha dhammas, > it is > the alleged *referents* of concepts that do not exist. The concepts, > themselves, per se, are thoughts - internal sankharic creations, most > likely > sa~n~na-created mental tags. ..... Mostly I agree with what you say, Howard (esp. the snipped part;-)) and the importance of sanna, vitakka, vicara (and other mental factors) accompanying the cittas at the times when concepts are experienced. When one says concepts don’t exist, it means ALL concepts (not just referents) do not have any existence at all other than conventionally speaking. At the moments of thinking ‘there is a tree’, what can actually be directly known? Only thinking, but not the thought or concepts. I’m not trying to complicate matters, Howard and I’m aware of how frustrating these comments probably are to many people. (Actually, I hesitated to reply further at all;-)). You might find one of these posts from UP (Nina, RobK and Jon) explains more clearly and with more detail: ***** Thinking & Thought 15685, 22253, 22403, 22571 ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 25148 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi Howard (Christine, Ray, RobK & All), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Of course, I do not at *all* dismiss the role of accumulations in > the > case of the mentally deficient person or in other cases. Conditions, all > the > necessary conditions, must be in place for any event to occur, including > stream > entry. But what they are in a specific case is usually indiscernible for > us, > and to assume that for stream entry they must include having had more or > less > direct contact with Abhidhamma teachings during some lifetime or other > strikes > me as a BIG presumption. ...... I appreciate your point and perhaps it depends what we call ‘Abhidhamma teachings’ too. As TG and others have pointed out, the entire depth of the teachings is contained in the suttas and these, understood properly, contain all that we need to know, i.e the truth about anatta and conditioned dhammas. However, as RobK pointed out, for those of us who are slow in understanding today, we need to hear many details for any hope of attainment in this life or future lives. You gave the example (identified thx to Rob & Ray) of Culapantaka (Little Wayman) (Dhp-a, verse 25, also Jataka 4).You suggested he was not well-versed in the Abhidhamma and you may be right. However, there are always so many factors and details we don’t know and as I tried to show in Bahiya’s case, the conditions and right factors have been developing over aeons and sasanas. In this case, we do read: - his older brother used to accompany his grandfather (with whom both brothers lived) to listen to the Buddha (and would then return home to Culapantaka). - as a result of the visits and what he heard, the older brother became a monk under the Buddha with his grandfather’s blessing. The grandfather also had great confidence in the teachings. - the older brother learnt by heart a large part of the teachings and attained arahantship. - encouraged by his older brother, Culapantaka ordained. His brother ‘established’ him in the ‘moral precepts’. - Culapantaka had also ordained under Buddha Kassapa and even then ‘possessed great wisdom’, but had ridiculed another monk for being a dullard and as a result was unable to learn a simple verse in this life. - even though his brother was an arahant, he was unable to know what he needed to hear (cf Sariputta and the golden lotus Jataka). In this case, his brother even expelled him from the Sangha. - the Buddha understood his ‘accumulations’ from past lives including his knowledge of impermanence, gave him the cloth to rub, uttered the verses on the impurity of lust, hatred and delusion and Culapantaka attained arahantship with the 4 patisambhidas (knowledges) and also ‘a knowledge of the THREE PITAKAS’ which immediately are apparent to those with the patisambhidas. - a little later Culapantaka ‘like a young lion roaring a lion’s roar, pronounced the words of thanksgiving, ranging through the whole of the Three Pitakas.’ With metta, Sarah ===== > > Accumulations or habitual tendencies are so very complicated and so > often > > the picture we get is a very limited one. Taking the case of Bahiya, > we > > read about the seemingly simple life of a man dressed in lower > garments > > made from bark and hiding in the forest. We read that he was > > well-respected and provided for, but convinced erroneously that he was > an > > arahant until the visit of the Brahma. > > > > > > > > As I also mentioned in the last post, Bahiya had listened to > > 'Dhamma-teaching' from previous Buddhas and also to anagamis > > (non-returners) in deva realms. So while it might seem from the sutta > that > > he was also not well-versed in the Abhidhamma, from all his previously > > accumulated knowledge,jhanic abilities and other kusala kamma, he was > able > > to fully penetrate the succinct summary of the Abhidhamma in the brief > > words as I understand. > > > > Look forward to any comments, > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah 25149 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hi, Victor (and Christine) - In a message dated 9/8/03 7:59:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Christine and all, > > This is how I understand it: > The Buddha's teaching with regard to "anatta" is that the aggregate > is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This > is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Seeing oneself > as a functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates is > precisely the self-view that is to be abandoned. > > I could ask you in turn what this "something" that you are talking > about. However I see this line of inquiry only leads more > speculative thinking. > > Peace, > Victor > > ========================= As I understand your perspective on the teaching, Victor, you are saying that whatever we turn to, anything whatsoever, should be seen as not me and not mine. You are saying that it is wrong to say anything along the lines of "I am merely such & such," because that already presumes an "I" that is something or other, and it is wrong as well to say anything along the lines of "I am not such and such," because that also presumes an "I" that fails to be something or other. It is *right* simply to assert that nothing whatsoever is me or mine, to stop thinking and talking along the lines of what an alleged self might or might not be, to pragmatically stop speculation and let go of that whole matter. Is that basically correct? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25150 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi, TG (and Nori) - In a message dated 9/8/03 9:21:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Nori > > The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained impermanence in the fashion > that > abhidhamma thinking explains it. The Buddha said that:-- states arise, > persist while changing, then cease. This explanation fits common sense > observation > about the way things rise and fall apart. For example, we are born, grow > old, and die. The clock on my wall is not arising and immediately falling > away. > Its just hanging there slowly wearing out due to conditions. > > Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing stew that arises and > ceases immediately afterward and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a > continuity of slow change? Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or > how it helps > in insight development. The world is not perceived that way. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Not ususally, but I believe that it can be so perceived. It has been my experience that with deep concentration and heightened mindfulness, it is possible to observe the flow of dhammas at a more "microscopic" level, closer to, if not at, the level of "paramattha dhammas" than the usual macroscopic-conceptual level of observation. The Goenka/U Ba Khin bodily-sensation meditation approach gives one an entree to this. ------------------------------------------------------- I don't think > > insight is about "imagining theories." I have also never heard a reasonable > > explanation for what the cause of this type of impermanence is. (But would > love to.) > > I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After all, originally > there > was no life on this planet, there was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of > that." > > TG =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25151 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, I’m rather behind on replies and I have no time now, so I’ll look at this thread later. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Is it perhaps in the Peg sutta, I could not find this one. Rob K and > Sarah > quoted this, it is about the decline of the teachings, preferring > poetical > language to the scriptures. Please see RobK’s post at this link which contains the sutta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6569 The sutta is a wonderful reminder. It should be quoted often, I think. Metta, Sarah p.s the other quotes I gave which you asked about were from the Sammohavinodani, Nanamoli transl, ch11 ‘Class of the Path’, p.39,40. (Sv320 etc - I try to copy Jim’s example when I write to him- I know he uses the Pali;-)) ====== 25152 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 7:45am Subject: Evam Me Vuttam, Thus Was Spoken By Me: ...Joyce Short Suttam Dear Dhamma friends How are you? Evam me vuttam. Thus was spoken by me once upon a time on the Internet - in response to Joyce Short's request for Mahayana sects I might have invented. Joyce Short wrote: "How intriguing, but I'm not sure what we have. Perhaps you could give specific examples of what Mahayana sects you invented, what statements in what Suttas you interpreted in absolute terms and your personal opinions and what names you then gave them?" Verily, I spoke the following in reply to Joyce. It was merely a very, very bizarre idea. And it was not worth going all the way inventing them because they would have proved to merely be systems of personal opinions and half-truths. In addition, the bizarre project would have died out like most breakaway personal sects did. For example, the Sanskrit texts of Sarvaasthivaada sect are now available only in fragments. You would find it very hard to name someone who follows it today. And who are Puggalavaadins, these days? And most bizarrely, those so-called Hinayana sects were kept alive only by some Mahayana sects to demonstrate that the latter were better than the former. And it was done before telling which later Mahayana sects were better than which previous ones, according to Yamakami's "Systems of Buddhistic Thoughts". Interestingly, Yamakami did not dare to include (or was not equipped to include) the original mainstream Buddhism popularly known as Theravada among his sysytems of Buddhistic thoughts in his book. If he did, it would have amounted to saying that the teachings of a Mahayana sect leader who was alledgely a bodhisattva were better than Pali Tipi.taka taught by Gotama The Historical Buddha. Yes, to say that the teachings of alledged bodhisattvas, namely Mahayana Buddhism, were better than the teachings of Gotama the Real Buddha would indeed be the most ridiculous thing to say. Therefore, I will have to disappoint you regarding your request for Mahayana sects I might have invented. The one thing I can offer you, though, is bodhiology that is a scientific experimental system solidly based on Pali Tipi.taka. It is specially developed for those who are totally impervious to any religion, but who might need the insights and methods of Gotama the Real Buddha in a non-religious format or a scientific format. Unlike the Mahayana sects, bodhiology isn't offered as something to transcend the teachings of the Buddha. Far from it, bodhiology uses science to preserve and promote the teachings of Gotama the Real Buddha. Cheers, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends How are you? Evam me vuttam. Thus was spoken by me - in response to TG once upon a time on the Internet. There you have it! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear TG, Elias, and all > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Elias > > First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight > in > Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as > it would > appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop > wisdom, > 25153 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the proximate cause of wisdom Dear Connie, Thank-you for your suggestions. I was just talking to my neighbour about the bee problem and apparently he's been having the same problem and getting stung too. He says they are yellowjackets (wasps). I went to an internet information page on them at: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2075.htmland and found the following: "Although yellowjackets are considered quite beneficial to agriculture since they feed abundantly on harmful flies and caterpillars, it is their boldness (sometimes aggressiveness) and painful stinging ability that cause most concern. Nevertheless, unless the threat of stings and nest location present a hazard, it is often best to wait for Mother Nature, with freezing temperatures in late November and December, to kill off these annual colonies. Stinging workers do not survive the winter and the same nest is not reused." I think this is probably the best advice as the freezing temperatures will start here early next month. During the meantime when I work outside I can wear protective clothing. I also happen to have a beekeeper's netted hat. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, > > May I add to wear white or other light colored cotton clothes and to > avoid dark colors and wool when you deal with the bees. You might want > to stuff your pant legs into your socks or tie off the bottom of them > down around your boots. Maybe gloves with rubber bands around your > sleeves. Something to tie onto your head and have hanging down. Not > sure what to suggest for a veil. 25154 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Dear Larry, op 09-09-2003 02:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I wonder if an alternate understanding of "the plane of seeing" and "the > plane of development" could be the sense sphere and the three other > spheres. My main reason for that interpretation is that all the other > "kinds of understanding" are very broad, each including the others. N: In this context they both refer to lokuttara panna. See also the relevant subco. But when reading on Vis. XXII, 128: after your quote: <(d) And two developings are reckoned: but developing is also reckoned as twofild, namely as (i) mundane developing and (ii) as supramundane developing. (1) Herein, the arousing of mundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by their means, is mundane developing. And (ii) the arousing of supramundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by them is supramundane developing.> The Vis. then states that in this context (the end of Ch XXII) the supramundane developing is intended here. Nina. 25155 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Dear Ken, op 09-09-2003 02:40 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > I understand from what you have written in this post, > that Path Consciousness eradicates certain past akusala > kamma-patha and also destroys tendencies for future > akusala kamma-patha. I assume that the paramattha > dhammas involved are the 'kilesas' and the conventional > ways in which they manifest are the 'kamma-pathas.' (?) N: Latent tendencies (not past kammas) are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment. It means that there are no more conditions for the committing of akusala kamma, depending on the stage which is reached. You say,< the conventional > ways in which they manifest are the 'kamma-pathas.' > Kamma-patha is mental it is the cetasika which is cetana, intention. I do not see it as conventional truth. But perhaps you think of the whole situation? K: At Cooran, we read an article that referred briefly to > this subject. It said that, according to the suttas, > the function of destroying certain kilesas belongs to > supramundane Right Speech and Right Action (no references > were given). N: Not just these two: panna takes the lead, and the other Path factors asist performing their functions. The text of the Dhamma Issue: K:Apparently, there are no sutta references > to the function of Right Livelihood in this regard.(?) N: Right Livelihood is wrong action and wrong speech committed for the sake of earning one's living, and for the monks: for the sake of obtaining the requisites. K:My > theory is that supramundane Right Lifestyle reduces and > destroys the three mental kamma-pathas; covertness, ill- > will and wrong views. N: I do not think we should take right livelihood separately for this function. We have to take into account all Path factors. K: ... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which >> are killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, >> slandering and wrong view, are eradicated by the path- >> consciousness of the ariyan who is sotåpanna. N: Slandering is completely eradicated by the anagami, but it is attenuated by the sotapanna, as was shown. It does not have the intensity of a complete action anymore. No intention to divide people. K: This accounts for the Sotapanna's inability to break the > first four precepts but isn't he also incapable of > breaking the fifth (intoxicants)? N: Right. K: It seems to me that the fifth precept is basically about > livelihood. N: We read in the Co to the "Minor Sayings", the "Illustrator of ultimate Meaning", that the transgression of one of the precepts conditions the transgression of each of the others. As you say: heedlessness. When drunk, you may also easily kill, steal, etc. Not just wrong livelihood. > K: On the other hand, a Sotapanna is incapable of wilful > heedlessness. This manifests in his lifestyle as an > inability to consume intoxicants. (?) But other kilesas > continue to cause heedlessness. N: It depends to what degree. Lodewijk drinks wine with his meals and once a friend suggested that even a sip is akusala kamma. I asked A. Sujin and she said: does he take wine in order to get drunk? There is a difference here. K: As for the next two stages of enlightenment, I don't know > how the destruction of kilesas manifest in lifestyle. > However, I remember your saying some months ago, that > after the fourth stage, the Arahant Ariyan is incapable > of living as a lay-person. K: Also the anagami who has eradicated attachment to sensepleasures has no inclination to live in a house, I understood. Maybe a cabin :-) The arahat: See Dhamma Issues Ch 6, about Milinda's questions: <³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh Division, no 2, explains clearly that a layman who attains arahatship but who does not become a monk must attain parinibbåna on that very day. > The arahat has no longer conditions to be a layman. I liked the Cooran reports, but was the place Andrew's farm? I would have liked more details. Nina. 25156 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]Vimuttimagga Dear Larry and Sarah. Larry, thank you for the list. It contains much also from Vibh, but for now I keep to subco no 8, which is very compact, includes a lot and takes me back and forth to Vis further on, to Vibh, to Netti. As to Vimuttimagga, this is not canonical. I know very little about it, and do not know whether Buddhaghosa used it. It may be interesting to compare Vimuttimagga with Visuddhimagga, but we are so busy now with canonical texts, that I rather keep to these. Buddhaghosa: He just edited the very ancient commentaries he found in the Great Monastery of Anuradhapura. He edited and translated Co to all parts of the Tipitaka and these survive!!!. He did not drop or add anything. Once or twice he had his own opinion and then he mentioned it. Question to Sarah: you wrote before that also the ancient commentaries were rehearsed at the Great Councils. Where could I find a reference to this? It would be helpful. Nina. op 09-09-2003 05:05 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Below is a list of "kinds of understanding" from the Vimuttimagga. This > is one of Bh. Buddhaghosa's main commentarial sources and the only one > to survive. You can see what he used, what he dropped and what he added. 25157 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Connie, op 08-09-2003 19:56 schreef connie op nichicon@h...: > I don't know if I have the whole Velthuis list, but the symbols I have > now are: > > 1/4 = .l 1.2 = .m 3/4 = Aa > superscripted: 0 = .n 1 = .d 2 = ii 3 = uu > combined +_ = aa > u w/long tail in front = .t > Plus the Spanish ~n of course, but it looks as expected on my screen. N: there is one lacking: n with a dot on top: "n , and the word that has it: sorry, it comes later, it is in the para that has ko n'ajja (in red), <``ko najja {ko nujja (syaa0 ka.m0)} bhagavataa sammukhaa ovaadena ovadito gaama.m pi.n.daaya pavisissatii''ti tato pa.tinivattitvaa a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisiidi palla"nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa. addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputto aayasmanta.m raahula.m a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisinna.m palla"nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa .> Do you see the word palla"nka.m, in the forelast sentence? That is the sign. I see that the symbols come over differently on your computer. Therefore, it is still safer to write the spanish ñ as: ~n I hope this helps. Yes the grammar: I also have to keep coming back to it. It comes while reading, then it makes more sense. Nina. P.S. How is it with you, Sarah? 25158 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 1:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Hello Nina (Ken) and all, I was interested to read these sentences below: "Lodewijk drinks wine with his meals and once a friend suggested that even a sip is akusala kamma. I asked A. Sujin and she said: does he take wine in order to get drunk? There is a difference here." This is very thought provoking. At what point (according to Abhidhamma teachings) that intoxicants have been taken at a sufficient level to impinge on awareness of the present moment. Isn't the word "abstain" used in the original suttas? If so, according to the dictionary, this means "to forbear or refrain voluntariy, and especially from an indulgence of the passions or appetites." So, it is up to the subjective judgment of the person involved - whether they maintain that there is no intention to get drunk? Would this mean no intention to drink sufficient to give what the Courts consider an illegal blood alcohol level reading - that's quite a few drinks! Does this mean that social drinking (with no *intention* to to get drunk), is O.K.? At home, I used to as a matter of routine, have one or two glasses of wine to relax with the evening meal. I thought the fifth precept meant abstaining from all substances *with the possibility* to cause lack of mindfulness. Is 'with the possibility' the same as 'having an intention'? I also stopped having an occasional lunch-time drink (single) with the work mob at the pub over the road from the hospital. At parties, instead of one glass of beer, I've been having have soft-drink. Have I been unnecessarily strict with myself? What about one marijuanna cone ... so widespread ... one or two doesn't cause problems and is very pleasantly beneficial for relaxation? Could one use one or two cones at night with no intention of using sufficient to affect the mind? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 25159 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Hi, Nina (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/9/03 1:12:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > K: On the other hand, a Sotapanna is incapable of wilful > >heedlessness. This manifests in his lifestyle as an > >inability to consume intoxicants. (?) But other kilesas > >continue to cause heedlessness. > N: It depends to what degree. > Lodewijk drinks wine with his meals and once a friend suggested that even a > sip is akusala kamma. I asked A. Sujin and she said: does he take wine in > order to get drunk? There is a difference here. > ============================ Hmm, good thing I don't have your fastidious friend looking over my shoulder - I'm afraid I'd be rather uncomfortable! Yes, intention is of major importance as regards kamma .. in fact, intention *is* kamma! ;-) As far as refraining from intoxicants, well, that is, as I see it, a training rule, not less but also not more. Major consumption of intoxicants is, of course, quite harmful to oneself and others, and should be avoided. As far as consuming no alcohol at all is concerned, I view that as useful practice. I adopted that practice about 15 years ago, I've found it useful, and I abide by it to this day despite my great enjoyment of wines, of beer, and even of a "deadly" multi-liquor concoction called Long Island Ice Tea! ;-)). As far as the other four sila practices for laypersons, well, I pretty much observe them, but certainly not perfectly. I am truthful, but I am not pristine in that regard. I don't kill .. I remove insects etc from the house instead of killing them, but if my family were endangered, I would certainly slip, even as regards life forms higher than insects. Frankly, "morality" is much more involved with the matters of killing, lying, stealing, and sexual impropiety than with a minor violation of the training precept about intoxicants. If Lodewijk doesn't "need" the wine, but merely enjoys it, then I am happy for him that he has that small pleasure and also has the good health that (especially red) wine provides. A toast to him!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25160 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kinds of understanding Robert K.: "Dear Larry, Could you cite where Buddhaghosa says he used the Vimuttimagga as one of his main references." Hi Robert, I don't know that Buddhadhosa says anything about his commentarial sources. This is the view of modern scholars. Do you disagree? Larry 25161 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Hi Nina, What you show below is what I thought at first also, but there is a problem with this. "Development" refers to different "functions" in these two paragraphs. What is being discussed is the four functions of path consciousness: 1. full understanding, 2. abandoning, 3. realizing, 4. two developments. These correspond to the 4 truths. Realizing is divided into realizing as seeing and realizing as development and is concerned with realizing nibbana. The two developments are basically mundane and supramundane 8-fold path. I notice that at Vism. XXII, 127 the two kinds of realizing are not called planes (bhumi), but in the Vimuttimagga there is a short paragraph at the end of the book that talks about the plane of seeing and the plane of development in the same way as at Vism. XXII, 127. In the Vimuttimagga these planes are not listed as "kinds of understanding". I think we just have to consider this an anomaly in being the only "kind of understanding" that doesn't have a mundane dimension. Larry ps: The editors of Vimuttimagga give several pali quotations that apparently refer to the plane of seeing and the plane of development: Petaka. 130, Netti 8, 14, 50. --------------------- Nina: Dear Larry, op 09-09-2003 02:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I wonder if an alternate understanding of "the plane of seeing" and "the plane of development" could be the sense sphere and the three other spheres. My main reason for that interpretation is that all the other "kinds of understanding" are very broad, each including the others. N: In this context they both refer to lokuttara panna. See also the relevant subco. But when reading on Vis. XXII, 128: after your quote: <(d) And two developings are reckoned: but developing is also reckoned as twofild, namely as (i) mundane developing and (ii) as supramundane developing. (1) Herein, the arousing of mundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by their means, is mundane developing. And (ii) the arousing of supramundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by them is supramundane developing.> The Vis. then states that in this context (the end of Ch XXII) the supramundane developing is intended here. Nina. 25162 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard In a message dated 9/9/2003 12:21:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi TG, > > You wrote to Nori: > -------------- > >The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained > >impermanence in the fashion that > >abhidhamma thinking explains it. > -------------- > > Howard: This is a surprising thing to read. > My point here Howard was in reference to Nina's comment that "states arise and then immediately cease." I do not know whether any of the 7 Abhidhamma texts incorporate this view, but contemporary abhidhamma scholars seem to. It is this notion of things "arising then immediately passing away" that I do not agree with nor do I find any indication that the Buddha speaks in that regard. The notion of 'impermanence of states' as:-- arising and immediately passing away is something I have never seen in the suttas. If you have a reference for that I would love to see it. My view, which I believe is the way the suttas represent it, is that states are continually altering in form, some slowly, some fast depending on conditions. I believe things alter and wear out due to "conditional impacts." > -------------- > TG: >The Buddha said that:-- states arise, > >persist while changing, then cease. > -------------- > > Howard: Sounds like Abhidhamma to me. > I was not making any arguement regarding the above comment. If that sounds like abhidhamma that's great because it definitely is the sutta approach. > -------------- > TG: >This explanation fits common sense observation > >about the way things rise and fall apart. For example, > >we are born, grow old, and die. > -------------- > > Howard: Are you suggesting that the 'states' that rise, persist, > then cease, include living beings? > > You must be aware that the Buddha referred to living > beings only by way of conventional designation -- that in > reality, only the five khandhas exist. (?) > > In the reality taught by the Buddha, living beings do not > rise, persist and fall away. According to the Buddha (in > the suttas and the Abhidhamma), living beings are mere > conventional designations -- figures of speech. > Are you suggesting there are no living beings? To say there is no self or soul is one thing. To suggest there are no living beings is another. Living beings are "systems" that are composed of elements and aggregates and they indeed do get born, grow old, and die. Regarding peoples birth, growing old, and dying, the Buddha teaches this so often there's no point in looking for a single source. The Visuddhimagga speaks of developing insight into impermanence by contemplating "the first stage of life, the middle stage of life, the last stage of life." And the Visuddhimaga teaches many other insight devices that take into account the life span of a human. > --------------- > TG: >The clock on my wall is not arising and immediately > >falling away. > --------------- > > Howard: No, because 'clock' is a conventional designation for the > visible object (or audible object etc.) that arises in > the rupa khandha. > > What is 'arising and immediately falling away' is the > rupa that is conventionally designated 'clock,' . (No comment) > > ------------ > TG >Its just hanging there slowly wearing out due to > >conditions. > ------------- > > Howard: This is not Dhamma, this is mere, conventional reality. > As long as its reality I'll take it. > ------------- > TG: >Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing > >stew that arises and ceases immediately afterward > -------------- Note, I did not deny that this was not possible, just that it is not necessarily meaningful for the Path. > > Howard: Yes, modern science says that matter rises, persists and > falls away in a nano-second. (Reminiscent of rupa, isn't > it?) > Do you think modern science has a complete understanding of matter in this regard? As far as I last read, modern science doesn't know for sure what an atom looks like, or whether photons are waves or particals or both or neither. They have lots of theories though and many of them are contradictory. > ------------ > TG: >and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a > >continuity of slow change? > ------------- > > Howard: You seem to be rejecting modern science in favour of > Newtonian science. (Neither is Dhamma, of course.) > "My Theory" of the rise and fall of states is:-- "This being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases." Actually its the Buddha's Teaching, not my theory, and its the primary model by which I view the world...conditionality, impermanence, no-self, etc. > --------------- > TG: >Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or how it > >helps in insight development. > -------------- > > Howard: There can be no insight into nama and rupa while you are > thinking (in mere figures of speech). > Based on this line of reasoning, 95% or perhaps more of the Four Great Nikayas are "insight junk" because they rely on "mere figures of speech." Or perhaps another possibility is that insight can grow based on analogies of conventional things. :) > -------------- > TG: >The world is not perceived that way. > --------------- > > Howard: It is by a Buddha. > Glad you could clarify that part of a Buddha's experience. ;) > --------------- > TG: >I don't think insight is about "imagining theories." > --------------- > > Howard: The only imagined theories here are "living being" and > "clock." > Ouch! > --------------- > TG: >I have also never heard a reasonable explanation for > >what the cause of this type of impermanence is. (But > >would love to.) > ----------------- > > Howard: Why do you want to know the cause of impermanence? Knowing the cause of impermanence can clarify the entire canon. Impermanence is one of the most important teachings of the Buddha. It amazing how many "Buddhists" disregard investigating its cause. > > --------------- > TG: >I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After > >all, originally there was no life on this planet, there > >was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of that." > ------------- > > Howard: To borrow your words; 'The Buddha, to my knowledge, never > explained impermanence in the fashion that [your] > thinking explains it.' > Now that just didn't seem kind at all. LOL But here's a few quotes to think about that support my above comment... "eye… ear… nose… tongue… body… mind; are derived from the Four Great Elements..." (Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 "…any object whatsoever - that is of the Four Great Elements or derived from them." (The Buddha…GradualSayings Vol. 5, Pg 224) "This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported by it and bound up with it." (The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, Mahasakuludayi Sutta, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin.) > Kind regards, > Ken H > TG 25163 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa In a message dated 9/8/2003 11:49:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear TG, > Just a couple of points. The Abhidhamma is the teaching of the > Buddha so I think he must have explained it that way. > Hi Robert I don't consider that a fact that is known with any certainty, and due to the extremely disparate styles between the Suttas and Vinaya Pitaka vs Abhidhamma Pitaka, I doubt it. > Where did you read that nama(mentality) grew out of rupa(matter)? > > In the Digha Nikaya > (On Knowledge of Beginnings, trans. Walshe, 1987) the Buddha very > tersely gives an account of the origins of this universe, the > planet, and of the human race: > ""There comes a time when, sooner or later, after a very long > period, this universe contracts [and is destroyed]. At a time of > contraction beings are mostly born in the Brahma world. And there > they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving > through the air, glorious - and they stay like that for a very long > period. But sooner or later, after a very long period, the universe > begins to expand again…. At that period [when a new universe is > beginning] there was just one mass of fluidity and all was darkness, > blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared (or; were manifest) > no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not > distinguished, nor months and fortnights, no years or seasons, and > no male or female, beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner > or later, after a very long period, savoury earth spread itself over > the water where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that > spreads itself over hot milk as it cools...." (1987, pp.409-410). > Later the beings taste the nutritive foam. They then take on coarse > material bodies. > These 'mind-made' beings, in the brahma world have no rupa. The > earth is already formed when they take rebirth there. > RobertK > Interesting sutta. It requires 100% faith and 0% direct knowledge to accept it as fact. I think I'll pass in trying to unravel it here. But to answer your question re: nama based on rupa, I'll leave the same three quotes here that I left for Howard so that they will have more likelihood of being seen. I don't think they'll be seen as absolute proof but they will be something to think about. "eye… ear… nose… tongue… body… mind; are derived from the Four Great Elements..." (Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 "…any object whatsoever - that is of the Four Great Elements or derived from them." (The Buddha…GradualSayings Vol. 5, Pg 224) "This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported by it and bound up with it." (The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, Mahasakuludayi Sutta, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin.) TG 25164 From: Andrew Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 8:40pm Subject: Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi TG Thanks for your nice clarification to KenH. I only have one comment to make below. You wrote: > > > -------------- > > TG: >The world is not perceived that way. > > --------------- > > > > > Howard: It is by a Buddha. > > > > TG: Glad you could clarify that part of a Buddha's experience. ;) > I can't clarify a Buddha's experience by direct knowing but I came across a nice simile in the Maha-Assapura Sutta, which I will paraphrase (hopefully accurately). Whereas a worldling might stand on the shore of a great lake and see water, an Arahant would see water, pebbles, seashells, shoals of fish resting and moving about. The ability to see in terms of paramattha dhammas is so alien to we deeply habituated in conventional thought. Just imagine an angry person shouting at you. What if you could comprehend those realities in terms of paramattha dhammas. Wouldn't it make such an enormous difference? That's why the Buddha could give a radical teaching in the suttas like the simile of the saw (which caused a bit of a stir on this list not so long ago). Enough rambling. Metta to you all. Andrew 25165 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Issues of Dhamma, no 10. Three meanings of Satipatthana Issues of Dhamma, no 10 Chapter 10 Three Meanings of Satipatthåna. Issue of Analysis: Does satipatthåna classified as: ²the teacher¹s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise² mean the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: ²The teacher¹s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise² means indeed the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went. The sources which support this conclusion: 1.³Middle length Sayings² III, no 137 : Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field. 2.The Papañcasúdaní, Commentary to the Satipatthånasutta, Middle Length Sayings. 3. The Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division). The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: These three sources explain the meaning of the three satipatthånas in the same way. We read in the ³Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field² (Middle length Sayings² III, no 137): When it is said, ³There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariyan disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,² in reference to what is it said? As to this, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples, compassionate, seeking their welfare, out of compassion, saying: ³This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² But his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is neither delighted, he does not experience delight, nor is he annoyed, but he dwells mindful and clearly conscious (with sati-sampajañña). This, monks, is the first arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. And again, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples... saying: ²This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² Some of his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacher¹s instruction. But some disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move away from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is neither delighted, he does not experience delight, and neither is he depressed nor does he experience depression. Having ousted both delight and depression, he dwells with equanimity, mindful and clearly conscious. This, monks, is the second arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. And again, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples... saying: ²This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² His disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is delighted and he experiences delight but he dwells untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious. This, monks, is the third arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. When it is said: ³There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariyan disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,² it is said in reference to this. In the ³Papañcasúdaní², Commentary to the Satipatthånasutta, and in the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division) it is said: ³...There are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness: 1. the domain of mindfulness (sati gocaro) 2. the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice] . 3. mindfulness (sati). As to the domain of mindfulness, sati gocara, this refers to the object of sati, that is: the body, feelings, cittas, dhammas. As to mindfulness, sati, this refers to sati cetasika that is aware of the characteristics of realities. As regards the third kind, the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice], we read further on: ³As regards the passage: ŒThere are three foundations of mindfulness which the Noble One (ariyan) cultivates, and cultivating which the Noble One is a master who is worthy to instruct his flock, here it is the threefold surpassing by the Master of attachment and aversion as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way]¹ that is called the Œfoundation of mindfulness¹. The meaning of that is: Œfoundation¹ (patthåna) is because of what should be founded (patthapetabba); Œbecause of what should be made to occur.¹ ² Summarizing, satipatthåna which is the kind of ³the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]², has the following meaning: it is the way along which the Buddha and his disciples went. ****** (translated from Thai0 Nina. 25166 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Sarah, I meant the quote about the commentaries being rehearsed together with the Tipitaka at the Councils. When you have time, perhaps you could retrieve it? Nina. op 09-09-2003 15:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > p.s the other quotes I gave which you asked about were from the > Sammohavinodani, Nanamoli transl, ch11 ‘Class of the Path’, p.39,40. > > (Sv320 etc - 25167 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Dear Nori, op 09-09-2003 00:31 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > you said, regarding rupa: "yes, but it exists only for a moment and > then falls away. Its existing does not have to depend on our > experiencing, in fact, it has to arise shortly before the nama that > experiences it. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and can then not > be object of experience." > > So do you mean to say the chair I sit in does not exist all the time? > What is the evidence which led Buddha or anyone else to believe rupa > arises and falls away? N: all conditioned dhammas are impermanent and dukkha, all dhammas (nibbana included) are non-self: Dhammapada vs 277-280. Rupa arises because of conditions. Four factors produce it: kamma, or citta, or temperature or food. What arises because of conditions has to fall away. The teachings of the Buddha are contained in the Tipitaka, that means, also the Abhidhamma is included. The more you read, the more you will discover that the Buddha's teachings are the same in the three parts of the scriptures. The chair you sit in is composed of infinitesimally tiny rupas which arise and fall. You do not notice it, because so long as there are conditions, the rupa that has fallen away is replaced by a new one.When you have died, the rupas of the corpse conditioned by temperature still go on arising and falling away. No soul transmigrates. The last citta, the dying consciousness, falls away and is succeeded by a next one in a next life. No longer the same person, but all that was accumulated in the last life is carried on to the next life. So there is a connection with the past lives in this way. Nori: Also: While rupa can exist independent of (without) nama; does nama > depend on rupa to exist? i.e. our body including our brain, nervous > system, etc. is made up of rupa (unconscious elemental > matter/atoms/molecules) from the earth ... Nina: in the plane where there are nama and rupa, like this plane, nama can condition rupa and rupa can condition nama. Nori: This (the latter; nama dependence on rupa) is evident by experiments > of the body. Adding/taking away hormones and other brain chemicals > can create/conjure/effect (artificial) feelings. lobotomies, old age, > brain experiments, etc. have shown to effect ones perception, > thinking and state of conciousness. Nina: Right, see above. Nina. 25168 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard In a message dated 9/9/2003 8:42:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > The ability to see in terms of paramattha dhammas is so alien to we > deeply habituated in conventional thought. Just imagine an angry > person shouting at you. What if you could comprehend those realities > in terms of paramattha dhammas. Wouldn't it make such an enormous > difference? > That's why the Buddha could give a radical teaching in the suttas > like the simile of the saw (which caused a bit of a stir on this list > not so long ago). > Enough rambling. Metta to you all. > Andrew > Hi Andrew Agreed. I'll even go further and say that "seeing things as paramattha dhammas" is only a stepping stone ... and even this vision needs to be overcome in order to free the mind from attachments. TG 25169 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I meant the quote about the commentaries being rehearsed together with > the > Tipitaka at the Councils. When you have time, perhaps you could retrieve > it? > Nina. ..... I think the quote you refer to is in the first of these posts. If it was another or if the highlighted links don't work, pls let me know and I'll check again. ***** Commentaries (ancient) 17904, 19897 ***** Metta, Sarah p.s You're welcome to requote from any of my posts;-) ====== ****** 25170 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi Larry, Sorry for the delay but at least you’ve kept busy talking to others;-) --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I would say discursive thinking (vicara) is an object of insight > knowledge because it rises and falls. .... It’s true that -- at least theoretically-- any paramattha dhamma (i.e dhamma that rises and falls apart from nibbana)can be the object of insight, including any cetasikas (mental factors) such as vicara. .... >If you agree to that then possibly > we could say "tree" doesn't rise and fall as a concept but does rise and > fall as thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive thinking (vicara). > How's that? .... Not bad.... ;-) I’d say ‘tree’ doesn’t rise and fall as anything. Whilst vitakka and vicara arise and fall with the citta they accompany, they merely perform their functions of touching and sustaining the citta on the object (such as the concepts in this case). They are not the concept in anyway and I think ‘thought-conception’ may be confusing as translation. It is referring to the touching on or thinking about concepts, but vitakka and vicara actually accompany all cittas apart from the dvi-panca vinnana cittas of seeing, hearing etc from memory [i.e not just concepts touched upon]. In the quote I gave to Howard yesterday from CMA, it mentioned that mental objects are sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness, mental factors, nibbana and concepts. Vitakka and vicara are mental factors. Tree is always a concept. Hence, vitakka and vicara have characteristics which can be known. Tree never does. thanks for providing the Nyantiloka refs. I know you’ll let me know if you disagree with what I’ve written here;-) Let me just add a paragraph from a post of Jon’s (to Nina and Icaro): Jon: “Thus the perception of the experience of things such as trees and people is a creation of the mind, in the sense that that is not how the world is actually being experienced at that moment. Saying that it's a creation of the mind, however, is not meant to imply that it is 'purely imagined', since even the enlightened being similarly creates objects out of sense-door experiences. It simply means it's a perception that relies on inferences drawn from the way things are actually experienced. There is nothing 'wrong' with this, except that for the worldling there are conditions for such perception to be accompanied by wrong view.” Metta, Sarah ======= 25171 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:31am Subject: Are the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma bad interpretations ? hi all, Since I have heard much talk and references about the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga here, I did some further investigation. There seem to be many opponents to the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma. I will cut & paste part of an article from one source which is an article on Buddhadasa (I think the topic and articles would interest some people; Also it would be interesting to hear opinions on this as I have heard similiar accusations) : ----------- Traditional Scriptures From the doctrinal point of view the brunt of Buddhadasa's attack is directed toward Buddhaghosa, one of the greatest Buddhist commentators in the 5th century A.D., who is most acclaimed for providing a commentary and interpretative structure for the Theravada tradition, and the scholastism of the Abhidhamma. Buddsadasa observes that in Thailand various scriptural commentaries which were later completed replaced the original Pali Text as a source of religious authority, especially Visuddhimagga (the Path of Purity), a classical scriptural commentary of Buddhaghosa which is one of the most important texts of Buddhist study in Thailand. He declares that Visudhimagga is one of the oldest historical evidence showing gradual use of Hindu concepts in interpreting Buddhist teachings. Buddhadasa illustrates this argument through historical evidence, such as Buddha's Own Word, the Suttas in the Tipitaka. In his book he wrote the title "What is Paticcasamuppada" (1971) showing the distinction between what he considers the interpretation of Buddhist teaching using Hindu concepts and in the Buddhist sense. He is convinced that uncritical adherence to the Buddhaghosa orthodoxy has obscured a real encounter with the Buddha's dhamma. The criticism of Visuddhimagga implies that Buddhadasa goes against the belief and understanding of not only most Thai Buddhists but also Buddhists in general. Consequently, he is condemned by some groups of monks and laymen as an ungreatful and heretical person who destroys Buddhism.27 On the other hand, his book has became an important reference which most of Buddhist students have to take into consideration. Buddhadasa does not stop there, he does what nobody has dared to do, that is, he criticizes the Abhidhamma Pitaka, one of the cardinal tripartie scriptures in the Tipitaka: Abhidhamma, Sutta, and Vinaya Pitaka. It is a fact that most of Thai Buddhist students believe that Abhidhamma is the Buddha's Own Word. They prefer to study this more carefully than the other two scriptures (Sutta and Vinaya), especially since World War II, when the Burmese tradition of studying and practicing Buddhism was introduced into Thailand. Buddhadasa insists that Abhidhamma was completed about 1300 years after the death of Buddha. He further criticizes that a large part of Abhidhamma is not only in line with Buddha's dhamma but it is also antithetical to the profound Buddhist teaching.28 "What is Abhidhamma" (1971), is one of Buddhadasa's important research works which refers to many sources of evidence taken from the Tipitaka, including the existing opinion of both eastern and western Buddhist scholars like Phra Nanatilaka (a German monk), Professor T.W Rhys Davids, who established the Pali-Text Society in London, and Hary Singh Gour, a well-known Indian scholar. His book is regarded as the most important operation on the Thai Theravada Buddhism. As a result of this criticism, Buddhadasa is opposed by some conservative monks and laymen. He is accused of being a great sinner, as daring to criticize the Abhidhamma Pitaka as wrong. However, the Abhidhamma Pitaka has been discredited in the view of many monks and laymen. The prestige of the Abhidhamma has been affected immensely ever since. Buddhadasa also criticizes the Buddhologists including most eastern and western scholars who write about Buddhism because he feels that their writings contain many non-Buddhist concepts. They generally use Hindu concepts to explain Buddhism, especially the concepts of kamma, birth and rebirth.29 He acknowledges that it is very difficult to clearly distinguish between Buddhist and Hindu concept through only literal study of doctrine or historical evidences. This is because one of the most difficult points centres on the application of the same word which carries completely different meanings and goals: one meaning (the meaning in Hindu sense) maintaining the "self" or attachment to "self"; whereas another meaning (the meaning in Buddhism) maintains "non-self" and demolishing the idea of "self". This point, for Buddhadasa, is a border line between Buddhist and Hindu conception. ------------------------ 27) Suan Usom Foundation, ed., Fifty Years of Suan Mokkh. Bangkok: Suan Usom Foundation, 1982, p. 113. 28) Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, Aphetham Kau Arai [What is Abhidhamma], (Bangkok: Dhammabucha 1974), pp. 73-74. ------------------------ According to T.W. Rhys Davids "... the Vinaya and the four Nikayas (with the possible exception of the supplements) was complete within about a century of the Buddha's death" I understand the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma came much, much, later. In fact, I also read from many sources that opponents to the Abhidhamma existed from its inception. Is not the totality of the Buddhas teachings contained within the four Nikayas ??? Why read and reference later re-interpretations and commentary ? Comments are appreciated. metta, nori 25172 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to Hi Andrew, Good to see your sutta quotes and reflections. I'm not sure how you've found anything worth adhering to in this one to justify your subject heading however;-) --- Andrew wrote: > Hi folks > Reading through my Majjhima Nikaya, I came across some perplexing > language in the Shorter Discourse on the Destruction of Craving > (Culatanhasankhaya Sutta). Sakka, ruler of gods, has asked Buddha > how a bhikkhu gets liberated from the destruction of craving. Buddha > answers: > "... a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. [Having > heard this] he directly knows everything. ..... adhered to - refers to clinging - it is the sutta on the destruction of craving after all;-) B.Bodhi's note 396 quoting from MA, refers to the commentary to MN. It helps to distinguish between comy notes and a translator’s comments imho. “MA explains this passage as follows: “Everything” (sabbe dhammaa) is the five aggregates, the twelve bases, the eighteen elements [S: i.e all conditioned paramatha dhammas that can be ‘directly known’]. These are ‘not worth adhering to’ by way of craving and views because they turn out in actuality to be different from the way they are grasped: grasped as permanent, pleasurable, and self, they turn out to be impermanent, suffering, and not self. He ‘directly knows’ them as impermanent, suffering, and not self, and ‘fully understands’ them by scrutinising them in the same way. ‘Contemplating impermanenence,’ etc is accomplished by the insight knowledges of rise and fall and of destruction and disappearance. ‘He does not cling’ to any formation by way of craving and views, does not become agitated because of craving, and personlly attains Nibbana by the extinguishing of all defilements’.” [S: ie arahantship. Also note: everything to be known only refers to paramattha dhammas (actualities), not to concepts.] .... > In fact, you CAN'T cling to them > because they have changed even before you try. .... Clinging and wrong views are far craftier than we might realise; they dart in and out immediately, taking the same realities or concepts about them as objects. To take visible object as example: After seeing consciousness has fallen away, the javana cittas in the same sense door process and accompanied by clinging can still ‘cling to’ visible object (rupa lasting for 17 cittas). Immediately afterwards,the same visible object can be experienced in the mind door process also by cittas rooted in lobha (attachment). Then of course there can be further mind door processes with clinging to the concepts experienced on account of the visible objects which have long since fallen away as you say. .... > I was a bit confused by the use of "adhering" instead of "clinging". > Why not say "nothing is worth clinging to"? Have I missed some > distinction here? ... I don’t think so. The Pali (I think) is; “Idha devànaminda bhikkhuno sutaü hoti: sabbe dhammà nàlaü abhinivesàyàti” ‘abhinivesaayaati’ from abhinivisati: to cling to; to adhere (Buddhadatta dict) - nothing should be clung to (?) ..... Have I missed the point? .... Not in terms of the clinging, but maybe in terms of the tenacity of clinging and views regardless of the speed in which realities arise and fall away;-) Good sutta and qus. Thanks. Look f/w to more. Hope you saw what I wrote about the raft simile as I know you also been known to take a DSG break;-) Let me know anytime you disagree or have a different understanding. Metta, Sarah p.s like Nina, I enjoy ALL the details about your Cooran weekend discussions. I mean we didn’t even have a progress report on Smokey Joe’s diet...;-) And where’s Azita and the famous article I’m wondering....Steve??? ========== 25173 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: >> > Dear TG, > > Just a couple of points. The Abhidhamma is the teaching of the > > Buddha so I think he must have explained it that way. > > -------------------- > > Hi Robert > > I don't consider that a fact that is known with any certainty, and due to the > extremely disparate styles between the Suttas and Vinaya Pitaka vs Abhidhamma > Pitaka, I doubt it. > _______________________ > >> > In the Digha Nikaya > > (On Knowledge of Beginnings, trans. Walshe, 1987) the Buddha very At a time of > > contraction beings are mostly born in the Brahma world. And there > > they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving > > through the air, glorious - and they stay like that for a very long > > period. > > ++++++++++++++++++++ TG: Interesting sutta. It requires 100% faith and 0% direct knowledge to accept > it as fact. ______________________ Dear TG, I quoted this because I thought you accepted the four nikayas as being authoritative: TG to Nori: "If Buddhism has you interested to this point; it would be a good idea to study the SuttaPitaka (Primarily the Four Great Nikayas) as these are almost universally accredited to the historical Buddha." _______________ TG: But to answer > your question re: nama based on rupa, I'll leave the same three quotes here that > I left for Howard so that they will have more likelihood of being seen. I > don't think they'll be seen as absolute proof but they will be something to > think about. "This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great > elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice > and > porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to > dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported > by it and > bound up with it." > (The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, > Mahasakuludayi Sutta, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin.) > > TG ____________________ The commentaries and Abhidhamma certainly recognize a strong relationship between mind and matter. In fact in realms where there are five aggregates, such as the animal and human realm nama (mentality) cannot exist without materiality: ""The mental and material are twins and each supports the other; When one breaks up they both break up through interconditionality. And just as when sound occurs having as its support a drum that is beaten by the stick, then the drum is one and the sound is another, the drum and the sound are not mixed up together, the drum is void of the sound and the sound is void of the drum, so too, when mentality occurs having as its support the materiality called the physical base, the door and the object, then the materiality is one and the mentality is another, the mentality and the materiality are not mixed up together, the mentality is void of the materiality and the materiality is void of the mentality; yet the mentality occurs due to the materiality as the sound occurs due to the drum. "Visuddhimagga (trans.Nanamoli, 1975, XVIII 32). However the causes for matter are 4 and some matter (cittasamutthana) has as its condition nama. RobertK > > > > Digha Nikaya 11 Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta [The Mind-made Body) "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. 25174 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Toby, I was most impressed by the detail and accuracy (imho) in your post on concepts. Again, apologies for being slow to get back to you on this and the other very detailed post to me on self-view and ignorance which I also look f/w to discussing further with you. I agreed with most your points in the one on concepts. I’m just extracting a few details for further clarification or discussion as I see it. --- torloff87048 wrote: > > Concepts do not exist in any form. They are a conventional reality. To > see why this is so, consider a related topic: Words. Words do not > exist, either. Why not? Let's apprehend what is happening here and now > and see that words as independent realities having their own nature are > nowhere to be found. There are conditions giving rise to verbal > intimation on my part. This is rupa born of citta. No words there, > just rupa. .... Good. .... >Through many processes of the four elements, this rupa > eventually gives rise to rupa that is manifested as color before your > eyes. Your eye-contact with that color gives rise to various cittas and > cetasikas. The objects of those cittas are always one of citta, > cetasika, rupa or Nibbana. ..... Visible object is also an element, always arising in a kalapa with the four principle rupas and also odour, flavour and nutritive essence. Visible object and these three depend on the four principle ones, but arise together as I understand. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Also, while it is true that eye-contact and visible object/colour are essential conditions for the arising of cittas and cetasikas, other conditions are also essential. Seeing consciousness and accompanying cetasikas are the result of (conditioned by) kamma, for example. I’ve just been writing to Howard and Larry about objects of citta which can and do include concepts. Perhaps you were referring to seeing consciousness here which only ever experiences visible object. .... >Some of these objects are previous cetasikas > of perception, conditioned by previous experiences such as with verbal > intimation, citta and cetasika. Speaking conventionally, we say that > these objects are "marked by perception" and we might imagine that a > word is such a mark. But this is a deceptive model. What we are really > doing is perceiving a previous perception. The previous perception is > the mark we are perceiving. .... Not sure here. Sanna (perception) is a universal cetasika, so it performs its task of marking with every citta. Therefore it ‘marks’ namas, rupas, concepts and even nibbana when it arises with the lokuttara cittas. When we talk about thinking, I believe sanna is marking concepts at these moments. I agreed with most of the rest of your post, but as there is already so much detail, I’ll leave it here for now in case you have further comments so far or in case I’ve misunderstood anything or have made any mistakes. Before we discussed in detail on DSG about ayatanas(sense fields -objects to be known) and arammanas (objects of consciousness including concepts). See UP under ayatanas. Very complex. ... >There > are no words or concepts anywhere to be found. > > Just my 2 cents... ..... An excellent 2 cents worth;-) Look forward to many more such bargains and discussions. Many thanks indeed for the feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s If you’ve really only been studying the texts for 6mths you may prove to be the exception to the ‘slow learner’ rule today;-) ======= 25175 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free-will (Was Kamma) Hi Anthony, It’s good to hear from you and I hope you don’t mind a reply from me too. --- Antony Woods wrote: > At the end of your post you wrote: > I read some of the "Useful Posts" on free-will. > I believe that the Patthana would explain things if I could access and > understand it. > What does it mean that new kamma is conditioned if not by the past? .... Yes, I’m sure that if we could really appreciate the Patthana we wouldn’t need these discussions. On a very simple level, the Patthana discusses the complex interactions between the various conditioning states and those conditioned. With more and more understanding of conditions and the interplay of these, there is less and less tendency to look for or cling to any idea of self or ‘free-will’ imho. All realities arising now, including ‘new kamma’ such as attachment or anger and their accompanying intention are conditioned by past and present factors. However, whereas some realities such as seeing or hearing consciousness and some physical phenomena are conditioned or caused by past kamma, what you refer to as ‘new kamma’ is not considered ‘result’ in this sense. This does not mean that it is not conditioned by other complex factors, however. ..... > > I transcribed the following quote from Thanissaro Bhikkhu: > > "The Buddha's teachings on karma are interesting because > it's a combination of causality and free-will. .... Even what he refers to as ‘free-will’ is conditioned. No self to have an will, free or otherwise. The mental state of cetana (intention) responsible for kamma is not ‘free’. ..... > This quote from the Buddha seems to suggest free-will: > > "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... > whatever a > person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' [...] > When > one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, > there > is > no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This > shouldn't > be > done.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-061.html .... This first view given was that of the Jains referring to all experience being the result of past kamma. As the Buddha explains after refuting the various views, the Dhamma refers to the various elements(dhatu)to show there are no phenomena to be known other than namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena). He then teaches dependent origination and the 4 Noble Truths, showing the intricate nature of causes and conditions. You’ve touched on a very important and difficult topic, Anthony. I hope you’ll continue to discuss this area as we can all benefit. If you find these explanations unsatisfactory or wish to question or ask for clarification on what you’re reading in the suttas or UP, I’d be very glad. Perhaps RobK or Chris will add more too. Metta, Sarah p.s thinking of Sydney - usu. we get there at least once a year, but not for now ===== 25176 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:58am Subject: Vimuttimagga --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Robert K.: "Dear Larry, > Could you cite where Buddhaghosa says he used the Vimuttimagga as one of > his main references." > > Hi Robert, > > I don't know that Buddhadhosa says anything about his commentarial > sources. This is the view of modern scholars. Do you disagree? > __________ Dear Larry, Throughout Buddhaghosa's commentaries he mentions his sources from time to time: In the vinaya attakatha for example he says: "I learned three Sinhalese commentaries - the Mahaatthakattha , Maha- paccari kurundi from the famed elder known as Buddhamitta....." Or for the Digh Nikaya: he used "the commetary that was in the beginning chanted [at the first council], and was brought to the sihal island by the arahnat mahinda the great and rendered into the sihala tongue for the benefit of the islanders" So often he refers to the Porana(ancients) and pubbacariya (former teachers). In fact in the whole of the Visuddhimagga there is only one occasion (see xxxii) where he gives his own opinion. And he also says that 'one's own opinion' is the least trustworthy(DA 567-8). He was so careful to follow what the ancients handed down. _ As for the Vimuttimagga I gave it only a cursory study over a decade ago so probably cannot give a fair account. Still I felt at that time that, while it had many truths , on several occasions it was in disagreement with subtle points of Dhamma. From Skilling 171-210, Journal Pali Text Society volXX "The position of the Vimuttimagga is closer to that of the Vaibhasikas who include all 4 elements in sprastavyayayatana. A comparison of the Dhammasangani list with that of the Vimuttimagga shows ..the important difference that the later adds 3 items : rupassa jati vathu rupa and middha. Although the visuddhmagga attributes the heresy of middh-rupa to .."some" (ekaccanam matena) the tika tells us that this refers to the Abhayagirivasins. Thus the inclusion of both middh-rupa in both the Chinese version and the tibetan extracts of the Vimuttimagga is evidence that the Vimutinmagga contains classifications that were rejected by the Mahavihara but accepted by the Abhayagiri Skilling concudes that the Vimuttimagga probably came from the Abhayagiri sect. He notes p200 "these are not minor points." ___ On the Abhayagiri sect: The mahavamsa notes (p267 -268)p264 that a King helped to purify the sasana by suppression of a heresy. He seized bhikkhus dwelling in the Abhayagiri.."who had turned to the Vetulya doctrine and were like a thorn in the doctrine of the Buddha and he excommunciated them." It then notes that the thera sanghamitta (from south India was embittered against the good bhikkus of the Mahavihara and bidded his time until the good king died and the next one jetthatissa died. Then his time was ripe when the younger brother of Jetthatissa (mahasena ) came to power That the Thera sanghamitta , who dwelt at the Abhayagiri told the king that the Mahavihara teach a wrong doctrine and so the King made a proclamation telling the popolulation that they could not feed any monk from the Mahavihara. The good monks thus abandoned it. Sanghamitta then had the King destroy the mahavihara and "carried away the materials of the buildings hence to the Abhagiri and by means of the many buidings that were borne away from the mahavihara the Abhayagiri became rich in buildings, Holding fast to his evil friend the thera sanghmitta and to his servant Sona the King wrought many a deed of wrong>...then by the ruthless Thera sanghamitta the Abhayagiri-vihara was made stately to see" Robertk 25177 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I meant the quote about the commentaries being rehearsed together with > > the > > Tipitaka at the Councils. When you have time, perhaps you could > retrieve > > it? > > Nina. > ..... I noticed the short links (numbers of past posts)I gave didn't come back highlighted to my inbox and I know you don't go to the website to key them in, so I'll try again with full links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17904 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19897 Let me know if you can't access them. Metta, Sarah p.s Nori, if you go to UP and scroll down to the following subjects, I think you'd find many answers;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Abhhidhamma - origins Commentaries Buddhaghosa 25178 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:46am Subject: Re: Free-will (Was Kamma) Hello Antony, and all, Thanks for this site - I enjoyed listening to Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I've read lots of his writings and translations, but I have never heard his voice before. I also briefly listened to Leigh Brassington and Stephen Batchelor. I think one of the things I continually forget about when considering vipaka is that it is a consequence only - not a teaching tool, or retributive justice in action.. I think this is where my reaction comes from - I see it as unfair and pointless, particularly when babies or other vulnerable beings are deliberately harmed or killed. My mind runs the same old loop from shock -> grief -> outrage -> puzzlement and eventually, after a few days, to remembering that this is what I do everytime - forget about anatta, and get taken in by stories and forms. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" 25179 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:54am Subject: Cats and Dogs was [Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to] Hello Sarah, Just on the topic of Smokey Joe ... I saw him as soon as I arrived at Cooran (even before the cuppa). He was asleep on top of a cupboard in his unit, but soon jumped down to inspect and approve of the arriving humans. You'll have to ask Andrew about the legendary weight loss and exercise program. I honestly saw no evidence whatsoever - quite the contrary. It's probably 'comfort eating' though - as the poor boy is kept away from the ladies and, unthinkably, Andrew had invited ANOTHER MALE to stay in the boarding house with SJ's Girls. Perhaps next time I should take Rusty up to 'see the intruder off'. He and SJ have a bond ever since SJ offered to come and eat R's excess food when he was at the Veterinary Hospital. (Rusty is not the sharpest tool in the shed and considers SJ was trying to do him a favour. :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ------ In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew, > p.s like Nina, I enjoy ALL the details about your Cooran weekend > discussions. I mean we didn't even have a progress report on Smokey Joe's > diet...;-) And where's Azita and the famous article I'm > wondering....Steve??? > ========== 25180 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, TG, Ken, and all - Just as a clarification for any newbees who might not know us, kenhowardau@y... = Ken, and upasaka@a... = Howard. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/9/03 9:33:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > In a message dated 9/9/2003 12:21:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > >Hi TG, > > > >You wrote to Nori: > >-------------- > >>The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained > >>impermanence in the fashion that > >>abhidhamma thinking explains it. > >-------------- > > > >Howard: This is a surprising thing to read. > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25181 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Howard, Ken H, TG & All who like to be confused further, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, TG, Ken, and all - > > Just as a clarification for any newbees who might not know us, > kenhowardau@y... = Ken, and upasaka@a... = Howard. .... ..and a clarification for oldies who might not know this little secret, in real life Ken is known as Howard;-) So when we met last year in Noosa, most folks were calling him Howard while a few like me were trying to persist with Ken. I reckon TG must have known.....;-) Anyway, he’s Ken H on DSG;-) So KenH from Noosa and Howard from NY Metta, Sarah ======= 25182 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/10/03 2:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > I’d say ‘tree’ doesn’t rise and fall as anything. Whilst > vitakka and vicara arise and fall with the citta they accompany, they > merely perform their functions of touching and sustaining the citta on the > object (such as the concepts in this case). They are not the concept in > anyway and I think ‘thought-conception’ may be confusing as translation. > It is referring to the touching on or thinking about concepts, but vitakka > and vicara actually accompany all cittas apart from the dvi-panca vinnana > cittas of seeing, hearing etc from memory [i.e not just concepts touched > upon]. > > In the quote I gave to Howard yesterday from CMA, it mentioned that mental > objects are sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness, > mental factors, nibbana and concepts. > > Vitakka and vicara are mental factors. Tree is always a concept. Hence, > vitakka and vicara have characteristics which can be known. Tree never > does. > > thanks for providing the Nyantiloka refs. I know you’ll let me know if you > disagree with what I’ve written here;-) > > Let me just add a paragraph from a post of Jon’s (to Nina and Icaro): > > Jon: “Thus the perception of the experience of things such as trees and > people is a creation of the mind, in the sense that that is not how the > world is actually being experienced at that moment. > > Saying that it's a creation of the mind, however, is not meant to imply > that it is 'purely imagined', since even the enlightened being similarly > creates objects out of sense-door experiences. It simply means it's a > perception that relies on inferences drawn from the way things are > actually experienced. There is nothing 'wrong' with this, except that for > the worldling there are conditions for such perception to be accompanied > by wrong view.â€? > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== Sarah, Abhidhamma or CMA or Vism notwithstanding, when we say that the object of consciousness is a concept, we are either speaking metaphorically, not literally, or we mean that the concept-object is a rupa, or a citta, or a cetasika. It is not possible to *literally* take something that does not occur as an object or as anything else! If, when we say that a pa~n~natti is the object of a citta, we mean a mind-created phenomenon such as a sa~n~na-marked citta memory, or rupa memory, or cetasika memory, and that that marked nama *seems* to be something other than what it is (seems even to be some external object), I have no problem. However, when we say that a pa~n~natti (BTW, is 'pa~n~natti' both singular and plural?) is the imagined external object, and we say that the imagined external object is the object of a citta, to be speaking at all coherently the speech must be figurative, conventional, and metaphorical. In fact, the *imagined* object (what *seems* to be the object) is the actually nonexistent external object (tree or whatever), but the true object [and there *must* be a true object unless you are countenancing objectless awareness!] is something else entirely. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25183 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken .. ,er Howard, uh ...) - In a message dated 9/10/03 9:36:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, Ken H, TG &All who like to be confused further, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, TG, Ken, and all - > > > > Just as a clarification for any newbees who might not know us, > >kenhowardau@y... = Ken, and upasaka@a... = Howard. > .... > ..and a clarification for oldies who might not know this little secret, in > real life Ken is known as Howard;-) > So when we met last year in Noosa, most folks were calling him Howard > while a few like me were trying to persist with Ken. I reckon TG must have > known.....;-) > > Anyway, he’s Ken H on DSG;-) So KenH from Noosa and Howard from NY > > Metta, > > Sarah ============================== I guess that some disambiguation should be carried out in any context in which there might be confusion, such as on a thread that both Ken H and I are both participating. If anyone wishes, instead of calling me "Howard" in such a context, you can use my intials "HCW" instead. (Ken, should we call you "Howard" on DSG?) With metta, Howard/HCW /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25184 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the precepts Dear Christine and Howard, thanks Howard for you friendly toast to Lodewijk. He shall think of you when drinking wine and he shall toast back! He congratulates you with your abstinence. But he does not miss it at all when in India, or when there is no wine. op 10-09-2003 00:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Yes, intention is of major importance as regards kamma .. in fact, > intention *is* kamma! ;-) As far as refraining from intoxicants, well, that > is, > as I see it, a training rule, not less but also not more. Major consumption of > intoxicants is, of course, quite harmful to oneself and others, and should be > avoided. Nina: This point touches on the essence of the teachings. They are training rules, and they are quite different from the Vinaya rules for the monks. Once you are a monk you have to stick to them. I see the precepts not so much as rules of authority imposed on people, coming from outside, but more in this way: the motivation can come from within. Quite a difference. I have the impression that some monks see the precepts for laypeople as authoritive rules, forbidding certain things. I had years ago a correspondance with Ven. Bodhi about this. The marvel of the teachings is : learning about the different cittas, about cetasikas which perform their own functions and are not self. They all arise because of the appropriate conditions. The Dhammasangani seems to consist of a summing up of cittas, but the purpose is: knowing them in your own life. The Dhammasangani is very complete, nothing is left out. We learn when the citta is akusala when kusala, what the function of sati is. We learn that it is sati which prevents us from akusala. You learn what is beneficial for yourself and what is not. Everybody should find out for himself. He should find out where the boundary is of taking alcohol, or even drugs. In this way observing the precepts will come from within, and very naturally. No forcing. In this context I cannot see why we should first obsrve sila, then develop samatha, then vipassana. It all comes with more understanding of nama and rupa, with insight. The development is not a matter of: do this first, then that. Howard, I know you do not see it that way, I remember you made appropriately a comparison with a spiral. I found that even a little sherry affected me, that it was not good for me. I also know that men are different from women. Men may not notice anything when they take one or two glasses of liquor, women become tipsy with the same amount. Again, nobody else can tell you what to do, only you yourself. The teachings help us to develop kusala and understanding ourselves. We also know that only the sotapanna will be able to perfectly observe the precepts, and this quite naturally! When you really see that what we take for people and things are in the ultimate sense only conditioned realities arising and falling away, life is quite different. He clearly sees kamma and vipaka in life. Why should one be jealous? No need. Pleasant experiences through the senses are just conditioned by kamma. Why steal? In the ultimate sense there are only conditioned realities, no people, no things. There is no purpose in stealing. Why be stingy? We do not lose anything by giving things away: it depends on kamma whether there is gain or loss. Nina. 25185 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma bad interpretations ? Dear Nori, Rob K wrote an excellent post on this subject. The book is known to him. I just quote parts. op 10-09-2003 09:31 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > There seem to be many opponents to the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma. I > will cut & paste part of an article from one source which is an > article on Buddhadasa Nina: Here are some excerpts from his post: You can see, Nori how helpful this is. But of course hard to apply. I hope this helps, Nina. 25186 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi TG, op 10-09-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > "eyeŠ earŠ noseŠ tongueŠ bodyŠ mind; are derived from the Four Great > Elements..." > (Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 Nina: certainly. But, kamma produces them, and keeps on producing them throughout life. Kamma is mental. Nina. 25187 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Dear Larry, in different contexts there are different meanings. When looking at the Vis. XIV, 8, and 13, clearly the supramundane panna is meant, not mundane here. And so in the subco: op 10-09-2003 01:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Realizing is divided into realizing as seeing and realizing as > development and is concerned with realizing nibbana. The two > developments are basically mundane and supramundane 8-fold path..... 25188 From: torloff87048 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah (and Howard and Larry), > S:> Visible object is also an element, always arising in a kalapa with the > four principle rupas and also odour, flavour and nutritive essence. > Visible object and these three depend on the four principle ones, but > arise together as I understand. Perhaps I misunderstood you. ... > Not sure here. Sanna (perception) is a universal cetasika, so it performs > its task of marking with every citta. Therefore it `marks' namas, rupas, > concepts and even nibbana when it arises with the lokuttara cittas. > When we talk about thinking, I believe sanna is marking concepts at these > moments. > Thanks for your clarifications here (and kind words elsewhere). What you said made sense to me. In terms of concepts, I still wonder if it is possible to describe thinking without reference to anything but citta and cetasika. No concepts needed. How useful this is I don't know. From this point of view I would apprehend the phrase "thinking about a tree" as "thinking-about-a-tree." In other words, it is a description of an experience, not a division into citta ("thinking") and object ("tree" concept). What the actual objects of the cittas which form the experience "thinking-about-a-tree" are is not part of this description. Or to put it another way, there is only citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana, and the experience of them, which is citta-cetasika-object as event rather than citta, cetasika and object as independently described realities. Even though the CMA refers to concepts as objects of citta, there is at least some room to consider that the notion "concepts can be objects of citta" is only a conventional way of speaking, even in the CMA and Abhidhamma: CMA VIII, 30 Concepts as that which is made known: "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things." The wiggle room here is the meaning of "shadows of ultimate things." In my interpretation, the shadows are the conditioning of ultimate things by ultimate things, i.e. citta and cetasika that have been conditioned by ultimate things, especially by sanna, and later perceived as objects of citta. It's the conditioning that gives rise to experiences like "thinking-about-a-tree," not any concept "tree" that becomes an object of "thinking". Even an Arahant's mind remains conditioned in these ways. Otherwise, he would not even be able to speak. Metta, Toby 25189 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:51pm Subject: H elp in how to locate a sutta requested Dear Group, Can anyone help me understand how to trace the Jivaka Sutta (AN VIII.26) 'To Jivaka (On Being a Lay Follower)' in the unfamiliar (to me) numbering system used on this site? http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25190 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:42pm Subject: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ZERO ! ÍCARO´S DHAMMA DIARY Chapter Zero: ParaMMAAAAtha Dhammas really do it ! The Abdhidhamma! The first and more fundamental question about Abhidhamma: is Rupa Matter ? At first reading, you can say that Matter is Rupa at some mode of expression... and I´ve got a bit of Rupas to deal on! Practising Niyama at a layperson´s way, I put all my personal objects I intend to carry with me at the military boot camp - at ordered single files: white socks, blue shorts, jogging tennis, white T-shirt, toothbrush, walkman...so many objects to put in my bag! I am not so fortunate as the Bhikkhu Monk that has only nine objects to deal on all his life - three robes, bowl, staff, tootbrush, fan, shaving blade and that miraculous, classical remedy of the True Sangha: TIGER BALM (praise to old Haw Par the creator!!!) Watching "Sheep at the Big City" on Cartoon Network I remember my days living on Sweden... and how to deal properly with reality! And thinking on Niyama, I recalled the Paramattha Dhammas: Objects Bases 1. form - rupa 2. sound - sadda 3. odor - gandha 4. taste - rasa 5. eye - cakkhu 6. ear - sota 7. nose - ghana 8. tongue - jivha (tangibility - iphothavva - has an uncertain rule on this list...) 9. body - kaya 10. temperature - tezo 11. resistance - pathavi 12. motion - vayo 13. cohesion - apo These twelve senses and objects are "gross" - olarikarupam. The other is subtle - that Blunt of Mohammed!!! - sukhumarupam. 14. Jivita - life principle - this Paramattha Dhamma is very important to cultural life, let us see how: rupa ----------- gandha | rasa | oja (nourishment) | |- 8 factors of matter, inseparable (avinibhoga) pathavi | tezo | vayo | apo ----------- All material phenomena is composed of these factors, that cannot be separated from the phenomena. They are know as Suddhatthaka Rupakalapa (pure octad material group - excelent to compose Hai-kais!!!). Looking at the empty space of my bag and the bunch ofthings that I intend to put in and out of it, the Cartoon at TV and the scene around me, I perceive that Material phenomena arises because of one or more of these (catuja) 1. Kamma (action) 2. Citta (mind) 3. Utu (seasonal conditions, weather) 4. Ahara (nutriment) Making some calculations, you can set all Jivita characteristics: Avinibhoga + jivita = jivita-nava-ka (1) " + " + cakkhu = cakku-dasa-ka (2) " + " + sota = sota-dasa-ka (3) " + " + gandha = gandha-dasa-ka (4) " + " + jivha = jivha-dasa-ka (5) " + " + kaya = kaya-dasa-ka (6) *(dasa is ten, ka is group, nava is nine...my Pali is far from perfect, but this all is very simple to do)* Material qualities of sex = 15. femminity (itthibhava) (7) 16. masculinity (pumbhava) (8) (Don´t forget, boys and girls: at The Buddha´s viewpoint, sex is a thing done only with a male and a female beings!!!!!) Material quality of base = 17. mind base (hadya-vatthu) (9) This group of nine arises because of Kammaja (past action) As a secret pocket in a jacket, we see that the original Paramattha Dhamma´s list conceals a sub-listing on it, made by the Kamma flow! Many surprises to goin´on!!!! Material quality of nutriment - 18. oja (food). We get so 18 material qualities. These qualities are considered as being real (nipphanannarupa), and produced by the catuja (kamma, citta, utu, ahara). Uff Da! I managed to put everything I need in my bag!!! At the next weekend I am going to travel to Air Force´s Acadeny at Minas Gerais. My life at the barracks and the hard boot camp will begin at once! Don´t dare to miss our thrilling next episode: CHAPTER ONE: After a MUTTON scéance, what is Reality ? (well, I will try don´t get so thrilled anyway...) Mettaya, Ícaro ( here we go !!!!) 25191 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Cats and Dogs was [Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Just on the topic of Smokey Joe [snip] > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > > ------ In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > > p.s like Nina, I enjoy ALL the details about your Cooran weekend > > discussions. I mean we didn't even have a progress report on Smokey > Joe's > > diet...;-) And where's Azita and the famous article I'm > > wondering....Steve??? Dear Sarah, Here I am. The famous article will follow. I actually wrote an article last night to send to dsg., got to the last 3 letters of my name - a whoosh! off into cyberspace it went. My poor computor skills are deteriorating, if that's possible. That's no excuse, I hear you say. The Cooran w/e was wonderful, they are true kalayanamittas. I promise to send it my story about the w/e; but now I have to go to work. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 25192 From: Derek Cameron Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: H elp in how to locate a sutta requested --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Can anyone help me understand how to trace the Jivaka Sutta (AN > VIII.26) 'To Jivaka (On Being a Lay Follower)' in the unfamiliar > (to me) numbering system used on this site? > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/ Yes Christine: I looked it up on the Access to Insight index of A.N. translations, where it's noted that A.N. VIII.26 appears in A iv.222, i.e. Pali Text Society edition volume 4 page 222. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html#8 Fortunately the PTS page numbers are given in the Pali text on the site you are interested in: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-p.htm So this gives the reference of 8.1.3.6. 8 -- the major section of the A.N. (A.t.thakanipaatapaa.li) 1 -- not sure what this is 3 -- the group (Gahapativaggo) 6 -- the sutta (Jiivakasutta.m) English text is here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-e.htm Long links -- you may need to cut'n'paste! Derek. 25193 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vimuttimagga Hi Robert, Do you think the Vimuttimagga was one of Buddaghosa's sources? Larry 25194 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Hi Nina, Any ideas on in what sense seeing nibbana is seeing? Larry 25195 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 14 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga)ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 14. 7. As regards the triads, understanding acquired without hearing from another is that "consisting in what is reasoned" because it is produced by one's own reasoning. Understanding acquired by hearing from another is that "consisting in what is heard", because it is produced by hearing. Understanding that has reached absorption, having been somehow produced by (meditative) development, is that "consisting in development". And this is said: 'Herein, what is understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. '(In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. 25196 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14 Hi Nina, What kind of understanding is satipatthana: thought out, heard, or development? Larry "So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development." 25197 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Sarah: "I know you'll let me know if you disagree with what I've written here;-)" Hi Sarah, I do disagree with you but I don't see any possibility of persuading otherwise. If it makes sense to you to say this doesn't exist, that's fine with me. The main thing is to let go of attachments, especially attachments to views. So I'm letting this one go. Larry 25198 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa In a message dated 9/10/2003 10:03:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi TG, > op 10-09-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > >"eyeÅ earÅ noseÅ tongueÅ bodyÅ mind; are derived from the Four Great > >Elements..." > >(Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 > Nina: certainly. But, kamma produces them, and keeps on producing them > throughout life. Kamma is mental. > Nina. > Hi Nina If you don't mind, let me clarify something, just to make sure I have it right. Am I right to consider inanimate objects (such as a desk) to be composed of rupa? It seems from some of your descriptions that perhaps rupa is only considered matter associated with a sentient being? When I think in terms of conditionality and impermanence I think in terms of animate and inanimate states. The Buddha uses inanimate states on a regular basis for analogies and demonstrations of impermanence and conditionality. I agree that kamma continues the causal cycle of sentient systems (humans for example). I'm interested in the causes of the initial cognitive moments that produce a "kamma driven" sentient system. Not during rebirth, but in the evolutionary sense. There is a sutta (I think in Majjhima) where the Buddha says "...some monks have liberated their minds by insight into the Four Great Elements..." In this sutta, he is describing several (about 8) different approaches that lead to liberation and this is one of them. I think there is more to the Four Great Elements as "causal principles" than they are usually given credit for. TG 25199 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Toby - This is pretty much as I see the matter! With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/10/03 3:17:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > In terms of concepts, I still wonder if it is possible to describe thinking > without reference to anything but citta and cetasika. No concepts needed. > How useful this is I don't know. From this point of view I would apprehend > the phrase "thinking about a tree" as "thinking-about-a-tree." In other > words, it is a description of an experience, not a division into citta > ("thinking") and object ("tree" concept). What the actual objects of the cittas which > form the experience "thinking-about-a-tree" are is not part of this > description. Or to put it another way, there is only citta, cetasika, rupa and > Nibbana, and the experience of them, which is citta-cetasika-object as event rather > than citta, cetasika and object as independently described realities. > > Even though the CMA refers to concepts as objects of citta, there is at > least some room to consider that the notion "concepts can be objects of citta" is > only a conventional way of speaking, even in the CMA and Abhidhamma: > > CMA VIII, 30 Concepts as that which is made known: > > "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, > become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things." > > The wiggle room here is the meaning of "shadows of ultimate things." In my > interpretation, the shadows are the conditioning of ultimate things by > ultimate things, i.e. citta and cetasika that have been conditioned by ultimate > things, especially by sanna, and later perceived as objects of citta. It's the > conditioning that gives rise to experiences like "thinking-about-a-tree," not > any concept "tree" that becomes an object of "thinking". Even an Arahant's > mind remains conditioned in these ways. Otherwise, he would not even be able > to speak. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25200 From: Andrew Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to Dear Sarah Thank you for your response to this post - it all makes sense to me now. I don't always get the opportunity to read all posts and so no doubt I fail to respond to posts that I ought to respond to. Sorry about that. I am still digesting the simile of the raft - brief reference to which has popped up in other suttas, I now note. Re the KenH/Howard controversy, can I complicate things further by reporting that I am now sometimes calling him KenH to his face with no obvious grimace in reply. BTW the reason for KenH's current silence is that he is away for a short while. You can expect a flood of posts on his return, no doubt. And nobody has been game to weigh Smokey Joe recently so Christine's statement that he has put on weight is pure speculation (an "unknowable"). Metta to all Andrew 25201 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Sarah, I had some in my own file, and now Rob K's post on Buddhaghosa. I searched your links, no, only the last ones came forward, not what you said. But it is OK now. Nina. op 10-09-2003 11:01 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17904 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19897 > > 25202 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina (& Nori & all), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I had some in my own file, and now Rob K's post on Buddhaghosa. I > searched > your links, no, only the last ones came forward, not what you said. .... I often forget what I’ve said too.... If you can remember a key word or name, then sometimes you can find a post without too much trouble in escribe, keying in the word into ‘search’, esp. if you know whose post you’re looking for: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ On the questions about Buddhadasa’s comments and Buddhaghosa, I think these were some of the main posts by RobK, Kom, James and myself. I’ve added full links out the numbers in case they don’t show up(Perhaps it was the last one on Buddhaghosa that you were referring to??): ***** Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - paticcasamuppada and rebirth 20495, 20512, 20530 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20495 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20512 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20530 ***** Buddhaghosa 20434, 20532 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20434 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20532 ***** Nori, let us know what you think. It’s very helpful for everyone to raise and consider these comments and articles regularly, I think. I also don’t find any difference in meaning of the teachings in the suttas, Abhidhamma or ancient commentary texts, but am always glad when others raise queeries and possible examples or textual references. Metta, Sarah ====== 25203 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:11pm Subject: Re: Cats and Dogs was [Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to] Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Here I am. The famous article will follow. .... I was referring to Chittapala (sp?)'s article which Chris showed me. If you have problems posting it (maybe in 2 or 3 parts) then perhaps she can help. I didn't keep my email copy. .... > I actually wrote an article last night to send to dsg., got to > the last 3 letters of my name - a whoosh! off into cyberspace it went. > My poor computor skills are deteriorating, if that's possible. > That's no excuse, I hear you say. .... On the contrary, I'm saying I really sympathise. I had this happen so many times for the first couple of years or more of DSG and so often would be retyping in a frustrated state of mind. I remember one particular long post to Sukin when he was new that whooshed off and a very poor substitute written in haste and with quite a bit of frustration sent to the list instead. Eventually, Jon taught me about off-line composing in a word document and it's all been pretty smooth sailing since. ..... > The Cooran w/e was wonderful, they are true kalayanamittas. > I promise to send it my story about the w/e; but now I have to > go to work. .... And they were indeed fortunate that you were able to join them and add your good and wise comments - always to the point;-) Perhaps next time, instead of an astrology lesson for dummies (1. remove stray hairs from lens..), you could suggest a slot for a computer lesson instead (1. Reg- get a computer, 2. Azita - compose off-line and save, save, save) ... > Patience, courage and good cheer, .... Thanks as always and I hope you find enough metta for us all to rewrite some or most of your whooshed away post. Metta, Sarah ===== 25204 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ZERO_! Hi Icaro, This is going to be a very interesting dhamma diary indeed - Dhammasangani-pali in daily boot-camp life. Much appreciation and looking forward to chapter one (if that is what follows ch zero??) --- icarofranca wrote: > > ÍCARO´S DHAMMA DIARY > > Chapter Zero: ParaMMAAAAtha Dhammas really do it ! Glad everything fitted into your bag and you managed to track down all the concrete (nipphanna)(18) rupas. I'm sure with your colourful expression that even those who are not too keen on lists, abhidhamma or rupas will have taken a look;-) .... > Don´t dare to miss our thrilling next episode: > > CHAPTER ONE: After a MUTTON scéance, what is Reality ? > > (well, I will try don´t get so thrilled anyway...) .... Oh, I see it is ch one next. Hope we find out what a "MUTTON sceance" is and how reality follows it. Sounds intriguing;-) Will take your advice to heart about not getting so thrilled... Btw, Jim & all, tiger balm is very useful for putting on insect bites... > Mettaya, Ícaro ( here we go !!!!) .... Take care, look f/w to ch 1 when you can get it to us;-) metta, Sarah ===== 25205 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Toby, Howard (& Larry;-)), (Howard, I hope you don't mind if I combine my reply to you both here) torloff87048 wrote: > > Thanks for your clarifications here (and kind words elsewhere). What > you said made sense to me. .... That’s good to hear Toby. What you are all writing makes sense to me too. We all agree that concepts are not to be confused with paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) and don’t share the characteristics of these, such as anicca and dukkha. This is a lot of agreeing already, I think, even if there are a few obstacles on the fine-tuning path.... You quote these helpful lines: T:> CMA VIII, 30 Concepts as that which is made known: > > "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate > sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of > (ultimate) things." .... Commentary (p321,PTS) “’In the manner of a shadow of something real: in the manner of a shadow of an ultimate dhamma, in the manner of its semblance.’” So, I understand that just as a shadow can be looked at and reflected on in spite of having no ‘actuality’ or characteristics of its own which can be directly known, so too can concepts be conceived. CMA V111. 32 Summary “By following the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as fashioned by worldly convention.” Commentary (p.323) “ ‘In the wake of the sound of speech: an ear-consciousness process occurs in the wake of’ - following, mindful of, making its object the sound consisting of speech such as ‘earth’, ‘mountain’, ‘materiality’, ‘feeling’: ‘immediately after its occurrence’, (a conceptual name) becomes ‘the objective field’ - becomes the object - ‘of the mind-door (which has) arisen’ - of the sequence of mind-door processes that occur in the manner of reflecting on the words (naama) and whose decisive support is a term (sa”nketa) previously learnt as a word (naama) having a particular meaning; ‘after’ this registering of the name,’in conformity with this’ conceptual name whose referents are conventional and ultimate, ‘meanings’, whether conventional or ultimate, ‘are discerned’.” [There is a little more which I think may be of interest to you as it touches on other comments of Toby’s about language, so I’ll post it after signing off * in case you don’t have this commentary (Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma, v.recently published by PTS)] ..... T:> In terms of concepts, I still wonder if it is possible to describe > thinking without reference to anything but citta and cetasika. No > concepts needed. How useful this is I don't know. From this point of > view I would apprehend the phrase "thinking about a tree" as > "thinking-about-a-tree." .... In terms of the actual thinking, only citta and cetasikas are involved. However, there is no tree concept or shadow in the thinking at all. The cittas and cetasikas just perform their very specific tasks according to conditions. So after seeing a visible object, “(a conceptual name) becomes ‘the objective field’” “of the sequence of mind-door processes that occur in the manner of reflecting on the words (naama)” according to previous learnt concepts and experiences. Meanings are thus ‘discerned’ regardless of whether the original ‘referents’ were concepts or realities. .... T:> Even though the CMA refers to concepts as objects of citta, there is at > least some room to consider that the notion "concepts can be objects of > citta" is only a conventional way of speaking, even in the CMA and > Abhidhamma: .... I think it’s a statement about what actually occurs. .... [... shadow quote] T:> The wiggle room here is the meaning of "shadows of ultimate things." In > my interpretation, the shadows are the conditioning of ultimate things > by ultimate things, i.e. citta and cetasika that have been conditioned > by ultimate things, especially by sanna, and later perceived as objects > of citta. .... If we look at the 24 paccaya, concepts are also included in arammana paccaya(object condition) and upanissaya paccaya(decisive support condition). For example, when concepts are objects, they condition the cittas and cetasikas experiencing them and can be objects of kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome) or kiriya (inoperative) cittas. This is not just in the Abhidhamma. In the sutta I was discussing yesterday in MN (Culatanhasankhaya Sutta) with Andrew, we were seeing how attachment can arise on account of realities or concepts and only by knowing the paramattha dhammas will it be lessened and eventually eradicated. The Abhidhamma detail helps a lot, I think, in understanding the suttas. .... T:>It's the conditioning that gives rise to experiences like > "thinking-about-a-tree," not any concept "tree" that becomes an object > of "thinking". Even an Arahant's mind remains conditioned in these > ways. Otherwise, he would not even be able to speak. .... I think you’d find it helpful to read Nina’s book on ‘Conditions’ which is a very useful summary with a lot of textual reference. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I agree that an Arahant’s mind ‘remains’ conditioned’. The cittas and cetaskikas continue to take concepts as object too. Of course, in this case all ignorance and other kilesa have been eradicated, but concepts can still be the objects of thoughts with generosity, metta or jhana states for example. Look forward to further comments. I think these are very useful discussions. Metta, Sarah *commentary to chV111 passage cont: “ ‘A concept such as this’, namely ‘earth’, ‘mountain’, ‘materiality’, or ‘feeling’, which brings about understanding of the meaning that should be understood, which is apprehended through the mind-door and consists of a series of syllables, ‘is to be seen as created through ordinary conventions’, accepted by common designation; a conceptual name is reckoned a concept because it brings about understanding. And here, ‘an ear-consciousness process’ is stated as also including in that same process of ear-consciousness the process at the mind-door which comes into being immediately after the ear-consciousness process. For when one hears the word ‘drum’, etc, for every sound [or word] there are two courses of impulsion by way of a present and past object, [while] there is one [course of impulsion] taking the sequence of syllables which constitute the conceptual name apprehended by one’s intellect; in this way the conceptual name is apprehended immediately after the process of impulsion that has as its object the past sounds [or words] and that occurs immediately after the [actual] ear-consciousness process; after that, so the teachers say, one understands the meaning.” **************** 25206 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Issues of Dhamma, no 10. Three meanings of Satipatthana Dear Nina, I think these ‘Issues’ arising from discussions at the foundation in Bangkok are very interesting and useful. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Three Meanings of Satipatthåna. > > Issue of Analysis: Does satipatthåna classified as: 2the teacher1s > threefold > surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who > practise2 mean the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went? > > Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: > > 2The teacher1s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard > to > his disciples who practise2 means indeed the path by which the Buddha > and > his disciples went. ..... I’ve read and heard explanations about the three meanings of satipatthana before but I think this possibly clarifies better a discussion some of us had a long time back about a phrase Howard raised in a sutta along the lines of the eightfold path leading to satipatthana. It was most puzzling and we all looked at the Pali, inc. Jim I think. I just forget where it was if anyone remembers or can find it. We raised the lines in Sri lanka, so the discussion was probably in the couple of months before end June 2002. KS explained about the 3 meanings of satipatthana, but these details help a lot (if I’m on the right track;-)) ..... >”This, monks, is the third arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. When it is said: ‘There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariya disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,...’” ***** > Summarizing, satipatthåna which is the kind of ‘the Master’s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]’, has the following meaning: it is the way along which the Buddha and his >disciples went. ***** I was writing to Nori about how we often imagine that if we could just listen to an arahant teaching Dhamma, our problems would be over. I was saying that ‘swimming against the stream’ really referred to our own kilesa (defilements) and that these interrupt the wise considering all the time. I find it helpful to reflect on how even those like Little Wayman who had this opportunity were not always able to appreciate the message (from his arahant brother) or the way it was conveyed. You wrote: “We read in the ‘Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field’ (Middle length Sayings2 III, no 137): > > When it is said, 3There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariyan disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,2 in reference to what is it said? As to this, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples, compassionate, seeking their welfare, out of compassion, saying: ‘This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.2 But his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacher1s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is neither delighted, he does not experience delight, nor is he annoyed, but he dwells mindful and clearly >conscious (with sati-sampajañña).” ..... It just depends on complex conditions whether we can appreciate wise words we read in the texts or hear at any given time and also whether others do too. Regardless of any result, there is an opportunity at any moment to ‘dwell mindful and clearly conscious (with sati-sampajanna)’. Metta and appreciation, Sarah ====== 25207 From: norakat147 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Sarah, S: > I also think we have to understand the real problems and cause of dukkha > at this very moment rather than thinking about another time or place. So > often when we feel lonely or misunderstood, it shows the deep clinging to > oneself. No metta or understanding at these times. > > I really like the sutta Ray quoted a lot: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.206 > Chappana Sutta > The Six Animals > > (I also compared BBodhi's translation on p1255, vol1SN) > > With non-restraint like the six animals, aren't we intent upon the > pleasant forms, sounds....mental phenomena and so on and repelled by the > displeasing ones? Without mindfulness and detachment, don't we wander > round like the `foul village thorn'*? ----------- Where I get confused is where do I draw the line of how much to tolerate before I take action? At what point does one have aversion to something and make action to avoid it? I think its just natural that: "S: we (are) intent upon the pleasant forms... mental phenomena and so on and repelled by the displeasing ones? " If I were in a burning house, I would leave because I wouldn't want to tolerate the suffering; repelled by what is 'displeasing'. In analogy to this example, one can reply, (not being sarcastic) "well try and understand why you are suffering at this moment in this burning building, its because you are intent upon the pleasant... repelled by the displeasing..." Are we not supposed to be repelled by the displeasing ? This is my most confused (and seemingly hypocritical/paradoxical) issue I have regarding buddhist philosophy: Buddhism instructs those to not have desire or aversion and yet simultaneously, desire and aversion is what guides one's actions (i.e. desire for happiness; aversion to suffering). Buddha defines association with the beloved as dukkha, among other things that are dukkha. (The dukkha in this case comes from aversion). Likewise one will have aversion to say, people stabbing him with a knife, a burning building, etc. (and just asking as a general question regarding the buddhist path and interpreting "aversion" and "desire" when reading scripture...) What do they define those terms to be? ; since, as in my example above, it is impossible not to have them (those feelings). How does one not have aversion or desire ?; How is this possible ? Will appreciate any thoughts you (or anyone) have regarding this. metta, nori PS Thanks for all your replies and thoughts. 25208 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Hi Christine and all, I tend to agree with your points. I would think that alcohol is mind-altering substance that leads to heedlessness. For whatever reason people consume alcohol, they do so at the expense of the clarity of mind. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nina (Ken) and all, [snip] 25209 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vimuttimagga --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Do you think the Vimuttimagga was one of Buddaghosa's sources? > > Larry _____ Dear Larry, I don't think so. I envisage Buddhaghosa to be surrounded by learned arahants as he resided in the Mahavihara, "the abode of all pious [monks]" as it says in the Culavamsa. Why rely on a text outside of the orthodox Theravada, when he already had the complete ancient original commentaries in Sihala language to edit? I think it possible that the Vimuttimagga was composed later by members of the Abhyagiri sect as their equivalent to the Visuddhimagga. RobertK 25210 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hello Nori, Sarah, and all, On the Cooran weekend when discussing supportive communities for lay buddhists, there were similar reactions from some of the group. It had been mentioned that some of us were interested in simpler models of living, maybe even moving from where we were, reducing working hours, and living closer to fellow buddhists in conditions more conducive to Dhamma study and practice. Some of the group reminded us that all there was was the present moment, and no matter where we were realities could be studied, that tension, anxiety, aversion, wanting to be elsewhere, could be insighted as they occur. And I agree. But that is not the point. Gritting ones teeth and staying in situations that can easily be improved is not more saintly than making the choice to live elsewhere. It can simply be clinging to the idea of 'Oh, what a good buddhist I am!' I have lived here for over twenty years - I don't think staying put proves I am any more virtuous or further along the Path than choosing to go. Happy to hear any comments. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" 25211 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: H elp in how to locate a sutta requested Hello Derek, Thank you SO much for this help!! I have printed off your post and stuck it to the bookshelf behind my computer as a template for finding other suttas. I've put the Pali and English versions of this sutta into a word document for comparison and learning purposes. I am getting more adventurous with my Pali after a semester and a half, and want to study something a little different to 'The peacock, having descended from the tree, has gone now to the rock' - which I'm up to in Buddhadatta so far. (Though I'm glad his exercises are there for me to scuttle back to when I feel I've overreached myself. :-)) [I posted this an hour or two ago and it hasn't appeared. Apologies if you get two of them.] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Cameron" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > Can anyone help me understand how to trace the Jivaka Sutta (AN > > VIII.26) 'To Jivaka (On Being a Lay Follower)' in the unfamiliar > > (to me) numbering system used on this site? > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/ > > Yes Christine: > > I looked it up on the Access to Insight index of A.N. translations, > where it's noted that A.N. VIII.26 appears in A iv.222, i.e. Pali > Text Society edition volume 4 page 222. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html#8 > > Fortunately the PTS page numbers are given in the Pali text on the > site you are interested in: > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-p.htm > > So this gives the reference of 8.1.3.6. > > 8 -- the major section of the A.N. (A.t.thakanipaatapaa.li) > > 1 -- not sure what this is > > 3 -- the group (Gahapativaggo) > > 6 -- the sutta (Jiivakasutta.m) > > English text is here: > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-e.htm > > Long links -- you may need to cut'n'paste! > > Derek. 25212 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:07am Subject: The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Dear Group, Azita has had some difficulty posting this first part of the article by her friend Chittapala - and has asked me to forward it. Any comments would be most welcome: "THE SEXUAL ETHIC OF THE MIDDLE WAY by Chittapala Throughout his dispensation Buddha frequently spoke about the dangers of sensual desire, how it can create suffering in this and other lives, and how it is a major obstruction to spiritual development. In his very first discourse Buddha taught that `one gone forth' should not follow either of two extremes, indulgence in sense pleasures or the practice of self-mortiftcation. Rather,it is the Middle Way of practice, the Noble Eightfold Path, avoiding both these extremes which leads to calm, higher knowledge, enlightenment and Nibbana (Samyutta Nikaya VI,ii). In some discourses*where there is a full exposition of the Noble Eightfold Path, the fourth path factor, Right Action is defined with three aspects: refraining from taking life; refraining from stealing; and refraining from sexual misconduct (e.g. Digha Nikaya No.22, Majjhima Nikaya No. 141). It is this third aspect that is intriguing. What relevance does this guideline for sexual behaviour have for the Middle Way which avoids sense pleasure indulgence and leads to enlightenment? Such a guideline is not applicable to the life of `one gone forth' (monk or nun) as the disciplinary code (Patimokkha) prohibits all sexual behaviour. Thus, this guideline applies only to lay practitioners. Refraining from sexual misconduct basically means being responsible in sexual relationships so there is no harm to any party. A possible extended meaning could be stated as moderation and refinement in sexual conduct. Still, the question can be asked: If the Noble Eightfold Path is `the practice way leading to the end of sensual desire' (Anguttara Nikaya VI, 63), wouldn't it be more logical for Right Action to be defined (in it's third aspect) as refraining from ALL sexual behaviour i.e. celibacy? Some light is thrown on this question in the 'Great Forty Discourse' (Majjhima Nikaya,No.117). Here, Buddha distinguishes two types of Right Action. The first type, as described above, is not without taint, associated with merit and creates worldly results. The second type is taintless, noble, supramundane and a factor of the path. Thus there is mundane Right Action which manifests as the three types of bodily restraint. Also, there is the single factor of Right Action on the occasion of the Supramundane Path which performs the triple function of cutting off the mental tendencies towards the three types of Wrong Action. Even though there is this distinction between mundane and supramundane Right Action it doesn't explain why the sexual aspect is explained as refraining from sexual misconduct rather than celibacy. WHY is `refraining from sexual misconduct' included in the Noble Eightfold Path? I will attempt to explain.Now, as in the past, there are great differences in the individual accumulations of Lord Buddha's disciples. Some, on hearing the teachings, will be able to renounce worldly life and become monks and nuns. Some will practice as single celibate lay people, whilst others will practise within relationships or marriages. This last group would be precluded from practising the Noble Eightfold Path if Right Action was defined as total abstinence. Indeed, by maintaining sexual relations they could not fulfil Right Action. Further, if Right Action necessarily equated to total abstinence, some individuals keen to practise the Noble Eightfold Path might forego sexual relations without the mutual consent of their partner. This could cause conflict and disharmony, leading to possible splits in relationships and families. In turn, this would condition some people to be critical of the Buddha's teachings. * Elsewhere,the third factor of Right action is defined as abstaining from sexual intercourse e.g. in Samyutta Nikaya.XL,8 " To be continued......... 25213 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Toby, Again I agree with much (most?) of what you say and certainly on the need to distinguish between ditthi (wrong views), moha (ignorance) and mana (conceit). I think I would just move a few of your goal posts;-) (As an aside, my comments about Bahiya and ‘clinging to an idea of self’ were somewhat inferential. Brahma told him that in spite of his delusions about arahantship and his real jhana attainments, he had not attained to any stage of enlightenment. As we know, sakkaya ditthi (view of self) is only eradicated at the first stage.) --- torloff87048 wrote: > T: In terms of eradicating the defilement of personality view, > it might be helpful to consider the difference between the wrong > view of self and the delusion of self. Personality view belongs to the > cetasika wrong view (ditthi) while the bare belief "I exist" belongs to > the cetasika delusion (moha). .... I would have said the second one referred to mana (conceit) rooted in attachment? In an earlier post I wrote: “ “This is mine, this am I, this is my self” as often quoted. “This is mine” refers to craving, taking objects as belonging to self. “This am I” refers to mana, conceit and “This is my self” refers to the personality belief, sakkaya ditthi, identified with the 5 khandhas. Nina elaborates on these at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ibs2.html She writes: “In the "Discourse on the Characteristic of Non-Self" quoted above, we read that the Buddha said to the monks: "But is it fit to consider that which is impermanent, dukkha, of a nature to change, as 'This is mine, this am I, this is my self'?" This phrase, often recurring in the scriptures, is deep in meaning. "This is mine" implies craving which appropriates things as the property of self. "This am I" implies conceit, the tendency to compare oneself with others. "This is myself" is a formulation of the personality view, the belief in an abiding self, subsequently identified with the five khandhas. We learn from the Abhidhamma that craving may arise with wrong view or without it. We may, for example, think of "my arms and legs" with attachment, without there necessarily being wrong view. We should know that there is not wrong view all the time when we think of ourselves. Conceit accompanies lobha-mulacitta, citta rooted in attachment. At the moment of conceit there cannot be wrong view at the same time. The ariyans who are not arahats may still have conceit; they have eradicated wrong view but they still may compare themselves with others.” ********** >Speaking conventionally, one might term > the delusion "I exist" a wrong view about self, but this is not the > meaning > of identity view as an aspect of ditthi. The delusion "I exist" may or > may not be accompanied by a wrong view about self. When it is, > that view always takes one of the 20 forms described in the Suttas, > 4 for each of the 5 aggregates, e.g: One regards body as self, or self > as possessing body, or body as in self, or self as in body. ..... Agreed, with the proviso that we’re comparing mana with sakkaya ditthi;-) .... > Personality view is a doctrine held about the self. It can't arise > without > the delusion that self exists, but the delusion of self can be present > without such a doctrine. .... We may have to pause here and clarify terms. Ditthi cannot arise with mana (conceit) but of course moha (ignorance) arises with all unwholesome cittas. Of course, conceit and ignorance are only eradicated by the arahant. I think the characteristic of ignorance is just that of not knowing. ..... >Speaking loosely, one might say that > personality > view is a concretized form of the delusion that self exists. ..... To be honest, I don’t see any suggestion about ‘delusion that self exists’ after self-view has been eradicated in the texts. When there is mana, there is just comparing, rather than any delusion of existing self, as I understand. .... >But in > reality, > personality view has a very different "flavor" than the bare delusion "I > exist." > That's why they belong to different cetasikas. For doctrinal support > for this, > consider the fact that personality view is eradicated upon the first > path > attainment of stream entry, while the delusion of a self can persist all > the > way to the final path attainment of the Arahant. See for example > Samyutta Nikaya 22.89, where the Non-returner Khemaka explains how > the lurking tendency to think "I am" still persists at this stage. ...... This is a very interesting sutta indeed. I understand the lurking tendency to be that of mana, not of a delusion of an existing self. Khemaka replies: “I do not regard anything among these five aggregates subject to clinging as self or as belonging to self, yet I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed. Friends [the notion] ‘I am’ has not yet vanished in me in relation to these five aggregates subject to clinging, but I do not regard [anything among them] as ‘This I am’. “ B.Bodhi quotes the comy which indicates ‘I am’ (not yet vanished) refers to craving and conceit which have not yet been eradicated. (anusahagato asmii ti maano asmii ti chando). I think the question really relates to the nature of mana (conceit). (You may also like to look at past posts under ‘conceit’ and ‘conceit and wrong view’ in UP). ..... I read your other comments with interest. I’ll just take the last of these for now as this post is already becoming long and I have to go out: [...] >In terms of the original post, there's no "magic" in it. It's not > necessarily > easy, but it's not as hard as one might imagine if one believes that > abandoning personality view is the same as abandoning all delusion > of the existence of a self. ..... As I said, I agree that ditthi should be distinguished from other unwholesome states, but I believe this includes all ‘delusion of an existence of a self’ unless one is simply referring to mana which I wouldn’t translate in this way. I’m also wondering whether there isn’t some idea in these comments of being able to select specific objects to arise and be known and some suggestion of something to be done to ‘abandon personality view’ more easily that might suggest a self being involved;-) I think this is what Nina may have tactfully been suggesting in her original comments to Kio. Greatly appreciate your thought-provoking comments, Toby. Look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ==== 25214 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ZERO ! Dear Icaro, splendid. Let no one say that the abhidhamma is a dry textbook. I am delighted with the way you combine Abhidhamma with your packing and your hectic life now. See below, a few remarks. Where and when in future can we reach you, your personal Email or dsg? op 10-09-2003 22:42 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > Objects Bases > 1. form - rupa > 2. sound - sadda > 3. odor - gandha > 4. taste - rasa > 5. eye - cakkhu > 6. ear - sota > 7. nose - ghana > 8. tongue - jivha > (tangibility - iphothavva - has an uncertain rule on this list...) N: look under10, 11,12, pathavii: earth element: appearing as hardness or softness temperature, tejo (note spelling): appearing as heat or cold wind, vayo: appearing as motion or pressure. These are three of the Four great elements (mahaabhuuthas) which are tangible object, Pho.t.thabba. Water, cohesion, apo, can only be experienced through the mind-door. Pho.t.thabba is appearing time and again, when touching objects such as a rifle (I am really worried about firing, hope you will be extra careful), or while running, putting on boots. When standing in the sun, it is hot. Heat appears, but there is also the citta experiencing heat, body-consciousness. Nama is different from rupa. We have to learn, otherwise we think of "I am experiencing" all the time. I: These twelve senses and objects are "gross" - olarikarupam. > The other is subtle - that Blunt of Mohammed!!! - sukhumarupam. N: Yes, cohesion is subtle. I: 14. Jivita - life principle - this Paramattha Dhamma is very > important to cultural life, let us see how: > rupa ----------- > gandha | > rasa | > oja (nourishment) | > |- 8 factors of matter, inseparable (avinibhoga) > pathavi | > tezo | > vayo | > apo ----------- > > All material phenomena is composed of these factors, that cannot > be separated from the phenomena. They are know as Suddhatthaka > Rupakalapa (pure octad material group N: Kamma produces the rupa which is Jivita - life principle, and this is only present in rupas of the body, not in rupas outside. thus, the kalapas of the body have at least nine rupas. - I: Material qualities of sex = 15. femminity (itthibhava) (7) > 16. masculinity (pumbhava) (8) N: spelling: purisa bhava. This will be my favorite litterature!!! Thrilled, looking forward to the next ones, I can't wait!!! With much appreciation, Nina. 25215 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:42am Subject: Cats and Dogs - and things that go whoosh! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Azita, > -snip- > On the contrary, I'm saying I really sympathise. I had this happen so many > times for the first couple of years or more of DSG and so often would be > retyping in a frustrated state of mind. -snip- > Thanks as always and I hope you find enough metta for us all to rewrite > some or most of your whooshed away post. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > dear Sarah, thanks for you support and kind words. I was ready to put an axe thro the monitor, then I remembered that a machine is only as good as its operator - so where to put the axe?? Back outside. Cooran: lots of lively discussion over most of the w/e. Practically all, presented a paper and then we talked about aspects of each paper. Death was a topic at one stage, and I think death is not talked about enuff bec of all things, it is the one event that all of us must experience, again and again and again. Before there is another whoosh! let me relate the story about the proposed retirement dwelling. There were not many of the cittas that cause the lips to smile gently without showing the teeth, no, they were the sort of cittas that cause the head to be thrown back and loud noises come from the throat, in my case anyway. Imagine in the morning, an elderly man tottering down the hill, with two plastic bags in either hand. in these bags are the cockroachs that were caught in the night, by leaving plates of food out so that we could catch them. The elderly man reached the bottom of the hill and released the creatures, knowing full well that they would probably be the same ones that will be caught tonite. The neighbours watch in amazement, 'those weirdo Buddhists do that EVERY morning'. May all beings be happy, Azita. [to be cont] 25216 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: We are *very* close. J: That's a very pleasant change ;-)). ... ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of course I don't know. What I believe, however, is that there is no difference between the enlightenment of a Buddha and any other arahant. Now, whether an "ordinary" arahant can only discern *groups* of dhammas (which, in fact would only be concepts), and the discerning of individual dhammas and their features is the province solely of Buddhas, with their perfection of wisdom, I certainly don't know .. but I would doubt it. ------------------------------------------------- J: I can understand your reservations about any position that asserts that an "ordinary" arahant can only discern *groups* of dhammas, not single dhammas. But that isn't what I was suggesting. I was focussing on the question of whether, in discerning a single dhamma, there is discernment of a single mind-moment of that dhamma. I was suggesting that the discernment is much less precise than that i.e., without the single-moment aspect of mind-states being apparent. I brought this up because I think that correct intellectual understanding of what happens at moments of insight is an important part of the necessary groundwork that we agree is so importantly here. Or to put it another way, any misconception at an intellectual level about the nature or function of awareness/insight could easily be a condition for wrong practice. To clarify, I agree that it is single dhammas that are experienced by awareness/insight, but I would not see this as being single mind-moments of those dhammas (I don't know if this makes sense). > > [In fact, according to the texts, even the the fact of the > momentary > > nature of dhammas does not become apparent *to direct awareness* > > until an advanced stage -- I would suggest that our perception of > the > > momentary nature of dhammas is in truth an inference drawn from > an > > observation of the fact of changes occurring over a span of mind > > moments, not because of developed awareness at a moment-to-moment > > level. But I digress.] > > > > What I am saying is that although fundamental phenomena are to be > > known individually, this does not mean they have to be or can be > > known in units of a single moment. For example, the dhamma that > is > > visible-object can be known as the object that is being > experienced > > through the eye-door, and as different from the consciousness by > > which the object is being perceived, without there being the > > perception of a *mere single moment* of visible-object. The > > perception occurs over a span of moments. At such moments there > is a > > glimmer of light through the 'cloudiness and murkiness' you > mention. > > Every such glimmer, no matter how weak or rare in occurrence, is > so > > valuable, since it accumulates and becomes a condition (by > natural > > decisive support condition) for another such occurrence in the > > future. > > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I suspect this is quite so .. at all stages less than arahant. [BTW, if you are correct, then the Mahayanists know what they are talking about when they say that the goal of the "hinayanists" is a lesser one.] ------------------------------------------------- J: I'm afraid I don't follow (is there some misunderstanding, I wonder). Would you mind making the connection a little clearer . Thanks. ... ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, for sure! There is no successful "attempting" to see these things so far as I can tell. The only successful attempting is the ongoing effort to engage in study, contemplation, guarding the senses, calming the mind through samatha technique, and ongoing mindfulness as possible - that is, continued cultivation, preparing the field so that seeds can sprout when conditions are right. ----------------------------------------------------- J: Yes. Any attempting that is done with the idea of inducing insight to arise cannot be successful. The only successful attempting is the study, contemplation, etc that, as it were, lays the foundation for the arising of moments of insight in the future. These of course must be moments of kusala, free from any expectation of immediate or direct 'result'. And when the seeds do sprout, and moments of awareness /insight occur, they are themselves accompanied by the factor of energy/effort (viriya), according to the texts. So whatever else may be counted as right energy/effort, these moments certainly are that, too. Another important aspect of such moments of insight is their role in the breaking down of the 'reification' of a personal self and external objects, a matter that you correctly emphasise. When, for example, visible-object is seen as visible-object, different from the seeing consciousness by which it is being experienced, there is, right then and there, a breaking down of the idea of a self and external objects. (This of course is not apparent at the time but becomes apparent some time later -- the adze-handle simile). ... -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt, Jon. A moment of insight is like turning on the light in a darkened convention meeting room. It does help, however, if when the light is turned on, the air filtration system has already temporarily cleared out all the cigar smoke. -------------------------------------------------- J But in the ultimate analysis, if the only true fix is turning on the lights, and if we are fortunate enough to have available to us for just the briefest time the information that is key to doing just that, should we give that our absolute priority? (This of course is not to deny the great usefulness of the air filtration system, or the fact that if that system was already up and running then the experience of the lights coming on would be that much more intense.) Jon 25217 From: norakat147 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi nina & all, Recap: > Nori: Also: While rupa can exist independent of (without) nama; does nama depend on rupa to exist? i.e. our body including our brain, nervous system, etc. is made up of rupa (unconscious elemental matter/atoms/molecules) from the earth ... > Nina: in the plane where there are nama and rupa, like this plane, nama can condition rupa and rupa can condition nama. > Nori: This (the latter; nama dependence on rupa) is evident by experiments of the body. Adding/taking away hormones and other brain chemicals can create/conjure/effect (artificial) feelings. lobotomies, old age, brain experiments, etc. have shown to effect ones perception, thinking and state of conciousness. > Nina: Right, see above. > Nina. ---------------- TG post: "This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported by it and bound up with it." (The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, Mahasakuludayi Sutta, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin.) ----------------- Nina: Hi TG, op 10-09-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > "eyeŠ earŠ noseŠ tongueŠ bodyŠ mind; are derived from the Four Great > Elements..." > (Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 Nina: certainly. But, kamma produces them, and keeps on producing them throughout life. Kamma is mental. ------------------ OK, I'm thoroughly confused. Did nama come from rupa / nama sustained by rupa ? or Did rupa come from nama / rupa sustained by nama ? From my experiences - while it is plainly evident by common sense and observation that rupa at the least, conditions nama (if not creating and sustaining it all together), I still fail to see/observe the evidence on how nama creates/conditions/sustains rupa. After all, it was clearly stated several times on earlier posts that rupa can exist independently without nama. ------------------- also, Contemplating this brought to mind the term: 'dependent co-arising' (paticca samuppada) since they both (i.e. nama and rupa) 'depended' on each other. I was wondering if the term 'dependent co-arising' and the following sutta was related in any way to this discussion? I may be completely wrong in interpreting this since I don't quite comprehend the sutta (would appreciate any insight/interpretation on this sutta and whether it relates): in Digha Nikaya 15 Maha-nidana Sutta The Great Causes Discourse (Dependent Co-arising) "..."Thus, Ananda, from name(nama?)-and-form(rupa?) as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name(nama?)-and-form(rupa?). From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress. " ---------------- .. or am I completely wrong in interpreting "name-and-form" as nama and rupa as we are using in this discussion ? Nama is defined as: 1) vedana - feeling 2) sanna - sense perception/accumilation 3) sankhara - thought formation 4) vinnana - conciousness (...if nama is already defined as part feeling and conciousness how could it be a requisite to itself in this sutta? ... I'm prrobably just interpreting name-and-form on this sutta wrong(?)) comments appreciated. peace, nori 25218 From: Robert Eddison Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:13am Subject: Re: Vimuttimagga Larry wrote: >Hi Robert, > >Do you think the Vimuttimagga was one of Buddaghosa's sources? If another Robert may be permitted to butt in.... There's no doubt that Buddhaghosa was acquainted with the Vimuttimagga. However, on the very few occasions he alludes to it, it is only in order to cite and then reject one or another of Upatissa's views. If you have Nyanamoli's translation of the Visuddhimagga you will find one example in the discussion of the cause of the first three of the six character types. See Path of Purification ch. III 80-82 and Nyanamoli's endnote III 19. The latter cites the Paramatthamanjusa (Dhammapala's commentary to the Visuddhimagga), in which the identification of Upatissa and the Vimuttimagga is made explicit. On the other hand, it is interesting that both Upatissa and Buddhaghosa use the seven purifications as the skeleton of their work. Given that this particular formulation of the path is not especially prominent in the Suttas, I think it is unlikely to be just a coincidence that both authors chose to use it. As far as I'm aware there's no clear evidence of whether this was because B was using U as his source, or both B and U were using some common source, or simply that expounding the path in terms of the seven visuddhi was the done thing at that time. If I had to choose among the three possibilities I would probably go for the third. Best wishes, Robert 25219 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Hi, Jon - I'm skipping the earlier part of your post which involves,among other things, the distinctions between Buddhas and other arahants, which I discussed rather unclearly, and which isn't all that important anyway. What I am including is the final part of our conversation which I think is quite important, and which delights me in that it shows us to be VERY much "on the same page" as regards practice/cultivation and issues of "control". I find it amazing (and quite pleasant) that we actually are very close on this matter. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/11/03 7:27:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard: > Oh, for sure! There is no successful "attempting" to see these > things so far as I can tell. The only successful attempting is the > ongoing effort to engage in study, contemplation, guarding the > senses, calming the mind through samatha technique, and ongoing > mindfulness as possible - that is, continued cultivation, preparing > the field so that seeds can sprout when conditions are right. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > J: Yes. Any attempting that is done with the idea of inducing > insight to arise cannot be successful. > > The only successful attempting is the study, contemplation, etc that, > as it were, lays the foundation for the arising of moments of insight > in the future. These of course must be moments of kusala, free from > any expectation of immediate or direct 'result'. > > And when the seeds do sprout, and moments of awareness /insight > occur, they are themselves accompanied by the factor of energy/effort > (viriya), according to the texts. So whatever else may be counted as > right energy/effort, these moments certainly are that, too. > > Another important aspect of such moments of insight is their role in > the breaking down of the 'reification' of a personal self and > external objects, a matter that you correctly emphasise. When, for > example, visible-object is seen as visible-object, different from > the seeing consciousness by which it is being experienced, there is, > right then and there, a breaking down of the idea of a self and > external objects. (This of course is not apparent at the time but > becomes apparent some time later -- the adze-handle simile). > > ... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No doubt, Jon. A moment of insight is like turning on the > light in a darkened convention meeting room. It does help, however, > if when the light is turned on, the air filtration system has already > temporarily cleared out all the cigar smoke. > -------------------------------------------------- > > J But in the ultimate analysis, if the only true fix is turning on > the lights, and if we are fortunate enough to have available to us > for just the briefest time the information that is key to doing just > that, should we give that our absolute priority? (This of course is > not to deny the great usefulness of the air filtration system, or the > fact that if that system was already up and running then the > experience of the lights coming on would be that much more intense.) > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25220 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Dear Nina, Jim, Azita, Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > Azita has had some difficulty posting this first part of the article > by her friend Chittapala - and has asked me to forward it. Any > comments would be most welcome: > > "THE SEXUAL ETHIC OF THE MIDDLE WAY > > by Chittapala ..... Nina, you may remember Chittapala from Sri Lanka ‘79 when he and several other western monks came from Thailand to join the discussions. Azita was there too of course with baby Zoe;-) I just looked at the picture of monks in the 'others' album, but I don't think he's in it. At that time his name was B.Jotapanna (sp?) but for reasons he told me and I've forgotten he changed it to B. Chittapala. He’s been disrobed and living in Australia for around 10 or 15 yrs (?). We met up with him on one visit to Sydney and he called us when we were last in Noosa. Jim, he’s living a really secluded and solitary lifestyle on an island off the Queensland coast (funnily enough where Jon’s parents had a holiday home for a long time). He has no computer and very limited means but Azita has been keeping contact with him as she has with Sundara/Kiernan, the other ex monk who now joins the Cooran weekends and who joined us when we were in Noosa (and who posted once under Christine’s watchful eye). Lots of anumodana for Azita. I mention all this because I’m sure any replies to the article or general encouragement will be transmitted back to him by Azita (with Christine’s help perhaps) and he may join us here in time if he doesn’t see the internet as too much of an intrusion;-) --- gazita2002 wrote: > -snip- > > thanks for you support and kind words. I was ready to put an axe > thro the monitor, then I remembered that a machine is only as good > as its operator - so where to put the axe?? Back outside. ..... I know that feeling and so glad you were restrained;-) Sounds like you all had lots of fun, especially Azita on the proposed retirement dwelling. Jim, let me tell you that this girl is the expert on simple living. Minimalist would be an overstatement for the way she and a few other Buddhist friends of ours used to live in a small community;-) She still enjoys the nomadic lifestyle and has great survival skills. I still remember being shown how to neatly deal with leeches in the dozens by rolling them into a ball and gently plucking them off the body. ..... > The neighbours watch in amazement, 'those weirdo Buddhists do > that EVERY morning'. .... She’s seen it all and would never be fazed at what the neighbours might think;-) >[to be cont] That’s a promise, right? Look forward to it, Azita - enjoying all the varied reports on the weekend. Slowly Nina and I are getting the full picture;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25221 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14 Dear Larry, The Book of Analysis has the same text, but the co: Dispeller Of Delusionp. 156-158, has many explanations. We see in the texts : what is reasoned (cinta) concerns worldly matters, science etc. but also the Dhamma: knowing that kamma is one's own, about the Truths, about impermanence. Knowledge in conformity with truth (Disp 2074): Thus we see it includes insight knowledge, but without hearing it from another. No 2076 explains:< ...But (this understanding) does not arise in just anyone; it arises only in very well-known great beings. And herein, the knowledge in conformity with truth arises only in two kinds of Bodhisatta [note: Pacceka (solitary) Buddhas and Sammasambuddhas]. The remaining understanding [N: impermanence, etc.] arises in all those of great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections; it should be understood in this way.> Then about understanding that one acquires by hearing it from > another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt > (heard): No 2077: By seeing spheres of work being done by another... hearing anybody's words...learning under a teacher...> By development: no 2078: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga)ch. XIV > > [How many kinds of understanding are there?] > > 14. 7. As regards the triads, understanding acquired without hearing > from another is that "consisting in what is reasoned" because it is > produced by one's own reasoning. Understanding acquired by hearing from > another is that "consisting in what is heard", because it is produced by > hearing. Understanding that has reached absorption, having been somehow > produced by (meditative) development, is that "consisting in > development". 25222 From: torloff87048 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response to my post. What you said about the bare belief "I exist" (without personality view present) being an aspect of conceit, not delusion, makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. In terms of how personality view (and other defilements) are completely eradicated, probably each of us must discover that for ourselves through experience. I hope that your study and practice are leading you in this direction. Metta, Toby 25223 From: torloff87048 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:54am Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, You may well be right about concepts being actual objects of citta even though they are not ultimate realities in any form. It's a curious notion that is beyond my ability to directly discern. My way of looking at the matter comes more from a certain intellectual and aesthetic sense than direct knowledge, so there is plenty of room for misguided speculation on my part. In college, I had a professor who spoke sometimes of "being wrong in a good way." May we all be wrong in a good way! Metta, Toby 25224 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:04pm Subject: Re: Vimuttimagga --- Dear Robert, Thanks for this correction. I checked the Tika and there is the reference as you said! Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Eddison wrote: > > There's no doubt that Buddhaghosa was acquainted with the Vimuttimagga. > However, on the very few occasions he alludes to it, it is only in order to > cite and then reject one or another of Upatissa's views. If you have > Nyanamoli's translation of the Visuddhimagga you will find one example in > the discussion of the cause of the first three of the six character types. > See Path of Purification ch. III 80-82 and Nyanamoli's endnote III 19. The > latter cites the Paramatthamanjusa (Dhammapala's commentary to the > Visuddhimagga), in which the identification of Upatissa and the > Vimuttimagga is made explicit. > > On the other hand, it is interesting that both Upatissa and Buddhaghosa use > the seven purifications as the skeleton of their work. Given that this > particular formulation of the path is not especially prominent in the > Suttas, I think it is unlikely to be just a coincidence that both authors > chose to use it. As far as I'm aware there's no clear evidence of whether > this was because B was using U as his source, or both B and U were using > some common source, or simply that expounding the path in terms of the > seven visuddhi was the done thing at that time. If I had to choose among > the three possibilities I would probably go for the third. > > Best wishes, > > Robert 25225 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah I just have to jump in here. If indeed you stated the below, how is it possible to separate delusion from conceit? Is not delusion the foundation for unwholesome states? I would suggest that its impossible to have the bare belief "I exist" without some level of personality view being present. TG In a message dated 9/11/2003 11:31:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for your response to my post. What you said about the bare belief "I > exist" (without personality view present) being an aspect of conceit, not > delusion, makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. > > In terms of how personality view (and other defilements) are completely > eradicated, probably each of us must discover that for ourselves through > experience. I hope that your study and practice are leading you in this direction. > > Metta, Toby > 25226 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga Hi Robert K. & Robert E., My view is that Buddhaghosa used the Vimuttimagga as the scaffolding or frame work for the Visuddhimagga. I find many similarities between the two works, much more than just the theme of the purifications. For example, it looks like the list of "kinds of understanding" is something the author of Vimm. put together and Buddhaghosa modified. It doesn't appear to be canonical. It is these differences that can give us a little insight into Buddhaghosa the man, his judgement and choices. We have no other clue as to what sort of material he was working with. To portray him as a mere copyist, someone who simply translated other peoples' commentaries does his image a disservice, imo. But on the other hand I don't think it is correct to say the Visuddhimagga is a completely original work. It seems more likely he was a synthesizer and editor, bringing together many resources. One thing that is particularly interesting to me is that I thought the interest in "The Path of Discrimination" was a peculiarity of Buddhaghosa but because it is also given considerable discussion in the Vimuttimagga indicates that there was possibly a more general interest in this way of looking at things. I guess it comes down to what kind of image we want to imagine, which is fine, as long as we remember that it is all imaginary. Larry 25227 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14 Hi Nina, Thanks for all the citations on insight knowledge. Insight knowledge is reason. Interesting. I'm going to have to meditate on this. Do we know any more about this word cinta (reason) or how reason works? Larry Nina: "what is reasoned (cinta) concerns worldly matters, science etc. but also the Dhamma: knowing that kamma is one's own, about the Truths, about impermanence. Knowledge in conformity with truth (Disp 2074): Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Dear Nina, Thanks to your reply. --------------- > N: Latent tendencies (not past kammas) are eradicated > at the different stages of enlightenment. --------------- I see, thank you. In my previous post, I was thinking of how a murderer who became a sotapanna, would be spared the lowly-rebirths conditioned by his past kammas. That's why I misunderstood you to be saying they were eradicated. But I can see now, that this is not necessarily so; the past deeds of the ariyan don't need to magically disappear, their results can simply fail to come to fruition. (because of other, overriding conditions) ---------------- > Kamma-patha is mental ---------------- Yes, I tend to forget that. And they actually include six mental actions don't they. I more or less understand how those six differ from thought (vitakka), but I'd find it hard to explain. ----------------- > it is the cetasika which is cetana, intention. --------------- Thanks for pointing that out. Is it possible to be more specific? For example, can it be said that killing, slandering, rude speech and ill-will are cetana with dosa as root condition? (And that their opposites are cetana with adosa?) Are stealing, foolish babble and covetousness cetana with lobha? (And are their opposites cetana with alobha?) Are sexual misconduct, lying and evil views cetana with lobha and wrong view? I'm getting ahead of myself -- too much theorising. But it's tempting to think of the absolute opposite of these last three as; living in conformity with the rules of Vinaya, teaching Dhamma and attaining enlightenment :-) ------------------ I do not see it as conventional truth. But perhaps you think of the whole situation? ------------------ Well, this is where I'm getting tangled up. Can the 20 kamma-pathas be specifically identified among the 89 cittas? If so, then they must be paramattha dhammas but if not, then they would seem to be concepts. (The same question applies to the precepts and the fetters.) I've just deleted the remainder of this post; it had become totally confused and unintelligible. After returning from Brisbane and spending half a day on this, I've fallen two days behind in my dsg reading. A quick look shows me that some people have been taking my name in vain! I'd better straighten them out :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25229 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:13pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 15 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV 15. 8. In the second triad, the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a "limited" object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an "exalted" object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs contingent upon nibbana has a "measureless" object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object. 25230 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Ken .. ,er Howard, uh ...) - > > > there might be confusion, such as on a thread > that both Ken H and I are both participating. If anyone > wishes, instead of calling me "Howard" in such a > context, you can use my intials "HCW" instead. (Ken, > should we call you "Howard" on DSG?) Thanks Howard but that won't be necessary. Even though my given names are Kenneth Howard (in that order), I have always been known as Howard. After 53 years of confusing situations, please don't worry, I'm used to it. You joined dsg ahead of me and so calling myself Ken seemed the natural thing to do. Then Kenneth Ong joined, and I became Ken H. But since then, Ken O has selflessly changed his monogram to KC. He did this to let me drop the H and go back to just plain Ken. But I think everyone prefers to call Ken O by his real name. Besides, it suits me to keep the H -- people who know me as Howard are reminded by it. Is everything as clear as mud? :-) Ken H 25231 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Hi Larry, op 11-09-2003 00:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Any ideas on in what sense seeing nibbana is seeing? N: seeing, daasana, means understanding. Panna which is lokuttara comprehends, realizes nibbana. Nina 25232 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi Nori, Buddhist Publication Society, Sri Lanka, Has: The Great Discourse on Causation, with co, by B.Bodhi. I have it and have to study it now. Rob K made a lot of study of this subject. Sometimes nama means cetasikas, or specific ones, we have to be careful here. Nina. op 11-09-2003 14:06 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > Digha Nikaya 15 > Maha-nidana Sutta > The Great Causes Discourse 25233 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi TG, op 11-09-2003 02:37 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...:> > If you don't mind, let me clarify something, just to make sure I have it > right. Am I right to consider inanimate objects (such as a desk) to be > composed > of rupa? It seems from some of your descriptions that perhaps rupa is only > considered matter associated with a sentient being? N: No inanimate rupas and rupas of the body. The rupas in a table are conditioned by temperature, and those of the body by kamma, citta, temperature and food. T G > When I think in terms of conditionality and impermanence I think in terms of > animate and inanimate states. The Buddha uses inanimate states on a regular > basis for analogies and demonstrations of impermanence and conditionality. N: He taught the conditionality of the rupa and nama of our life. They are going on now by conditions. TG: I agree that kamma continues the causal cycle of sentient systems (humans for > example). I'm interested in the causes of the initial cognitive moments that > produce a "kamma driven" sentient system. Not during rebirth, but in the > evolutionary sense. N: I do not understand your Q, sorry. TG: There is a sutta (I think in Majjhima) where the Buddha says "...some monks > have liberated their minds by insight into the Four Great Elements..." In > this > sutta, he is describing several (about 8) different approaches that lead to > liberation and this is one of them. I think there is more to the Four Great > Elements as "causal principles" than they are usually given credit for. N: the Four Great Elements are the rupas on which the derived rupas depend (see Icaros' diary).Rupas arise in groups, kalapas, of at least 8 rupas, and among them are the Four Great Elements. Three of these are tactile object: earth, fire and wind. No matter what you do, where you go, they appear. Just in our natural life, as Icaro demonstrated. He reminded me today, when walking to the hairdresser, being in that busy shop, standing in the kitchen: rupas inside and outside. We have to learn the difference between nama and rupa, otherwise we shall never be liberated. Nina. 25234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14 Hi Larry, we just learnt that thought out, cinta, not having heard from another as regards dhamma, is not for ordinary people. Heard, yes. Developed, yes. Nina. op 11-09-2003 00:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > What kind of understanding is satipatthana: thought out, heard, or > development? 25235 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi TG, You wrote: --------------- > It is this notion of things "arising then immediately > passing away" that I do not agree with nor do I find > any indication that the Buddha speaks in that regard. ---------------- There are suttas, I am told, in which the Buddha speaks about the brevity of nama and rupa. He says, for example, "Nothing do I know that is briefer than this consciousness," or words to that effect. But how else could it be? In the present moment, the past is gone and the future has not yet arrived. How long does it take things of the present to become things of the past? (the past being a mythical land that doesn't exists.) What I find surprising is that anything really exists at all! I think the ultimate existence of 'anything at all' is what people in the Buddha's time needed convincing of. He explained that the five khandhas ultimately exist. --------------------- > My view, which I believe is the way the suttas > represent it, is that states are continually altering > in form, some slowly, some fast depending on > conditions. -------------- How can a state that is altered, possibly be the same state? Surely, a new, slightly different state has arisen. ------------------ > > TG: >The Buddha said that:-- states arise, > > > persist while changing, then cease. > -------------- > > > > Howard: Sounds like Abhidhamma to me. > > > I was not making any arguement regarding the above > comment. If that sounds like abhidhamma that's great > because it definitely is the sutta approach. ------------------- Oh, I see what you mean. I hadn't appreciated the significance of the words "while changing." Blame it on Howard :-) Otherwise, it is Dhamma (Abhidhamma and Sutta-dhamma). Sometimes, states are said to arise and fall away; sometimes they are said to arise, persist and fall away. Whichever way you look at it, they have been and gone in a billionth of a second. --------------- > Are you suggesting there are no living beings? To say > there is no self or soul is one thing. To suggest > there are no living beings is another. Living beings > are "systems" that are composed of elements and > aggregates and they indeed do get born, grow old, and > die. Regarding peoples birth, growing old, and > dying, the Buddha teaches this so often there's no > point in looking for a single source. The > Visuddhimagga speaks of developing insight into > impermanence by contemplating "the first stage of life, > the middle stage of life, the last stage of life." And > the Visuddhimaga teaches many other insight devices > that take into account the life span of a human. ------------------- I have left that unabridged because I like it so much. It is like most of the suttas in that it is couched in conventional language. When we listen to suttas with an appreciation of the Middle Way, they are the most beautiful prose of all. In the Middle Way, only khandhas exist. They arise and immediately pass away. There is nothing to admire about them; they are transitory, indifferent, soulless phenomena. When the Buddha speaks of chariots, living beings, any conventional realities at all, we dutifully remember the ultimate realities he has painstakingly explained. Then, his conventional words are miraculously heard with wordless, Middle-Way understanding. ----------------- > Do you think modern science has a complete > understanding of matter in this regard? As far as I > last read, modern science doesn't know for sure what an > atom looks like, or whether photons are waves or > articals or both or neither. > They have lots of theories though and many of them are > contradictory. -------------- I think science, in its way, has amazing certainty. Scientists often admit that there is "uncertainty" but many non-scientists are too quick to seize upon that. Pseudo (New Age), scientists claim, for example, that Chaos Theory is an admission of massive unpredictability but actually, the theory is anything but chaotic -- it precisely traces cause and effect back to the Big Bang. (Not that I understand it, I'm not a scientist either.) ---------------- > "My Theory" of the rise and fall of states is:-- "This > being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. > This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, > that ceases." > Actually its the Buddha's Teaching, not my theory, and > its the primary model by which I view the > world...conditionality, impermanence, no-self, etc. > --------------- I agree entirely; we must 'see conditionality everywhere, in all things.' But that can be understood in several, conflicting ways. So, we have to read more and eliminate explanations that are inconsistent with what we have read. When we have read the entire Sutta-pitaka, there may still be more than one consistent interpretation and so we have to consider all three pitakas and their ancient commentaries. When there is only one interpretation that is consistent with the whole lot then we can be confident we know what the Buddha taught. That's when our own, personal theories are worth listening to :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25236 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi all, It is interesting to note that in the Digha Nikaya 15, Maha-nidana Sutta, that nama-and-rupa are both prerequisites to consciousness (vinnana) and feeling (vedana). -------------- > Digha Nikaya 15 > Maha-nidana Sutta > The Great Causes Discourse > > (Dependent Co-arising) > > "..."Thus, Ananda, from nama-and-rupa as a requisite > condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite > condition comes nama-and-rupa. From nama-and-rupa as a > requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite > condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes > craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From > clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a > requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, > aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come > into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress. " ------------ Many interpret nama to be four of the khandas viz.: 1) vedana - feeling 2) sanna - sense perception/accumilation 3) sankhara - Thought formation 4) vinnana - conciousness (mind, life force extending over rebirths) This definition does not fit in this case since nama is a prerequisite to two of these (khandas) (viz. consciousness (vinnana) and feeling (vedana).) I am suspecting the latter to be a later interpretation of nama since this does not fit with some of the older suttas. In a definition made by Nagasena in the Milindha-Panha /Questions of king Milinda: (which by the way is highly authoritive in Ceylon second only to the nikayas; quoted and used as a reference by Budhaghosa in his great works ( quoted on Ambattha Sutta, manoratha purani, comy on Anguttara) --------------- Miln. II, 2, 8 "The king said: `you were talking just now of nama-and-rupa. What does "nama" mean in that expression and what "rupa"?' `Whatever is gross therein, that is "rupa": whatever is subtle, mental, that is "nama."' `Why is it, nagasena, that nama is not reborn separately, or rupa separately?' `These conditions, great king, are connected one with the other; and spring into being together.' `Give me an illustration.' `As a hen, great king, would not get a yoke or an egg-shell separately, but both would arise in one, they two being intimately dependent one on the other; just so, if there were no nama there would be no rupa. What is meant by nama in that expression being intimately dependent on what is meant by rupa, they spring up together. And this is through time immemorial, their nature.' -------------------- I think the most distinguishing factors of nama and rupa that stand out in this case, and in the PTS pali-eng dictionary are: "`Whatever is gross therein, that is "rupa": whatever is subtle, … that is "nama."' Gross: (Mer-webster) immediately obvious: plain, evident, visible, manifest, perceptible to senses (PTS Pali-eng dict.) rupa: form, visible factor ------------- Subtle: (Mer-webster) Subtle – ( a) marked by minute perception, discernment), elusive (elude b: to escape the perception/notice of), b) obscure, c) hard to distinguish or describe (PTS) Nama – abstract, logical, invisible ... factor -------------- I think we should be careful when considering the word `mind' and 'matter' in the traditional (english) sense when considering nama- and-rupa, taking into consideration, as stated previously that nama- and-rupa is a prerequisite to consciousness (vinnana) and feeling (vedana). To use a language with its words (viz. English) is to also consent to its metaphysical system/ideology/model. What Buddha perceived is a wholly different metaphysical system/ideology/model. And so, in essence what we are trying to do is match symbols/words between two entirely different models which is, ultimately, impossible since the words/symbols do not exist to match. When we think of `mind' or 'matter' in English, we also think of our currently assumed and accepted model of reality; nama-and-rupa is likely entirely different with what we associate with "mind" and "matter". We must be careful to not take things so literally and grasp for what really exists - in reality – as it is. Metta, nori 25237 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:51am Subject: Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma usage hi nina, all, I see your point; while I am not certain of the validity of the authors view of the article I posted, the fact still remains that there have been many opponents to both the abhidamma and Visuddhimagga. I am wondering: Why read and reference later re-interpretations and commentary ? Is it necessary ? Is not the totality of the Buddhas teachings contained within the four Nikayas ? Comments are appreciated. metta, nori 25238 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re Chittapala and simply living. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina, Jim, Azita, Christine & All, > Dear Sarah, A correction on Chittapala - he does have a computer these days and he is actually a real computer 'nerd' - his very own words. His elderly mum has talked him into it, so they can communicate! Other than that, he does live very simply and has very few possessions. Cooran: on the trip from Brisbane to Cooran, I made a flippant statement about dogs having more Moha than humans and was almost set upon by the other two in the car [not mentioning names], to explain myself. How did I know this bit of info. and could I prove it?!? Well, I had to quickly backtrack bec I couldn't explain 'how I knew'' but somehow it feels like a correct statement. Dogs seem to sleep a lot and they do seem a bit dopey. I'll probably have the wrath of dog lovers down on me, but aren't animals born so bec they have been stupid??? Maybe not worth answering. You also mentioned simple living. Yes, I am quite good at that and I'm wondering if it's bec. I really could not be fussed looking after all the things one tends to collect. I remember my ex partner was a real Steptoe, had heaps of stuff and I often felt cluttered by all these possessions. However, I'm not convinced that it has much to do with being wholesome really - not that that is what you are saying. I think the real wholesomness comes from having a mind as clean and a clear as an empty house. However, that state is far away for me and in the meantime, I live the way I live, good states, bad states, all coming and going, not me, not mine, not myself. May we all be happy, Azita. 25239 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/11/03 7:20:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > To > portray him as a mere copyist, someone who simply translated other > peoples' commentaries does his image a disservice, imo. But on the other > hand I don't think it is correct to say the Visuddhimagga is a > completely original work. It seems more likely he was a synthesizer and > editor, bringing together many resources. > ======================== As I recall, the Theravadin academic Kalupahana refers to Buddhaghosa as "The Great Harmonizer," which is quite close to your "synthesizer." (Kalupahana uses this terminology despite his grave reservations about some of Buddhaghosa's work, which evidently shows a grudging respect for Buddhaghosa.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25240 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga Hi Roberts E (RobertK& Larry), It’s great to see another example of the familiarity you have with the texts, Robert. Good to see you! I’m appreciating all the contributions on this thread very much as I’ve often wondered about this text. Thanks for raising it too, Larry. ..... --- Robert Eddison wrote: > On the other hand, it is interesting that both Upatissa and Buddhaghosa > use > the seven purifications as the skeleton of their work. Given that this > particular formulation of the path is not especially prominent in the > Suttas, I think it is unlikely to be just a coincidence that both > authors > chose to use it. ..... I know very little about this, however Malalasekera in ‘The Pali Literature of Ceylon’ gives quite a lot of detail on this whole issue (pp85-88) and it sounds logical to me, so I'll just parrot some of it. In brief, after a summary of similarities and differences inc. non- Theravada influences in the Vimuttimagga, he rejects Mr Ngai’s conclusion in JPTS 1917-19 that Vism. is a revised edition of Vimuttimagga. He writes that we can take the Vimuttimagga to be the result of books bought by Guna-bhadra of Mid-India, from his travels to Sri Lanka and elsewhere. In other words, “both authors drew their inspiration from the same sources.” He suggests there is a lot in common in their detail of Abhidhamma and indeed Buddhaghosa’s first book was the ~Naa.noodaya, a treatise on Abhidhamma written before he went to Sri Lanka. He was sent to S.L. to get the complete collection of commentaries because, to quote Malalasekera, “ as his teacher tells him ‘The Sinhalese Atthakathaa are genuine; the text alone (of the Pi.taka-ttaya) is preserved in this land; the Atthakathaa are not extant.’ This does not mean that some, at least, of the commentaries were not studied in India, especially in view of the existence of the Sinhalese Sa”nghaaraama at the Bodhi-ma.n.dapa.[S:??] As long as the text was extant the traditional interpretation thereof, in various degrees of authenticity, at different times, existed as well, handed down through the centuries by a line of teachers who aimed as far as possible at consistency in doctrinal interpretation.” In a footnote in BC Law’s book on Buddhaghosa it says that in Mr Ngai’s article in JPTS, Upatissa belonged to the first century AD and lived at the time as King Vasabha of Ceylon (AD 66-109). So it seems quite possible to me that he and then Buddhaghosa had access to the same sources of texts and (incomplete) commentaries in India and they were of course both versed in the Abhidhamma. Only after access to the entire set of commentaries in Sri Lanka was Buddhaghosa able to compile the detail and write the Visuddhimagga and other commentaries (and reject some of Upatissa’s conclusions in the Vimuttimagga as the reference you give suggests). If this is correct speculation, then it might be a good example of how even in the first century, reference needed to be made to the full set of ancient commentaries to avoid errors of interpretation of the suttas and Abhidhamma. Look forward to any other comments you may have or details to help on any of the threads here. Metta, Sarah ===== Robert E:> There's no doubt that Buddhaghosa was acquainted with the Vimuttimagga. > However, on the very few occasions he alludes to it, it is only in order > to > cite and then reject one or another of Upatissa's views. If you have > Nyanamoli's translation of the Visuddhimagga you will find one example > in > the discussion of the cause of the first three of the six character > types. > See Path of Purification ch. III 80-82 and Nyanamoli's endnote III 19. > The > latter cites the Paramatthamanjusa (Dhammapala's commentary to the > Visuddhimagga), in which the identification of Upatissa and the > Vimuttimagga is made explicit. 25241 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Ken H - ;-)) Okay, so "Ken H" it will stay .. or "Ken" or "Howard" so long as the context makes it clear. And I will remain as "Howard" or "Upasaka" or "Upasaka Howard" or, for that matter, "HCW" will be fine! So many names!! So much verbal intimation!! ;-)) With metta, Uh .. not sure In a message dated 9/11/03 11:26:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Sarah (and Ken .. ,er Howard, uh ...) - > > > > > > there might be confusion, such as on a thread > >that both Ken H and I are both participating. If anyone > >wishes, instead of calling me "Howard" in such a > >context, you can use my intials "HCW" instead. (Ken, > >should we call you "Howard" on DSG?) > > Thanks Howard but that won't be necessary. > > Even though my given names are Kenneth Howard (in that > order), I have always been known as Howard. After 53 > years of confusing situations, please don't worry, I'm > used to it. > > You joined dsg ahead of me and so calling myself Ken > seemed the natural thing to do. Then Kenneth Ong joined, > and I became Ken H. But since then, Ken O has selflessly > changed his monogram to KC. He did this to let me drop > the H and go back to just plain Ken. But I think > everyone prefers to call Ken O by his real name. > Besides, it suits me to keep the H -- people who know me > as Howard are reminded by it. > > Is everything as clear as mud? :-) > > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25242 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Sarah and Susan, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > > I was wondering if you could tell me the meaning of Om Mani Padme Hum > > Hrih........I have seen other Mantra's but I don't know what any of them > > mean, > Sorry, I've no idea. Mike might be able to help... Years ago I was told that "Om Mani Padme Hum" meant "the jewel in the lotus"--not sure about the 'Hrih'. It's Tibetan, I think. I know next to nothing about this, sorry! > I also don't know if meditating on a Mantra is a good way for a > > beginner! I did read somewhere that the idea of a Mantra was to recite > > this > > as and when, or whatever your doing and the longer you recite the Mantra > > a > > meaning will come to you. Is this right? Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! mike 25243 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/12/03 3:51:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > What I find surprising is that anything really exists at > all! I think the ultimate existence of 'anything at all' > is what people in the Buddha's time needed convincing of. > He explained that the five khandhas ultimately exist. > > =========================== I disagree, KH. I think that people at the Buddha's time, due to the influence of the atma doctrine of Hinduism, believed in substantial existence, and, for that matter, most people at all times are more inclined to substantialist views than to nihilism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25244 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:15am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 11 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 11. 4. In the third dyad, when a man wants to begin insight, his understanding of the defining of the four immaterial aggregates is understanding as "defining of mentality", [439] and his understanding of the defining of the material aggregate is understanding as "defining of materiality". So it is of two kinds as the defining of mentality and of materiality. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 11. tatiyaduke yaa vipassana.m aarabhitukaamassa catunna.m aruupakkhandhaana.m vavatthaapane pa~n~naa, aya.m naamavavatthaapanapa~n~naa. yaa ruupakkhandhassa vavatthaapane pa~n~naa, aya.m ruupavavatthaapanapa~n~naati eva.m naamaruupavavatthaapanavasena duvidhaa. 25245 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:17am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 12 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to sixteen (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is "accompanied by equanimity". So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity. (5.) 'I.e. the four paths with the first jhana and those with the second, third, and fourth, out of the five' (Pm. 434). +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 12. catutthaduke dviisu kaamaavacarakusalacittesu so.lasasu ca pa~ncakanayena catukkajjhaanikesu maggacittesu pa~n~naa somanassasahagataa. dviisu kaamaavacarakusalacittesu catuusu ca pa~ncamajjhaanikesu maggacittesu pa~n~naa upekkhaasahagataati eva.m somanassupekkhaasahagatavasena duvidhaa. 25246 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:19am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 13 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 13. 6. In the fifth dyad, understanding belonging to the first path is the "plane of seeing". Understanding belonging to the remaining three paths is the "plane of development" (see Ch. XXII, 127). So it is of two kinds as the planes of seeing and of development. ---------------- Vism. XXII, 127. (ii) The seeing of nibbana at the moment of the first path is "realizing as seeing". At the other path moments it is "realizing as developing". And it is intended as twofold here. So realizing of nibbana as seeing and as developing should be understood as a function of this knowledge. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 13. pa~ncamaduke pa.thamamaggapa~n~naa dassanabhuumi. avasesamaggattayapa~n~naa bhaavanaabhuumiiti eva.m dassanabhaavanaabhuumivasena duvidhaa. 25247 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:20am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 14 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga)ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 14. 7. As regards the triads, understanding acquired without hearing from another is that "consisting in what is reasoned" because it is produced by one's own reasoning. Understanding acquired by hearing from another is that "consisting in what is heard", because it is produced by hearing. Understanding that has reached absorption, having been somehow produced by (meditative) development, is that "consisting in development". And this is said: 'Herein, what is understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. ' (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 14. tikesu pa.thamattike parato assutvaa pa.tiladdhapa~n~naa attano cintaavasena nipphannattaa cintaamayaa. parato sutvaa pa.tiladdhapa~n~naa sutavasena nipphannattaa sutamayaa. yathaa tathaa vaa bhaavanaavasena nipphannaa appanaappattaa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa. vutta~nheta.m -- "tattha katamaa cintaamayaa pa~n~naa? "yogavihitesu vaa kammaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa sippaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa vijjaa.t.thaanesu kammassakata.m vaa saccaanulomika.m vaa ruupa.m aniccanti vaa vedanaa...pe0... sa~n~naa. sa"nkhaaraa. vi~n~naa.na.m aniccanti vaa, ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa pa~n~naa...pe0... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa pa~n~naa. "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" (vibha0 768). eva.m cintaasutabhaavanaamayavasena tividhaa. 25248 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:22am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 15 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV 15. 8. In the second triad, the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a "limited" object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an "exalted" object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs contingent upon nibbana has a "measureless" object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 15. dutiyattike kaamaavacaradhamme aarabbha pavattaa pa~n~naa parittaaramma.naa. ruupaavacaraaruupaavacare aarabbha pavattaa mahaggataaramma.naa. saa lokiyavipassanaa. nibbaana.m aarabbha pavattaa appamaa.naaramma.naa. saa lokuttaravipassanaati eva.m parittamahaggataappamaa.naaramma.navasena tividhaa. 25249 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. Kom Thanks for this, very helpful. For some reason that I can't quite see at the moment, the aasaya are not regarded as 'norn nueng', even though they also lie (and are latent for the most part). Perhaps I can follow up with K Suphee some time. BTW, there are lots of useful word explanations on the 'Parliament' CD set. Worth a listen if you get the chance. Jon --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > According to the dictionary, neung means: > - in continuation > - related > - things that are related / closed to one another > > Non neung, by the words only, mean lying latent, sleeping still, > but in > continuation.... > > kom 25250 From: susan macqueen Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Mike, Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said > that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that > reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The > likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention > right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! ----------- Thanks for answering my email Mike. Since I last posted I have since read that Mantra meditation even 'coca-cola' lol is just a way of focusing on the word to keep the thoughts away, however I agree with what you said and I too doubt it is right concentration therefore I have since found Samatha meditation and I am going to practise that. I'll get there......... Thanks Mike susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "m. nease" To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > Hi Sarah and Susan, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sarah > To: > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:56 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > > > > > I was wondering if you could tell me the meaning of Om Mani Padme Hum > > > Hrih........I have seen other Mantra's but I don't know what any of them > > > mean, > > Sorry, I've no idea. Mike might be able to help... > > Years ago I was told that "Om Mani Padme Hum" meant "the jewel in the > lotus"--not sure about the 'Hrih'. It's Tibetan, I think. I know next to > nothing about this, sorry! > > > I also don't know if meditating on a Mantra is a good way for a > > > beginner! I did read somewhere that the idea of a Mantra was to recite > > > this > > > as and when, or whatever your doing and the longer you recite the Mantra > > > a > > > meaning will come to you. Is this right? > > Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said > that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that > reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The > likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention > right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! > > mike 25251 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi, Susan, Mike, and Sarah - A number of years ago I talked for an hour or so with Piyatissa Mahathera at the NY Buddhist Vihara. We got to discussing jhanas - he believed that I had made some progress in that direction at the time. It was Bhante P's opinion that one could even use a mantra like 1-2-3-4, 4-3-2-1 etc, and that would work just fine! He wasn't all that concerned with the object of concentration. I had been using a TM mantra at the time rather successfully. Subsequently, I've been told that it sounds like I had been shuttling between the 2nd and 5th jhanas. Whatever the case, it's not clear that there were any long-term benefits that accrued to me from that, except for the confidence created that "there are more things in heaven and earth ... ." Perhaps had I pursued the jhanas further, greater benefits might have resulted. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/12/03 10:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sues.greenbank@v... writes: > Hi Mike, > > Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said > >that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that > >reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The > >likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention > >right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! > ----------- > > Thanks for answering my email Mike. Since I last posted I have since read > that Mantra meditation even 'coca-cola' lol is just a way of focusing on the > word to keep the thoughts away, however I agree with what you said and I too > doubt it is right concentration therefore I have since found Samatha > meditation and I am going to practise that. > > I'll get there......... > > Thanks Mike > susan > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25252 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Ken H In a message dated 9/12/2003 12:51:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > TG: >My view, which I believe is the way the suttas > >represent it, is that states are continually altering > >in form, some slowly, some fast depending on > >conditions. > -------------- > > Ken H: How can a state that is altered, possibly be the same > state? Surely, a new, slightly different state has > arisen. > Exactly my point! The state has slightly altered. Its not the same states as before, nor is it a totally different state altogether. There is a continuity of causality and impermanence. It should not be said that "states arise and immediately cease." It should be said that states are "continually altering." Since all things are not self, how could a state have any "identity" as a "self remaining thing?" If there were permanence, it would be possible, since there is no permanence, it is impossible. TG 25253 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, TG (and Ken H) - In a message dated 9/12/03 1:34:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Ken H > > In a message dated 9/12/2003 12:51:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > >TG: >My view, which I believe is the way the suttas > >>represent it, is that states are continually altering > >>in form, some slowly, some fast depending on > >>conditions. > >-------------- > > > >Ken H: How can a state that is altered, possibly be the same > >state? Surely, a new, slightly different state has > >arisen. > > > > Exactly my point! The state has slightly altered. Its not the same states > as before, nor is it a totally different state altogether. There is a > continuity of causality and impermanence. It should not be said that > "states arise > and immediately cease." It should be said that states are "continually > altering." > > Since all things are not self, how could a state have any "identity" as a > "self remaining thing?" If there were permanence, it would be possible, > since > there is no permanence, it is impossible. > > TG > ============================ As I see it, there is already a problem as soon one countenances separate things. A "separate thing", whether it exists for a moment or a span of time or forever, has core/self. Once one accepts such true existents, then one becomes an adherent of either eternalism or annihilationism (or both). Dhammas/phenomena do occur, but they must not, I believe, be thought of as existents. I think that ultimately, their emptiness, their utter dependence on other similarly empty conditions, puts them beyond conventional means of expression or understanding. We may use terminology such as "process-moments" or "elementary experience-events" or "states" or some other circumlocutory 'pointings toward', but all dhamma descriptions, in Abhidhamma and elsewhere, are conventional and are ultimately inadequate, and the only fully correct thinking and talking about dhammas is, as I see it, mental and verbal silence. Still ... until we see face to face, we must think and we must speak. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25254 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:concept as condition Dear Sarah, Upanissaya paccaya(decisive support condition) is rather tricky. I had to check again myself. Concepts are object-condition, but as far as I understand it, they are not mentioned under the objects which can be object-predominance and object decisive support condiitons. I looked at the charts of Ven. Narada, p. 128. But as to natural strong dependence, food, climate, I think there are concepts. Generally, the Patthana deals only with paramattha dhammas. But the chart on p. 137 mentions the concepts which are the objects of jhana as object-condition. So, the last one is not easy: friends, climate, etc. are they the paramatthas which they represent or also the concepts of a whole? I would like to check this again, and correct if necessary. In the chart I do not see concepts under natural strong dependence. I looked at Ledi Sayadaw, under relations, he translates as sufficing condition, and deals with natural sufficing condition, naming a large variety of concepts. I shall check again with A. Sujin's tape series on paccayas. Yes, I have it. Concepts are pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural strong dependence condition) for kusala or akusala. A human being, for instance can be object of metta or respect. Nina. op 11-09-2003 10:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > If we look at the 24 paccaya, concepts are also included in arammana > paccaya(object condition) and upanissaya paccaya(decisive support > condition). 25255 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Dear Nori, you touched on a very complex subject. I looked at the sutta and Co, but I have to continue studying it. Instead of name and form it is better to transl as: nama and rupa. As you say, nama includes citta and cetasikas. When we read contact conditions feeling, we have to think of contact and feeling accompanying one citta now. It is not: contact with a former citta conditions feeling at a later moment. Contact accompanies each citta, and we find it very important what kind of object is contacted: pleasant or unpleasant. When we feel pain we dwell on it, but immediately there is another contact and feeling, when we hear a sound. But we do not notice this. We should also study in what way nama and rupa are conditions for contact. The subco names them. There are five sense bases which are rupa, and the sixth is mental: mind-base, including all cittas. Rupas such as visible object and nama such as seeing are also conditions for contact: "In dependence upon the eye and visible object aruses eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact". We read this in the sutta. condition comes nama-and-rupa.> If there were no citta could there be cetasikas and rupa which is sense-base? We do not speak now of the planes where there is only nama, not rupa. I read in the Co: . I cannot go into all the details of this book. Citta is a condiiton for nama and rupa in many ways, it is said. We have to study whether the citta is vipakacitta and conditions its accompanying cetasikas by vipaka-condition: they are together vipaka. If we realize that conditions are manifold, we shall not be surprised about the fact that nama and rupa condition citta, and citta conditions nama and rupa. Nina. op 11-09-2003 14:06 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > Digha Nikaya 15 > Maha-nidana Sutta > The Great Causes Discourse > > (Dependent Co-arising) > > "..."Thus, Ananda, from name(nama?)-and-form(rupa?) as a requisite > condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite > condition comes name(nama?)-and-form(rupa?). From name-and-form as a > requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite > condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes > craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From > clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a > requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, > aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come > into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress. " > > > ---------------- > > .. or am I completely wrong in interpreting "name-and-form" as nama > and rupa as we are using in this discussion ? > > Nama is defined as: > > 1) vedana - feeling > 2) sanna - sense perception/accumilation > 3) sankhara - thought formation > 4) vinnana - conciousness > > (...if nama is already defined as part feeling and conciousness how > could it be a requisite to itself in this sutta? ... I'm prrobably > just interpreting name-and-form on this sutta wrong(?)) 25256 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Larry op 12-09-2003 01:36 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Insight knowledge is reason. Interesting. I'm going to have to meditate on this. Do we know > any more about this word cinta (reason) or how reason works? N: I would like to be careful, a certain term such as cinta can have differnet meanings and implicate different aspects in different contexts. As to insight: before it can arise there is pondering over, but it is citta accompanied by panna. The first three stages of insight, tender insight, are also called: cinta-maya-~naa.na: panna consisting of reasoning. In between direct understanding there are also moments of thinking of realities, but even this thinking is realized as nama. I would not put it like you suggest: . This would suggest: just thinking about impermanence is already insight. Cinta implies more than just reasoning. As in the Vis, panna classified as threefold, a certain aspect was referred to: without having heard from another. We ordinary people have to listen to the dhamma first before we can develop insight. We have to lisne again and again, before it eventually sinks in. Nama and rupa are not just words , they are realities, each with their own characteristic. We think we have understood, but we haven't! It will take a long time before there can be panna which penetrates the sabhava dhammas, the realities with their own distinct nature. We often have to return to the beginning of the text, just as Vis, 7, the Tiika: <³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true nature. Here, with regard to the first phrase, the coarse characteristic such as touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second phrase, the general characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. As to ³understanding² which has the characteristic of the precise understanding of both (kinds of characteristics), he said, ²understanding has the characteristic of the penetration of the individual nature of dhammas.² and no 8, beginning: Nina. 25257 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 15 Visuddhimagga text: XIV, 15 15. 8. In the second triad, the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a "limited" object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an "exalted" object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs contingent upon nibbana has a "measureless" object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object. Tiika: 15. saati ``parittaaramma.naa mahaggataaramma.naa''ti (vibha0 753) vuttapa~n~naa. As to the words, ³limited object, exalted object², this indeed is called understanding. lokiyavipassanaati lokiyavipassanaapa~n~naa. As to the words ³mundane insight², this is insight knowledge that is mundane. saa lokuttaravipassanaati yaa nibbaana.m aarabbha pavattaa appamaa.naaramma.naa pa~n~naa vuttaa, As to the words supramundane insight, that which occurs contingent upon nibbana is called understanding with a measureless object. saa lokuttaravipassanaati maggapa~n~na.m sandhaayaaha. He said that this is supramundane understanding with reference to understanding belonging to the Path. saa hi sa"nkhaaraana.m aniccataadi.m aga.nhantiipi vipassanaakiccapaaripuuriyaa, This understanding that does not have as object the impermanence etc. of conditioned dhammas, because the function of insight is completed, nibbaanassa vaa tathalakkha.na.m visesato passatiiti vipassanaati vuccati. realizes indeed distinctly the true characteristic of nibbana, and thus it is called insight. gotrabhu~naa.na.m pana ki~ncaapi appamaa.naaramma.na.m, maggassa pana aavajjana.t.thaaniyattaa na vipassanaavohaara.m labhati. Although the change-of-lineage knowledge has a measureless object, yet, because of its quality of adverting to the path, it does not obtain the designation of insight. **** English: As to the words, ³limited object, exalted object², this indeed is called understanding. As to the words ³mundane insight², this is insight knowledge that is mundane. As to the words supramundane insight, that which occurs contingent upon nibbana is called understanding with a measureless object. He said that this is supramundane understanding with reference to understanding belonging to the Path. This understanding that does not have as object the impermanence etc. of conditioned dhammas, because the function of insight is completed, realizes indeed distinctly the true characteristic of nibbana, and thus it is called insight. Although the change-of-lineage knowledge has a measureless object, yet, because of its quality of adverting to the path, it does not obtain the designation of insight. ******* Nina. 25258 From: susan macqueen Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Howard I got muddled up with the names, thank you for responding lol.........my apologies. susan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > Hi, Susan, Mike, and Sarah - > > A number of years ago I talked for an hour or so with Piyatissa > Mahathera at the NY Buddhist Vihara. We got to discussing jhanas - he believed that > I had made some progress in that direction at the time. It was Bhante P's > opinion that one could even use a mantra like 1-2-3-4, 4-3-2-1 etc, and that would > work just fine! He wasn't all that concerned with the object of > concentration. I had been using a TM mantra at the time rather successfully. Subsequently, > I've been told that it sounds like I had been shuttling between the 2nd and > 5th jhanas. Whatever the case, it's not clear that there were any long-term > benefits that accrued to me from that, except for the confidence created that > "there are more things in heaven and earth ... ." Perhaps had I pursued the jhanas > further, greater benefits might have resulted. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 9/12/03 10:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sues.greenbank@v... writes: > > > Hi Mike, > > > > Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said > > >that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that > > >reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The > > >likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention > > >right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! > > ----------- > > > > Thanks for answering my email Mike. Since I last posted I have since read > > that Mantra meditation even 'coca-cola' lol is just a way of focusing on the > > word to keep the thoughts away, however I agree with what you said and I too > > doubt it is right concentration therefore I have since found Samatha > > meditation and I am going to practise that. > > > > I'll get there......... > > > > Thanks Mike > > susan > > > > 25259 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:30pm Subject: Boox Sarah/Jim Finally I got a reply from Bhante Mettavihari He said --> "I presume you are looking for some old books. They will all be in Sinhalese script. I found recently some old books in Maradana the small shops by the roundabout near (Gamini Hall) " So is Sinhalese Script OK? If its OK then I probably can persuade somebody to look ,.. Regards, 25260 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. L: "Any ideas on in what sense seeing nibbana is seeing?" N: "seeing, daasana, means understanding. Panna which is lokuttara comprehends, realizes nibbana." Hi Nina, The reason I ask is because I was wondering what role sa~n~naa plays. Since sa~n~naa identifies by means of signs and nibbaana is signless and presumably pa~n~naa needs strong identity in order to understand the individual characteristic, how does pa~n~naa or sa~n~naa know the signless if signs are necessary for knowing? Larry 25261 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:15pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, > Hi Jim, > > I hadn't forgotten your earlier post, but have been considering some of > the issues. Sometimes I get distracted on other threads and sometimes I > just like to leave certain threads on the back-burner for a while..... That's okay with me as it's often the same here. I've also been trying to get back into lurk mode again so I can carry on quietly with my own studies without the interruptions of attending to unending email topics as interesting as they may be. It's easy enough to get drawn into a discussion but not so easy to get out of it. > ..... > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > I have since found some more interesting details on this in the > > subcty. to Buddhappiya's Mahaaruupasiddhi (a Pali grammatical > > treatise). The threefold saasana is ultimately grounded on skilfulness > > in the 41 Pali letters (including grammar) for when this exist there > > is the understanding of pariyatti (the tipi.taka with the > > a.t.thakathaa-s). > .... > This touches an area that is very difficult for me to appreciate. Perhaps > it should also be read in the light of yoniso manasikaara (wise > attention)? We know there can be Pali and Abhidhamma scholars who still > miss the essence of the teachings and that wisdom cannot be equated with > degree of these kinds of knowledge. So even pariyatti is more than just > book knowledge. I think the point, however, is that as the scriptural > knowledge and availability declines, so does the threefold sasana. I'm, > just thinking about the vinaya rule about the importance of the correct > pronunciation of Pali in order for the ordinations to be valid and the > reasons for this rule. It is worth noting that "skilfulness in the (Pali) letters" is 'akkharakosalla' in Pali. The tika gives 'pa.n.dicca' as a synonym of 'kosalla' and both terms are given as synonyms of 'pa~n~naa' at Dhs §16, 20, 34, etc. So, in my view, the development of 'pa~n~naa' can begin with learning the Pali alphabet and continue to be developed right to the end with the realization of Nibbana. Of course, the degree and scope of 'pa~n~naa' increases as one makes progress along the way. > I've also been reflecting on the third Patisambhida (discrimination)- > niruttipa.tisambhidaa (discrimination of language) since Larry (?) raised > it. > > Sv15,387 (Pali), 1946 (Eng) 'Sv' is the usual abbr. for Samangalavilaasinii. For 'Sammohavinodanii' use Vibh-a. > "Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its object, > not a concept as its object." This is quite an interesting statement. Do you think, then, that the 'attha' and 'dhamma' of the first two discriminations refer to concepts ie. attha-pa~n~natti & naama-pa~n~natti, respectively? I can see how language can be perceived as sequences of sounds devoid of any meaning or names. Often when I'm reciting Pali to myself I just like to listen to or feel the muscular articulations of the sounds being uttered without any attempt to understand what they might mean or stand for. I always thought this was due to laziness on my part, but the above statement gives me some hope that it may not all be in vain. > We read that all Buddhas use the same language, the only one which doesn't > change: > > "Also the Enlightened One, in announcing the Buddha word of the Tipitaka, > did so only in the Magadha tongue. Why? Because in this way it is easy to > deduce the meaning; since the only delay for the buddha word announced in > the text in the magadha tongue is that occurring when coming to the ears > of those who have attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is > merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand > ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by repeated > application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary > man, even if he has learnt much; and there is no noble disciple who has > not reached the Discriminations" [see also VismX1V,25] > > The last line puzzles me. As Nina always reminds us, only some arahants > had these discriminations. Not now. There are degrees and the chief > disciples had them to a greater degree than other disciples which is why > Sariputta could listen to the Abhidhamma in brief and immediately > comprehend it in detail. > > Sv 387(Pali- last para),1949 (English) is difficult and has been raised > before- the children speaking the Magadha language. Are these Bodhisattas? > Nina, Mike, Jim - any comments? I don't understand it either. The Magadha tongue is also foremost in the realms of hell-beings, animals, hungry ghosts, and deities according to Dispeller §1949. Does this mean that animals can understand Pali? Perhaps this is so when a Buddha or Arahant is speaking to them. Regarding the Vimuttimagga, I was curious to find out what it had to say on the proximate or near cause of wisdom. There is no mention of concentration being the proximate cause but instead (on p. 230) it mentions 'the four truths' (as with Dhammapaala who also recognizes concentration) and 'the four kinds of analytical science'. Doesn't the latter sound an awful lot like the four pa.tisambhidas? > ..... > >This is great as it really underscores the > > worthwhileness of studying and gaining expertise in Pali. Pa.tipatti > > (practice) is the threefold training and pa.tivedha (penetration) is > > the attainment of the nine lokuttara dhammas. Pa.tivedha seems to be > > interchangeable with adhigama. > .... > Yes, but I think we have to be careful about how we use the word > 'studying'. I'm not sure that it is just 'skill' and 'study' as we use > these conventionally that is referred to. I think we always have to read > these phrases in the light of the entire teaching on satipatthana. What do > you think, Jim? Conventionally speaking, I think of 'studying' as the development of wisdom in the same way as I think of 'meditating' as the development of concentration or tranquility. > I'd be glad to hear any further reflections you have, Jim and I think it > works well to just pick and choose parts for response (if any!)without any > obligations. I think we're also both trying to avoid pulling out too many > texts;-) I agree. I just deleted a big chunk of your message which I was in no mood to respond to. I generally like to keep messages short and to the point. I notice that in my correspondence with you the messages tend to get overly long and many new topics to discuss are introduced. The discussion could just go and on with no end in sight. > p.s I have BB's transl of M1(Mulapariyaya) w/comy, but still not sure > which part you were referring to. I'm sure I'm being dense. > ====== You should find it at the end of the commentary on "was staying near Ukka.t.thaa in the Subhaga Grove close to the great sal-tree" (Horner transl). Best wishes, Jim 25262 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Nina, The reason for my bewilderment is that I don't see how direct understanding fits into the three kinds of understanding: reason, hearing, development. Are the higher levels of insight considered to be attainments and therefore classified under "development" or are they all reasoning based on hearing and observation? Larry 25263 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. XIV, 15 Tiika: "Although the change-of-lineage knowledge has a measureless object, yet, because of its quality of adverting to the path, it does not obtain the designation of insight." Hi Nina, What does "adverting to the path" mean? Is it self consciousness? Larry 25264 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. XIV, 15 Hi again Nina, I forgot to thank you for the tiika. Also, I was wondering why this understanding is based on object rather than cetasika? The difference between limited and exalted is the cetasikas in the form of jhana factors; the jhana becoming more exalted with less cetasikas. Could nibbaana be simply an absence of cetasikas or at least sa~n~naa? Larry ------------------ Visuddhimagga text: XIV, 15 15. 8. In the second triad, the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a "limited" object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an "exalted" object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs contingent upon nibbana has a "measureless" object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object. 25265 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:08pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim and Sarah, Please don't bother to respond--just wanted to say that this post is the oddest curiosity I've ever encountered on dsg (or maybe elsewhere). No idea if it might lead to anyplace useful... mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Anderson To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] > > "Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its > object, > > not a concept as its object." > > This is quite an interesting statement. Do you think, then, that the > 'attha' and 'dhamma' of the first two discriminations refer to > concepts ie. attha-pa~n~natti & naama-pa~n~natti, respectively? I can > see how language can be perceived as sequences of sounds devoid of any > meaning or names. Often when I'm reciting Pali to myself I just like > to listen to or feel the muscular articulations of the sounds being > uttered without any attempt to understand what they might mean or > stand for. I always thought this was due to laziness on my part, but > the above statement gives me some hope that it may not all be in vain. > > > We read that all Buddhas use the same language, the only one which > doesn't > > change: > > > > "Also the Enlightened One, in announcing the Buddha word of the > Tipitaka, > > did so only in the Magadha tongue. Why? Because in this way it is > easy to > > deduce the meaning; since the only delay for the buddha word > announced in > > the text in the magadha tongue is that occurring when coming to the > ears > > of those who have attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is > > merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a > thousand > > ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by > repeated > > application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an > ordinary > > man, even if he has learnt much; and there is no noble disciple who > has > > not reached the Discriminations" [see also VismX1V,25] > > > > The last line puzzles me. As Nina always reminds us, only some > arahants > > had these discriminations. Not now. There are degrees and the chief > > disciples had them to a greater degree than other disciples which is > why > > Sariputta could listen to the Abhidhamma in brief and immediately > > comprehend it in detail. > > > > Sv 387(Pali- last para),1949 (English) is difficult and has been > raised > > before- the children speaking the Magadha language. Are these > Bodhisattas? > > Nina, Mike, Jim - any comments? > > I don't understand it either. The Magadha tongue is also foremost in > the realms of hell-beings, animals, hungry ghosts, and deities > according to Dispeller §1949. Does this mean that animals can > understand Pali? Perhaps this is so when a Buddha or Arahant is > speaking to them. 25266 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boox Hi Gayan, Thank-you for writing to Ven. Mettavihari about old Pali books in Sri Lanka. Although I can't yet read the Sinhalese script it shouldn't be too much of a problem to learn as I'm able to read Pali in the Devanagari and Burmese scripts. I'm interested in new or used books written in Pali about the Pali language by old grammarians belonging to the school of Kaccayana, Moggallana. and Aggavamsa. And as long as it is about the Pali language whether it's a grammar, a dictionary, or a work on prosody or rhetorics and it's in Pali it should be okay and it doesn't matter if the introduction is in the Sinhalese language. Please ontact me offlist about transaction matters. With appreciation, Jim > Sarah/Jim > > Finally I got a reply from Bhante Mettavihari > > He said --> "I presume you are looking for some old books. > They will all be in Sinhalese script. > I found recently some old books in Maradana > the small shops by the roundabout near (Gamini Hall) " > > So is Sinhalese Script OK? > > If its OK then I probably can persuade somebody to look ,.. > > Regards, > 25267 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Howard, ------------- > I disagree, KH. I think that people at the > Buddha's time, due to the influence of the atma > doctrine of Hinduism, believed in substantial > existence, and, for that matter, most people at all > times are more inclined to substantialist views than to > nihilism. ------------- True, but I think we're both right; In the Mahacattarika Sutta (Majjhimanikaya), we read: "And what is wrong understanding? To hold the view that there is no result from generosity, no fruit or ripening of deeds well done or ill done, that this world does not really exist, that no other world really exists, that there is no benefit from mother and father, . . ." It goes on to explain that the opposite of this wrong (nothingness) understanding, is preferable but still not the Middle Way. My guess is that in the Buddha's day, just as today, people were of three kinds: eternity believers, annihilation (nothing) believers and people who think it's all a lot of hooey and don't have an opinion either way. Leaving the third group aside; educated, inquiring people know that what seems to be a solid, unchanging object, is actually countless subatomic particles, each of which appears and disappears with incredibly high frequency. The ephemerality of the world, as seen by these people, causes their division into two camps; those who believe that ultimately nothing exists; and those who believe that ultimately, a soul (atman), exists. I'm not sure how far to go with this theory but I think the people in the non-existence camp were not immediately motivated to hear the Dhamma. They were just getting on with their lives thinking there is no fruit of deeds well done or ill done and no worlds to aspire to or avoid. The people in the existence camp devote their lives to finding the atman. So, most likely, it was these 'atman seekers' that the Buddha encountered when he first began to teach. (One of the first discourses, the Fire Sermon, was delivered to a group of former fire-worshippers. My guess is that fire worshippers were people who had decided that, in their ephemeral world, the only thing that could be scientifically proven to exist was heat (energy). And therefore, energy, in the form of fire, must be the unchanging entity -- atman.) Of course, the answer provided by the Buddha was that neither camp was right; things, subatomic particles and the energy behind them neither exist nor don't-exist; in ultimate reality, empty nama and rupa rise and fall away in accordance with conditions. Whaddya think? Ken H 25268 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, KH - In a message dated 9/12/03 8:40:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------- > > I disagree, KH. I think that people at the > >Buddha's time, due to the influence of the atma > >doctrine of Hinduism, believed in substantial > >existence, and, for that matter, most people at all > >times are more inclined to substantialist views than to > >nihilism. > ------------- > > True, but I think we're both right; > > In the Mahacattarika Sutta (Majjhimanikaya), we read: > "And what is wrong understanding? To hold the view that > there is no result from generosity, no fruit or ripening > of deeds well done or ill done, that this world does not > really exist, that no other world really exists, that > there is no benefit from mother and father, . . ." > > It goes on to explain that the opposite of this wrong > (nothingness) understanding, is preferable but still not > the Middle Way. > > My guess is that in the Buddha's day, just as today, > people were of three kinds: eternity believers, > annihilation (nothing) believers and people who think > it's all a lot of hooey and don't have an opinion either > way. > > > Of course, the answer provided by the Buddha was that > neither camp was right; things, subatomic particles and > the energy behind them neither exist nor don't-exist; in > ultimate reality, empty nama and rupa rise and fall away > in accordance with conditions. > > Whaddya think? > Ken H > > ========================== I agree that the middle way is neither eternalism/substantialism nor anihillationism/nihilism - that things neither exist substantially and independently nor do they entirely fail to exist. I also agree that both extremes are the common errors of sentient beings, but it is eternalism/substantialism that is the more common of the two. Actually, and doesn't this make us humans weird(!), both extremes can and often do co-exist in the same person! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25269 From: jaranoh Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:34pm Subject: Re: *Jaran* -waiting for feedback;-)(was: meanings of dhamma, no 11.) Dear Sarah: I checked the message you referred to and did not find anything intelligent to add. However as it also discussed about cintaa ~naana, I will contribute to that by continuing the 'week 5 series' which talks about cintaa ~naana. Please see next post. Best Regards, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Jaran & Nina (& Rob Ep), > > --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Sarah: > > Sorry for lerking. Will try to keep up with dsg more. > ..... > That would be good;-)No need to apologise, but to be honest, I'm not sure > if you stay around long enough to read slow replies to your occasional > posts....;-( For example, you sent a bulletin of a discussion at the > foundation w/ K.Sujin and asked a qu about `sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of > insight)'. > com.hk 25270 From: jaranoh Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 5 Dear All: My last post (Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 3) was posted on July 22, 2003. Please refer to it if you are lost. Thanks.--Jaran Q: Is it possible that sati can have only nama, and not ruupa, as its object? A: No, it's not possible. How can it be only nama ..? Q: It [nama] is known as an element of knowing, cognizing.. A: As the dhamma through the eye door is one, ear another, and other door-way are of their on unique characteristics, it is not possible that panna is limited to one single dhamma. As we take everything (not just one) as our 'self', to discern them must be all and not just a single one dhamma. Q: What about seeing when we see a flower, and sati arises to be aware of ruupa-ramana as the visible object... A: Satipatthana is not to 'know' the story, the theory of dhamma that we have studied, but it is aware of the characteristic of ruupa-rammana that is not characteristic of other dhamma. [although there are a lot of realities coarising, the only thing appearing to sati is the ruupa-aramana in this case]. Q: When a visible object is seen, there is also seeing which is a nama... A: The awareness and understanding of the characteristics of dhamma only grow slowly, and it does not necessary refer to the moment of awareness. [In the beginning, the most of the understanding is in the level of thinking, reasoning remembering. Between this, when there are right conditions, satipatthana arises, and after that it's back to the thinking and reasoning again. This is how the understanding develops--back and forth between different level of understanding, and they enhance each other.] Q: Suppose sati is aware of visible object... A: We don't have to discuss vipassana ~nana in oder to understand this. Q: ..but I would like to break in down to step-by-step. When we see visible object, then we could be thinking about many things. At this moment, sati may arise and be aware of the thinking... A: This is cinta~nana. After the arising of namaruupparicheta~nana, which comes after the ~natapari~n~naa (considering, reflecting), there is always thinking. And thinking is also the object of subsequent sati and pa~n~na. And this thinking is what we are so attached to and take it as us, our self. Without pa~n~na to understand that there are thoughts (and the characteristics of thinking) after the ~nata parin~na, the idea of self cannot be (very infinitesimally) discerned. 25271 From: Andrew Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:38pm Subject: Luminous mind Dear all At the Cooran weekend, we briefly discussed the idea of the mind being luminous (I think it was in relation to Reg's article?). In the Brahmanimantanika Sutta, the following verse appears: "Consciousness non-manifesting, Boundless, luminous all-round". Bhikkhu Bodhi notes (513): "... if we take pabham as 'luminous', which seems better justified, the verse links up with the idea of the mind as intrinsically luminous (pabhassaram idam cittam, AN i.10) and also suggests the light of wisdom (pannapabha), called the best of lights (AN ii.139). I understand this consciousness to be, not Nibbana itself, but the arahant's consciousness during the meditative experience of Nibbana ... this meditative experience does not manifest any conditioned phenomena of the world, and thus may be truly described as 'non-manifesting'." Metta Andrew 25272 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard TG Hi TG, -------------- > It should not be said that "states arise and > immediately cease." It should be said that states are > "continually altering." ------------- In the Loka Sutta, the Buddha describes the all -- the world. As I remember, he says it is eye base and eye object (rupa khandha), eye mind (vinnana khandha plus sankhara khandha), eye contact (sanna-khandha) and the feeling dependent on eye contact (vedana-khandha). That is literally all. There is no hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking; there is just those five eye-khandhas. Then he says the all is ear base and ear object and so on. At that time just those five ear-khandhas exist; no eye-khandhas, nothing else. At the present moment there is only one world and it can be any one of the six kinds. Does the Buddha say that anything is carried over from the previous world to this one? Ken H 25273 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard In a message dated 9/12/2003 9:15:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > In the Loka Sutta, the Buddha describes the all -- the > world. As I remember, he says it is eye base and eye > object (rupa khandha), eye mind (vinnana khandha plus > sankhara khandha), eye contact (sanna-khandha) and the > feeling dependent on eye contact (vedana-khandha). That > is literally all. There is no hearing, smelling, > tasting, touching, thinking; there is just those five > eye-khandhas. > > Then he says the all is ear base and ear object and so > on. At that time just those five ear-khandhas exist; no > eye-khandhas, nothing else. > > At the present moment there is only one world and it can > be any one of the six kinds. Does the Buddha say that > anything is carried over from the previous world to this > one? > > Ken H > Hi Ken H I think you had better find the sutta and copy it down. There are several suttas where the Buddha deals with "The All" and I've never heard one deal with it in the way you've stated here. Especially as detailed in your last two paragraphs. Apparantly you are saying that when hearing a sound, the eye doesn't exist? I think you'd have to search pretty hard to find the Buddha saying that, and then I think you would still not find it. ;) Here's what the Dispeller of Delusion, an Abhidhamma commentary, says about causal happenings... 'A mere state that has got its conditions Ushers in the subsequent existence It has not transmigrated from the past Nor does it come about, not caused thereby' (Dispeller of Delusion, (Sammohavinodani), Ch. 6, 741) 'So it is this mere material and immaterial state [matter and mind], which arises when it has obtained its conditions, that ushers in (lit. "comes into") the subsequent existence, is what is said [above]; it is not a lasting being, not a soul, and it has neither transmigrated here from a past existence, nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that [past conditions].' (Dispeller of Delusion, Ch. 6, 742) Past interactions conditioned the present, the present interactions condition the future. There is nothing that travels through time unchanged, nor is there anything that arises that was not caused by past conditions/interactions. TG 25274 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:13am Subject: questions on not-self Dear Group, I have been reading again 'The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic' Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-059.html Is it fair to say that Self is a relationship to any particular data coming through the sense doors that regards it as 'this is part of me', 'this is what I am'; and that anatta (not-self) is a relationship that does not try to hang on, hold to, or control any experience i.e. one says 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am'? The quote in the sutta seems very specific, seemingly related to a single present moment. 'THIS is not mine THIS is not my self THIS is not what I am'. Things happen so quickly, so continuously, that one is grabbed by a thought, sight, sound or a feeling before even knowing it has happened. Once having clung to an experience or incoming sense data, how does one let go? What is 'letting go'? Can one 'let go'? What is 'enchantment/disenchantment'? Are they different to 'clinging' 'not clinging' 'craving' 'not craving'? And what is the difference between disenchantment and dispassion? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25275 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: Proximate cause of understanding Jim Nina's 'Cetasikas' (Ch. 34) quotes the following passage from the Atthasaalini I, Book I, Part IV, chapter I, 123 which I presume is from the PTS translation: "Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, as it were a lamp; non-perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were a good guide in the forest." Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Sarah, ... > Regarding the Vimuttimagga, I was curious to find out what it had > to > say on the proximate or near cause of wisdom. There is no mention > of > concentration being the proximate cause but instead (on p. 230) it > mentions 'the four truths' (as with Dhammapaala who also recognizes > concentration) and 'the four kinds of analytical science'. Doesn't > the > latter sound an awful lot like the four pa.tisambhidas? 25276 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Chris and Azita Many thanks for being the channel for us to hear from Paul/Chittapala. I know he considers the teachings very sincerely. Please give him my regards and best wishes if you are in touch. I'm looking forward to reading the article. Jon --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > Azita has had some difficulty posting this first part of the > article > by her friend Chittapala - and has asked me to forward it. Any > comments would be most welcome: > > "THE SEXUAL ETHIC OF THE MIDDLE WAY > > by Chittapala > 25277 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi TG, ----------- > I think you had better find the sutta and copy it down. > There are several suttas where the Buddha deals with > "The All" and I've never heard one deal with it in the > way you've stated here. Especially as detailed in your > last two paragraphs. > > Apparantly you are saying that when hearing a sound, > the eye doesn't exist? --------------- Thanks for your advice, I do need to improve my study skills. The notion of just one conscious moment at a time is very elementary Theravada Buddhism, though. I'm surprised you were surprised. ---------------- > I think you'd have to search pretty hard to find the > Buddha saying that, and then I think you would still > not find it. ;) ----------------- He didn't say it the way you have -- "the eye doesn't exist" -- but certainly, when there is hearing, there is only hearing. I find him saying that in everything I read. If you have devised a method of screening out parts of the Tipitaka and commentaries that you don't like, then it's hard to have a constructive discussion. ------------------ > Here's what the Dispeller of Delusion, an Abhidhamma > commentary, says about causal happenings... ----------------- Thanks, I agree entirely with what you quoted. But what I'm trying to say is, if you refuse to accept the Abhidamma, it is meaningless to select parts of it and quote them in order to refute the whole of it. As a struggling beginner, there's no way I can understand suttas without the help of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. And I certainly can't do battle with you if I have to keep one hand tied behind my back :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25278 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:15am Subject: Re: Re Chittapala and simply living. Hello Azita, Azita said: "on the trip from Brisbane to Cooran, I made a flippant statement about dogs having more Moha than humans and was almost set upon by the other two in the car [not mentioning names], to explain myself. How did I know this bit of info. and could I prove it?!?" CJF: As one of the unfairly maligned unnamed occupants of the car [I was the one driving and quivering in terror of a whack on the ear if I looked like dozing off :-)], may I protest that you did not (at first) use the term 'moha', which caused a little confusion. Avijja (moha)is that which makes me believe life is ultimately satisfying, wonderful, and lasting. I'm not so sure Rusty or Smokey- Joe give it a thought. They just 'are' and don't philosophise about it. May I offer an article by Francis Storey 'The Place of Animals in Buddhism' http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/fstory4.htm "Buddhism shows that both animals and human beings are the products of Ignorance conjoined with Craving, and that the differences between them are the consequences of past Kamma. In this sense, though not in any other, 'all life is one'. It is one in its origin, Ignorance- craving, and in its subjection to the universal law of causality." ----------------------------------------------------- Azita: Well, I had to quickly backtrack bec I couldn't explain 'how I knew'' but somehow it feels like a correct statement. Dogs seem to sleep a lot and they do seem a bit dopey. CJF: I'm sure we all know a few homo-sapiens with those qualities. Rusty does not wish to offend, but he wishes to remind members of the entries in Nyanatiloka's dictionary under the heading of 'mana' - particularly 'atimana'. It should be pointed out that many animals are capable of performing kusala kamma - tales abound of self- sacrificing acts. And Francis Storey quotes some of the Jataka Tales that also mention this as well. -------------------------------------------------- Azita: I'll probably have the wrath of dog lovers down on me, but aren't animals born so bec they have been stupid??? CJF: Depends on your definition of 'stupid' and on whether you think 'we' are in fixed forms. Dogs have all the necessary intelligence to manage in their body-form. My understanding is that a process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena can re-become in animal form due to past kamma. My understanding is that this has happened to us all many times, and that animal rebirth is the result of Wrong View. If animal rebirth was the direct consequence of stupidity, surely there would be deserted cities and quite a crowd of us in the oceans, mountains and jungles - with very little hope of deliverance any aeon soon. -------------------------------------------------- metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" 25279 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Dear Kenhowardau: --------------------------------------------------------------- KenH:" As a struggling beginner, there's no way I can understand > suttas without the help of the Abhidhamma and the > commentaries. And I certainly can't do battle with you > if I have to keep one hand tied behind my back :-)" ----------------------------------------------------------------- This is sure right, Ken!!! I am a reader of Dhammapada (Bikkhu K. Assrany´s portuguese translation) and of Sutta Nipata (Saddhatissa´s english translation) from my teens, and the reading of Abhidhamma (mainly the Dhammasangani) opened up entirely my understanding about these texts... and many others! I´ve got now a more clever mind picture of the Suttas´ main structure(if there is any!!!). I´ve downloaded all Visuddhimagga in german, but the so meritorious task of reading german and hearing Die Deutschewelle must to be postponed till I arrive back from boot camp!!! I am departing today!!! Good Hunting, kenH !!! Mettaya, Ícaro 25280 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:46am Subject: BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Dear Sarah, Jon, Chris, KenH, Jim and friends I am departing today to my military boot camp. I will be off-line a lot of days and I closed my E-mail box at Yahoo´s to discussion group messages: if I get some spare time and internet access, I will read and post the messages for dsg´s and pali´s direclty at group pages! And my Dhamma Diary is going on and on!!! Don´t you all even conceive to nurture the impression of a thought to miss my thrilling next chapter: "After a MUTTON Scèance, what´s Reality ?" Ah, Sarah... "Mutton Scèance" means An Evening meal of Lamb...it´s a sure influence of the animated cartoon "Sheep in the Big City" (I-am-really-watching-so-much-"Sheep in the Big City"- at-Cartoon- Network!) I will be back... Mettaya, Ícaro 25281 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Proximate cause of understanding Hi Jon, The statement: "non-perplexity as its proximate cause," is due to a translation mistake in The Expositor and was corrected by Nina after I pointed it out. You must have missed the following correction Nina posted to DSG on Aug. 3: < Datum: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 06:28:56 +0200 Aan: Gwyn Davies Onderwerp: Re: perfections and attachm. Dear Alan, Thank you very much, I announced it already. I have a correction now for Cetasikas, p. 321, definition of understanding by Atthasalini: change into . non-perplexity as manifestation. This was a mistake in the Expositor from which I quoted(I, p. 162) and corrected by a Pali expert. Nina.>> > Jim > > Nina's 'Cetasikas' (Ch. 34) quotes the following passage from the > Atthasaalini I, Book I, Part IV, chapter I, 123 which I presume is > from the PTS translation: > > "Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering > penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow > shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, > as it were a lamp; non-perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were > a good guide in the forest." > > Jon > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Sarah, > ... > > Regarding the Vimuttimagga, I was curious to find out what it had > > to > > say on the proximate or near cause of wisdom. There is no mention > > of > > concentration being the proximate cause but instead (on p. 230) it > > mentions 'the four truths' (as with Dhammapaala who also recognizes > > concentration) and 'the four kinds of analytical science'. Doesn't > > the > > latter sound an awful lot like the four pa.tisambhidas? > 25282 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, TG (and Ken H) - In a message dated 9/13/03 2:07:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Ken H > > I think you had better find the sutta and copy it down. There are several > suttas where the Buddha deals with "The All" and I've never heard one deal > with > it in the way you've stated here. Especially as detailed in your last two > paragraphs. > > Apparantly you are saying that when hearing a sound, the eye doesn't exist? > > I think you'd have to search pretty hard to find the Buddha saying that, and > > then I think you would still not find it. ;) > > Here's what the Dispeller of Delusion, an Abhidhamma commentary, says about > causal happenings... > > 'A mere state that has got its conditions > Ushers in the subsequent existence > It has not transmigrated from the past > Nor does it come about, not caused thereby' (Dispeller of Delusion, > (Sammohavinodani), Ch. 6, 741) > > 'So it is this mere material and immaterial state [matter and mind], which > arises when it has obtained its conditions, that ushers in (lit. "comes > into") > the subsequent existence, is what is said [above]; it is not a lasting > being, > not a soul, and it has neither transmigrated here from a past existence, nor > > yet is it manifested here without cause from that [past conditions].' > (Dispeller of Delusion, Ch. 6, 742) > > Past interactions conditioned the present, the present interactions > condition > the future. There is nothing that travels through time unchanged, nor is > there anything that arises that was not caused by past > conditions/interactions. > > TG > ================================ I understand what you are saying here, TG. I think it is correct, but can be extended a bit, modified a bit. It is true that on a given occasion, there are just eye sense, visual object, and visual awareness operative. I would add to this, however, that it is also true that certain other past conditions have likely occurred which constitute (or create) the potential for the subsequent arising (pending, perhaps the arising of one or two additional supportive conditions) of, say, the arising of ear sense, audible object, and auditory awareness. So, what I'm saying is that although, on a given occasion, there is only one act of contact that is actual, there are typically numerous other acts, via the same and other sense doors, that are potentials of varying degrees, "waiting in the wings" as it were. For the full picture, I think we need to look at both actuality and potentiality, because previously occuring conditions result in both current actualities and in current potentialities. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25283 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Hi, Icaro - I wish everything good for you. May you learn well, be safe, and find time for Dhamma practice (which can be almost any time that doesn't require 100% devotion of attention elsewhere - like climbing over wooden walls or crawling on your belly under obstacles with live ammunition whizzing over your head! ;-). With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/13/03 7:46:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > Dear Sarah, Jon, Chris, KenH, Jim and friends > > I am departing today to my military boot camp. I will be off-line > a lot of days and I closed my E-mail box at Yahoo´s to discussion > group messages: if I get some spare time and internet access, I will > read and post the messages for dsg´s and pali´s direclty at group > pages! > And my Dhamma Diary is going on and on!!! Don´t you all even > conceive to nurture the impression of a thought to miss my thrilling > next chapter: "After a MUTTON Scèance, what´s Reality ?" > > Ah, Sarah... "Mutton Scèance" means An Evening meal of Lamb...it´s > a sure influence of the animated cartoon "Sheep in the Big City" > (I-am-really-watching-so-much-"Sheep in the Big City"- at-Cartoon- > Network!) > > I will be back... > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25284 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] questions on not-self In a message dated 9/13/2003 1:14:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > The quote in the sutta seems very specific, seemingly related to a > single present moment. 'THIS is not mine THIS is not my self THIS > is not what I am'. > Hi Christine When the Buddha says -- "this is not Mine..., etc.," the word "this" is not indicating a temporal moment, the word "this" is referring to whatever aggregate or element or state he is referring to at that time. I've never seen one of those where he was referring to time. At least that's the way I see it. Random deluded based thoughts cannot be stopped simply by trying to stop them. (Maybe short term they can but not indefinitely.) That's why insight is needed. Insight "occupies the mind" not letting the "deluded mental meandering" get a chance to meander. Insight's culmination in arahatship results in the elimination of delusion. At that point the problem is permanently solved. TG 25285 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard In a message dated 9/13/2003 3:14:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Thanks, I agree entirely with what you quoted. But what > I'm trying to say is, if you refuse to accept the > Abhidamma, it is meaningless to select parts of it and > quote them in order to refute the whole of it. > Hi Ken H This will be my last post on this matter. Regarding the above statement, I don't reject anything or accept anything without testing it. I find most of the Abhidhamma very useful. I also find some "abhidhamma interpretations/commentaries" to be questionable if not downright harmful. The Buddha didn't encourge serious thinking people that he was face to face with to blindly believe him. He wanted them to test the teaching. How much more so documents that are 2,500 years old. The Buddha basically said (paraphrasing) -- ...to accept what is well spoken (what works) and reject what is poorly spoken (what doesn't work.) I definitely encourge study of abhidhamma although I think the suttas are the heart of the matter. But more than that I recommend not believing anything without testing it to see if it works. If its beyond the ability to test, then its not worth developing a strong opinion (or any opinion) about IMO. TG 25286 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] questions on not-self Hello TG, Thanks for your post. There is only the present moment. In reality, I don't think there is any other time. Once, I firmly believed that 'insight's culmination' would be "In this very life" as per U Pandita. I am no longer so sure of the imminence of enlightenment. I think I expressed myself a little awkwardly in my initial post. My first teacher followed the Burmese manner of formal samatha-vipassana meditation (with noting). So, I meant paying attention to the four domains of body, feeling, mind and phenomena - paying attention to whichever constantly changing dhamma is arising and ceasing in this present moment ... and being aware that, whatever it is, 'THIS is not me, THIS is not mine, THIS is not my self.' metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... 25287 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa (nina) hi nina, Thanks for your comments. I think i have alot to study, observe and contemplate before I really understand this. I was wondering if I could also get your your opinion regarding below: There is no question that the visudhimaga and the abhidamma are valuable books. I was wondering why I have read much criticism toward it; and what problems they are referring to? I notice many people find it indispensable to clarify the more arcane matters, and in defining certain aspects of dhamma. Do you feel they are indispensible in clarifying matters or do you think it is possible to recieve a full understanding with only the nikayas? would appreciate any comments. peace and metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Nori, > you touched on a very complex subject. I looked at the sutta and Co, but I > have to continue studying it. 25288 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Ken: "The notion of just one conscious moment at a time is very elementary Theravada Buddhism, though." Hi Ken, I agree but I would like to see more explanation from the texts on this. For example, I think there has to be a difference between internal rupa and external rupa. Surely abhidhamma isn't saying the external rupa that makes up the sense bases only lasts, at most, for the duration of 17 consciousnesses. I think this 17X lifetime only applies to the *impulse* that is generated by the sensitive matter of the sense base and interrupts the bhavanga stream. I don't know if abhidhamma has identified such an impulse though. This also slightly complicates "contact". Is contact when external rupa contacts sense base or when consciousness contacts this impulse? I would think all the sense bases are constantly being bombarded with external contact, all at the same time. What dictates one consciousness at a time? Larry 25289 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] questions on not-self Hi Christine, My 2-cents worth below: Christine: Is it fair to say that Self is a relationship to any particular data coming through the sense doors that regards it as 'this is part of me', 'this is what I am'; and that anatta (not-self) is a relationship that does not try to hang on, hold to, or control any experience i.e. one says 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am'? Larry: Instead of saying "one says" I would say "one knows". This doesn't have to be cosmicly profound knowing. It could be very mundane. The relationship is actually dependent arising. C: The quote in the sutta seems very specific, seemingly related to a single present moment. 'THIS is not mine THIS is not my self THIS is not what I am'. L: I agree with what you said to TG about 'noting'. We are identifying specific stuff, in the moment. That identification in itself goes a long way in de-identifying-with whatever. As the light of understanding brightens we see more and are more deeply convinced this is not worth clinging to in any way. C: Things happen so quickly, so continuously, that one is grabbed by a thought, sight, sound or a feeling before even knowing it has happened. L: Maybe we are "grabbed" only as long as we don't know what happened. I think we are dealing with past experience, sometimes very recent past experience, as accumulation and de-stickifying it. C: Once having clung to an experience or incoming sense data, how does one let go? What is 'letting go'? Can one 'let go'? L: I agree there is no real hanging-onto or letting go but we set up patterns of values that provoke reactions and undo these patterns by reprogramming the values through understanding. C: What is 'enchantment/disenchantment'? L: Enchantment is being captured by your own spell. Disenchantment is seeing through the magic. See the Kalakarama Sutta. C: Are they different to 'clinging' 'not clinging' 'craving' 'not craving'? And what is the difference between disenchantment and dispassion? L: Clinging is owning as me or mine. Craving is wanting. Disenchantment is awakening. Dispassion is the result. Larry 25290 From: jaranoh Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:09pm Subject: week 5 (Jul 7 02) no 6 Q: Let's take a step back before satipatthana. Citta does not experience the dhamma, but understand the 'story' (all pannati). It seems that pannatti is more powerful than the paramattha dhamma. It's hard to be aware of it 'in time' before it falls away. Ajarn Sujin, you have been teaching us, but still we have not heard enough from you. Could you continue the discussion on this subject once again? A: Yes. This is very important. We often talk about satipatthana, vipassana ~na.na, lokutara citta etc. We often forget or ignore that there is important understanding in the level before arising of satipatthana. First of all, we don't have to think whether or not sati will arise. But it is far more important to understand that everything daily is dhamma, reality, element that exist without anyone's creation. Nobody can create, and we cannot cause them to happen. As we are thinking of creating some dhamma or causing them to arise, a dhamma has already arisen. However, when the dhamma arise, we are not aware and don't understand its characteristics because we are busy hoping for something else to arise or trying to make something else arise. For example, when we talk about the moment of seeing being dhamma, which is ordinary. Sacca ~na.na understands firmly that this seeing is anatta and has arisen. The nature of dhamma, all realities, are is simply this way: they are anatta, so noone can create and control. They always appear as they arise, and it's up to the level of understanding to undertand and be aware of their characteristics and nature. Now dhamma has arisen but if satipatthana does not arise, there won't be true understanding of characteristics of that dhamma. This is understanding in sacca ~na.na level. One should firmly understand (have the knowledge of) the nature of dhamma and sati, etc, in the intellectual level instead of attempting to 'do' something or 'make' something happen. Thinking of dhamma, understanding that there are characteristics and nature to be understood directly is on the right path of directly experience the dhamma. Sometime later after when this knowledge has settled in the mind firmly, sati, even without calling it sati, arises to be aware of the dhamma and its nature. Without having to do anything, making anything arise, but understanding that there are characteristics to be understood, the right understanding begins to develop. This is difficult since we are not familiar with the characteristics of dhamma because of our ignorance. We are more familiar with 'hope', 'ambition', 'desire' and 'work for what we want'. But if we listen enough to understand that sacca ~na.na is the deep and profound understanding of dhukkha-sacca in four ariya sacca, we should understand that everything appearing now arise and fall away, is dhukka, and does not below to anyone. This is because they fall away as they arise, so noone can take them into possession. Q: Often, we just are not made to think this way... A: Right understanding accumulates .. starting from here. Q: We are stuck at the 'story' of dhamma. A: Well, what we are talking about is also 'story'. But it is the basis of right understand of higher level. 25291 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Larry, ------------ > Ken: "The notion of just one conscious moment at a > time is very elementary Theravada Buddhism, though." > > > I agree but I would like to see more explanation from the texts on this. --------------- As you say, we need explanations of how, in the present moment, there can be only one of the six worlds. But the fact there is only this present moment doesn't need any explanation, does it? It only needs a little common sense. If, in this present moment, there could be more than one world -- for example, if there could be both hearing and seeing -- then consciousness would be seeing-hearing consciousness and the object of consciousness would be visible-audible object. But that's not how it is; 'In the seen there is only the seen, in the heard there is only the heard.' That is what we are told in the suttas and it is easily verified by our own direct experience. --------------- > For example, I think there has to be a difference > between internal rupa and external rupa. Surely > abhidhamma isn't saying the external rupa that > makes up the sense bases . . . ------------- If I can stop you there Larry; does the Abhidhamma say that the sense bases are made up of external rupas? I have the idea that each sense base is a rupa (a single rupa) in its own right. (?) -------------- > only lasts, at most, for the duration of 17 > consciousnesses. --------------- I forget now, but I think the sense base rupa arises and falls away with each sense citta. It is only the sense object rupa that lasts up to 17 moments of citta.(?) ------------- > I think this 17X lifetime only applies to the *impulse* > that is generated by the sensitive matter of the sense > base and interrupts the bhavanga stream. I don't know > if abhidhamma has identified such an impulse though. ----------- No, I haven't heard it described that way, as far as I can remember. -------------- > This also slightly complicates "contact". Is contact > when external rupa contacts sense base or when > consciousness contacts this impulse? --------------- Contact is a cetasika; it happens with every citta. --------------- > I would think all the sense bases are constantly being > bombarded with external contact, all at the same time. > What dictates one consciousness at a time? -------------- Could you be confusing conventional physiology with Dhamma here, Larry? When there is a process of bhavanga cittas, no sense bases are conditioned to arise. So there is no bombarding of any sense bases at that time. After a sense-rupa has attracted the attention of the bhavanga citta, then the appropriate sense base and sense consciousness may be conditioned to arise. No other sense bases are conditioned at that time so there can never be simultaneous bombarding of diverse sense bases. Thanks for the questions; they have shaken out a few cobwebs. Kind regards, Ken H 25292 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I'm skipping the earlier part of your post which > involves,among other > things, the distinctions between Buddhas and other arahants, which > I discussed > rather unclearly, and which isn't all that important anyway. What I > am > including is the final part of our conversation which I think is > quite important, > and which delights me in that it shows us to be VERY much "on the > same page" as > regards practice/cultivation and issues of "control". I find it > amazing (and > quite pleasant) that we actually are very close on this matter. > > With metta, > Howard It's kind of you to say so, Howard. I, too, find it pleasantly surprising that we should be so close on these important issues. Let's hope it lasts ;-)) Jon 25293 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Icaro! It's a slow old day here! there aren't many of us around to farewell you. If it's not too late, on behalf of all at dsg; Have a safe boot camp and we look forward to hearing from you as soon as it suits you. Ken H 25294 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:45am Subject: Concentration and samatha Howard Your post to Susan and others revives an interesting thread that we (you and I and Larry and others) have discussed at some length before, namely, the distinction between (a) the development of concentration in the sense of consciousness repeatedly taking the same chosen or preferred object and (b) tranquillity development (samatha bhavana). To my understanding, there is a clear and crucial difference between the two, which tends to get overlooked. First, the mental factor of concentration has no particular moral (kusala or akusala) quality or flavour to it. That is to say, the activity of 'concentrating on a single object' takes its moral quality from other accompanying factors. If the concentrated mind is to be kusala, it must be so by virtue of other exclusively kusala mental factors. Tranquillity development/samatha bhavana, on the other hand, refers to mind-states that are accompanied by exclusively kusala mental factors such as passaddhi (tranquility) and panna (understanding), in this instance the panna that sees the danger in attachment to sense objects and that knows by their respective characteristics the difference between kusala and akusala mind-states. Secondly, it is not a necessary aspect of samatha bhavana that there be any particular degree of concentration in the sense of repeated and continuous taking of the same object by consciousness. To my understanding, even concentration that is associated with akusala mind-states can be developed to high levels, including to jhana if I'm not mistaken. Accordingly, it should not be assumed that signs of progress in the development of concentration (e.g., the appearance of an after-image) are necessarily indicative of the development of the kusala that is samatha bhavana. To take the instance of a mantra such as that you mention, I'm sure it would help in developing concentration, but it's not clear to me why there would be (or, indeed, how there could be) any kusala involved in that activity. I'm sure you have some thoughts on this matter. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Susan, Mike, and Sarah - > > A number of years ago I talked for an hour or so with > Piyatissa > Mahathera at the NY Buddhist Vihara. We got to discussing jhanas - > he believed that > I had made some progress in that direction at the time. It was > Bhante P's > opinion that one could even use a mantra like 1-2-3-4, 4-3-2-1 etc, > and that would > work just fine! He wasn't all that concerned with the object of > concentration. I had been using a TM mantra at the time rather > successfully. Subsequently, > I've been told that it sounds like I had been shuttling between the > 2nd and > 5th jhanas. Whatever the case, it's not clear that there were any > long-term > benefits that accrued to me from that, except for the confidence > created that > "there are more things in heaven and earth ... ." Perhaps had I > pursued the jhanas > further, greater benefits might have resulted. > > With metta, > Howard 25295 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! That goes for me too, Ic. All the best. Jon --- kenhowardau wrote: > Icaro! > > It's a slow old day here! there aren't many of us around to > farewell > you. > > If it's not too late, on behalf of all at dsg; Have a safe boot > camp > and we look forward to hearing from you as soon as it suits you. > > > Ken H 25296 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma usage Nori Hello from me. I've been following your well-thought out comments and questions for some time, but haven't had an opportunity to join in until now. --- norakat147 wrote: > hi nina, all, ... > I am wondering: Why read and reference later re-interpretations and > commentary ? > > Is it necessary ? > > Is not the totality of the Buddhas teachings contained within the > four Nikayas ? The entirety of the teachings is contained within the four Nikayas, but their intended meaning is not always readily apparent to us. The reason for this, as I see it, is that the teachings were for the most part presented to an audience of monks and lay followers who had a very high level of developed understanding. It is in the nature of things that beings who are ripe for enlightenment are born into the world at the time of a Buddha's arising, so we should not be surprised that the sermons were pitched at a level that is somewhat beyond us ;-)). Even at the time of the Buddha a similar situation applied. There are numerous instances in the suttas and commentaries of a teaching that had been given by the Buddha having to be elaborated and expanded upon afterwards by one of the chief disciples for the benefit of those who weren't able to 'get it' at the time. Indeed, this is how the ancient commentaries first came to be established. Now let's look at a specific instance. In an earlier post you asked about the relationship between nama and rupa, in the cntext of the links in the chain of dependent origination, and you wondered whether nama comes from rupa or vice versa. To give ourselves an idea of the complexity of this area, here are some of the relationships/conditions at work at the single moment at which seeing consciousness experiences visible-object: - The visible-object (a rupa) conditions the seeing consciousness (nama) by way of 'object' condition. - The visible-object, which must have arisen slightly before the moment of seeing consciousness, also conditions the seeing consciousness by way of 'prenascence' condition. - The moment of seeing consciousness (nama) is a moment of vipaka, that is, it is conditioned by 'kamma' condition (it is the result of a moment of intention (a nama) that accompanied some action performed in the past). - Every moment of seeing consciousness needs the simultaneous occurrence of the arising of an eye-base (a rupa), and that moment of eye-base is conditioned by kamma (but not the same kamma that conditions the moment of seeing consciousness). - The visible-object itself may have been conditioned by temperature (rupa) alone (in the case of inanimate matter) or by kamma (nama), nutrition (rupa) and temperature (in the case of animate mater e.g. a person). I could go on, but I shall stop there. Already we can see that the seeing consciousness is related to the visible-object in more than 1 way, and is also dependent on past deeds and the kamma that conditions the eye-base. So you can see there is no simple answer to your question.;-)). This kind of detail is for the most part not apparent on a reading of the suttas alone. It is all useful and indeed necessary background to the understanding of the characteristics on 'not-self' and 'impermanence' that pervade the teachings. When the Buddha asked the monks "Is seeing/visible-object permanent?" and they answered "No" they were speaking from an understanding based on direct experience of dhammas at a level that is far beyond us in these times. He did not have to explain about such matters. I hope this helps show the need for support from the rest of the canon in coming to a proper understanding of the suttas. Just a personal perspective. Comments welcome. Jon 25297 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:concept as condition Dear Nina (Toby, Howard, Ken H, TG, Jon), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Upanissaya paccaya(decisive support condition) is rather tricky. ..... .... S: Yes, that was why I was careful to make a rather general comment (at end of post);-). While I agree with TG that the Dhamma is for testing and checking out, I also think we need to take the Dhamma-Vinaya (including the Abhidhamma) as our teacher. On this point, Jon wrote before: ***** Jon (to Howard): “I believe that when we come across something like this that runs counter to our intuitive views we should resist the temptation to immediately rationalise or reject it, and should simply acknowledge the difference that exists and keep it in mind for future reference. If later we find it confirmed by other textual sources, then maybe we need to consider further our views on the subject.” ***** and on another thread (to Herman): Jon: “On the face of it, the story-line runs counter to standards we have been brought up to consider fair and decent. Actually, there are a number of aspects to the teachings that run counter to either our taught values or innately held beliefs, but many of these things we have now come to recognise as having merit or as more than likely being in accordance with the way things are.” ***** and once more (to Christine): Jon: “If it's any consolation, Chris, many people have gone through similar exasperations in coming to understand the teachings. Being one of those myself, I've come to realise that there's a very simple explanation for this -- the teachings are counter-intuitive to wrong view!” ****** Nina: > Concepts are object-condition, but as far as I understand it, they are not mentioned under the objects which can be object-predominance and object decisive support condiitons. I looked at the charts of Ven. Narada, p.128. But as to natural strong dependence, food, climate, I think there are concepts. Generally, the Patthana deals only with paramattha dhammas. But the chart on p. 137 mentions the concepts which are the objects of jhana as object-condition. So, the last one is not easy: friends, climate, etc. are they the paramatthas which they represent or also the concepts of a whole? I would like to check this again, and correct if necessary. In the chart I do not see concepts under natural strong dependence. [...] > Yes, I have it. Concepts are pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural strong dependence condition) for kusala or akusala. A human being, for instance can be object of metta or respect.< ..... S: A tricky area as you say! I’ve asked K.Sujin about these points more than once, but sometimes I forget the answers and in any case it’s helpful to check the texts. I’ll add a few more references. ***** Guide to Conditional Relations by U Narada, Ch 11, p9: Under object condition, it lists all objects including concepts: “Of these latter objects, materiality, consciousness and mental factors are either of the past, present or future but Nibbana and concept are time-freed. So in this object condition there is no state that cannot be an object of consciousness and mental factors. This object condition pervades the teaching in the Pali canon.” ***** As there is no doubt about all concepts being included under this condition, I won’t add more references on it. I also understand that concepts cannot be conditioning states as object-predominance and therefore not as object decisive support condition either. ch11, p14 “Concepts do not possess intrinsic characteristics. As only ultimate realities with such characteristics are dealt with here, concepts are never conditioning states of object-predominance.” U Silananda’s charts (as shown in CMA) confirm object predominance and object decisive suport conditioning states are the same. ***** CMA ch V111, 17 (transl of AbhidhamatthaSangaha): “In two ways concepts and mind-and-matter are conditions for mind -namely, by way of object and decisive support. (aaramma.navasena upanissayavasenaa ti ca duvidhaa pa~n~natti naamaruupani naamass’eva paccayaa honti). It continues to mention the various objects and the wide nature of natural decisive support conditions including states of lust, states of faith, individuals, food, season, lodgings etc. In the latter cases, I understand it to be the concepts referred to. For example, looking at a picture of food, all that is seen is visible object, but the thoughts about what is seen --the concepts -- can be a decisive condition for attachment. Likewise, now, I’m looking out of the window at the rain and instantly it can be a condition (the concept) for aversion. Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma (comy to the above), Ch8,22: “....Therefore natural decisive-support causal conditions consist of greed, etc or faith, etc, that have been produced in one’s own mental continuity, or seasonal change and food, etc, that have been repeatedly experienced.” ***** Sayadaw U Silananda’s charts (inc in CMA) Under natural decisive support condition, it lists “strong previous 89cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas and some kinds of pa~n~natti (concepts)” as conditioning factors. (Under object condition any concept can be the conditioning factor, but here only ‘some kinds’ are listed.) ***** Pa.t.thaana (Conditional Relations - last bk of Abhidhamma Pitaka): In ‘Analytical Exposition of the Conditions’, p.7, under strong-dependence condition refers to weather, food, a person and a lodging-place as conditioning factors. (I assume these are just examples but wonder how ‘some concepts’ might be defined. As Azita and I know, the concept of a computer would appear to be a ‘decisive-support’ condition for some pretty strong mental states...). Under ‘Faultless Triplet’, p159 under natural strong-dependence condition it lists wholesome states condtioning unwholesome ones which are always a good reminder. Eg, “By the strong dependence of wisdom, (one) arouses conceit, adopts wrong views”. How useful it can be to reflect on the various conditions. On p.164 it mentions the concepts listed already such as temperature, food, lodging-place and so on. Eg “Lodging-place is related to bodily happiness, bodily pain, attainment of Fruition by strong-depenence condition.” ***** Nina, thank you and also Toby & Howard for raising these questions. It’s been very helpful for me to check and consider again more carefully. Jon and I had fun pulling out texts and discussing these details a little last night too;-) Finally, a couple of good reminders from U Narada, the translator of Patthana (Conditional Relations): “With regard to the Abhidhamma expounded by the Buddha, the analyses of the states involved are difficult and the individual characteristics (sabhaava) of the states are deep and profound.” and “If one considers the teaching of the Abhidhamma starting with the Dhammasangani and ending with Patthana, it will be seen that aggregates, bases, elements and so on are expounded in them. This shows that the realities, with which Abhidhamma deals, consist of aggregates, bases and elements that behave according to their own natures and, therefore, are not dependent on one’s wishes. In other words, the realities behave according to the principle of anatta.” (from Preface to Guide to Conditional Relations by U Narada). With metta, Sarah ===== S: > > If we look at the 24 paccaya, concepts are also included in arammana paccaya(object condition) and upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition). 25298 From: Frank Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:16am Subject: question I recently started reading "Abhidhamma in Daily life" (1997 edition). At the beginning a distinction is made between citta and cetasika. One fundamental aspect of this distinction puzzles me: p. 13: "Citta and cetasika are namas which experience an object […]" The way I understand this – and correct me if I'm wrong – is that cetasikas "colour" or "help" the citta to construct/experience an object. But then there's this: p. 9: "vedana, is a cetasika which arises with every citta." p. 17: "Vedanakhandha (feeling) is real; we can experience feelings." If a cetasika experiences an object (cf. p. 13), then who is the "we" doing the experiencing on p. 17? Frank 25299 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, When you write (as you have before) about the difference between concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being an akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show the difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the Dhammasangani §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. Also, on another point you make, I wonder if it's possible that jhaanic states could ever be classified as akusala since they are not classified as such in this category in Dhs. However, I can see how they could serve as conditions for future unwholesome states. Best wishes, Jim > Howard > > Your post to Susan and others revives an interesting thread that we > (you and I and Larry and others) have discussed at some length > before, namely, the distinction between (a) the development of > concentration in the sense of consciousness repeatedly taking the > same chosen or preferred object and (b) tranquillity development > (samatha bhavana). > > To my understanding, there is a clear and crucial difference between > the two, which tends to get overlooked. 25300 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Icaro - > > I wish everything good for you. May you learn well, be safe, and > find > time for Dhamma practice (which can be almost any time that doesn't > require > 100% devotion of attention elsewhere - like climbing over wooden walls > or > crawling on your belly under obstacles with live ammunition whizzing > over your head! > ;-). ..... I'm wondering why you would see 'Dhamma practice' as any limitation in the latter scenarios and why it can be at 'almost any time', rather than 'at any time'??? Metta, Sarah ====== 25301 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > When you write (as you have before) about the difference between > concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being > an > akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show > the difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the > Dhammasangani > §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as > wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist > Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. You're right, Jim, I have always thought of samatha as a purely kusala dhamma (perhaps because it tends to cme up in the context of samatha bhavana). Thanks for the reference, which I look forward to checking out. (And yes, I've written on this topic before. I'm trying to get a handle on it ;-).) > Also, on another point you make, > I wonder if it's possible that jhaanic states could ever be > classified > as akusala since they are not classified as such in this category > in Dhs. However, I can see how they could serve as conditions for > future unwholesome states. Well, I have no recollection as to whether or not I've seen them included in any classification of akusala states. I'll keep my eyes open for this in future. Thanks for your comments. Jon 25302 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Ken H & Larry, Good to see you back Ken H from wherever you went....(thx to Andrew for letting us know). > Ken: "The notion of just one conscious moment at a > time is very elementary Theravada Buddhism, though." > > L:> I agree but I would like to see more explanation from the texts on this. --------------- [...] K>:If, in this present moment, there could be more than one world -- for example, if there could be both hearing and seeing -- then consciousness would be seeing-hearing consciousness and the object of consciousness would be visible-audible object. But that's not how it is; 'In the seen there is only the seen, in the heard there is only the heard.' That is what we are told in the suttas and it is easily verified by our own direct experience. ..... I’m not sure if this reference will satisfy Larry , but as I recently quoted it, it’s handy;-) (the Udana, Enlightenment Ch, 10 with Bahiya, Masefield trans): The Buddha addressed Bahiya:“ Therefore, Bahiya, you should train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, that with respect to the heard....” The commentary adds: “ ‘With respect to the seen there will be merely the seen(di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m;with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-consciousness.” ***** I have quite a few posts addressed to me waiting for answers so you’ll need to find any further references or answers on your own ;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I think there are some past posts and quotes on the speed of cittas may be relevant. ====== 25303 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminous mind Hi Andrew, Thanks for raising this very controversial issue;-) --- Andrew wrote: > At the Cooran weekend, we briefly discussed the idea of the mind > being luminous (I think it was in relation to Reg's article?). In the > Brahmanimantanika Sutta, the following verse appears: > "Consciousness non-manifesting, > Boundless, luminous all-round". > Bhikkhu Bodhi notes (513): "... if we take pabham as 'luminous', > which seems better justified, the verse links up with the idea of the > mind as intrinsically luminous (pabhassaram idam cittam, AN i.10) and > also suggests the light of wisdom (pannapabha), called the best of > lights (AN ii.139). I understand this consciousness to be, not > Nibbana itself, but the arahant's consciousness during the meditative > experience of Nibbana ... this meditative experience does not > manifest any conditioned phenomena of the world, and thus may be > truly described as 'non-manifesting'." .... I'd be grateful if you'd look over these past posts in which I've discussed these same lines and quote others like Suan, Jim & RobK who have as well, I think. Some of us prefer to stick to the commentary explanations;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3602.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m4190.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11396.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12876.html If you go to UP and down to 'Luminous' you'll also find a lot of very detailed discussion on 'luminous', plus Nina and Jim's translation of the commentary to ANi 10, plus some correspondence with B.Bodhi on this topic. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I think Reg would find some of these posts very interesting if you could print them out for him. It would be good to hear his and your further comments, qus or clarifications;-) I sincerely hope he's able to join the discussions directly one day. Meanwhile we'll consider him as a 'honorary' member, especially as we have his pic in the album already;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Perhaps anytime you wander off from the list, you can ask KenH or Chris to give you a nudge if you've missed any replies. Better still, perhaps, you could try going to escribe on return and keying in your name in the search(be glad it's not Robert) and posts mentioning you will appear in most recent order;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ ================================================ --- Andrew wrote: > Dear all > At the Cooran weekend, we briefly discussed the idea of the mind > being luminous (I think it was in relation to Reg's article?). In the > Brahmanimantanika Sutta, the following verse appears: > "Consciousness non-manifesting, > Boundless, luminous all-round". > Bhikkhu Bodhi notes (513): "... if we take pabham as 'luminous', > which seems better justified, the verse links up with the idea of the > mind as intrinsically luminous (pabhassaram idam cittam, AN i.10) and > also suggests the light of wisdom (pannapabha), called the best of > lights (AN ii.139). I understand this consciousness to be, not > Nibbana itself, but the arahant's consciousness during the meditative > experience of Nibbana ... this meditative experience does not > manifest any conditioned phenomena of the world, and thus may be > truly described as 'non-manifesting'." > Metta > Andrew 25304 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/14/03 3:30:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > It's kind of you to say so, Howard. I, too, find it pleasantly > surprising that we should be so close on these important issues. > > Let's hope it lasts ;-)) > ======================= Me, too - but I guess that's a vain hope, especially for Buddhists! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25305 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 3:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/14/03 3:46:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Your post to Susan and others revives an interesting thread that we > (you and I and Larry and others) have discussed at some length > before, namely, the distinction between (a) the development of > concentration in the sense of consciousness repeatedly taking the > same chosen or preferred object and (b) tranquillity development > (samatha bhavana). > > To my understanding, there is a clear and crucial difference between > the two, which tends to get overlooked. > > First, the mental factor of concentration has no particular moral > (kusala or akusala) quality or flavour to it. That is to say, the > activity of 'concentrating on a single object' takes its moral > quality from other accompanying factors. If the concentrated mind is > to be kusala, it must be so by virtue of other exclusively kusala > mental factors. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suspect that concentrating on various objects that are common-sensically either kusala or neutral (such as various sounds) leads to calm, ease, and the absence of opposing features. Concentrating intently on lustful thoughts or vengeful thoughts or intentions etc, however, while generating energy, are unlikely to engender calm. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Tranquillity development/samatha bhavana, on the other hand, refers > to mind-states that are accompanied by exclusively kusala mental > factors such as passaddhi (tranquility) and panna (understanding), in > this instance the panna that sees the danger in attachment to sense > objects and that knows by their respective characteristics the > difference between kusala and akusala mind-states. > > Secondly, it is not a necessary aspect of samatha bhavana that there > be any particular degree of concentration in the sense of repeated > and continuous taking of the same object by consciousness. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I've never read or heard taught any instructions on samatha bhavana that did not emphasize guarding the senses, sila bhavana, *and* concentration practice of some sort. The samatha-bhavana *meditation* that I engage in is of two sorts. The primary cultivation uses mindfulness of the breath, which is one of "the forty" and which is a focusing on a repeated conventional object (though, as the concentration and mindfulness grow, one does begin to penetrate closer to the paramattha level - at a certain point, there is a bit of a choice at a relatively early stage, a fork in the road as it were, where going to the left leads towards more focussed concentration and the jhanas, and going towards towards the right leads to more precise mindfulness and non-absorption). The other, secondary, approach I use is mindfulness of sensations in the body - the "Goenka technique", which is actually a combined samatha-vipasanna cultivation technique, as I see it. BTW, the concentrating on a repeating conventional object such as the breath or a mantra has a lulling effect, which is an obvious source of the calming. If the object of concentration were a harmful one, however, such as the repeated shrieking of "kill" (as at some rock concerts or in terrorist training camps), it would certainly not lead to calm! ---------------------------------------------------- > > To my understanding, even concentration that is associated with > akusala mind-states can be developed to high levels, including to > jhana if I'm not mistaken. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I would doubt that, Jon. Perhaps an *initial* concentrating with akusala mindstates could evolve into something else, due to prevailing conditions. In any case, once a jhana or even access concentration is attained, it would seem that akusala states are impossible. Look, for example at the following quoted material taken from ATI: ************************ > [First jhana] > "There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture > and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and > evaluation. *************************** Note how it says "withdrawn from unskillful qualities." ----------------------------------------------------------- Accordingly, it should not be assumed> > that signs of progress in the development of concentration (e.g., the > appearance of an after-image) are necessarily indicative of the > development of the kusala that is samatha bhavana. > > To take the instance of a mantra such as that you mention, I'm sure > it would help in developing concentration, but it's not clear to me > why there would be (or, indeed, how there could be) any kusala > involved in that activity. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Once a jhana is attained, Jon, the states are quite kusala. --------------------------------------------------- > > I'm sure you have some thoughts on this matter. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25306 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/14/03 8:42:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Icaro - > > > > I wish everything good for you. May you learn well, be safe, and > >find > >time for Dhamma practice (which can be almost any time that doesn't > >require > >100% devotion of attention elsewhere - like climbing over wooden walls > >or > >crawling on your belly under obstacles with live ammunition whizzing > >over your head! > >;-). > ..... > I'm wondering why you would see 'Dhamma practice' as any limitation in the > latter scenarios and why it can be at 'almost any time', rather than 'at > any time'??? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================= My hat is off to you Sarah, if you would be able to be engaging in *any* form of "Dhamma practice" under the circumstances I suggested, unless, of course, you believe that all soldiers and everyone else is always engaged in "Dhamma practice," but that does water down the term, it seems to me. Just to be a bit more to the point: When scurrying on the ground with live ammo passing overhead, it is *not* the time to contemplate the Dhamma nor is it the time to note impermanence or impersonality, nor is it the time to carefully note the distinction between nama and rupa; it is the time to keep 100% attention on staying low to the ground, moving forward quickly, and avoiding the dangerous conventional objects coming in your direction, the same as for every other soldier. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25307 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Ich auch, Ic! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! > That goes for me too, Ic. All the best. > Jon > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > Icaro! > > > > It's a slow old day here! there aren't many of us around to > > farewell > > you. > > > > If it's not too late, on behalf of all at dsg; Have a safe boot > > camp > > and we look forward to hearing from you as soon as it suits you. > > > > > > Ken H > 25308 From: Larry Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Ken: "But the fact there is only this present moment doesn't need any explanation, does it?" Hi Ken, I think the question is is there any dhamma outside the present experience? I would say abhidhamma says yes because it describes pre- experience dhammas such as rupa before it touches the sense base, the sense base itself, and the bhavanga stream, not to mention other people. One could even argue that individual citta processes are not experienced. To say that seeing color does not happen when hearing sound is possibly true but it doesn't say why or rule out other realities. Instead of saying "there is only the present moment" I would say "the present moment is only the present moment OF EXPERIENCE". That's all there is to the present moment of experience but not all there is. It can't be right that sense base is only one rupa. Nothing is one rupa. Also, I think there has to be two kinds of rupa: the physical rupa and the rupa sensation. Otherwise sense base makes no sense. Larry 25309 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Larry (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/14/03 2:08:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Ken: "But the fact there is only this present moment doesn't need any > explanation, does it?" > > Hi Ken, > > I think the question is is there any dhamma outside the present > experience? I would say abhidhamma says yes because it describes pre- > experience dhammas such as rupa before it touches the sense base, the > sense base itself, and the bhavanga stream, not to mention other > people. One could even argue that individual citta processes are not > experienced. To say that seeing color does not happen when hearing > sound is possibly true but it doesn't say why or rule out other > realities. Instead of saying "there is only the present moment" I > would say "the present moment is only the present moment OF > EXPERIENCE". That's all there is to the present moment of experience > but not all there is. > > It can't be right that sense base is only one rupa. Nothing is one > rupa. Also, I think there has to be two kinds of rupa: the physical > rupa and the rupa sensation. Otherwise sense base makes no sense. > > Larry > ========================= I agree with you in some respects, and disagree in another. As to agreement, whether one considers events other than the currently experienced aramanna to be unexperienced actualities (your objectivist position) or to be potentialities for experience (my conditionalist-phenomenalist perspective), I think that it is clear that such other dhammas are countenanced not only by common sense, but also, quite explicitly - in terms of kalapas - by Abhidhamma/Commentary. As to disagreement, I do not think "there HAS to be [Howard's emphasis] two kinds of rupa: the physical rupa and the rupa sensation." I think that the hardness that is sensed and cognized needn't be anything other than the experienced hardness per se (the "rupa sensation" as you put it) - a phenomenon, not a neumenon; I see no need to presume some unexperienced underlying "external" hardness. As in the Bahiya Sutta, in the sensed, let there be only the sensed: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25310 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Dear Larry, Very difficult to answer all your questions. Even a few lines of Tiika take so long. I have to jump, it is very long and I cannot translate it all. op 13-09-2003 00:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: 1. What does "adverting to the path" mean? Is it self consciousness? N: First we should note this: sense-door and mind-door adverting-consciousness (aavajjana-citta) are the first cittas of these processes, they advert for the first time to the object. adverting (aavajjana) to the path: the citta preceding the Path-consciousness arising in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. Change-of lineage is not lokuttara citta, although it has nibbaana as object, it just adverts to the Path and it is immediately succeeded by the lokuttara citta which is path-consciousness. L: 2.nibbaana be simply an absence of cetasikas or at least sa~n~naa? N: nibbaana is the object of lokuttara citta, it has nothing to do with citta or cetasika. And sanna accompanying lokuttara citta is also lokuttara, sanna arises with each citta. It does not help to speculate about its function when it is lokuttara, since we can only think about it, we have not attained to that stage. L,3. The reason for my bewilderment is that I don't see how direct > understanding fits into the three kinds of understanding: reason, > hearing, development. Are the higher levels of insight considered to be > attainments and therefore classified under "development" or are they all > reasoning based on hearing and observation? N: Attainment under development: Tiika comes back to that later on. I understand your disinclination to Pali, but, English terms like reasoning create confusion. The Dhammasangani, p. 15, footnote, the translator thinks it best to reject such terms for panna as reason, intellect and understanding... Jim mentioned this para of Dhsg, with reference to kosalla, skill. We shall come to kosalla later on, it implies the four right efforts which can only be fulfilled by panna of vipassana. He also gives the Tiika term pa.n.dicca, think of pandita: wise person. I quote the para of dsg so that you can see that there are many words for panna. And we should remember that all these classifications of the Vis. as one, as twofold, threefold etc. are just about panna. Nothing else but panna. We read, para 16: Only when we begin to develop understanding or wisdom, by being aware of nama and rupa appearing at this moment, we shall come to understand all these terms. These terms are not theory. What we read in the Visuddhimagga and Tiika is not just theory. Nina. 25311 From: Larry Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: >_(the Udana, Enlightenment Ch, 10 with Bahiya, Masefield trans): The Buddha addressed Bahiya:" Therefore, Bahiya, you should train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, that with respect to the heard.... Hi Sarah & Ken, We could also say with respect to the seen there will be all the universal cetasikas. It just depends on what you mean by "be". Larry 25312 From: Larry Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 1:11pm Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, My view is that jhana is clearly Right Concentration. I don't know what the official definition of "right" is but I would think it includes all the path factors. So even though none of the jhana factors are exclusively wholesome all of the path factors are assumed as 'context'. Additionally, I don't see why a mantra couldn't be an object of right concentration as long as it was elemental or wholesome. What's the difference between a sound and a color (colour). On another tack, I would say all 40 objects of jhana are mantra insofar as they are repititious vitakka and vicara. However, traditionally, mantra is sanskrit only and not necessarily used to develop one pointed concentration, nor is it necessarily wholesome. Larry 25313 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:52pm Subject: Re: Re Chittapala and simply living. Hi Azita and Christine, All this talk about dogs has been playing on my mind. I keep wondering how my accumulations would manifest if they were born in the animal world. A little easier to imagine is what I would be like as an intellectually disabled human. On the Sunday program yesterday, the cover story was the ''bodies in the barrels' serial killings' -- featuring an interview with the wife of a man who had murdered eleven people by torture. They were all disadvantaged people living on the edge of society. He had been a slaughterman at an abattoir. He loved his work and he especially loved it when the animals died in pain. 'Sheep deserved it because they were stupid; pigs deserved it because they were smelly' and so on. The interviewer asked the wife why hadn't she gone to the police after the first murder; "Because he would have killed me." Did she still love him?' "Yes." Could she forgive him? -- "I don't know if I can forgive him for killing Troy because Troy was my best friend." Everyone involved -- victims and villains -- were unfortunate, simple-minded people searching for stories - - grasping at straws -- to justify the ignorance, selfishness and fear in their lives. Or, more to the point, continually trying to build a secure, external world for their pathetic, all-important egos. We do the same thing except our stories are more sophisticated -- less transparent. How can we tell what stories we would come up with -- how we would explain reality -- if we had less brain-power than we have this time around? Even in this current lifetime, we experience different worlds (in a manner of speaking). Sometimes it's a beautiful world in which we are blessed with a healthy, clear-thinking brain; and then there are those 'bad brain' days when we just have to make the most of a rough deal. How fortunate we are to know that, ultimately, every moment is a new birth into a completely new world. The stories have no influence here, there are just namas and rupas, wholesome or unwholesome, with no control either way. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Azita, > > Azita said: "on the trip from Brisbane to Cooran, I made a > flippant statement about dogs having more Moha than humans and was > almost set upon by the other two in the car [not mentioning names], 25314 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Nina, Thanks for all your comments. I'm still not sure about this one: N: "Change-of lineage is not lokuttara citta, although it has nibbaana as object, it just adverts to the Path and it is immediately succeeded by the lokuttara citta which is path-consciousness." L: Maybe we can revisit this when we get to it in Vism. If we are going too fast, let me know and I will stop for a while. Larry 25315 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:55pm Subject: Re: question Hi Frank, This is a most excellent point that has to be made clear to anyone who joins dsg or reads books like ADL. Nor does it stop there; when listening to taped conversations with K Sujin, I hear people getting confused over the same contradictoriness. Furthermore, it was an issue for people who listened to the Buddha himself. He had to explain, 'when you hear me saying you can/should do this or that, always remember the simile of the chariot -- ultimately there are only these present five khandhas.' There really is no way around it; there can be no effective communication without the risk of 'self' being insinuated into the meaning. Getting back to the question in point: ------------- > p. 17: "Vedanakhandha (feeling) is real; we can > experience feelings." > > If a cetasika experiences an object (cf. p. 13), then > who is the "we" doing the experiencing on p. 17? -------------- My humble understanding of what you were reading on p.17 is that we do have an understanding of what is meant by vedana-khandha; Without having to artificially direct mindfulness to a specific feeling, we already know what is being referred to. To that extent, we have verified the reality of vedanakhandha by our own direct experiences of feelings. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" wrote: > > > I recently started reading "Abhidhamma in Daily life" (1997 > edition). > At the beginning a distinction is made between citta and cetasika. > One fundamental aspect of this distinction puzzles me: > > p. 13: "Citta and cetasika are namas which experience an object > […]" > > The way I understand this – and correct me if I'm wrong – > is that > cetasikas "colour" or "help" the citta to > construct/experience an > object. But then there's this: > 25316 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Howard, I don't understand. What does the sense base do if there is no external rupa? Also, it seems like we are getting into 3 kinds of rupa: external rupa (materiality), rupa sensation that interrupts the bhavanga and is the object of several consciousnesses, and the consciousness of rupa (experience or element of experience, as it takes an uncounted number of consciousnesses to make an experience). Considering this line, "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that." I interpret this in citta process terms as meaning when you cognize the seen with the root citta amoha (understanding/wisdom) there will be no lobha, dosa, or moha root cittas, these three being the default "me". Further, the word "only" suggests there isn't much conceptual content in this understanding. I don't see it as defining what does or doesn't exist. Larry Howard: "As to disagreement, I do not think "there HAS to be [Howard's emphasis] two kinds of rupa: the physical rupa and the rupa sensation." I think that the hardness that is sensed and cognized needn't be anything other than the experienced hardness per se (the "rupa sensation" as you put it) - a phenomenon, not a neumenon; I see no need to presume some unexperienced underlying "external" hardness. As in the Bahiya Sutta, in the sensed, let there be only the sensed: 25317 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa (nina) Hi Nori, op 14-09-2003 00:53 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > There is no question that the visudhimaga and the abhidamma are > valuable books. > > Do you feel they are indispensible in clarifying matters or do you > think it is possible to recieve a full understanding with only the > nikayas? N: We have a great deal of ignorance, and thus we need many details. The whole of the teachings point to satipatthana: the development of understanding of nama and rupa in order to eradicate wrong view of self and all defilements. The object of understanding are nama and rupa appearing at this moment. It is best when people discover for themselves how much study they need, whether the Abhidhamma helps them, whether the commentaries and the Visuddhimagga helps them. As you could read in Sarah's post: What is expounded in the suttas? aggregates, bases and elements which are non-self. But since we are living in this time, further away from the Buddha's time, we need all the help we can possibly get from the whole of the tipitaka and commentaries, as Jon also explained. Nina. 25318 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] citta and cetasika Hi Frank, op 14-09-2003 13:16 schreef Frank op frankmatton@y...: > I recently started reading "Abhidhamma in Daily life" (1997 > edition). > At the beginning a distinction is made between citta and cetasika. > One fundamental aspect of this distinction puzzles me: > > p. 13: "Citta and cetasika are namas which experience an object > […]" > > The way I understand this – and correct me if I'm wrong – > is that > cetasikas "colour" or "help" the citta to > construct/experience an > object. N: Cetasikas asist the citta, but citta and cetasikas experience the same object. They are nama, reality that experiences. Cetasikas, while they experience that object, each perform their own function. F: p. 9: "vedana, is a cetasika which arises with every citta." > p. 17: "Vedanakhandha (feeling) is real; we can experience > feelings." > > If a cetasika experiences an object (cf. p. 13), then who is the > "we" > doing the experiencing on p. 17? >N: Citta can experience feeling I use the conventional word we here, showing that we all can know what feeling is. I do not speak all the time by way of paramattha dhammas, but also use conventional language. I hope this clarifies, appreciating your interest, Nina. 25319 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/14/03 10:02:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I don't understand. What does the sense base do if there is no external > rupa? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The sense base is not a permanent thing. It arises as does the rupa sensation. They co-occur and are interdependent. Conditioned by that sensing event is its completion, the sensory discernment (vi~n~nana), and the coming together of all three is contact. --------------------------------------------------- Also, it seems like we are getting into 3 kinds of rupa: external> > rupa (materiality), rupa sensation that interrupts the bhavanga and is > the object of several consciousnesses, and the consciousness of rupa > (experience or element of experience, as it takes an uncounted number of > consciousnesses to make an experience). ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I see no necessity for the 1st of these, the external rupa. Moreover, it is in principle unknowable, and thus pragmatically ignorable. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Considering this line, > > "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only > the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the > sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, > there is no you in terms of that." > > I interpret this in citta process terms as meaning when you cognize the > seen with the root citta amoha (understanding/wisdom) there will be no > lobha, dosa, or moha root cittas, these three being the default "me". > Further, the word "only" suggests there isn't much conceptual content in > this understanding. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I interpret this differently. When there is no object-in-itself, there is also no subject-in-itself. (The converse is true as well, a fact often ignored by Mahayanists when they say that Theravadins only accept the emptiness of the "person" but not of "things".) ------------------------------------------------- > > I don't see it as defining what does or doesn't exist. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It doesn't assert the nonexistence of underlying neumena - but it does say to train oneself to experience only phenomena: to see only the seen, hear only the heard, sense only the sensed, and cognize only the cognized. The Buddha's teaching was quite pragmatic. -------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > Howard: "As to disagreement, I do not think "there HAS to be [Howard's > emphasis] two kinds of rupa: the physical rupa and the rupa sensation." > I think that the hardness that is sensed and cognized needn't be > anything other than the experienced hardness per se (the "rupa > sensation" as you put it) - a phenomenon, not a neumenon; I see no need > to presume some unexperienced underlying "external" hardness. As in the > Bahiya Sutta, in the sensed, let there be only the sensed: > > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25320 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Howard: "The sense base is not a permanent thing. It arises as does the rupa sensation. They co-occur and are interdependent. Conditioned by that sensing event is its completion, the sensory discernment (vi~n~nana), and the coming together of all three is contact." Hi Howard, I didn't say the sense base is permanent. I was understanding it as a sense organ. Ken has this same idea also that the sense base only arises with the rupa sensation. Maybe I'm wrong. Can anyone tell us if this is what abhidhamma really says??? The question remains though, what does the sense base do? Howard: "I see no necessity for the 1st of these, the external rupa. Moreover, it is in principle unknowable, and thus pragmatically ignorable." L: Kamma is in principle unknowable (unexperiencable). Should we ignore it? Howard: "I interpret this [Bahiya Sutta] differently. When there is no object-in-itself, there is also no subject-in-itself. (The converse is true as well, a fact often ignored by Mahayanists when they say that Theravadins only accept the emptiness of the "person" but not of "things".) L: Where does it say there is no object or subject? Consciousness can be a subject without being mistaken for a self. Larry "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that." 25321 From: Andrew Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminous mind --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Thanks for raising this very controversial issue;-) > I'd be grateful if you'd look over these past posts in which I've > discussed these same lines and quote others like Suan, Jim & RobK who have > as well, I think. Thank you for the references, Sarah. I have perused them and have to admit that this controversy is a bit over my head at this stage. Still, it's always useful to be reminded of the depth of meaning involved in Dhamma issues and the need to have a firm grasp of the basics. > I think Reg would find some of these posts very interesting if you could > print them out for him. It would be good to hear his and your further > comments, qus or clarifications;-) I sincerely hope he's able to join the > discussions directly one day. Meanwhile we'll consider him as a 'honorary' > member, especially as we have his pic in the album already;-) > Reg says he is going to get a home computer and internet access but we who know him estimate that this could still be years off. He lived in his house for about 10 years before getting electricity connected (it was available the whole time). Before having his house built, he lived in a 2-man tent on site for about 10 years (he had the money to build the whole time). Starting to get the picture??? Reg is such a wonderful friend of mine because he questions everything I take as a "given". When I pull out weeds in my garden, he will stand there and ask "Why are you doing that?" Then I start to think "Well, why AM I doing this?" > p.s Perhaps anytime you wander off from the list, you can ask KenH or > Chris to give you a nudge if you've missed any replies. Better still, > perhaps, you could try going to escribe on return and keying in your name > in the search(be glad it's not Robert) and posts mentioning you will > appear in most recent order;-) > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ > ================================================ > Thanks for these tips. I'll endeavour to pick up my game but may not get to post much in the coming weeks due to other commitments. Also, I'm not sure that KenH or Christine will apply for the job of babysitting me?? Metta Andrew 25322 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Nori (& Howard), --- norakat147 wrote: > Where I get confused is where do I draw the line of how much to > tolerate before I take action? > > At what point does one have aversion to something and make action to > avoid it? ..... No rules and it depends on conditions;-) What I mean is, that how we may react in any given situation will depend on many factors. Of course the reactions of an arahant will be quite different, but the aim is not to set a rule to copy the life of an arahant, but to understand the accumulated tendencies and the other presently arising namas and rupas. No self that has aversion or takes action either;-) .... > I think its just natural that: "S: we (are) intent upon the pleasant > forms... mental phenomena and so on and repelled by the displeasing > ones? " > > If I were in a burning house, I would leave because I wouldn't want > to tolerate the suffering; repelled by what is 'displeasing'. ..... ....and to stay in the burning house with an idea of tolerating the ‘displeasing’ would be wrong practice and certainly unnatural. ..... > In analogy to this example, one can reply, (not being > sarcastic) "well try and understand why you are suffering at this > moment in this burning building, its because you are intent upon the > pleasant... repelled by the displeasing..." ..... Even whilst fleeing, there can be awareness. This would be one’s daily life at the time, just like escaping bullets may be daily life for the soldier as I see it, Howard. In the satipatthana sutta and commentary we were reading about sati at all times - including whilst getting dressed and going to the toilet. To exclude particular times or occasions or to think that satipatthana would interfere in someway, underestimates the power of sati imho and may be a condition for it not to arise. Anytime, anyplace. Even whilst being attacked by a tiger;-) The development of satipatthana doesn’t mean one is less likely to flee the burning house, passing bullets or ferocious tigers. Understanding isn’t a matter of thinking or paying particular attention, possibly with an idea of self, or labelling certain states and focussing on them. .... > Are we not supposed to be repelled by the displeasing ? .... It’s natural. That doesn’t mean that being repelled is not unwholesome. Not self that is repelled. .... > This is my most confused (and seemingly hypocritical/paradoxical) > issue I have regarding buddhist philosophy: > > Buddhism instructs those to not have desire or aversion and yet > simultaneously, desire and aversion is what guides one's actions > (i.e. desire for happiness; aversion to suffering). ..... Buddhism instructs us to understand the truths. So better to develop understanding of different phenomena than to think there shouldn’t be this or that. Otherwise, we’re just accumulating more attachment. ..... > Buddha defines association with the beloved as dukkha, among other > things that are dukkha. (The dukkha in this case comes from aversion). > > Likewise one will have aversion to say, people stabbing him with a > knife, a burning building, etc. ..... Yes, but it’s not the aversion which will understand the truth of dukkha. .... > (and just asking as a general question regarding the buddhist path > and interpreting "aversion" and "desire" when reading scripture...) > > What do they define those terms to be? ; since, as in my example > above, it is impossible not to have them (those feelings). ... Right - impossible not to have them. ..... > > How does one not have aversion or desire ?; How is this possible ? .... Wishful thinking;-) It’s quite useless to think like this about not having aversion or desire. That doesn’t mean that it’s not extremely helpful to understand these and all other realities when they arise at this moment. Wishing for something different is just an indication of more attachment to self. ... > Will appreciate any thoughts you (or anyone) have regarding this. > PS Thanks for all your replies and thoughts. ..... Oh, a pleasure, Nori. Like Jon, I’m appreciating your questions and keen contributions. With regard to the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma, I’d just say, find out for yourself what is useful and what helps clear away the cobwebs. We see here on DSG that even though we’re all reading Theravada texts and sources, we have different interests and inclinations and these change over time as well. Sometimes I put aside a particular text for years with no interest at all. It’s the wise considering, questioning and understanding about present phenomena that counts, not the booklist, imo. With metta, Sarah ======= 25323 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: Luminous mind Hello Andrew (and Sarah), :-) I absolutely and categorically refuse to baby-sit Andrew - he has inveigled his way into Smokey Joe's affections (using the bribe of the evening meal) and to offend him [SJ] would be to get Rusty off- side. So, there you go ... It'll have to be up to KenH. Yesterday was Sunday afternoon at Klaas's .. Reg had a great story about going for a walk and realising someone had 'stolen' lots of the mulch he had collected and piled up .. he spoke about all the flickering and changing feelings and stories that his mind concocted, watching them rise and fall; and how the emotional storm passed and he resumed his walk and heard a cat-bird calling. (Two man tent?? where did the beds fit? .. no electricity?? how did he have a hot shower and shave? ..ohhh .. I see. :-) I can tell that Reg wasn't living in the Beaudesert Shire, or the building inspectors would have been down on him like a ton of bricks. :-)) And to think I actually believed him when he said he was thinking of buying a computer ... sigh. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" , > I'm not sure that KenH or Christine will apply for the job of > babysitting me?? > Metta > Andrew 25324 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I just have to jump in here. If indeed you stated the below, how is it > possible to separate delusion from conceit? Is not delusion the > foundation for > unwholesome states? I would suggest that its impossible to have the > bare belief > "I exist" without some level of personality view being present. ...... Actually it was Toby's paraphrase, not my actual words. You'd need to see my post for what I actually said;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25213 Maybe it was this: “To be honest, I don’t see any suggestion about ‘delusion that self exists’ after self-view has been eradicated in the texts. When there is mana, there is just comparing, rather than any delusion of existing self, as I understand.” ***** I think we agree, but just to clarify further, as you say, moha (ignorance or delusion) is the ‘foundation for all unwholesome states’ and arises with all of these. “Delusion has the characteristic of blindness or opposition to knowledge...”(Atthasalini). At moments when conceit arises, there is therefore ignorance and both this ignorance and conceit are only eradicated by the arahant. However, there is no wrong view or wrong delusion about there being any self at moments of conceit at any time. Wrong view and conceit don’t arise together. Also, as wrong view and delusions about a self existing are eradicated by the sotapanna, there is no view of self after this. Toby was referring to the references to ‘asmi maana’ (‘I am’ conceit) in the sutta. I think it’s important to understand the nature of conceit which involves comparing ‘self’ with ‘others’ but without any belief of self. As you suggest, if there’s any idea of self existing, then personality view is present. Even arahants have metta for ‘others’ - obviously without any view that people actually exist. I thought it was an excellent sutta to discuss as it can easily be misunderstood. Perhaps another example of a little abhidhamma being of assistance?? Has this clarified? Appreciating all your other threads and probing of issues. Metta, Sarah ===== 25325 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Luminous mind Hi Christine (& Andrew & Nori), I just opened your post thinking you were going to shed light on the luminous thread....oh well --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Andrew (and Sarah), :-) > > I absolutely and categorically refuse to baby-sit Andrew - he has > inveigled his way into Smokey Joe's affections (using the bribe of > the evening meal) and to offend him [SJ] would be to get Rusty off- > side. So, there you go ... It'll have to be up to KenH. ... I seem to recall that after the first Cooran weekend, you had doubts about all that bloke humour and teasing...now I see you’re giving them all a real run for their mulch in this regard....;-) .... > Yesterday was Sunday afternoon at Klaas's .. Reg had a great story > about going for a walk and realising someone had 'stolen' lots of the > mulch he had collected and piled up .. he spoke about all the > flickering and changing feelings and stories that his mind concocted, > watching them rise and fall; and how the emotional storm passed and > he resumed his walk and heard a cat-bird calling. .... ....so, Nori, attachment and aversion will always find an object whilst there are conditions for them to arise. .... > (Two man tent?? where did the beds fit? .. no electricity?? how did > he have a hot shower and shave? ..ohhh .. I see. :-) ..... I can see that when he eventually joins us, he’ll be giving Jim many tips about how to simplify his lifestyle further;-). If you print out those luminous posts for your next meeting, Reg can then recycle them a few times before using for precious mulch. .... > I can tell that Reg wasn't living in the Beaudesert Shire, or the > building inspectors would have been down on him like a ton of > bricks. :-)) And to think I actually believed him when he said he > was thinking of buying a computer ... sigh. ..... How about you act as babysitter for Andrew when he’s on leave and he acts as translator for you when he’s around (Beaudesert Shire??). [Hint to new members: look in ‘Significant Others’ photo album before reading this post, then read through everything Chris has ever written, then ask for clarifications, if like me you’re still lost. Just don’t suggest dogs and cats are ignorant.....] Metta, Sarah p.s Good to know you’re having fun as well as luminous discussions;-) ===== 25326 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: >The > discussion could just go and on with no end in sight. .... ;-) I know - - (sorry to put your last line first, but it's a reminder for me to snip.) ..... > It is worth noting that "skilfulness in the (Pali) letters" is > 'akkharakosalla' in Pali. The tika gives 'pa.n.dicca' as a synonym of > 'kosalla' and both terms are given as synonyms of 'pa~n~naa' at Dhs > §16, 20, 34, etc. So, in my view, the development of 'pa~n~naa' can > begin with learning the Pali alphabet and continue to be developed > right to the end with the realization of Nibbana. Of course, the > degree and scope of 'pa~n~naa' increases as one makes progress along > the way. .... We may have to reintroduce 'Pali puzzles' as the subject heading! !!! Isn’t pa.n.dicca derived from pa.n.dita meaning skilled or clever in other contexts? Skilled in the sounds or letters? I don’t know, Jim, but in light of what we’re reading in the Vism and elsewhere, how can we talk about the development of pa~n~naa leading to Nibbana without it being the ‘penetration of characteristics’, of ‘sabhaava’ as opposed to the knowing of concepts as in the skill in Pali letters? What are the characteristics, the namas and rupas known as a result of learning the Pali alphabet. (I don’t mean any disrespect for the latter of course). ..... > 'Sv' is the usual abbr. for Samangalavilaasinii. For > 'Sammohavinodanii' use Vibh-a. ... Thank you and apologies. ..... > > "Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its > object, > > not a concept as its object." > > This is quite an interesting statement. Do you think, then, that the > 'attha' and 'dhamma' of the first two discriminations refer to > concepts ie. attha-pa~n~natti & naama-pa~n~natti, respectively? .... No, I don’t understand any of the discriminations as referring to concepts but to incredibly developed penetrative insight - fully understanding causes, results and so on. I hasten to add, I know very little on this subject. ..... I can > see how language can be perceived as sequences of sounds devoid of any > meaning or names. Often when I'm reciting Pali to myself I just like > to listen to or feel the muscular articulations of the sounds being > uttered without any attempt to understand what they might mean or > stand for. I always thought this was due to laziness on my part, but > the above statement gives me some hope that it may not all be in vain. .... I don’t understand this to be the meaning at all, though I have no doubt there can be some physilogical or other value - like at the start of my yoga classes when I join in a chant. I’ve no idea what it’s about, but Dr Ma says it’s good for my voice and throat;-) Sometimes too, I read out Pali phrases just for practice. With regard to the discrimination, I understood when I read it that as soon as the sound is heard, the full meaning is comprehended. For example the sounds of ‘attha’ or ‘dhamma’ or ‘hetu’ are heard and without any analysis (or concepts as object) the full and deep meaning is thoroughly known. As I suggested before, this is how a disciple such as Sariputta could hear a few lines of Abhidhamma and thoroughly understand the complexity of detail and how of course, the Buddha, with the greatest knowledge of all could thoroughly understand anything as soon as he was enlightened with his omniscience. It’s difficult to relate it at all to our very limited undestanding at all. But, for example, if I say ‘nama’ or ‘rupa’ to someone who has not heard anything about the Dhamma, it means nothing. If I say it to you or John, without anymore detail, there is a lot of understood meaning. If I said it to someone with greater insight, it would mean a lot more still. So I think to an arahant with patisambhida (discriminations), the full depth of the teachings would be penetrated on hearing these brief sounds. Jim, this is just speculation as I try to make sense to myself;-) Interpreting squiggles from the Pali, I think we have: “...niruttipatisambhida saddarammana nama jata, na paññatti-arammana.” (...Discrimination of Language comes to have sounds as object, not concepts) ..... > I don't understand it either. The Magadha tongue is also foremost in > the realms of hell-beings, animals, hungry ghosts, and deities > according to Dispeller §1949. Does this mean that animals can > understand Pali? Perhaps this is so when a Buddha or Arahant is > speaking to them. .... Could it mean foremost in terms of being the no 1. language (rather than most common) as we read in the next para about how other languages change but “only this Magadha tongue correctly called the perfect (brahma) usage, the noble usage, does not change.”??? And it then goes on to talk about why the Buddha used this language relating to the above: “...attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is merely impinged upo, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand ways.” .... > > Regarding the Vimuttimagga, I was curious to find out what it had to > say on the proximate or near cause of wisdom. There is no mention of > concentration being the proximate cause but instead (on p. 230) it > mentions 'the four truths' (as with Dhammapaala who also recognizes > concentration) and 'the four kinds of analytical science'. Doesn't the > latter sound an awful lot like the four pa.tisambhidas? .... I’ll pass on this, but will raise your qu on CMA proximate cause as discussed w/ B.Bodhi if I can. ..... > Conventionally speaking, I think of 'studying' as the development of > wisdom in the same way as I think of 'meditating' as the development > of concentration or tranquility. .... Thx for clarifying. I tried my best to keep it short Jim and reluctantly snipped a couple of sub-threads like the Mulapariyaya sutta. It could easily have been twice as long;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I hope you've been reading about the solitary lifestyles of Reg and Chittapala Down Under;-) ===== 25327 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:46am Subject: Re: Re Chittapala and simply living. Dear KenH, It has been on my mind too, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Azita and Christine, > > All this talk about dogs has been playing on my mind. I > keep wondering how my accumulations would manifest if > they were born in the animal world. ], Just today, while lying on the beach enjoying the last rays of sun, after a very hot day, I was reading 'The Wings to Awakening' by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. On p53, this wonderful passage: 'These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas; The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana; The results of Kamma; Speculation about the first moment, purpose, of the cosmos, is an imponderable not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these four things would go mad and experience vexation.' It was the 3rd one about Kamma, that decided I should persue this matter no further as I would possibly go mad. I'll accept that there are good humans, bad humans, good animals, bad animals. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 25328 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/15/03 12:43:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "The sense base is not a permanent thing. It arises as does the > rupa sensation. They co-occur and are interdependent. Conditioned by > that sensing event is its completion, the sensory discernment > (vi~n~nana), and the coming together of all three is contact." > > Hi Howard, > > I didn't say the sense base is permanent. I was understanding it as a > sense organ. Ken has this same idea also that the sense base only arises > with the rupa sensation. Maybe I'm wrong. Can anyone tell us if this is > what abhidhamma really says??? > > The question remains though, what does the sense base do? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Seeing, as I understand it, is an event that involves sensing, sensed, and cognizing - visual content, visual sensing, and followed upon by visual awareness. There is no visual content without visual sensing, and no visual sensing without visual contact, and this pair doesn't occur without the arising of visual awareness, nor does visual awareness arise without the prior arising of this pair. But as to what the sense base does, what does *anything* do? What, for example, does cetana do? It (like anything else) arises due to conditions, and then, in turn serves as a condition. Since it is completely determined by the conditions that lead to its arising, why isn't it, then, completely superfluous, with just the conditions for it being sufficient, and skipping the "middle man" of cetana. In fact, since everything arises according to conditions, everything is superfluous and could be "skipped"! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > > Howard: "I see no necessity for the 1st of these, the external rupa. > Moreover, it is in principle unknowable, and thus pragmatically > ignorable." > > L: Kamma is in principle unknowable (unexperiencable). Should we ignore > it? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Kamma - that is, volition or volitional action - is quite knowable! But the complex web of kammic inheritance is rarely known except superficially. --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: "I interpret this [Bahiya Sutta] differently. When there is no > object-in-itself, there is also no subject-in-itself. (The converse is > true as well, a fact often ignored by Mahayanists when they say that > Theravadins only accept the emptiness of the "person" but not of > "things".) > > L: Where does it say there is no object or subject? Consciousness can be > a subject without being mistaken for a self. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I never said there is no object or subject. I chose my words carefully. ------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only > the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the > sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, > there is no you in terms of that." > > ======================= With metta, Howard P.S. It's good that we clarify our perspectives on this, Larry. But there also is no necessity that we persuade the other (or even ourself) of the correctness of our position. I think it's okay to disagree, and very much okay to be unsure. :-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25329 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/15/03 4:06:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Even whilst fleeing, there can be awareness. This would be one’s daily > life at the time, just like escaping bullets may be daily life for the > soldier as I see it, Howard. In the satipatthana sutta and commentary we > were reading about sati at all times - including whilst getting dressed > and going to the toilet. To exclude particular times or occasions or to > think that satipatthana would interfere in someway, underestimates the > power of sati imho and may be a condition for it not to arise. Anytime, > anyplace. Even whilst being attacked by a tiger;-) The development of > satipatthana doesn’t mean one is less likely to flee the burning house, > passing bullets or ferocious tigers. Understanding isn’t a matter of > thinking or paying particular attention, possibly with an idea of self, or > labelling certain states and focussing on them. > .... > ======================== My point pertained to the applying of attention, to how it is applied and to what. Of course mindfulness and insight can arise at *any* time. But the conscious directing of attention is another matter. Dhamma *practice* involv es conscious application and direction of the various faculties. I was talking of Dhamma *practice*, and not the fruits of Dhamma practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25330 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: FW: Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 12 B Commentary to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 12 B Relevant sutta passage: ***** Commentary: addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputtoti bhagavati gate pacchaa gacchanto addasa. As to the words, the venerable Saariputta saw him, the meaning is that after the Blessed One had gone, the venerable Saariputta who came afterwards saw him. etassa kiraayasmato ekakassa viharato a~n~na.m vatta.m, bhagavataa saddhi.m viharato a~n~na.m. It is said that when the Venerable One was dwelling alone, his task was different from when he was together with the Blessed One yadaa hi dve aggasaavakaa ekaakino vasanti, When the two chief disciples stayed by themselves, tadaa paatova senaasana.m sammajjitvaa sariirapa.tijaggana.m katvaa they would in the early morning sweep their dwelling, tend to their bodily needs, samaapatti.m appetvaa sannisinnaa attano cittaruciyaa bhikkhaacaara.m gacchanti. sit in quiet while applying themselves to attainment concentration, and then they would, as they were inclined to, go on their alms round. bhagavataa saddhi.m viharantaa pana theraa eva.m na karonti. However, when they were together with the Blessed One they would not act in that way. tadaa hi bhagavaa bhikkhusa"nghaparivaaro pa.thama.m bhikkhaacaara.m gacchati. Then the Blessed One, surrounded by the monks, would go on almsround first. tasmi.m gate thero attano senaasanaa nikkhamitvaa -- When the Buddha had gone, the venerable Sariputta would leave his lodging and consider: ``bahuuna.m vasana.t.thaane naama sabbeva paasaadika.m kaatu.m sakkonti vaa, na vaa sakkontii''ti ³When there are many monks in a dwelling place, not all of them may be able to make it agreeable.² tattha tattha gantvaa asamma.t.tha.m .thaana.m sammajjati. He would go around and sweep the places that had not been swept. sace kacavaro acha.d.dito hoti, ta.m cha.d.deti. When there was rubbish that was not thrown away, he threw it away. paaniiya.t.thapetabba.t.thaanamhi paaniiyakuu.te asati paaniiyagha.ta.m .thapeti. When there was no drinking water in the place where it should be set out, he placed a pot with drinking water. gilaanaana.m santika.m gantvaa, He went to visit the sick and asked: ``aavuso, tumhaaka.m ki.m aaharaami, ki.m vo icchitabba''nti? pucchati. "Friend, what shall I bring you, what do you wish?" ****** English: As to the words, the venerable Saariputta saw him, the meaning is that after the Blessed One had gone, the venerable Saariputta who came afterwards saw him. It is said that when the Venerable One was dwelling alone, his task was different from when he was together with the Blessed One. When the two chief disciples stayed by themselves, they would in the early morning sweep their dwelling, tend to their bodily needs, sit in quiet while applying themselves to attainment concentration, and then they would, as they were inclined to, go on their alms round. However, when they were together with the Blessed One they would not act in that way. Then the Blessed One, surrounded by the monks, would go on almsround first. When the Buddha had gone, the venerable Sariputta would leave his lodging and consider: ³When there are many monks in a dwelling place, not all of them may be able to make it agreeable.² He would go around and sweep the places that had not been swept. When there was rubbish that was not thrown away, he threw it away. When there was no drinking water in the place where it should be set out, he placed a pot with drinking water. He went to visit the sick and asked: "Friend, what shall I bring you, what do you wish?" ******** 25331 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma patha Dear Ken H, op 12-09-2003 01:38 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: the past deeds of the ariyan don't need > to magically disappear, their results can simply fail to > come to fruition. (because of other, overriding > conditions) N: In the case of ariyans, kamma can produce undesirable vipaka, but not anymore vipaka in the form of an unhappy rebirth. For the arahat: no more rebirth at all. > ---------------- K: > Kamma-patha is mental > Yes, I tend to forget that. And they actually include > six mental actions don't they. I more or less understand > how those six differ from thought (vitakka), but I'd find > it hard to explain. N: Kamma is intention and thus it is mental, it can be accumulated. However, they are committed through body, speech or mind. Ten akusala kammas. > ----------------- Ken: << it is the cetasika which is cetana, intention. > Thanks for pointing that out. Is it possible to be more > specific? For example, can it be said that killing, > slandering, rude speech and ill-will are cetana with dosa > as root condition? (And that their opposites are cetana > with adosa?) N: Slandering can also be committed by lobha: one wants to be popular. The opposites, avoiding these. We cannot say just with adosa, when there is adosa there has to be also alobha. K: Are stealing, foolish babble and covetousness cetana with > lobha? (And are their opposites cetana with alobha?) N: Stealing, foolish babble can be done with dosa: you like to harm the other person. K: Are sexual misconduct, lying and evil views cetana with > lobha and wrong view? N: We have to differentiate: lying can also be with dosa, and the kamma patha which is wrong view are specific kinds of wrong view (denying the workings of kamma, etc.). K: I'm getting ahead of myself -- too much theorising. But > it's tempting to think of the absolute opposite of these > last three as; living in conformity with the rules of Vinaya, > teaching Dhamma and attaining enlightenment :-) N: The rules of Vinaya are for the monks. My next Dhamma Issue I translate mentions different degrees of sexual ethics. The main point of this Issue is about incest. At first I found it so obvious, it is completely wrong, why make it a dhamma point. But obviously some people give a wrong interpretation of Vinaya and this happened indeed. So I just translated it. K: Can the 20 > kamma-pathas be specifically identified among the 89 > cittas? If so, then they must be paramattha dhammas but > if not, then they would seem to be concepts. (The same > question applies to the precepts and the fetters.) N: They are not concepts, think of kamma as cetana cetasika. Terms are used to describe different degrees and aspects of cetana. Kamma and vipaka are realities. Fetters are realities, a group of defilements, as real as anything. Precepts are advices for good conduct. These are expressed by means of terms explaining about realities. We need words so that we can have understanding. > K: A > quick look shows me that some people have been taking my > name in vain! I'd better straighten them out :-) N: :-) I had many a good laugh about this. Nina. 25332 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Larry, op 15-09-2003 02:48 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I'm still not sure about this one: > N: "Change-of lineage is not lokuttara citta, although it has nibbaana > as object, it just adverts to the Path and it is immediately succeeded > by the lokuttara citta which is path-consciousness." N: Magga-citta realizes nibbaana and eradicates defilements. Gotrabhuu, change-of-lineage: it does not eradicate, it is the last citta of the sense-sphere before a citta of another plane of citta arises during that process (in samatha: the last citta before jhanacitta arises). L:If we are going > too fast, let me know and I will stop for a while. N: I don't think so. Since the Tiika is so much I cannot translate all anyway. But Tiika to Vis 14 is literally like Dispeller of Delusion II, p. 157. Nina. 25333 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: Tiika, Vis 8, continuation three. Tiika, Vis 8, continuation three. ***** Tiika 8 (continuation three). Relevant passages: Vis. 8, section 9 (and Vis 16-18): as skill in improvement, detriment and means. Vis 8, section 10 (and Vis 18): As interpreting the internal, and so on. Tiika: aaye va.d.dhiya.m kosalla.m aayakosalla.m, apaaye ava.d.dhiya.m kosalla.m apaayakosalla.m, Skill in improvement is skill in increase with regard to what is profitable, and skill in detriment is skill in decrease with regard to what is unprofitable. upaaye tassa tassa atthassa nibbattikaara.ne kosalla.m upaayakosallanti The words skill in means are used, namely, skill with regard to the means that are the cause of production of such or such benefit. * visu.m visu.m kosallapada.m sambandhitabba.m. The word kosalla, skill, should be connected severally. ajjhatta.m abhiniveso pa.tipajjana.m etissaati ajjhattaabhinivesaa. Interpreting ** the internal is thus its procedure. eva.m bahiddhaabhinivesaa, ubhayaabhinivesaa ca veditabbaa. Evenso interpreting the external and the interpreting of both should be understood. **** English: Skill in improvement is skill in increase with regard to what is profitable, and skill in detriment is skill in decrease with regard to what is unprofitable. The words skill in means are used, namely, skill with regard to the means that are the cause of production of such or such benefit. * The word kosalla, skill, should be connected severally. Interpreting ** the internal is thus its procedure. Evenso interpreting the external, and the interpreting of both should be understood. _______ * skill, kosalla is explained further on, it refers to pa~n~naa which brings the four right efforts to fulfilment. ** abhinivesa, adherence or interpretation is explained in Vis. XIV, 19, and in the footnote. It can be right or wrong interprettaion. Here it is with reference to understanding: interprettaion in accordance with reality as confirmed by experience. ***** (this text should be placed before: Tiika of Vis XIV, 15. I skip Tiika 9, 10. Tiika has nothing on Vis. 11-14, and shall go on with Tiika 14, first and third section. After this Tiika of Vis XIV, 15, which I translated already, should be placed. Nina. 25334 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Larry, Kamma produces the senses and the heartbase (these are all rupas) throughout our life. Eyesense is base as well as doorway for seeing. Eyesense is not doorway when there is no seeing, but it still arises and falls away all the time. Nina. op 15-09-2003 06:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I didn't say the sense base is permanent. I was understanding it as a > sense organ. Ken has this same idea also that the sense base only arises > with the rupa sensation. Maybe I'm wrong. Can anyone tell us if this is > what abhidhamma really says??? 25335 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Nina, What I don't understand is why gotrabuu citta (change-of-lineage consciousness) can have nibbaana as object but not be lokuttara. The reason for this is because it "adverts to the Path". What's the Path? I understand this is a transitional state from being a worldling to an ariyan or a lower level ariyan to a higher level ariyan. Does it mean that nibbaana is seen (understood?) but the defilements haven't dropped away yet? Larry 25336 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Nina, This expanation (below) suits me. Am I correct in thinking there is a material rupa that impinges on (touches) the sensitive matter of the sense base and that sensitive matter translates that touch into a sensation that interrupts the bhavanga stream? Also, can we say there are probably many many impingements that don't get translated into sensations that interrupt the bhavanga? If so, why? What determines what makes it to the bhavanga? Further, does abhidhamma speculate how long lived the material rupa is? Larry Nina: "Hi Larry, Kamma produces the senses and the heartbase (these are all rupas) throughout our life. Eyesense is base as well as doorway for seeing. Eyesense is not doorway when there is no seeing, but it still arises and falls away all the time." 25337 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/15/03 7:05:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > What I don't understand is why gotrabuu citta (change-of-lineage > consciousness) can have nibbaana as object but not be lokuttara. The > reason for this is because it "adverts to the Path". What's the Path? > ======================== Good question! I would love to know precise definitions of several things that I have not yet seen defined anywhere. Among these are "the path", "path consciousness", and "fruition consciousness", and the difference between the last two. Exactly what are thesethree things - what are their natures .. precisely, and what category do they fall under? They are not nibbana or rupas, so they must either be cittas or cetasikas. I presume the latter two are cittas, perhaps all three. I've read that path and fruition consciousness are cittas which take nibbana as object, a notion which might be found strange, making nibbana into an object, unless, as I believe, nibbana is simply the absence of dukkha or the absence of defilements, in which case it is not so strange to take it as an object, because, in general it is not odd to be aware of absences. But, be that as it may, what else is there to say about these cittas, and how do they differ? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25338 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion In a message dated 9/15/2003 1:33:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > At moments when conceit arises, there is therefore ignorance and both this > ignorance and conceit are only eradicated by the arahant. However, there > is no wrong view or wrong delusion about there being any self at moments > of conceit at any time. Wrong view and conceit don’t arise together. Also, > as wrong view and delusions about a self existing are eradicated by the > sotapanna, there is no view of self after this. > > Toby was referring to the references to ‘asmi maana’ (‘I am’ conceit) in > the sutta. I think it’s important to understand the nature of conceit > which involves comparing ‘self’ with ‘others’ but without any belief of > self. As you suggest, if there’s any idea of self existing, then > personality view is present. Even arahants have metta for ‘others’ - > obviously without any view that people actually exist. I thought it was an > excellent sutta to discuss as it can easily be misunderstood. Perhaps > another example of a little abhidhamma being of assistance?? > Hi Sarah I suspected you might have been mis-quoted as it turned out. A couple of things in these paragraphs caught my eye though. Let's just take one. Now, putting aside the Abhidhamma plug... (LOL) I suspect that Arahats: rather than being without any view that people actually exist; I suspect rather, that arahats have the correct view as to how they exist (what they are.) I think they see them as "unfolding causal occurrences" that are bewildered and trapped in an interactive (pain generating) system. With this "correct view," how could arahats not have compassion (or friendliness)? :) This is perhaps what you meant anyway. TG 25339 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 0:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, (Jim, Mike & All). I read the posts, references and qus you raised with interest. It’s all rather over my head, but I meant to make one or two brief comments: --- nina van gorkom wrote: > On Pali list we had the issue whether it is an offence for a monk to use > language other than Pali when explaining the Dhamma. There was a Vinaya > text, Vinaya II.139 = Culavagga V.33.1. ..... Of course I would always assume Buddhaghosa’s commentary on any text to be correct;-) I think the passages Jim and I have been discussing from Sammohavinodani also give indications about the reasons for the transmission of the teachings via the Sangha in correct Pali. Perhaps the grammar texts by Mahakaccayana and the wisdom that may be developed also support this? Certainly, I know the details in the Vinaya are very precise in this regard. .... > Nina: Now, I have heard in Thailand that it is an offense for a monk to > use > non pali terms for dhamma. I do not know whether the Vinaya has other > texts > about this. I mentioned that Ven. Nyanatiloka uses: karma, nirvana and > was > wondering about this. .... I don’t know. Obviously we have to consider the audience. Kom, Jon and I have been discussing whether we should use the full Velthius spelling in the simple Pali glossary in the files, but we have to consider what will be most helpful and user-friendly for newcomers who are using it too. .... > Is it perhaps in the Peg sutta, I could not find this one. Rob K and > Sarah > quoted this, it is about the decline of the teachings, preferring > poetical > language to the scriptures. ..... Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7 p708 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation "In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata --deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness --are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works --the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric,the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.” .... I’m not sure if this relates to the actual use of Pali, unless you say the words of the Buddha are only in Pali? .... > What is even more: we read in a Siam Society Journal (did not keep it, > is it > on line now?) that twice in history a group of Thai monks went to Sri > Lanka > to be reordained, because the pronunciation of the Pali of the rituals > was > not correct in Thailand. I would not know how to find out the correct > pronunciation, is it possible to know? I corresponded with Rob K about > this > long ago. The late Phra Dhammadharo was also reordained in Sri Lanka for > this reason. It may seem too puritan, but I think there must be reasons > behind it. He must have considered this very seriously, having known him > as > very conscientious. Maybe Jonothan knows more. It is quite a step to be > reordained. > I think it all stems from true concern to keep the teachings intact > after > they were rehearsed at the three Councils. Perhaps there is more in the > Co > to the Vinaya. > I hope one of you can help me with more info. .... With regard to ordination ceremonies, I know the details are very precise. Phra Dhammadharo used to talk at length on this subject to us and even more with Jonothan. I think it’s quite a ‘minefield’ when one looks closely and the cracks in the systems are evident. I think there are two main areas that he was particularly concerned about: one related to pronunciation issues and for him, the general mispronunciation of Pali in Thailand (just as Jim explained) . This, as he understood it, invalidated ordination ceremonies. The second area (which Jon remembers, but I don’t) related to the validity of the ordination ceremony in other regards, including the Siimaa (the place where the ordination happens). For example, there are rules concerning the contact or connection with the Sima to the world outside its boundary. Telephone lines or electricity lines might be infringements, for example. I think there’s a lot more. B.Bodhi also made a passing reference to ordination difficulties in Sri Lanka these days too. As I said, I think it could be a minefield to investigate in depth. What I paricularly remember was how on several occasions when Phra Dhammadharo was explaining some of these details, Khun Sujin just remained silent. When I commented on this to her afterwards, she just stressed that there could be satipatthana anytime, anyplace and in any lifestyle. Sorry not to be of more help. Metta, Sarah ==== 25340 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Dear Nina, Larry & Jim, (Mike, Gayan), You were adding more about the patisambhidas (discriminations). --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, > While in India we had such an interesting discussion with A. Supee about > these. He was explainig how the Buddha knew the way to express all > details > of Dhamma in perfect and clear language. Expression in language is also > a > discriminative panna and the Buddha had the highest degree of it. > Sariputta > had it less, but was still very apt. The other great disciples had it in > a > lesser degree. .... Jim and I were wondering about the reference to ‘all ariyans’ in the Sammohavinodani. I think this will be clarified in VismX1V 21-32 which gives a lot of helpful detail. in X1V 27, we read how the four discriminations ‘can be placed in the two categories: the plane of the trainer and the plane of the non-trainer.’ Only the chief disciples and great disciples fall into the latter. We then read of further categories within these. The Katthavatthu and commentary (ch V,v)also refer to this ‘knowledge of an Ariyan’. In the Appendix (p381) in the PTS Katthavatthu transl, there is a discussion on ‘patisambhiida and abhisamaya’(analysis and penetration) with reference to the comy to DN and also comments by Ledi Sayadaw. References to ‘all Ariyans’ in this regard, seem to refer to insight and attainement as in the line I quoted and was puzzled by: “Ariyasavako no patisambhidappato nama natthi.” (There is no noble disciple who has not reached the Discriminations). .... > The fourth one: knowledge of the first three: the Buddha knew all > details of > all dhammas, he knew cause and effect.See Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch > 15. > Meaning, attho: the fruit of a cause. and dhamma in the sense of hetu, > cause. See my meanings of Dhamma, ..... I found the details you gave very helpful, Nina. Also when we read the details in these next sections in Vism, I think it’s very clear that details about realities are being referred to in all the Patisambhidas and we see the development (32) is by the prification of views, insights etc into aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, D.O,etc. So even if we read words like’analysis’, I understand these to be incredibly high levels of penetrative wisdom. More on language at (25): “One who has reached the discrimination of language knows, on hearing the words, ‘phasso, vedanaa’, etc, that that is the individual-essence language, and on hearing ‘phassaa, vedano’ etc, he knows that that is not the individual-essence language.” I’d better be more careful with my spelling;-) (Sorry, to jump ahead, Larry, but I was looking at your post and footnote on X1V,8), getting confused by ‘analysis’ and ‘synthesis’). As Nina has said, according to the texts we would not expect to find arahants with patisambhidas (discriminative/analytical knowledges) today! I’ll be glad if anyone corrects any errors as I this is a very difficult subject for me to even get a tiny theoretical handle on. Metta, Sarah p.s Mike & Gayan, I also appreciated your quote and comments about chanting and Pali - as you said, there were concerns about the ways of transmission of the teachings even in the Buddha’s life-time. ========================== I repost the passage: > of > the Abhidhamma which deals with the four analytic insights, > patisambhidaa: > 1. insight of attha *, result (of a cause). > 2. insight of dhamma: condition or cause. > 3. insight of nirutti, of the language corresponding to reality, > expressing > attha and dhamma. > 4. insight of patibhaana: of illumination, confidence of speech. The > knowledge of the three aboive mentioned knowledges in all details. > (See dict of Ven. Nyanatiloka). > Arahats with the highest distinction were endowed with the four > patisambhidas. There are different degrees of them. The Buddha1s chief > disciples did not have them in the same degree of the Buddha, the other > arahats had them in a lesser degree than the chief disciples. > The Vibhanga states according to the knowledge of attha and knowledge of > dhamma with regard to the four Truths: > (attha); knowledge of the cause of suffering is analytical knowledge of > origin (dhamma); knowledge of the cessation of suffering is analytical > knowledge of consequence; knowledge of the way leading to the cessation > of > suffering is analytical knowledge of origin...> 25341 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Issues of Dhamma, no 10. Three meanings of Satipatthana Dear Nina, Howard, Jon, Jim, RobertK, Kom & All, > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Three Meanings of Satipatthåna. > > > > Issue of Analysis: Does satipatthåna classified as: ‘the teacher’s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise’ mean the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: ‘The teacher’s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise’ means indeed the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went.< > ..... > Sarah: > I’ve read and heard explanations about the three meanings of satipatthana before but I think this possibly clarifies better a discussion some of us had a long time back about a phrase Howard raised in a sutta along the lines of the eightfold path leading to satipatthana. It was most puzzling and we all looked at the Pali, inc. Jim I think. < .... Sarah: I’ve found it now. It was the Satipatthana-vibhanga Sutta which was being discussed at length. There were many messages on it from many people, but I’ll just select parts below from one message of Jim’s which gives the Pali of the phrase under discussion and more details by Jon . http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9398.html If we take the third meaning of satipatthana above, referring to ‘the teacher’s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise’ meaning ‘the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went’, perhaps it now makes sense. Any comments? Metta, Sarah ====== Jim wrote: >The Pali phrase is "satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaagaaminii pa.tipadaa". It seems to me that "the path of practice" is either a translation of "pa.tipadaa"(the way) or "-gaaminii pa.tipadaa" (the way leading to). It is also worth noting that the Pali text takes satipa.t.thaana to be in the singular(satipa.t.thaana.m) which B. Bodhi translates as "the establishment of mindfulness" while Thanissaro Bhikkhu has "the frames of reference" (plural). ***** Jon wrote: > I refer to the passage in the ATI translation that reads: "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve,right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." > > In the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (CDB, Wisdom), this appears as: > "And what is the way leading to the development of the establishment of mindfulness? It is the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, Right View . Right Concentration. This is called the way leading to the development of the > establishment of mindfulness." > > The rendering in the CDB version is fairly standard stuff. I am wondering > where the words "path of practice" in the ATI translation come from. Do > you have any thoughts on this? Can anybody help us with the Pali here? ***** From Nina’s recent message "Issues of Dhamma, no 10': > >”This, monks, is the third arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan > practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to > instruct a group. When it is said: ‘There are three arousings of > mindfulness each of which an ariya disciple practises and, practising > which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,...’” > ***** > > Summarizing, satipatthåna which is the kind of ‘the Master’s threefold > surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the > entry > of his disciples [on the way of practice]’, has the following meaning: > it > is the way along which the Buddha and his >disciples went. > ***** 25342 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG, It’s good to be discussing these details with you;-) --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I suspected you might have been mis-quoted as it turned out. ... It was a paraphrase in Toby’s own words, I think;-) Howard might accuse me of just having done the same with his comments;-) ... A couple > of > things in these paragraphs caught my eye though. Let's just take one. > Now, > putting aside the Abhidhamma plug... (LOL) .... Oh no - my security blanket .... > I suspect that Arahats: rather than being without any view that people > actually exist; I suspect rather, that arahats have the correct view as > to how they > exist (what they are.) ..... I’d say that when sakkaya ditthi (personality view) has been eradicated, there is no more view of any kind that ‘people actually exist’. .... >I think they see them as "unfolding causal > occurrences" that are bewildered and trapped in an interactive (pain > generating) system. .... I think they would see this description as a set of concepts with little bearing on the namas and rupas which are the only phenomena which actually exist;-) .... > With this "correct view," how could arahats not have compassion (or > friendliness)? :) > > This is perhaps what you meant anyway. ..... Not really :-) Another paraphrase gone astray??? I know it’s hard to understand how with the full appreciation that what we take for people and things are only namas and rupas that these same ‘people and things’ can be the objects of mana, metta and even of panna, but not of satipatthana. This relates to the discussions Howard, Toby and I have been having too. The point is that concepts, including people, are still objects of cittas (consciousness) for ariyans with no more wrong view, just as they are for us now. The difference is that there is no illusion that these concepts represent realities in anyway. Although I agree that namas and rupas are conditioned or ‘causal’, I’m not sure they can be referred to as ‘occurrences’. Perhaps you’d clarify. Does ‘unfolding’ refer to ‘impermanent’ or ‘changing’? Sorry to be so paticular. (It must be the abhidhamma which has crept in....LOL ...can’t leave home without it, but then I read abhidhamma in the suttas too;-)). Metta, Sarah ====== 25343 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > My point pertained to the applying of attention, to how it is > applied > and to what. Of course mindfulness and insight can arise at *any* time. > But > the conscious directing of attention is another matter. .... I agree with you here, Howard. In your comments to Icaro, I think you referred to Dhamma practice and perhaps we differ in how this is defined. For me, I think of bhavana (development) or pa.tipatti (practice) as opposed to pariyatti (theoretical knowledge), i.e mindfulness and insight as opposed to ‘conscious directing of attention’. ..... >Dhamma *practice* involves conscious application and direction of the various faculties. I was talking of Dhamma *practice*, and not the fruits of Dhamma practice. .... In this regard, I don’t see ‘practice’ even at the beginning at the first moments of satipatthana and the fruits or development of more advanced practice as being any different. In other words, I don’t see either as involving ‘conscious application and direction of the various faculties’. I think we’ve been down this road a few times and I think your discussion with Jon will also be relevant when it gathers pace;-). I also think you made a very wise comment here to Larry which is helpful for us all: H: “P.S. It's good that we clarify our perspectives on this, Larry. But there also is no necessity that we persuade the other (or even ourself) of the correctness of our position. I think it's okay to disagree, and very much okay to be unsure. :-)” We’re not here to persuade or be ‘right’, but merely to share our understanding --and confusion too -- to date as I see it. Tomorrow it may be different, and that’s fine too. There are mind-states and other realities to be known at all these times as well. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, you’ve been making many good points about rupas, the Bahiya sutta and others I can’t quickly recall --i.e I’ve agreed with them;-) ====================================== 25344 From: jaranoh Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:53am Subject: Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7 Q: Next question, pannatti is both dhammaarama.na and dhammadhaatu. Ajahn Supee what is the difference. How do they differ? ASupee: Dhamma-dhaatu refers to dhamma which must have its own characteristics known through the mind-door, but dhammaaraama.na refers to all object that is known through the mind-door which includes pannati. Dhamma-dhaatu include citta 89, cetasika 52, ruupa 21 (sukhuma-ruupa 16 + pasaada-ruupa 5), and nibbana, and dhammaa-ramana, above mentioned and pannatti. Pannatti refers to summitti-dhamma, not reality; it does not have characteristics that can be known by sati and panna, but it is known to citta [and cetasika]. Q: Yes. This is why A. Sujin says that sati and panna often are not sharp enough to be ware of the reality, but always stuck at the pannatti. [panna is always sharp, but it just seldom arises.] ASujin: Sacca ~na.na understands correctly, and it knows that this is at the moment of thinking. If citta does not think, there is no story. This moment, there is citta whatever it is thinking about, if this is no thinking, there will be no story. Pannatti 'exists' only when citta thinks, but we never know that there was not a 'thing' if we don't think about it. .. but it appears as if it is real, doesn't it? Q: True. ASujin: But if citta does not think about it, will there be the thing? Q: ..no. ASujin: So it not real? Q: No, it's not. When we are asleep, there is no thinking, and we know no story and things. Only when we are awake do things exist because we think. ASujin: Yes. Until the rise of udayabbaya~na.na, the [characteristics of] thinking must be known with increasingly keener panna, discerning the dhamma. Because there is always thinking between moments of dhamma arising and falling way, the characteristics of dhamma never appear. Citta always thinks, be it long or short. Compared to seeing, thinking is very long, and arise often. Panna has to be keener and keener to be ware of thinking and discern dhamma. Not until the level of ~nata parinna, which is after naama-ruupa-paricheda~na.na, does panna fully penetrate the thinking. Not until that level is sati fully aware of thinking. Then sati and panna will be aware and understand the characteristics of thinking--which is naama and is not our Self. 25345 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] question Hi Frank M, --- Frank wrote: > > > I recently started reading "Abhidhamma in Daily life" (1997 ... You already received a couple of good answers to yr qus, but let us know if you have more or if they don't satisfy you;-) Of course, we're all glad you've joined us here and are coming straight in with these qus. Welcome to DSG! Can I persuade you to tell us a little about yourself, such as where you live and how you come to be reading this book of Nina's? Pls let us know if you have any other comments or qus or need any tips on searching topics in the archives etc. As a reminder to everyone, RobM has posted word files of the entire tidied up archives (almost to date) in the files for anyone who wishes to download, use these for a search or read through 'like a novel' on an aeroplane: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Most the posts are also backed up at this site: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ With metta, Sarah p.s Somewhere, we have another Frank taking a loooong lurk spell, so hope you don't mind 'M' added to your name. ======== 25346 From: connie Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:02am Subject: Re: Pali and Sanskrit Dear Pali glossary revisers, .... Sarah: I don’t know. Obviously we have to consider the audience. Kom, Jon and I have been discussing whether we should use the full Velthius spelling in the simple Pali glossary in the files, but we have to consider what will be most helpful and user-friendly for newcomers who are using it too. .... If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I think seeing both spellings would be useful. Kinda like seeing an acceptable and preferred spelling in an English dictionary. peace, connie 25347 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:01am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 14 Tiika Vis. 14 Relevant text Visuddhimagga 14: 14. tikesu pa.thamattike parato assutvaa pa.tiladdhapa~n~naa attano cintaavasena nipphannattaa cintaamayaa. parato sutvaa pa.tiladdhapa~n~naa sutavasena nipphannattaa sutamayaa. yathaa tathaa vaa bhaavanaavasena nipphannaa appanaappattaa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa. As regards the triads, understanding acquired without hearing from another is that "consisting in what is reasoned" because it is produced by one's own reasoning. Understanding acquired by hearing from another is that "consisting in what is heard", because it is produced by hearing. Understanding that has reached absorption, having been somehow produced by (meditative) development, is that "consisting in development". Tiika 14 (first part): 14. attano cintaavasenaati tassa tassa anavajjassa atthassa saadhane paropadesena vinaa attano upaayacintaavaseneva. As to the words, by one¹s own reasoning, this means: without someone else¹s teaching, by one¹s own thinking of the means, which results in such and such profitable benefit. sutavasenaati yathaasutassa paropadesassa vasena. As to the words, because of hearing, this means: because of the instruction of someone else as it is heard. yathaa tathaa vaati parato upadesa.m sutvaa vaa asutvaa vaa sayameva bhaavana.m anuyu~njantassa. As to the words, in whatever way, this means, of someone who pursues development by himself, no matter whether he has heard an instruction by someone else or not. ``appanaappattaa''ti ida.m sikhaappattabhaavanaamaya.m dassetu.m vutta.m, na pana ``appanaappattaava bhaavanaamayaa''ti. ........ (skipped) English: As to the words, by one¹s own reasoning, this means: without someone else¹s teaching, by one¹s own thinking of the means, which results in such and such profitable benefit. As to the words, because of hearing, this means: because of the instruction of someone else as it is heard. As to the words, in whatever way, this means, of someone who pursues development by himself, no matter whether he has heard an instruction by someone else or not. Nina. 25348 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Dear Howard and Larry, Larry writes: >> What I don't understand is why gotrabuu citta (change-of-lineage >> consciousness) can have nibbaana as object but not be lokuttara. The >> reason for this is because it "adverts to the Path". What's the Path? N: gotrabhuu: Change of lineage: gotta is clan. That person will no longer be an ordinary person, but become of the lineage of the ariyans. The ariyan who attains a higher stage of enlightenment has instead of gotrabhuu: vodaana, meaning purification. (See also Abhidhammatta Sangaha, Ven. Narada's notes) Yes, not lokuttara and yet having nibbana as object. It is only in a flash (an infinitesimally short moment) before the path-consciousness arises. More than a year ago we discussed it (with Num?) I was not sure about this. This came out: also after the process of enlightenment when the cittas are of the sensesphere nibbana can be the object. That person reviews the Path, nibbana, etc. Thus, at that moment there is no thinking of a concept of nibbaana, but nibbaana that was just experienced before is reviewed. Howard: I would love to know precise definitions of "the path", > "path consciousness", and "fruition consciousness", and the difference between > the last two. Exactly what are these three things - what are their natures .. > precisely, and what category do they fall under? They are not nibbana or > rupas, > so they must either be cittas or cetasikas. N: Path, magga, can refer to several things, it is difficult and we have to look at the context. The eightfold Path that is to be developed: the pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna taking the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. The mundane Path can be fivefold or sixfold, depending on whether one of the three factors that are sila arise or not. (See Dhamma Issue) Path-consciousness, magga-citta, this is the lokuttara magga-citta that arises, experiences nibbaana and eradicates defilements. All eight path-factors accompany this citta. The Path is supramundane, lokuttara, that is, citta and cetasikas are lokuttara. Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta: this is the result, vipaka, of the magga-citta, succeeding immediately upon the path-consciousness. This never happens in the case of the sense-sphere cittas. The fruition-consciousness experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that stage, have been already eradicated by the magga-citta. There are four stages of enlightenment, as you know, thus there are eight types of lokuttara cittas, two types for each stage. These types are, for those who attain enlightenment with jhanafactors of the five stages of jhana, multiplied accordingly. Thus, there can be forty types of lokuttara cittas. H: I've read that path and fruition consciousness are > cittas > which take nibbana as object, a notion which might be found strange, making > nibbana into an object N: During the stages of insight there is a gradual turning away from conditioned realities, one sees more and more the disadvantages of them. When panna is ripe there are conditions for the experience of the unconditioned element. Nina. 25349 From: Frank Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Sarah, Nina, Ken H, > Can I persuade you to tell us a little about yourself, such as where you live and how you come to be reading this book of Nina's? > I'm Belgian and for 10 years I have been interested mainly in practice rather than theory. But one informs the other, of course. Hence my growing interest in working on a more firm basis for "right understanding". Although I've read most of the Suttas (with some gaps in the Anguttara and Khuddaka Nikaya), a quick glance at some Abhidhamma works made me realize I need some serious preparation before delving into that. So "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" – which has an excellent practical angle – seemed like the best place to start. I have to thank Ken H and Nina for their kind replies, but something still puzzles me about the nature of cetasikas. For example, suppose I eat an ice cream. There will be a mind moment with the accompanying vedana ("pleasant"). But I can also become aware that my experience of an object is pleasant. So here the cetasika (vedana) itself is the object and not that which experiences an object. But the object of what? Of the citta which it assists? How can that be, since – as Nina mentioned in her reply -- "citta and cetasikas experience the same object" ? I probably need to read some more to figure this one out, but if there's something basic here that I've missed or overlooked, do let me know. Anyway, thanks for your interest. Frank M 25350 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, As I understand it: Personality view is not the view that "people actually exist". However, both the views "people actually exist" and "people actually don't exist" are speculative views, just like the views "there is self" and "there is no self." In a negative term, both metaphysical views or assertions on existence are to be abandoned. Why are they to be abandoned? Because both lead to the entanglement of views, to agitation, not to calm and dispassion. What are personality views? They are views identifying oneself with the conditioned, or delineation of what one is in terms of the conditioned, such as the five aggregates or six sense bases. A variety of personality views are formulated or listed in Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 Samanupassana Sutta Assumptions http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi TG, [snip] 25351 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi, Nina - Thank you for this detailed reply. There are a couple aspects of this matter which I would like to pursue a bit further. (I will be doing a fair amount of snipping.) In a message dated 9/16/03 1:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard and Larry, > > Howard: I would love to know precise definitions of "the path", > >"path consciousness", and "fruition consciousness", and the difference > between > >the last two. Exactly what are these three things - what are their natures > .. > >precisely, and what category do they fall under? They are not nibbana or > >rupas, > >so they must either be cittas or cetasikas. > N: Path, magga, can refer to several things, it is difficult and we have to > look at the context. The eightfold Path that is to be developed: the > pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna taking > the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. I guess one might say this is the "conventional path". -------------------------------------------- > The mundane Path can be fivefold or sixfold, depending on whether one of > the > three factors that are sila arise or not. (See Dhamma Issue) > ------------------------------------------- Howard: The sila factors strike me precisely as the *most* conventional! (More about that later.) ------------------------------------------- > Path-consciousness, magga-citta, this is the lokuttara magga-citta that > arises, experiences nibbaana and eradicates defilements. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Clear. ------------------------------------------- All eight> > path-factors accompany this citta. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Not so clear - at least not to me. On the face of it, and I don't know how else to properly understand these - right speech, right action and right livelihood strike me not as cetasikas, but as conventional activities that are both continuing and repeating. The notion of these occuring as factors of a mind-moment makes no sense to me. Certainly the *inclination* to such activities may occur, but the *inclination* to right livelihood, for example, is not the same as right livelihood. ---------------------------------------------- The Path is supramundane, lokuttara, that> > is, citta and cetasikas are lokuttara. > Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta: this is the result, vipaka, of the > magga-citta, succeeding immediately upon the path-consciousness. This never > happens in the case of the sense-sphere cittas. The fruition-consciousness > experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that > stage, have been already eradicated by the magga-citta. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: My question here is twofold: 1) Does this say that fruition consciousness has multiple objects? It sounds that way, but, of course, cannot be so. 2) How does one experience now-nonexistent defilements? Is it the memory of them that is experienced, or the knowledge of the fact of their having ceased? ------------------------------------------------ ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25352 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi Nina, Can it happen that gotrabu consciousness directly understands nibbana but the defilements fail to permanently cease, lokuttara doesn't arise, and the mundane, defiled state resumes? Larry 25353 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:43pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 16, 17, 18 "The Path of Purification" ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 16. 9. In the third triad, it is increase that is called "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these things to mind [440] both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase, development, and perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of understanding ... [for words elided see Dhs. 16] ... non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in improvement' (Vbh. 325-26). 17. Non-increase is what is called detriment. That also is twofold as the diminution of good and the arousing of harm. Skill in detriment is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in detriment? When a man brings these things to mind, both unarisen profitable things do not arise ... ' (Vbh. 326) and so on. 18. But in either of these cases any skill in means to cause the production of such and such things, which skill occurs at that moment and is aroused on that occasion, is what is called "skill in means", according as it is said: 'And all understanding of means thereto is "skill in means"' (Vbh. 326). So it is of three kinds as skill in improvement, in detriment, and in means. 25354 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi, Frank - In a message dated 9/16/03 1:52:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frankmatton@y... writes: > For example, suppose > I eat an ice cream. There will be a mind moment with the accompanying > vedana ("pleasant"). But I can also become aware that my experience > of an object is pleasant. So here the cetasika (vedana) itself is the > object and not that which experiences an object. But the object of > what? Of the citta which it assists? How can that be, since – as Nina > mentioned in her reply -- "citta and cetasikas experience the same > object" ? > ========================== It seems to me that the pleasantness that is the current object of a citta is not exactly the cetasika of pleasantness that was associated with the prior ice-cream taste, but is a (fresh) memory of same, and, with regard to the current citta, this pleasantness-memory is not a cetasika at all, but is the object .. period. In fact, there may well be a different pleasantness occurring in the current mindstate with *this* being a cetasika, and not the object. (It seems a fair assumption that the experiencing of pleasantness is pleasant! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25355 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 16, 17, 18 "So it is of three kinds as skill in improvement, in detriment, and in means." Hi Nina, Does kosalla (skill) mean "understanding" in this case, as in: understanding improvement, understanding ruin, and understanding means? Larry 25356 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, > !!! Isn't pa.n.dicca derived from pa.n.dita meaning skilled or clever in > other contexts? Skilled in the sounds or letters? I think you're right in pa.n.dicca (Skt. paa.n.ditya) being derived from pa.n.dita. Not sure of the meaning though as it's one of those words one could spend a fair amount of time studying. I don't know, Jim, but > in light of what we're reading in the Vism and elsewhere, how can we talk > about the development of pa~n~naa leading to Nibbana without it being the > 'penetration of characteristics', of 'sabhaava' as opposed to the knowing > of concepts as in the skill in Pali letters? What are the characteristics, > the namas and rupas known as a result of learning the Pali alphabet. (I > don't mean any disrespect for the latter of course). The kind of pa~n~naa that is being developed in Vism is insight-knowledge, but there are other kinds too such as sutamayaa pa~n~naa that seems to me to have a connection with a deep understanding of Pali or the Buddha's language. I was also thinking of a comparison of the money-changer's knowledge of money with the expert's knowledge of Pali. I think I may have a very hard time trying to convince you, especially if you don't agree that the Pali language and the teachings presented in that language (concepts) can be a focus for pa~n~naa. It's also far from being clear to me when I think of how one would go about explaining the skilfulness of clever criminals in high places. > > > "Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its > > object, > > > not a concept as its object." > > > > This is quite an interesting statement. Do you think, then, that the > > 'attha' and 'dhamma' of the first two discriminations refer to > > concepts ie. attha-pa~n~natti & naama-pa~n~natti, respectively? > .... > No, I don't understand any of the discriminations as referring to concepts > but to incredibly developed penetrative insight - fully understanding > causes, results and so on. I hasten to add, I know very little on this > subject. One of the five things in the explanation of 'attha' in the Discrimination of Meaning is the "meaning of what is spoken" (Dispeller, 1944). And similarly for 'dhamma' in the Discrimination of Law there is "what is spoken" (1945). Would you not consider these to be concepts? However, these only form part of the explanation of the two discriminations and I'm sure they would go well beyond concepts too. I think the translations 'meaning' and 'law' don't adequately give the full range of the applied meanings of 'attha' and 'dhamma' in these discriminations and should probably be best left untranslated. I think it's much better to study the teachings in the Buddha's own language. Recently, I've been thinking of translations as being counterfeits. They should never be taken as equivalents of the original. I never did put much faith in translations and I will probably never be a translator myself. It's a good thing that the Pali has been kept alive and well. Think of how much worse off we'd all be if there had been a dominant mindset that considered translations to be exact equivalents of the originals and the Pali had been discarded and obliterated many centuries ago. ..... > I can > > see how language can be perceived as sequences of sounds devoid of any > > meaning or names. Often when I'm reciting Pali to myself I just like > > to listen to or feel the muscular articulations of the sounds being > > uttered without any attempt to understand what they might mean or > > stand for. I always thought this was due to laziness on my part, but > > the above statement gives me some hope that it may not all be in vain. > .... > I don't understand this to be the meaning at all, though I have no doubt > there can be some physilogical or other value - like at the start of my > yoga classes when I join in a chant. I've no idea what it's about, but Dr > Ma says it's good for my voice and throat;-) Sometimes too, I read out > Pali phrases just for practice. You're probably right. > With regard to the discrimination, I understood when I read it that as > soon as the sound is heard, the full meaning is comprehended. For example > the sounds of 'attha' or 'dhamma' or 'hetu' are heard and without any > analysis (or concepts as object) the full and deep meaning is thoroughly > known. As I suggested before, this is how a disciple such as Sariputta > could hear a few lines of Abhidhamma and thoroughly understand the > complexity of detail and how of course, the Buddha, with the greatest > knowledge of all could thoroughly understand anything as soon as he was > enlightened with his omniscience. > > It's difficult to relate it at all to our very limited undestanding at > all. But, for example, if I say 'nama' or 'rupa' to someone who has not > heard anything about the Dhamma, it means nothing. If I say it to you or > John, without anymore detail, there is a lot of understood meaning. If I > said it to someone with greater insight, it would mean a lot more still. > So I think to an arahant with patisambhida (discriminations), the full > depth of the teachings would be penetrated on hearing these brief sounds. > > Jim, this is just speculation as I try to make sense to myself;-) Thanks for your interesting speculations. The four discriminations is a subject that I need to spend a lot of time studying and mulling over. > Interpreting squiggles from the Pali, I think we have: > > "...niruttipatisambhida saddarammana nama jata, na paññatti-arammana." > (...Discrimination of Language comes to have sounds as object, not > concepts) > ..... > > I don't understand it either. The Magadha tongue is also foremost in > > the realms of hell-beings, animals, hungry ghosts, and deities > > according to Dispeller §1949. Does this mean that animals can > > understand Pali? Perhaps this is so when a Buddha or Arahant is > > speaking to them. > .... > Could it mean foremost in terms of being the no 1. language (rather than > most common) as we read in the next para about how other languages change > but "only this Magadha tongue correctly called the perfect (brahma) usage, > the noble usage, does not change."??? And it then goes on to talk about > why the Buddha used this language relating to the above: I was thinking along those lines also. > I tried my best to keep it short Jim and reluctantly snipped a couple of > sub-threads like the Mulapariyaya sutta. It could easily have been twice > as long;-) I think you did a good job at keeping it short this time but I noticed my name kept showing up in your other recent posts as if it were another way for you to sneak in other topics of interest for me to think about and comment on. :-) > p.s I hope you've been reading about the solitary lifestyles of Reg and > Chittapala Down Under;-) Yes, I've been reading about their solitary lifestyles. Like Reg, I also lived for the first ten years without electricity. I also have a lot of experience staying in small tents during my long periods of travel when I was much younger. Best wishes, Jim 25357 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. op 16-09-2003 01:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Am I correct in thinking there is a > material rupa that impinges on (touches) the sensitive matter of the > sense base and that sensitive matter translates that touch into a > sensation that interrupts the bhavanga stream? N: Sensitive matter does not tranlate, it does not do anything. It is rupa. There are conditions operating and we cannot know the *why*. We only know that it is due to kamma whether there will be seeing or the other sense-cognitions, these are vipaka. L: Also, can we say there are probably many many impingements that don't > get translated into sensations that interrupt the bhavanga? If so, why? > What determines what makes it to the bhavanga? N: the bhavanga may be "disturbed" and still the process may not occur. The rupa which impinged fell away because its time was up. Again, we cannot know the why. L: Further, does abhidhamma speculate how long lived the material rupa is? The Abhidhamma does not speculate. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, when the duration of rupa is compared to that of citta. Or, counting three sub-moments of each citta as: arising moment, moments of presence and moment of falling away, rupa lasts as long as fiftyone submoments of citta. Nina. 25358 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7, thinking Dear Jaran, Thank you very much for these conversations, I keep them in my file. This one about thinking is very important. We discuss all the time thinking and concepts, and we imagine that we know what thinking is. It seems rather easy: O yes, now I am thinking. But how far off we are! Good to be reminded. With much appreciation, Nina. ----------- > Not until the level of ~nata parinna [N; comprehension of the known], which > is after naama-ruupa-paricheda~na.na [N: first stage of tender insight; distinguishing the Characteristic of nama from that of rupa] does panna fully > penetrate the thinking. Not until that level is sati fully > aware of thinking. Then sati and panna will be aware and > understand the characteristics of thinking--which is naama > and is not our Self. 25359 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi Frank, ------------- > I have been interested mainly in > practice rather than theory. But one informs the other, of course. > Hence my growing interest in working on a more firm basis > for "right understanding". ------------ I wholeheartedly agree. Right understanding comes first; It conditions right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration to arise with it and perform their functions. There is no other way in which satipatthana can occur. ------------- > suppose I > eat an ice cream. There will be a mind moment with the accompanying > vedana ("pleasant"). But I can also become aware that my experience > of an object is pleasant. So here the cetasika (vedana) itself is the > object and not that which experiences an object. > But the object of what? ------------- Good question. I need to read ADL again but I THINK citta experiences only its object -- it doesn't experience the vedana or other cetasikas that accompany it. So when the object is flavour, citta knows only flavour. When the object is a concept such as; "this is ice cream," citta knows only, "this is ice cream." However, among the potential objects of citta are the previous citta and cetasikas. They have just fallen away but they can still be experienced perfectly clearly (just as a resonating gong can still be heard). So the vedana that experiences any of the tongue-door or mind-door objects can, itself, be experienced and thought about. Then the concept might become, "I am enjoying this ice cream." I hope that's close -- let's wait for some more replies. Kind regards, Ken H 25360 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 0:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma patha Dear Nina, Thank you for these explanations, you have been very patient. It is gradually becoming clear that the twenty courses of action are all the same, single type of paramattha dhamma; cetana. (It's a matter of "different degrees and aspects.") As you say, it doesn't depend on whether the citta is with lobha or dosa, slandering and stealing are still slandering and stealing. It was interesting to reread your original post on this thread; "Dhamma Issues No 8." You say that a Sotapanna may speak with anger and that may look as if he is slandering but it won't be. The reason being; a sotapanna is incapable of unhappy-rebirth-producing kamma. As has often been said, it's difficult to know the intentions behind kamma-pathas. For example, someone may 'steal' a gun from a violent man. Or someone may 'kill' a mosquito while trying to prevent the spread of malaria. There's obviously more to these things than meets the eye. -------------. > The opposites, avoiding these. We cannot say just with > adosa, when there is adosa there has to be also alobha. --------------- Even so, kusala cittas have one of the three wholesome hetus predominating haven't they? A moment of metta is different from a moment of dana, for example. When I was writing the previous message, I was thinking that kusala cittas were actually alobha-mula-citta or adosa- mula-citta or amoha-mula-citta. But after a quick check with ADL, I take that back. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25361 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Proximate cause of understanding Jim Thanks for correcting me on this. So there is no mention of proximate cause in this passage -- only of the other factors (manifestation, etc). Seems odd, but there it is. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > The statement: "non-perplexity as its proximate cause," is due to a > translation mistake in The Expositor and was corrected by Nina > after I > pointed it out. You must have missed the following correction Nina > posted to DSG on Aug. 3: > > < Jim pointed out a mistake in Atthasalini. On Zolag there is a > special > place > for corrections. You can also correct it in my book Cetasikas. 25362 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Chittapala and simply living. Hi Christine, Azita, Nori & All, I hope you don’t mind me combining a couple of your posts her. I’m leaving out all references to dogs and also any mention of in these simple living comments: --- gazita2002 wrote: > > You also mentioned simple living. Yes, I am quite good at > that and I'm wondering if it's bec. I really could not be fussed > looking after all the things one tends to collect. I remember my ex > partner was a real Steptoe, had heaps of stuff and I often felt > cluttered by all these possessions. However, I'm not convinced that > it has much to do with being wholesome really - not that that is what > you are saying. .... I fully agree with you. Having been brought up in large English houses full of antiques and seen all the care and time needed, I’ve gone to the other extreme - small, minimalist and averse to unnecessary bits and pieces. Lots of attachment to this way. It’s certainly no more wholesome. My poor mother frets about who will look after her antiques in due course. I just say ‘count me out’, whereas one of my kind brothers tries to reassure her he’ll do his best to help. Also like you (well, going that way anyway;-)), I seldom wear any make-up or jewellery these days, but again it’s more because I can’t be fussed, especially as I swim, do yoga and rush here and there. I think that equating attachment with possessions is a real red herring, as we saw with the mulch;-). As soon as we open our eyes, hear, smell, taste or feel, the attachment slips in immediately. Then there’s all the attachment to the stories. The other morning as my alarm went off, I was woken from a pleasant dream. For a few moments I was aware of clinging to the story, not wanting to let it go, in spite of knowing it was a dream;-( Still, opportunities for awareness at any of these times too. ..... > I think the real wholesomness comes from having a mind as clean > and a clear as an empty house. However, that state is far away for > me and in the meantime, I live the way I live, good states, bad > states, all coming and going, not me, not mine, not myself. ... Well said and I agree. **** --- christine_forsyth wrote: > On the Cooran weekend when discussing supportive communities for lay > buddhists, there were similar reactions from some of the group. It > had been mentioned that some of us were interested in simpler models > of living, maybe even moving from where we were, reducing working > hours, and living closer to fellow buddhists in conditions more > conducive to Dhamma study and practice. Some of the group reminded us > that all there was was the present moment, and no matter where we > were realities could be studied, that tension, anxiety, aversion, > wanting to be elsewhere, could be insighted as they occur. And I > agree. ..... We all agree here;-) .... >But that is not the point. Gritting ones teeth and staying in > situations that can easily be improved is not more saintly than > making the choice to live elsewhere. It can simply be clinging to the > idea of 'Oh, what a good buddhist I am!' I have lived here for over > twenty years - I don't think staying put proves I am any more > virtuous or further along the Path than choosing to go. Happy to > hear any comments. .... I think the point being made was that only present realities conditioned already can ever be known. So even if there’s aversion, ‘gritting of teeth’, attachment or conceit, there are characteristics which can be known. As I was discussing with Nori in the ‘burning house’ scenario, none of this is to suggest that one should or shouldn’t move, or that it’s better to stay and stick it out than to follow other inclinations. If one thinks like this, it would again be a misunderstanding of the teachings. So, if one wishes to leave one’s job, live in a tent or a vihara or feels some other lifestyle would be more conducive to Dhamma study, companionship [or avoidance of companionship] or merely something one would like to do, there’s no reason why not. After all, we read posts here or plan to go on a trip with K.Sujin to Burma because we’re confident about the value of listening to and discussing the Dhamma. If however, one has the idea that another time and place or another moment is more appropriate for the development of satipatthana, then I think it’s wrong understanding of the objects of sati which are arising at this moment. It’s like the escaping from the bullets first scenario;-) So if there is clinging and mana (conceit) now, why not know them as they are? Also, of course there’s bound to be seeing, hearing and a myriad of other sense door experiences as well. I’m not sure I’ve added anything to your Cooran discussions. I’d be glad to hear what you or the others present, like Ken H, have to say. You mentioned in another post (to me on ignorance) about various ‘lucky’ and ‘unlucky’ kammic results such as being able to hear the Dhamma, being an animal and so on. I agreed with what you said. Ultimately, of course, vipaka moments are so very brief regardless of the lifestyle. We can think and speculate about another more conducive environment and so on, but it is just thinking as we have no idea what conditions will bring about what vipaka at any given moment. Btw, Chris, you mentioned the Jivaka sutta (On Being a Lay Follower) and mentioned you were looking at the Pali too;-) Would you kindly share some of the sutta and your study and reflections? I was also glad Derek helped untangle the different numbering systems. Metta, Sarah ====== 25363 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:58am Subject: Training Precepts Hi Ken H, Christine, RobM, Nina, Howard & All, I just have a few comments to add on this thread from a few posts written: --- kenhowardau wrote: Nina:> > ... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which > > are killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, > > slandering and wrong view, are eradicated by the path- > > consciousness of the ariyan who is sotåpanna. > Ken H:> This accounts for the Sotapanna's inability to break the > first four precepts but isn't he also incapable of > breaking the fifth (intoxicants)? ..... This is right, but the point was that breaking the fifth precept is not akusala kamma-patha by itself. This is why K.Sujin’s comment about the intentions were relevant, I think. ..... > It seems to me that the fifth precept is basically about > livelihood. A worldling is capable of wrong view; in > other words, of refusing to heed the Buddha's teaching. > By taking intoxicants, he can live in a way that ensures > heedlessness. > > On the other hand, a Sotapanna is incapable of wilful > heedlessness. This manifests in his lifestyle as an > inability to consume intoxicants. (?) But other kilesas > continue to cause heedlessness and so he can live as a > householder in much the same way as a worldling can. .... As Nina mentioned, in the commentary to the ‘Minor Readings’ (Khuddakapaa.tha), we read about how heedlessness can lead to the breaking of other precepts. It always depends on the intention. I don’t think any of us doubt the value of abstention from the consuming of intoxicants in general. In the Minor Readigs, the Ten Training Precepts,46, we read: “The fruits of abstention from the opportunity-for-negligence-due-to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink are such things as swift recognition of past, future and present tasks to be done, constant establishment of mindfulness, freedom from madness, possession of knowledge, non-procrastination, non-stupidity, non-drivellingness, non-intoxication, non-negligence, non-confusion, non-timorousness, non-prsumption, unenviousness, truthfulness, freedom from malicious and harsh speech and from gossip, freedom from dullness both night and day, gratitude, gratefulness, unavariciousness, liberality, virtuousness, rectitude, unangriness, possession of conscience, possession of shame, rectitude of view, great understanding, wisdom, learnedness, skill in (distinguishing) good from harm, and so on.” ..... Most of us have enough problems in these areas already;-) I thought Howard’s comments were very wise and compassionate in this regard. I tend to have aversion and be critical when I’m around others who are drinking alcohol, but really it’s a time to develop metta and understanding too. We all have different ‘weaknesses’ and as in the case of Sarakani who became a sotapanna in spite of having taken strong drink shortly beforehand, we never know when seeds for wisdom will bring results. On the question of the breach of the Vinaya rules for monks and the training rules for lay people which Nina distinguished, we also read this in The Minor Readings, same ch,19: “ ‘By breach’: in the case of novices, when one (training precept) is broken, all are broken; for they are to novices as the Defeats (see Vin,iii,1f)[are to bhikkhus]; but responsibility for action resides only in the one actually transgressed. In the case of householders, when one is broken then only that one is broken, and consequently the fivefoldness of their virtue becomes effective again as soon as that one alone is reundertaken.” ..... In a post to Larry, Christine was also giving some details about killing and the size of living beings as a factor. I think the effort or ‘magnitude of means’ involved refers to the mental effort, not the physical effort, Chris. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20674 With regard to stealing, lying, and sexual misconduct, I think we’ve seen in other references that the person ‘harmed’ may also be a factor in the same way. Rob M wrote many helpful comments and details with regard to sexual misconduct. He mentioned how “the degree of moral gravity in the offense is determined by the force of the lust motivating the action and the qualities of the person about whom the transgression is committed. the most serious violations are incest and the rape of an Arahant.” http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24628 (He didn’t give a reference (??), but it sounds logical to me). Look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 25364 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Larry, --- Larry wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > >_(the Udana, Enlightenment Ch, 10 with Bahiya, Masefield trans): > > The Buddha addressed Bahiya:" Therefore, Bahiya, you should train > yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, > that with respect to the heard.... > > Hi Sarah & Ken, > > We could also say with respect to the seen there will be all the > universal cetasikas. It just depends on what you mean by "be". .... I understand it to mean that with regard to what is seen, i.e visible object, only visible object is experienced. No other world appears at the moment of seeing. There is no sound, no concept or anything else appearing. Of course the universal cetasikas accompany the ‘experiencing’ at this and all other moments. As for “be”, I understand it to mean “be known” or “understood”. Comments? Metta, Sarah ==== 25365 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] week 5 (Jul 7 02) no 6 Hi Jaran, Howard, Nori & All, Jaran, good to ‘see’you and thanks for the good reminders you posted from discussions with A.Sujin. These ones in particular relate to recent discussions I’ve been having with Howard & Nori, I think. So I’ll just requote a relevant part, expressed more clearly imho, and look forward to any further comments. ‘Everything daily’ - even fleeing burning houses or bullets as I understand;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Jaran - I liked the other extract too.Thx for sharing;-) ===== A.Sujin (Jaran’s translation): “We often talk about satipatthana, vipassana ~na.na, lokutara citta etc. We often forget or ignore that there is important understanding in the level before arising of satipatthana. First of all, we don't have to think whether or not sati will arise. But it is far more important to understand that everything daily is dhamma, reality, element that exist without anyone's creation. Nobody can create, and we cannot cause them to happen. As we are thinking of creating some dhamma or causing them to arise, a dhamma has already arisen. However, when the dhamma arise, we are not aware and don't understand its characteristics because we are busy hoping for something else to arise or trying to make something else arise. For example, when we talk about the moment of seeing being dhamma, which is ordinary. Sacca ~na.na understands firmly that this seeing is anatta and has arisen. The nature of dhamma, all realities, are is simply this way: they are anatta, so noone can create and control. They always appear as they arise, and it's up to the level of understanding to understand and be aware of their characteristics and nature. Now dhamma has arisen but if satipatthana does not arise, there won't be true understanding of characteristics of that dhamma. This is understanding in sacca ~na.na level. One should firmly understand (have the knowledge of) the nature of dhamma and sati, etc, in the intellectual level instead of attempting to 'do' something or 'make' something happen." [snip, but well worth reading the rest of the original post a few times I think] ==================== 25366 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali and Sanskrit Hi Connie & All, --- connie wrote: > If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I think seeing both spellings would > be useful. Kinda like seeing an acceptable and preferred spelling in an > English dictionary. > peace, .... I think we’ve all come to the same conclusion too. Would you or anyone else like to volunteer (as a Pali glossary reviser) to add the preferred spelling in brackets after each Pali word in the glossary in ‘files’ as the mods are all rather busy? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms If anyone has the time, pls let Kom or me know to save doubling up on the work. There’d be no hurry - a few words at a time would be fine. Metta, Sarah ===== 25367 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi, Ken H - In a message dated 9/17/03 12:20:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > However, among the potential objects of citta are the previous citta > and cetasikas. They have just fallen away but they can still be > experienced perfectly clearly (just as a resonating gong can still be > heard). So the vedana that experiences any of the tongue-door or > mind-door objects can, itself, be experienced and thought about. Then > the concept might become, "I am enjoying this ice cream." > ========================== Your "resonating gong" as metaphor for the remnants of the just-fallen-away citta and cetasikas works well for what I have in mind when I use the expression "fresh memory". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25368 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:34am Subject: Re: Training Precepts Dear Sarah, RobM, Nina, Howard, Christine, Ken H and Dhamma Friends, There had been many many Buddhas. Time factor of Parinibbana of a Buddha and arising of next Buddha is immence. Unimaginably long. As far as we can reach accoding to History even in this earth, specific time speaks its existence and the existences differ each other. Within 2000 years, sexual orientation and view on it has changed a lot. This is time factor. In the first 1000, even though there might be abnormal sexual orientation, it was not so prevalent as today. Today, some laws have to be passed. In the indefinite past, there might have been a time when there is no gay. This can be reasoned out. Regarding intoxicants, there also was a time when there was not any intoxicant ( used as recreational purposes ). At that particular time no one will drink alcohol as there might not have any form of alcohol. Even if alcohol existed, as there was no previous practice, no one would drink that strange smelling liquid. Before the era of telling lies, those who heard telling lies could not understand what was the matter. Before that era, no one would try to tell lies. And there are many other things to discuss on time factors. When our Buddha Gotama arose as Buddha and soon followed by arising of Arahats, The Buddha had not passed any Vinaya in His early time. Because it was not needed at that time as all members of Sangha were Arahats and all bhikkhus were Arahats. But as time passed by The Buddha had to pass down Vinaya by using Buddha authority. Some Buddha even did not lay down any Vinaya as all members of his followers including Sangha and all Puthujana people did not do any ill-things and they would not do as long as that Buddha stayed. All Sammasambuddha do have Sabbannuta Nana. All Sammasambuddhas are the same in terms of Dhamma. But time factor is not the same. Vinayawise, Vinaya in Buddha Gotama time are the greatest in number. ( I apologise my not being able to show evidence for this ). Among Sila matter, drinking alcohol per se is not an Akusala as discussed in the previous post of this thread. But time factor speaks and other factors like anatomy and physiology of Manussa at particular time. At some time, intoxicant may rapidly change the mind of drinkers and removes their controls over things. But at some time drinking alcohol will not have any problem. Main things is to advance forward in achievement of Dhamma. If intoxicant hinders it, then it should be totally avoided. If it does not hinder the practice like very very small amount of alcohol in some food and some medicine, the practitioner of Dhamma should not have any Kukkucca on that food and medicine. May you all have a good insight into Dhamma. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H, Christine, RobM, Nina, Howard & All, > > I just have a few comments to add on this thread from a few posts written: > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > Nina:> > ... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which > Look forward to any further comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 25369 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: Jim's wasps and diary. Dear Jim, do not answer me, but I had a good laugh. Perhaps you could consider a diary during the time of your seclusion. We have a right to know whether the wasps went indeed into hibernation. I was very intrigued by the story about the wasps. Best wishes, Nina. op 17-09-2003 04:44 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > I think you did a good job at keeping it short this time but I noticed > my name kept showing up in your other recent posts as if it were > another way for you to sneak in other topics of interest for me to > think about and comment on. :-) 25370 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi Larry op 17-09-2003 01:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Can it happen that gotrabu consciousness directly understands nibbana > but the defilements fail to permanently cease, lokuttara doesn't arise, > and the mundane, defiled state resumes? N: No. The process during which the lokuttara cittas will arise has already started, no way to stop it. Nina. 25371 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: correction in spelling Dear Sarah, I just heard that I made a mistake in spelling of Kaeng Krachan. I wrote: Kraeng Kacang. This for the archives: maybe you could substitute Kaeng Krachan in: Title:: Title, and Preface, at very beginning, second line. Last page: on our last morning in Kaeng Krachan... I wrote to Alan, Zolag web. If Jon has time would he share with us some meaning explanations in Parliement Sessions tapes? Or else jot down for me the dates of these tapes? Thank you, Nina. 25372 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 16, 17, 18, kosalla Hi Larry, op 17-09-2003 04:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w... > > Does kosalla (skill) mean "understanding" in this case, as in: > understanding improvement, understanding ruin, and understanding means? N: Yes. All the classifications in the Vis are about the many aspects of understanding. I should quote the Book of Analysis the Vis refers to in Vibhanga, Ch 16, para 771: As to proficiency in loss [ skill in ruin, detriment], it is said that wisdom understands these. We read at the end: The Dispeller of Delusion, the co. elaborates more on kosalla, and its text is almost the same as the Tiika of the Vis. I shall use it in my transl, but I need time now. Nina. 25373 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi Howard, Howard quotes: >> N: pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna taking >> the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. > Howard: > Okay. I guess one might say this is the "conventional path". N: Why conventional? The pathfators have to be developed together. H: quotes N: All eight path-factors accompany this citta. > > Howard: > Not so clear - at least not to me. On the face of it, and I don't know > how else to properly understand these - right speech, right action and right > livelihood strike me not as cetasikas, but as conventional activities that are > both continuing and repeating. The notion of these occuring as factors of a > mind-moment makes no sense to me. Certainly the *inclination* to such > activities may occur, but the *inclination* to right livelihood, for example, > is not > the same as right livelihood. N: These three are particular cetasikas, virati cetasikas, the abstinences which each have their own function. When mundane they arise one at a time, depending on the occasion. These occasions are situations involving people and things. Like: abstaining from killing a living being. It is actually the same as metta: this is a cetasika, adosa, and has as object a living being. But it is still a cetasika. Right livelihood: a virati cetasika abstains from wrong livelihood at certain moments. When lokuttara citta arises the object of the three abstinences is not a person, it is nibbana. The conditions for wrong speech, action, livelihood are cut off, in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. Thus: nibbana is experienced and conditions for akusala are eradicated. At the same time. >H: quotes N:The Path is supramundane, lokuttara, that> >> is, citta and cetasikas are lokuttara. >> Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta: this is the result, vipaka, of the >> magga-citta, succeeding immediately upon the path-consciousness. This never >> happens in the case of the sense-sphere cittas. The fruition-consciousness >> experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that >> stage, have been already eradicated by the magga-citta. >> > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My question here is twofold: > > 1) Does this say that fruition consciousness has multiple objects? It > sounds that way, but, of course, cannot be so. N: The Path-consciousness eradicates defilements and experiences nibbana. Fruition is like true peace after the defilements have been eradicated. It experiences nibbana. H: 2) How does one experience now-nonexistent defilements? Is it the > memory of them that is experienced, or the knowledge of the fact of their > having > ceased? N: I would think the last one, but is it OK not to be so sure, as you said to Larry? The Vis. explains in different contexts that multiple functions are possible. Nina. 25374 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jim's wasps and diary. Dear Nina, Glad you got a good laugh out of it. :-) I probably won't be keeping a diary as I was never one for keeping one, but will remember to take note of important events and relate some of the highlights later on. I don't think I'll be disconnecting the phone line after all but will do my best to stay in seclusion from about mid-Oct. to mid-Dec. I'll also be away for two weeks in early Oct. I haven't had any more encounters with the wasps. I'm pretty much leaving it up to Mother Nature to take care of them as none of the worker wasps will survive the winter and the nest is not reused from what I read. When it freezes up I'll look under the cottage for a nest. The latest thing to worry about is Hurricane Isabel which is about to strike the US eastern seaboard. I have been following the storm's projected track and its centre is due to past close by just to the east of me Friday evening. They think it could bring a lot of rain, flooding, and wind. I'm a little apprehensive about my trees. I think Rob Ep in the Washington area will also be affected. The last time we had a hurricane like this in Ontario was in 1954. If you don't hear from me for a long time after Friday, you'll know why. I might be too busy gathering up pieces of my cottage and trying to rescue my Pali books. :-) With fingers crossed, Jim > Dear Jim, do not answer me, but I had a good laugh. Perhaps you could > consider a diary during the time of your seclusion. We have a right to know > whether the wasps went indeed into hibernation. I was very intrigued by the > story about the wasps. > Best wishes, > Nina. 25375 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/17/03 1:28:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Howard quotes: > >>N: pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna > taking > >>the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. > >Howard: > >Okay. I guess one might say this is the "conventional path". > N: Why conventional? The pathfators have to be developed together. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, I seem to have misunderstood what was being driven at. ------------------------------------------- > > H: quotes N: All eight path-factors accompany this citta. > > > >Howard: > >Not so clear - at least not to me. On the face of it, and I don't know > >how else to properly understand these - right speech, right action and > right > >livelihood strike me not as cetasikas, but as conventional activities that > are > >both continuing and repeating. The notion of these occuring as factors of a > >mind-moment makes no sense to me. Certainly the *inclination* to such > >activities may occur, but the *inclination* to right livelihood, for > example, > >is not > >the same as right livelihood. > N: These three are particular cetasikas, virati cetasikas, the abstinences > which each have their own function. When mundane they arise one at a time, > depending on the occasion. These occasions are situations involving people > and things. Like: abstaining from killing a living being. > It is actually the same as metta: this is a cetasika, adosa, and has as > object a living being. But it is still a cetasika. Right livelihood: a > virati cetasika abstains from wrong livelihood at certain moments. > When lokuttara citta arises the object of the three abstinences is not a > person, it is nibbana. The conditions for wrong speech, action, livelihood > are cut off, in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. > Thus: nibbana is experienced and conditions for akusala are eradicated. At > the same time. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, okay. What you describe here seem to be "mind movements" quite like intentions/inclinations/acts of volition. But, in any case, this sense of 'right livelihood' appears to be radically differnt from what the Buddha gives in the suttas, where lists of wrong choices of livelihood are given. Nowhere have I come across anything like this in the suttas. Is it not possible that, relative to the suttas, the Abhidhamma is being "innovative" here, contrary to the idea expressed by some that there is nothing in Abhidhamma does not already occur in the suttas? ------------------------------------------------- > >H: quotes N:The Path is supramundane, lokuttara, that> > >>is, citta and cetasikas are lokuttara. > >>Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta: this is the result, vipaka, of the > >>magga-citta, succeeding immediately upon the path-consciousness. This > never > >>happens in the case of the sense-sphere cittas. The fruition-consciousness > >>experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that > >>stage, have been already eradicated by the magga-citta. > >> > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >My question here is twofold: > > > >1) Does this say that fruition consciousness has multiple objects? It > >sounds that way, but, of course, cannot be so. > N: The Path-consciousness eradicates defilements and experiences nibbana. > Fruition is like true peace after the defilements have been eradicated. It > experiences nibbana. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, it is like a true peace. But I don't see how that answers the question about the assertion "The fruition-consciousness experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that stage ..." seeming to allowfor multiple objects for fruition consciousness. I apologize for pressing this, but I still find this issue unresolved. ------------------------------------------------------- > H: 2) How does one experience now-nonexistent defilements? Is it the > >memory of them that is experienced, or the knowledge of the fact of their > >having > >ceased? > N: I would think the last one, but is it OK not to be so sure, as you said > to Larry? > The Vis. explains in different contexts that multiple functions are > possible. > Nina. > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25376 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:27pm Subject: Melodies Hi, all - While riding to work today I listened to a piece for violin and orchestra on a classical-music radio station. It was exquisitely beautiful. I got to thinking: No sound-rupa that was the object of any particular mind-moment/citta was heard as beautiful. What was heard as beautiful was the violin-played melody, the patterned flow of sound. Yet, the patterned flow of sound was concept-only,with only the individual sound-events actually occurring and heard at any time, at least that is the Abhidhammic perspective on the matter. So, what exactly was it that was "beautiful"? It seems to me that during the course of the playing of the piece, the mind, specifically the constructive, its sankharic functions, based on the memory and recognition functions of sa~n~na, produced mental constructs that captured/encoded/represented sections of the piece, that these constructs were mind-door objects experienced as beautiful, and that these, in turn, were combined into higher-level constructs of the same sort as the listening continued. Just my thoughts on the matter. Comments anyone? With metta, Howard 25377 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Nina: "Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, when the duration of rupa is compared to that of citta. Or, counting three sub-moments of each citta as: arising moment, moments of presence and moment of falling away, rupa lasts as long as fiftyone submoments of citta." Hi Nina, In the above you are referring to the rupa that disturbs the bhavanga, not the rupa that impinges on the sensitive matter of the sense base, correct? Aren't these two different rupas? Larry 25378 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Melodies In music, what is beautiful? Hi Howard, Let's not talk about concepts. We could say the sound was good kamma result, being conventionally desirable. That desirableness is possibly due to identifying (by sa~n~na) the 19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas with the sound: faith, mindfulness, shame, fear of wrong, non-greed, non-hatred, neutrality of mind, tranquility of mental body, tranquility of consciousness, lightness of mental body, lightness of consciousness, malleability of mental body, malleability of consciousness, wieldiness of mental body, wieldiness of consciousness, proficiency of mental body, proficiency of consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude of consciousness. Or, maybe it just seemed fat and sweet. Whatever the qualities of beauty, they are patched onto the object by sa~n~na, I think. Larry 25379 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7, thinking --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jaran, > Thank you very much for these conversations, I keep them in my file. This > one about thinking is very important. dear Jaran, I join Nina here, and thank you for these conversations. Until I am reminded of this, again and again, I tend to forget how sutle the development of panna is. Sometimes I wonder why it took the Buddha such a long, long time to finally become the Buddha, and when I think about his qualities and am reminded how great his wisdom must have been, then I see that it is not an easy business to attain Nibbana. It is interesting to note that each time I listen to tapes that I brought back from T'land, I find something that I didn't hear before or that maybe I didn't understand, and now I do understand. I've also noted how much lobha I have for listening and reading and studying the Dhamma. I'm aware of thinking 'O, now I understand a little more, that's good, I getting better at this'!!! Lots of lobha and mana, but I guess they can be known for what they are too. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 25380 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Melodies Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/17/03 7:24:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > In music, what is beautiful? ------------------------------------------ Howard: As someone said ;-)), it's in the eye of the beholder! [Though I do think there are *some* objective measures for beauty (in terms of such things as symmetry). ----------------------------------------- > > Hi Howard, > > Let's not talk about concepts. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Buddha forbid! ;-) ------------------------------------------ We could say the sound was good kamma> > result, being conventionally desirable. That desirableness is possibly > due to identifying (by sa~n~na) the 19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas > with the sound: faith, mindfulness, shame, fear of wrong, non-greed, > non-hatred, neutrality of mind, tranquility of mental body, tranquility > of consciousness, lightness of mental body, lightness of consciousness, > malleability of mental body, malleability of consciousness, wieldiness > of mental body, wieldiness of consciousness, proficiency of mental body, > proficiency of consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude of > consciousness. Or, maybe it just seemed fat and sweet. > > Whatever the qualities of beauty, they are patched onto the object by > sa~n~na, I think. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I would agree with that. The question I posed, however, was in fact exactly what *is* the object. I do *not* think it is any one of the sound-rupas heard during the playing of the melody. It is, instead, a mind-construct (or several such) representing an entire patterned sequence of violin sounds. Call it a thought, or a concept, or whatever [neither 'thought' nor 'concept' seems adequate to me] , but it is something experienced, something that I am certain is a mental construct, and it is experienced *as* a beautiful, violin-rendered melody. Now, indeed, tranquillity and lightness are certainly characteristics of the appreciating mindstates resulting from hearing the melody - I agree with that. ------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25381 From: Seylan Bank- dbd (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Digest Number 1629 Message: 1 From: Sarah Subject: Re: question Hi Frank M, Welcome from another learning member of DSG. Hi Sarah, Thanks for the reminder: As a reminder to everyone, RobM has posted word files of the entire tidied up archives (almost to date) in the files for anyone who wishes to download, use these for a search or read through 'like a novel' on an aeroplane: True & Many many Merits to RobM, thereon. With metta, Sumane _______ 25382 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: Training Precepts Dear Sarah (and Nina), I think I understand. I've said that a lot lately and have been horribly wrong every time; but you and Nina are gradually getting the point across (I think). > breaking the fifth precept is not akusala kamma- > patha by itself. This is why K.Sujin's comment about > the intentions were relevant, The kamma-pathas ARE intention aren't they? But when you say,"breaking the fifth precept," you are talking about conventional reality. A person can break the fifth precept by drinking alcohol but there may be no serious intention (cetana, kamma-patha) involved. I assume the same applies to the other four precepts. OR, are you saying there is something special about the fifth precept? I ask that partly because the fifth precept doesn't seem to correspond to any one kamma-patha (as the other four do). Nina has said that drunkeness may lead to the breaking of the other four precepts. Did she mean that the fifth precept doesn't directly relate to any particular kamma-patha? Or, was she simply making the point that the precepts are concepts, not dhammas, and that different dhammas (different types of cetana), can be involved in each? Was I correct in assuming that the fifth precept is basically about the mental kamma-patha, wrong view? Thanks for your patience, Confused of Noosa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H, Christine, RobM, Nina, Howard & All, > > I just have a few comments to add on this thread from a few posts written: > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > 25383 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Dear Frank, op 16-09-2003 19:43 schreef Frank op frankmatton@y...: > For example, suppose > I eat an ice cream. There will be a mind moment with the accompanying > vedana ("pleasant"). But I can also become aware that my experience > of an object is pleasant. So here the cetasika (vedana) itself is the > object and not that which experiences an object. But the object of > what? Of the citta which it assists? How can that be, since – as Nina > mentioned in her reply -- "citta and cetasikas experience the same > object" ? N: Ken explained very well with the simile of the gong. And indeed, we like pleasant feeling so much, we are attached to it. When we do a good deed, there are many different objects, also concepts of people and things. We think with kusala citta, and then we feel so happy about ourselves, another object again experienced by other cittas with lobha. There are so many cittas experienceing different objects, we cannot pinpoint them all. Nina. 25384 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma patha Dear Ken, op 17-09-2003 09:50 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > Even so, kusala cittas have one of the three wholesome > hetus predominating haven't they? A moment of metta is > different from a moment of dana, for example. N: When we use the word predominating, I think of predominance condition, but that is very precise. I would not put it that way. Metta and dana are different, but with metta there is alobha and adosa. You do not think of yourself, and you are kind. Dana: includes so many aspects, even giving other beings the opportunity to live in peace: abstaining from killing those wasps. (these wasps ;-) ) Also forgiving is a kind of dana. There is also metta. Nina. 25385 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Chittapala and simply living. Dear Christine, op 17-09-2003 10:46 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Btw, Chris, you mentioned the Jivaka sutta (On Being a Lay Follower) and > mentioned you were looking at the Pali too;-) Would you kindly share some > of the sutta and your study and reflections? I was also glad Derek helped > untangle the different numbering systems. N: Yes, I would like to see it too, the more Pali the better. Nina 25386 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi Howard, ------------ > Your "resonating gong" as metaphor for the remnants of the > just-fallen-away citta and cetasikas works well for what I have in mind when I use the > expression "fresh memory". ------------- Thanks, that's encouraging, I don't remember where my metaphor came from -- it was not original. No one has gainsaid our explanations so we may be on a winner. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25387 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi Howard and Nina, Woops, as I spoke I didn't realise that Nina had commented. Sorry Nina, I didn't mean to ignore you. I am glad that you agree with our explanations. Kind regrds, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > ------------ > > Your "resonating gong" as metaphor for the remnants of the > > just-fallen-away citta and cetasikas works well for what I have in > mind when I use the > > expression "fresh memory". > ------------- > > Thanks, that's encouraging, I don't remember where my metaphor came > from -- it was not original. > > No one has gainsaid our explanations so we may be on a winner. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 25388 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] week 5 (Jul 7 02) no 6 Dear Sarah: > `Everything daily' - even fleeing burning houses or bullets as I > understand;-) Thank you for this concise and deep statement..easy for me to remember. It's one of the best reminder for me to 'flee the burning house'. Best Regards, jaran 25389 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:25pm Subject: Re: Melodies Hi Howard, ------------ > It seems to me that during the course of the playing of > the piece, the mind, specifically the constructive, its > sankharic functions, based on the memory and > recognition functions of sa~n~na, produced mental > constructs that captured/encoded/represented sections > of the piece, that these constructs were mind-door > objects experienced as beautiful, ------------- That sounds right to me. Most people would agree that the music was beautiful. For the protagonist in "A Clockwork Orange," however, music by Beethoven was torture; it all depends on what the mind associates with past, similar experiences. -------------- > and that these, in turn, were combined into higher- > level constructs of the same sort as the listening > continued -------------- There, I couldn't begin to guess. Can one "higher-level" concept take in many parts of the music -- a whole symphony even -- or are there just a lot of 'lower level' concepts that give that impression? For example, we may be thinking, these notes cleverly mimic notes that were played earlier but while we are thinking that, is there still a concept of any of those notes or is there just "there is similarity?" I have to stop thinking about this, my brain hurts. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25390 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 0:42am Subject: week 5 (Jul 7 02) No 8 Q: One more observation from me, our thinking is purely synthetic, all stories. ASujin: Yes, it's all 'imaginary', illusion before it's known as thinking... Q: ...when we think [about dhamma] that this is lobha, that is something else, we often overlook and forget that it is just thinking. ASujin: Can you see how profound, how intricate, how subtle thinking and the mind is? [It will continue to be this way] Until the mind is known as naama, and its arising and falling away are directly experienced at the level of udayappaya ~na.na. Q: In stead of understanding the lakkha.na (charateristics), the mind almost goes directly the 'story' of dhamma. ASujin: ...until the sacca ~na.na firmly takes root. [this indicates how important listening to right dhamma is as sacca ~na.na, right understanding, develops from meeting right individuals and dhamma friends, attentive listening, and critical analysis of dhamma...among other things] Q: [for me] there is still very little understanding.. ASujin: Yes. At this moment, there seems to be our Self that is craving for higher level of panna [that can directly experience and truly understand the nature of dhamma]. But panna must develop in their order: if satipatthana does not begin to arise, there will not be the distinction of naama and ruupa through the mind-door [naama- ruupa-pariccheda~na.na]. It all starts from the arising of sati to be aware of lakkha.na of one dhamma arising *now*. It happens naturally, nothing out of ordinary. Like it or not, panna will arise [to truely experience the actual dhamma] corresponding to our understanding. And panna can develop and arise more often. In other words, it is getting more accustomed to, getting used to knowing the characteristics of dhamma, slowly, little by little. The important thing is that we don't let lobha lead us out of the 'path' to wrong practices. For a long time, we have been [, are, and still will be] under the influence of lobha. We do everything that lobha tells us to do. Because of lobha, we do something else and not to be aware of the dhamma that has arisen now. Because we misunderstand that doing something else will lead to true understanding. But this is impossible because we are ignoring the dhamma. Otherwise, it is not said that 'the is only one way' (ekaayanomaggo): the eight-fold path. It must be consistent with our understanding in the level of listening. And because this [satipatthana] is the only way, other moments [that are not satipatthana] are only thinking of dhamma, and not experiencing the characteristics of dhamma [and therefore never lead to right understanding]. But with the right understanding, one day, there will [eventually] be the true undertanding of lakkha.na of dhamma [by satipatthana, and not thinking of dhamma]. Q: Yes. But we almost always think, think and think..until we are tired and fall asleep. ASujin: Yes. And it will continue this way. But when there is a brief moment of sati, it will see the value [of sati] and begin to develop the right understanding. Q: Unfortunately, it is so rare... ASujin: Rarity is a good indication [reminder] of how long we have been in the va.t.ta [cycle of birth and death] without satipa.t.thana. Q. Thank you. 25391 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7, thinking Dear Nina: > easy: O yes, now I am thinking. But how far off we are! Good to be reminded. In deed, how far off we are! It is nice to have it pointed out. We can only hope for reminders. :-) Best Regards, jaran 25392 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7, thinking Dear Azita: > It is interesting to note that each time I listen to tapes that I > brought back from T'land, I find something that I didn't hear before > or that maybe I didn't understand, and now I do understand. May I say that it also happens to me all the time, even with some tapes we have already played countless times. > I've also noted how much lobha I have for listening and reading > and studying the Dhamma. I'm aware of thinking 'O, now I understand > a little more, that's good, I getting better at this'!!! > Lots of lobha and mana, but I guess they can be known for what they > are too. Me, too. (sorry Sarah, for a 'me too' message ;-)). Lobha is also address in this session (week 5 (jul 7 02) no 8). Best Regards, jaran 25393 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Victor, Good to talk to you again and thank you for considering what I write;-) You raise some very good points which I’m glad to reflect on further. I think we’re discussing sakkaya ditthi (personality or self views) versus ditthi (wrong views) in general. All of these are eradicated by the sotapanna. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > As I understand it: > Personality view is not the view that "people actually exist". > However, both the views "people actually exist" and "people actually > don't exist" are speculative views, just like the views "there is > self" and "there is no self." [..] .... I understand your point. I believe you are suggesting that the self views or views that “people actually exist” do not strictly speaking fall under the sakkaya ditthi category, but under other speculative views. ..... > What are personality views? They are views identifying oneself with > the conditioned, or delineation of what one is in terms of the > conditioned, such as the five aggregates or six sense bases. A > variety of personality views are formulated or listed in > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 > Samanupassana Sutta > Assumptions > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html .... The sutta continues with: "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.' .... In other words, the specific self/personality views you mention lead to an idea of ‘people actually existing’, as I read it and a way of regarding the world with wrong views (di.t.thisamanupassanaa) . In another sutta in SN, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn41-003.html We read that all speculative (wrong) views depend on self/personality views: "Venerable sir, concerning the various views that arise in the world -- 'The cosmos is eternal' or 'The cosmos isn't eternal'; 'The cosmos is finite' or 'The cosmos is infinite'; 'The soul and the body are the same' or 'The soul is one thing, the body another'; 'A Tathagata exists after death' or 'A Tathagata doesn't exist after death' or 'A Tathagata both exists & doesn't exist after death' or 'A Tathagata neither exists nor doesn't exist after death'; these along with the sixty-two views mentioned in the Brahmajala [DN 1] -- when what is present do these views come into being, and when what is absent do they not come into being?" [...] "Concerning the various views that arise in the world, householder... when self-identity view [sakkaaya-di.t.thi] is present, these views come into being; when self-identity view is absent, they don't come into being." ***** In the original sutta quoted by Toby, the Khemaka sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html the question being considered was with regard to the use or concept of self at times of conceit versus times of self view and we discussed how the object is quite different and they cannot arise together. Whereas the sotapanna has no more wrong views of any kind, conceit may continue to arise until arahantship. So, perhaps it’s enough to say that all wrong views depend on sakkaya ditthi and these are all eradicated when the characteristic of anatta is fully realized and nibbana experienced at the first stage of enlightenment? The following sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html also distingushes between self views or ‘regarding with views’ (di.t.thisamanupassanaa) and conceit. B.Bodhi gives a useful footnote on this (61), p.1057, but I digress. I would, however, like to quote B.Bodhi from his introduction (p7) to the Brahmajala sutta, BPS, because I believe these comments are relevant to the comments so far about all (wrong) speculative views being based on self views: ..... “The clinging to being issues in a ‘personality view’ (sakkaayadi.t.thi) affirming the presence of an abiding self in the pyschophysical organism in one of twenty ways: as identical with, possessing, contained within or containing one or another of the five aggregates that constitute the individual personality - material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Arisen already at the pre-reflective level, this view in turn becomes the basis for latter reflective interpretations of existence, crystallizing into the sixty-two views of the sutta. As it is explained: “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world, ...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist” (S 1V 7.3). “Since the notion of selfhood is accepted uncritically at the level of ordinary experience, higher attainments in meditation, as the Brahmajala shows, will not suffice to eliminate the notion but will only reinforce it by providing apparent verification of the self originally presupposed at the outset of practice. It is as if one were to lead a man wearing red-tinted glasses from a small room to an open field. The change of scene will not alter the colour of his vision, for as long as he is wearing red glasses everything he sees will be coloured red.” ***** Nyantiloka’s dictionary also has a useful section under ‘Di.t.thi’ http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/ditthi.htm I’m not sure if you will agree with the quotes from it, Victor, which I’ll add after signing off. As discussed, I think all wrong views are based on self views. Only when these views have been eradicated can other defilements be eradicated and the precepts followed perfectly and so on. I also recommend the chapter on Wrong View in ‘Cetasikas’ by Nina to be found at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Look forward to any comments. Metta, Sarah ===== “Numerous speculative opinions and theories, which at all times have influenced and still are influencing mankind, are quoted in the sutta-texts. Amongst them, however, the wrong view which everywhere, and at all times, has most misled and deluded mankind is the personality-belief, the ego-illusion. This personality-belief (sakkáya-ditthi), or ego-illusion (atta-ditthi), is of 2 kinds: eternity-belief and annihilation-belief. Eternity-belief (sassata-ditthi) is the belief in the existence of a persisting ego-entity, soul or personality, existing independently of those physical and mental processes that constitute life and continuing even after death. Annihilation-belief (uccheda-ditthi), on the other hand, is the belief in the existence of an ego-entity or personality as being more or less identical with those physical and mental processes, and which therefore, at the dissolution at death, will come to be annihilated. - For the 20 kinds of personality-belief, see sakkáya-ditthi. Now, the Buddha neither teaches a personality which will continue after death, nor does he teach a personality which will be annihilated at death, but he shows us that 'personality', 'ego', 'individual', 'man', etc., are nothing but mere conventional designations (vohára-vacana) and that in the ultimate sense (s. paramattha-sacca) there is only this self-consuming process of physical and mental phenomena which continually arise and again disappear immediately.” ***** 25394 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] correction in spelling Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I just heard that I made a mistake in spelling of Kaeng Krachan. I > wrote: > Kraeng Kacang. .... Thx for telling me this. Originally, Jon told me the correct spelling, but then I changed to your wrong spelling. Now I’ll change back again;-) On a technical point, we can’t change anything in the archives (luckily, otherwise it would be a full-time job correcting my mistakes;-)). Everyone understands that a discussion list and its archives are not edited in anyway. When RobM saved the archives onto files, he wrote a software program (all his holiday time I think) to do this. The cleaning up I referred to were instructions relating to deleting all yahoo ads, yahoo blurb of any kind (hope they’re not reading this;-)), extra space and one or two other things. No text was or is changed in anyway. It’s like a ‘live’ discussion in this regard. If any letters from any discussion list, such as your KK series, are put onto any websites, then I think as a matter of courtesy the poster should be asked and given a chance to make any corrections. I think you’ve also made it clear that Zolag always has the latest corrected editions of any of your books or articles and that other sites or publications should always use these copies. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I’m just mentioning this here as you asked me before to pass this on to RobM or others concerned. So, if you just give the corrections to Alan and others know to use these versions, it should be fine. I know you’re happy for anyone to include them. > If Jon has time would he share with us some meaning explanations in > Parliement Sessions tapes? Or else jot down for me the dates of these > tapes? .... I think he has lots and lots on his i-pod which he listens to when we’re out walking. Perhaps this weekend, he’ll be able to add more - his boss is away and he’s pretty busy these days/weeks - lots of looong meetings and law drafting. We mostly communicate by cryptic emails;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 25395 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:18am Subject: Hi Sumane (& RobM)! Hi Sumane (& RobM), Good to hear from you and to know you're reading the posts;-) If lurkers just let us know once in a while, it's always good to hear this. --- "Seylan Bank- dbd (Sumane Rathnasuriya)" wrote: > > As a reminder to everyone, RobM has posted word files of the entire > tidied > up archives (almost to date) in the files for anyone who wishes to > download, use these for a search or read through 'like a novel' on an > aeroplane: > > True & Many many Merits to RobM, thereon. .... I know RobM will be glad to read your comment. He was wondering how many people were making use of these files and of course we had no idea. Rob, another member recently expressed an interest in your power point Abhidhamma slides as well. The series on list seems to have come to an abrupt halt, but I expect you're busy travelling. Metta, Sarah ===== 25396 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:24am Subject: Fifth Precept Hello Sarah, Nina and all, I was interested in the Jivaka sutta because of the discussion about the fifth precept. It seemed that some members thought that the precept that says to abstain from alcohol didn't really mean 'nil' intake. The sutta says (in part): "Jivaka, when the lay disciple abstains from destroying living things, taking the not given, from sexual misconduct, from telling lies, from taking intoxicated and brewed drinks, with this much he becomes virtuous" "Yato kho jãvaka, upàsako pàõàtipàtà pañivirato hoti, adinnàdànà pañivirato hoti, kàmesu micchàcàrà pañivirato hoti, musàvàdà pañivirato hoti, suràmerayamajjapamàdaññhànà pañivirato hoti. Ettàvatà kho jãvaka, upàsako sãlavà hotãti." Does 'pañivirato' mean 'abstain'? And does 'abstain' mean 'to forbear or refrain voluntarily, and especially from an indulgence of the passions or appetites'? The same word is used for all the precepts. I wondered, therefore, if it can be disregarded to some extent for the fifth precept - why not for the other four? I don't understand why moderate daily intake of alcohol is O.K., but moderate daily killing, theft, lying, and sexual misconduct isn't suggested as O.K. also. metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, > op 17-09-2003 10:46 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > Btw, Chris, you mentioned the Jivaka sutta (On Being a Lay Follower) and > > mentioned you were looking at the Pali too;-) Would you kindly share some > > of the sutta and your study and reflections? I was also glad Derek helped > > untangle the different numbering systems. > N: Yes, I would like to see it too, the more Pali the better. > Nina 25397 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, Jim: When you write (as you have before) about the difference between concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being an akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show the difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the Dhammasangani §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. Jon: Hmmm, puzzling. The list appears to be a list of the cetasikas accompanying a particular akusala citta. I have no idea which cetasika is represented by the term 'samatha' here. I've checked the relevant section of TPOP/Vism at XIV, 159-178 but cannot find any similar mention. The closest thing I can see is the factor of 'steadiness of consciousness' at 176, 177, described as a weak form of concentration (but the Pali is not given). Any thoughts? Jim: Also, on another point you make, I wonder if it's possible that jhaanic states could ever be classified as akusala since they are not classified as such in this category in Dhs. However, I can see how they could serve as conditions for future unwholesome states. Jon: As I understand it, where concentration is developed by virtue of the development of kusala citta, and is developed to the level of jhana, them the jhanic states will be kusala. In any other case, however, where concentration is developed it will not be kusala and so any ensuing jhanic state will also be akusala. I of course agree that the references we read in the texts are (almost) invariably to jhana that is kusala (the Buddha never encouraged the development of akusala of any kind under any circumstances). Because the context is so obvious it does not need to be stated. This however doesn't help the person who sets out to development concentration. How does he/she learn to distinguish kusala from subtle akusala? It cannot be determined simply by the nature of the object of his/her consciousness, nor by a comparison with his/her more 'normal' level of akusala; either of these would simply be an assumption/inference/deduction. My point is just that there is nothing in concentration itself that makes it more likely to be kusala that akusala (the factors that make up the jhana factors can arise with either kusala or akusala cittas). On the other hand, the strength of our accumulated tendencies is such that there is a much greater chance of the consciousness being akusala than kusala. There is considerable danger involved in getting it wrong! Jon 25398 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, > Jim > > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Jim: > When you write (as you have before) about the difference between > concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being an > akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show the > difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the Dhammasangani > §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as > wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist > Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. > > Jon: > Hmmm, puzzling. The list appears to be a list of the cetasikas > accompanying a particular akusala citta. I have no idea which > cetasika is represented by the term 'samatha' here. The translation of 'samatha' in the list is 'quiet'. This is explained at Dhs §395 in the Pali but the translation on p.95 refers you back to §375 on p. 92 which in turn refers back to §11 on p. 11 for 'self-collectedness' (cittass'ekaggataa). Instead of calling them cetasikas, the Dhs calls them aruupino (immaterial) dhammas in order to include citta. There are many more aruupino dhammas (about twice as many) as the standard list of 52 cetasikas. The Expositor explains how all these extra dhammas (except citta) are reduced to the list of 52. Samatha is included in the cetasika one-pointedness (ekaggataa). Buddhist Psychological Ethics is lacking in some respects eg. Mrs. Rhys Davids didn't bother to translate the last ka.n.da or chapter as she didn't think it had any value!! > I've checked the relevant section of TPOP/Vism at XIV, 159-178 but > cannot find any similar mention. The closest thing I can see is the > factor of 'steadiness of consciousness' at 176, 177, described as a > weak form of concentration (but the Pali is not given). 'steadiness of consciousness' (citta.t.thiti or cittassa .thiti) is also included in the description of one-pointedness of mind and samatha in the Dhs. Jim 25399 From: Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fifth Precept Hi, Christine (and Sarah and Nina) - In a message dated 9/18/03 5:24:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Sarah, Nina and all, > > I was interested in the Jivaka sutta because of the discussion about > the fifth precept. It seemed that some members thought that the > precept that says to abstain from alcohol didn't really mean 'nil' > intake. The sutta says (in part): "Jivaka, when the lay disciple > abstains from destroying living things, taking the not given, from > sexual misconduct, from telling lies, from taking intoxicated and > brewed drinks, with this much he becomes virtuous" > > "Yato kho jãvaka, upàsako pàõàtipàtà pañivirato hoti, adinnàdànà > pañivirato hoti, kàmesu micchàcàrà pañivirato hoti, musàvàdà > pañivirato hoti, suràmerayamajjapamàdaññhànà pañivirato hoti. > Ettàvatà kho jãvaka, upàsako sãlavà hotãti." > > Does 'pañivirato' mean 'abstain'? And does 'abstain' mean 'to > forbear or refrain voluntarily, and especially from an indulgence of > the passions or appetites'? The same word is used for all the > precepts. I wondered, therefore, if it can be disregarded to some > extent for the fifth precept - why not for the other four? I don't > understand why moderate daily intake of alcohol is O.K., but > moderate daily killing, theft, lying, and sexual misconduct isn't > suggested as O.K. also. > > metta and peace, > > Christine > ============================= If I may butt in: I agree with you, Christine - truly abiding by any of these precepts implies complete abstention. Partial abstention is a partial abiding. That may take two forms: 1) Moderating the degree to which one executes the action, but never or rarely abstaining from it entirely, and 2) Completely abstaining at some times at which there is the active inclination not indulge, but not abstaining at other times. (At the times that one actively abstains,, one is then abiding by the precept). The thing is, as I see it, a) none of us is perfect, and b) not all precept violations are equally serious. Common sense does play a role. Killing a scorpion that is about to sting a child is not as serious as as taking a drink or two before driving a car - in fact, my choice would be to take the bad kamma upon myself by killing that scorpion if there is no other recourse. [And I spend a lot of time escorting insects from the house. The other day, while I was taking a bath, a large black ant crawled to the shower top above my bath water, and then fell into the water. I scooped the ant out of the tub to save it from drowning, I got out of the tub, used a paper cup to capture the ant, and, after throwing on some clothes ;-), escorted the ant out of the house. Then I returned to the bath. So, normally, I will expend some effort to save life. But, in a context such as I indicated, I would reluctantly take a life.] And having a glass of wine with one's meal is not as serious a violation as, for example, lying for monetary gain - nowhere *nearly* as serious. We all violate one precept or another, in some way or other, to some degree or other, at some time or other, not being ariyans. We should, of course, attempt do our best, but I think we should be moderate in our judging how others do - and even not be too tough on ourselves. It was Barry Goldwater who said, and was roundly chastised for saying, "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice". I think he was right in saying this, but not if "extremism" implies obsession. To be obsessive is a form of grasping and excess, I believe. I think we must be firm in our efforts, but with an ease of mind. I rush to interject that I ABSOLUTELY DON'T mean that you are being obsessive about the precepts - in fact I think you are NOT; you are just properly and usefully raising the issue of exactly what it means to abide by a precept, and I'm glad you raised this issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25400 From: Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi, Jon (and Jim) - In a message dated 9/18/03 7:20:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Jim > > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: >Hi Jon, > > Jim: > When you write (as you have before) about the difference between > concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being an > akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show the > difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the Dhammasangani > §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as > wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist > Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. > > Jon: > Hmmm, puzzling. The list appears to be a list of the cetasikas > accompanying a particular akusala citta. I have no idea which > cetasika is represented by the term 'samatha' here. > =========================== Lists aside, wouldn't it be appropriate to say that while Jeffrey Dahmer was enjoying a large, satisfying dinner, his calm mindstates were akusala? ;-) The point, it seems to me, is that evil actions can instill delightful calm in some people, and that calm is certainly unwholesome. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25401 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:38am Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Dear Jim, Sarah and all How are you? Jim wrote: "I think it's much better to study the teachings in the Buddha's own language. Recently, I've been thinking of translations as being counterfeits. They should never be taken as equivalents of the original. I never did put much faith in translations and I will probably never be a translator myself. It's a good thing that the Pali has been kept alive and well. Think of how much worse off we'd all be if there had been a dominant mindset that considered translations to be exact equivalents of the originals and the Pali had been discarded and obliterated many centuries ago." Although I do not have as strong a view as Jim on translations, I do have similar view on preferableness of reading in the original Pali language. Here are my attitudes and experiences in learning foreign languages. Stage One When I became serious about mastering English language as a teenager, I have had very strange attitudes regarding dictionaries. They are as follows. 1. Get rid of the English-Myanmar Dictionaries as soon as possible. 2. Develop the ability to use English-English Dictionaries only - as soon as possible. 3. If you cannot use English-English Dictionaries, you will never understand English, let alone master it. Nobody has taught me to get the above attitudes. They just happened to me naturally. With those attitudes, I, as a teenager, began to attack the problem of putting English-English dictionaries under my control - like a lunatic. Stage Two When I came to Australia in 1980 as an immigrant, I came to develop the next very important attiudes, which came to me naturally as well. 1. Get rid of the habit of MENTALLY translating English into my native language, Myanmar. 2. Develop the ability to understand and enjoy English as native speakers of English would. 3. Use English like native speakers do - speak, read, write and dream in English. The above atitudes are also transferred to dealing with Pali language. Needless to say, I find it most enjoyable to read Pali like a native speaker would. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 25402 From: Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fifth Precept Hi again - In a message dated 9/18/03 10:28:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... miswrites: > 2) > Completely abstaining at some times at which there is the active inclination > not > indulge, but not abstaining at other times. ========================= I meant to write "to indulge" where I wrote "not indulge". Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25403 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:06am Subject: kosalla and language. Dear Mike, as to your question about kusala and kosalla, yes, PED gives for kosalla: it is derived from kusala. Translates it as proficiency. As we have seen it classified in Vis it is understanding, a certain aspect of it. Kusala: see Expositor I, p. 83, wholesomeness, faultlessness, and accomplishment by skill. It is translated among others as skillfulness. Looking again at Expositor, so many details I skipped before, but now I have more interest after our studies of Vis. and Tiika. A new subject that strikes me: about language, nirutti. This is because Jim spoke about it. There is a lot about it in the Atthasalini. I try to understand the way of thinking of the ancients about grammar and language and also nomenclature. The name arises with a reality like feeling? (Under nama and namati.) Even an unknown tree in the forest has a name. I used to skip it. But there is more to it. Nirutti is among the meanings of dhamma, it is a dhamma. Nina. 25404 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine, (Howard and all), I have no answers, just more questions: By their nature, rules of training potentially give a false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. What is the reason for of all this 'acting out?' Whatever the reason for it, acting-out should be known for what it is. When we worldlings make a show of not killing an insect, let's not kid ourselves that we wouldn't kill our own next-of-kin if the required conditions were to arise. Genuine abstention is infinitely more praiseworthy than any ritualistic precept-keeping. When we abstain with kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have even thought about it. The sentiments that automatically follow it are unlikely to be, "I obey the precepts" (though they might be). I think they are much more likely to be, "How could I possibly kill a living creature?" (The answer of course is, 'conditionality.') Kind regards, Ken H 25405 From: Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 9/18/03 7:43:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Christine, (Howard and all), > > I have no answers, just more questions: > > By their nature, rules of training potentially give a > false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen > who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who > are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks > who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: This is an interesting observation, Ken. It reminds me of (is it St. Augustine's?) "Imitation of Christ" and Judaism's "Be holy, for I, the Eternal, thy God, am holy." -------------------------------------------- > What is the reason for of all this 'acting out?' > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Possibly, acting "as if" tends to cultivate the actuality. --------------------------------------------- Whatever the reason for it, acting-out should be known> > for what it is. When we worldlings make a show of not > killing an insect, let's not kid ourselves that we > wouldn't kill our own next-of-kin if the required > conditions were to arise. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with this. We may think not, yet we don't know all the conditions that might arise. ------------------------------------------- > > Genuine abstention is infinitely more praiseworthy than > any ritualistic precept-keeping. When we abstain with > kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have > even thought about it. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: For sure! Merely ritualistic precept-keeping strikes me as falling into the same category of fake commodities as blind faith. One disclaimer, though: Sometimes useful habits can be created by such imitative actions. --------------------------------------------------- The sentiments that automatically> > follow it are unlikely to be, "I obey the precepts" > (though they might be). I think they are much more > likely to be, "How could I possibly kill a living > creature?" > > (The answer of course is, 'conditionality.') > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that the most important point here may be that of internality versus externality. When we make the precepts a part of ourselves, and not mere actions, then we have truly "taken the precepts". It's what's in the mind that is critical. Recall the Dhammapada's statement that "Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they." ---------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25406 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Dear Ken, I've been in Bangkok since wednesday and had a leasurely dinner with betty, Ivan, Elle and Sukinder. We talked about silabataparamasa as one of the topics. Your post is very wise. The other day I was feeling saddened by the 1million abortions performed in a year in America alone (sorry Americans for using your country as an example . I know Russia and china perform many more but they don't give out statisics as much). So we think , all those innocents being slaughtered. How could anyone be so cruel. But in a few lives after this one, we might be an expectant mother in a difficult position and do that very act. Not remembering at all our resolution in a prior life not to kill. That is why uncovering silabataparamasa - by learning to study nama and rupa- is the way it can be attentuated so that genuine insight which will eradicate the conditions for breaking any precepts is a most profitable area for right effort. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, (Howard and all), > > I have no answers, just more questions: > > By their nature, rules of training potentially give a > false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen > who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who > are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks > who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. > What is the reason for of all this 'acting out?' > > Whatever the reason for it, acting-out should be known > for what it is. When we worldlings make a show of not > killing an insect, let's not kid ourselves that we > wouldn't kill our own next-of-kin if the required > conditions were to arise. > > Genuine abstention is infinitely more praiseworthy than > any ritualistic precept-keeping. When we abstain with > kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have > even thought about it. The sentiments that automatically > follow it are unlikely to be, "I obey the precepts" > (though they might be). I think they are much more > likely to be, "How could I possibly kill a living > creature?" > > (The answer of course is, 'conditionality.') > > Kind regards, > Ken H 25407 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:07pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Ken, I am not sure where you are coming from. How would you know who is acting out with keeping precepts? Is keeping precepts acting out? What do you mean by ritualistic precept-keeping. Can keeping precepts be ritualistic? How would you determine what is ritualistic precept-keeping from non- ritualistic precept-keeping? Who is kidding him or herself that he or she wouldn't kill his or her own next-of-kin if the required conditions were to arise? What required conditions are you talking about? How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, if one has to kill when the required conditions arise? Isn't abstaining from killing, from taking what is not given, from lying, from sexual misconducts, from alcohol and drug itself wholesome? What is fake or genuine about abstaining from killing, from taking what is not given, from lying, from sexual misconducts, from alcohol and drug? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, (Howard and all), > > I have no answers, just more questions: > > By their nature, rules of training potentially give a > false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen > who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who > are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks > who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. > What is the reason for of all this 'acting out?' > > Whatever the reason for it, acting-out should be known > for what it is. When we worldlings make a show of not > killing an insect, let's not kid ourselves that we > wouldn't kill our own next-of-kin if the required > conditions were to arise. > > Genuine abstention is infinitely more praiseworthy than > any ritualistic precept-keeping. When we abstain with > kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have > even thought about it. The sentiments that automatically > follow it are unlikely to be, "I obey the precepts" > (though they might be). I think they are much more > likely to be, "How could I possibly kill a living > creature?" > > (The answer of course is, 'conditionality.') > > Kind regards, > Ken H 25408 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:11pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Erratum: "How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, if one has to kill when the required conditions arise?" should read "How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, possible if one has to kill when the required conditions arise?" 25409 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine and all, This is how I see it: The five precepts are clear-cut and unambiguous, and one can decide if these five precepts are rules or guidelines for oneself to live by. It is one's own decision. If one takes up five precepts as rules or guidelines to live by, then drinking wine, however small amount it is, means not refraining from intoxicating drink. He or she broke a rule that he or she had taken up for him or herself. There is no need to justify if drinking small amount of wine does not mean breaking the fifth precept. One can always not to take up the fifth precept as a rule to live by. He or she could be observing four precepts, or three precepts, or two precepts, or one precept, or no precept. If one did want to take up the fifth precept as a rule to live by, then one could just recognize that he or she had broken the rule and make an effort to refrain from drinking intoxicating drinks such as wine or beer. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah, Nina and all, 25410 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:31pm Subject: defilements eradicated at stream-entry references, please Dear All: At stream-entry, sotaapatti-magga-citta, what defilements are eradicated? Could you give me some referrence in the tipitaka, too, please? Best Regards, jaran 25411 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Training Precepts Dear Ken, do not be afraid to ask any question, it is not a matter of being horribly wrong. If people never ask, there are always some points of doubt that are not cleared up. op 18-09-2003 05:59 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: >....... > The kamma-pathas ARE intention aren't they? But when you > say,"breaking the fifth precept," you are talking about > conventional reality. A person can break the fifth > precept by drinking alcohol but there may be no serious > intention (cetana, kamma-patha) involved. N: It is not kusala, thus it is akusala. The akusala citta is not a conventional reality. K: I assume the same applies to the other four precepts. OR, > are you saying there is something special about the fifth > precept? N: The other four refer to serious akusala kamma. You may take one sip of wine, but you cannot say, just a little killing. > I ask that partly because the fifth precept doesn't seem > to correspond to any one kamma-patha (as the other four > do). Nina has said that drunkeness may lead to the > breaking of the other four precepts. Did she mean that > the fifth precept doesn't directly relate to any > particular kamma-patha? Or, was she simply making the > point that the precepts are concepts, not dhammas, and > that different dhammas (different types of cetana), can > be involved in each? N: the abstaining is kusala cetana. The precepts themselves are words of advice, guiding people to have kusala citta. The transgressing of the fifth is not among the classified kamma pathas with all the factors which make it a complete action. But , as Howard said, it is serious to drive while drunk. There are degrees of being intoxicated. He says: you need common sense. You have to find out for yourself: this is bad. Sati realizes: this is leading to your benefit, that not. H: Was I correct in assuming that the fifth precept is > basically about the mental kamma-patha, wrong view? N: No, it does not have anything to do with wrong view. Lobha, the wine tastes good. Or, what is worse: one finds it nice to be light in the head and forget one's worries. Nina. 25412 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: defilements eradicated at the sotaapattimagga-citta and references 2 op 18-09-2003 13:52 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op jjn@b...: >Dear Jaran, I read with interest and appreciation your correspondance with a friend of us. It is wonderful that you have discussions on Dhamma during sutta study. And please share them with us, so that we can anumodana. Would you tell us which suttas you study? Our friend wrote: I'm currently translating the Sa~ncetanika Sutta (A. 10.206/5:292). N: Jaran, you found many sutta references, excellent. It takes a lot of searching to find the right suttas, more easy to find places in Abh and co!! Defilements are classified under different groups and in the suttas we find references like this: the five lower fetters (samyoyana) were eradicated. There are convenient lists in Vis XXII, 47-77. The English is sometimes confusing: such as ties: gantha. Now the sotapanna has eradicated three of the five lower fetters, orambhaagyiya sa.myojana, and these are sakkaaya di.t.thi, personality, clinging to rules and rituals and doubt. All kinds of wrong view and wrong practice are eradicated by the sotapanna. Also avarice and jealousy. You may find suttas on the lower fetters. You would have to explain what wrong practice is. People wonder about this, they just read about practice like a cow or dog. But, as you know, this is not all. A delicate subject! J: I can answer part of my questions: in addition to sakkaaya-ditthi and > vicikicchaa, the next defilement eradicated at sotaapattimagga-citta is the > siilabbatapramasa. Please advice the references. N: Another way: if you would look up in PED a defilement or group, they may give sutta references. Jaran, you are doing excellent work. I find it difficult to find sutta references now. Let me know how it goes, if I can I would like to help, but those who are clever at CD Rom searching may help better. About being free from stinginess, I remember in the suttas: he lives at home, openhanded, etc. But I cannot remember where. As to doubt: he has crossed over doubt. Or this wording, The dustless eye of dhamma arose: describes attaiment of sotapanna. Nina. > 25413 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] week 5 (Jul 7 02) No 8 Dear Jaran, Thank you. op 18-09-2003 09:42 schreef jaranoh op jjn@b...: > But panna must develop in > their order: if satipatthana does not begin to arise, there will not > be the distinction of naama and ruupa through the mind-door [naama- > ruupa-pariccheda~na.na]. It all starts from the arising of sati to be > aware of lakkha.na of one dhamma arising *now*. It happens naturally, > nothing out of ordinary. Like it or not, panna will arise [to truely > experience the actual dhamma] corresponding to our understanding. N:< to be aware of one dhamma... Like it or not panna will arise. > We do not have to pay attention to specific objects, sati and panna will arise by themselves when there are the right conditions. That is why, even when running for your life during military exercises, like Icaro, who can prevent panna from arising. It does its own work. We do not have to do anything special. Nina. 25414 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] defilements eradicated at stream-entry references, please Hi Jaran, --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear All: > > At stream-entry, sotaapatti-magga-citta, what defilements are > eradicated? Could you give me some referrence in the tipitaka, too, > please? .... I’m also rushed right now, but you might find these posts (Christine & Icaro) from UP helpful: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17758 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24298 ..... Ray , TG or others may be able to add more sutta references - I’m not sure if the Abhidamattha Sangaha would be acceptable? On sakkaya ditthi and ditthi, I wonder if any of the quotes would be helpful in the post I sent to Victor yesterday? In UP, if you look under Sakkaya ditthi and Wrong view, you’ll find more references too, I think. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Also, Nina’s book, ‘Cetasikas’ for the various mental factors involved like ditthi, issa (envy) amd macchariya (stinginess) for more details. Hope you can share more of your writing & research with us here and greatly appreciating your extracts and translation series. As you know, some of the commentaries are available in Thai and not in English, so it's always good to have any extra notes from these. Yes, daily life and living naturally. Having an idea of not fleeing the burning house would be unnatural! Likewise with our work and even with the daily chores for bhikkhus - not any impediment to ‘practice’ as I understand. This was in the last extract from Nina’s translation of the commentary to the Mahrahulavadasutta: “When the Buddha had gone, the venerable Sariputta would leave his lodging and consider: ‘When there are many monks in a dwelling place, not all of them may be able to make it agreeable.’ He would go around and sweep the places that had not been swept. When there was rubbish that was not thrown away, he threw it away. When there was no drinking water in the place where it should be set out, he placed a pot with drinking water. He went to visit the sick and asked: "Friend, what shall I bring you, what do you wish?" .... Daily life for Sariputta. I hope we’ll see you in Bkk end Oct, Jaran. Metta, Sarah ====== 25415 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] defilements eradicated at stream-entry references, please Dear Jaran, Also Buddhist dict by Ven Nyanatiloka gives suttas (it is transl into Thai), under samyoyana: A.IV, 67, 68, X.13, D 33. For A.IV: it means Book of the fours (catunipata). I have to go out now,I hope this helps, Nina. op 19-09-2003 04:31 schreef jaranoh op jaranoh@y...: > > At stream-entry, sotaapatti-magga-citta, what defilements are > eradicated? Could you give me some referrence in the tipitaka, too, > please? > 25416 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Training Precepts Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: You raise a number of very interesting and curious points in your post and it would be easy to dismiss them and overlook the textual support. I’m raising a few: H: > But time factor is not the same. Vinayawise, Vinaya in Buddha Gotama > time are the greatest in number. ( I apologise my not being able to > show evidence for this ). .... I’ve also seen references like this (Vinaya?) - and it being a reason for a Buddha’s teachings to last longer. I just can’t find the references and will be glad for any help. .... H: > There had been many many Buddhas. Time factor of Parinibbana of a > Buddha and arising of next Buddha is immence. Unimaginably long. As > far as we can reach accoding to History even in this earth, specific > time speaks its existence and the existences differ each other. .... There is a lot of helpful detail in the Buddhavamsa (Bv) and IB Horner’s intro to her translation. She quotes from the comy to DN: “Before our Lord’s aspiration was made the four Buddhas.....arose in one eon. This was followed by one incalculable world-period void of Buddhas. In the final eon of the inclaculable only one Buddha, named Kondanna, arose in that eon. thena gain there was an incalculable world-period void of Buddhas. ..............”and so it goes on for other Buddhas and other incalculables void of Buddhas. Only Metteyya will arise in the present eon. The ‘Miscellany on the Buddhas’ at the end of the Bv also gives all these details. As Horner pointed out in her introduction “this world of ours, which is but one world in the so called ten-thousand world-systm, has to be in a state of comparative harmony for Buddhas to arise and their message to be received and effective. they arise after they have succeeded in their determined endeavour, lasting for eons (as Bv makes abundantly clear), to fulfil the perfections to the third and highest degree. Time on a cosmic plane has to be allowed both for the enormously long period of self-preparation needed to win omniscience, and hence for the rare appeearance of Buddhas in the world.” She also explains how eons are divided into ‘Void eons’(su~n~nakappa), which is void of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and universal monarchs and ‘Non-void eons’ (asu~n`nakappa) consisting of five classes to which the 28 Buddhas mentioned in Bv and BvA are assigned. In addition to the ‘tremendous periods of time involved, incalculable by computation and beyond all ways of reckoning’, we read in the Bv about Buddhas and their contemporaries living for hundreds and thousands of years. She gives a table for this and it also reminds me of some posts of Jim’s on this subject in the early DSG days which I’ve just found on this subject. (no need to comment, Jim;-)). He wrote: “According to DN XXVI, Cakkavatti-siihanaada-sutta, stealing first arose when the normal life span of humans was 80,000 years or less. So that means at least 17 of the last 25 Buddhas arose in a world where stealing was unknown. The sutta suggests that the next Buddha, Metteyya, will appear in a world when the normal human lifespan will be 80,000 years. It takes an intermediate period (antarakappa) for the human lifespan to decline from 100,000+ years down to 10 and back. 20 such periods make up 1 great aeon. I think it's generally understood that the current human condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main contributor to the decline of the human lifespan.” He also gives some details about the lifespans of Buddhas and more interesting details about‘incalculables’ and ‘eons’ in these early posts: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1076.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1081.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1082.html In the Cakkavatti-siihanaada Sutta, there is a wealth of interesting and relevant information on the decline of lifespans and of associated morality in general. .... H: > Within 2000 years, sexual orientation and view on it has changed a > lot. This is time factor. In the first 1000, even though there might > be abnormal sexual orientation, it was not so prevalent as today. > Today, some laws have to be passed. In the indefinite past, there > might have been a time when there is no gay. This can be reasoned out. > Regarding intoxicants, there also was a time when there was not any > intoxicant ( used as recreational purposes ). At that particular time > no one will drink alcohol as there might not have any form of > alcohol. Even if alcohol existed, as there was no previous practice, > no one would drink that strange smelling liquid. > > Before the era of telling lies, those who heard telling lies could > not understand what was the matter. Before that era, no one would try > to tell lies. And there are many other things to discuss on time > factors. .... I’d like to see more references relating to the present Buddha sasana in this regard. We know many of the Buddha's disciples lived to over 120 or 140 yrs(?).If you or anyone have anything further to add, it would be interesting. In the Cakkavatt-Siihanaada Sutta, we read about the reasons for the various declines including from 250 yrs to 100 yrs (not giving to the needy, lack of respect for parents, ascetics and heads of clans) and how there will be a lifespan of ten years in the future. I’m sure the purity at times of the long-living Buddhas is unimaginable to us today. I think ch X111 in Visuddhimagga on world cylcles is also relevant. It can also be found on line: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits069.htm We read about the reasons for the decline of worlds: “Why does the world perish in these particular ways? It is on account of the special wickedness that may be at bottom. For it is in accordance with the wickedness preponderating that the world perishes. When passion preponderates, it perishes by fire; when hatred, it perishes by water.--But some say that when hatred preponderates, it perishes by fire, and that when passion preponderates it perishes by water.--When infatuation preponderates, it perishes by wind.” We also read in this account reference to the start of stealing in world cycles: “Now when these beings eat this material food, the excrements are formed within them, and in order that they may relieve themselves, openings appear in their bodies, and the virility of the man, and the femininity of the woman. Then the woman begins to meditate excessively on the man, and the man on the woman, and as a result of this excessive meditation, the fever of lust springs up, and they have carnal connection. And being tormented by the reproofs of the wise for their low conduct, they build houses for its concealment. And having begun to dwell in houses, after a while they follow the example of some lazy one among themselves, and store up food. From that time on the red granules and the husks envelop the rice-grains, and wherever a crop has been mown down, it does not spring up again. Then these beings come together, and groan aloud, saying, "Alas! wickedness has sprung up among men; for surely we formerly were made of mind." The full account of this is to be supplied from the Discourse on Primitive Ages. Then they institute boundary lines, and one steals another's share.” ..... H: > When our Buddha Gotama arose as Buddha and soon followed by arising > of Arahats, The Buddha had not passed any Vinaya in His early time. > Because it was not needed at that time as all members of Sangha were > Arahats and all bhikkhus were Arahats. > > But as time passed by The Buddha had to pass down Vinaya by using > Buddha authority. Some Buddha even did not lay down any Vinaya as all > members of his followers including Sangha and all Puthujana people > did not do any ill-things and they would not do as long as that > Buddha stayed. All Sammasambuddha do have Sabbannuta Nana. All > Sammasambuddhas are the same in terms of Dhamma. .... I think this is right and ‘fits’ with the lengths of life-spans and other details Jim gave. Even now, it’s hard to imagine the general levels of dana, sila, jhana and then wisdom at the time of the Buddha compared to now, a relatively short time later in these terms. Some of this was touched on in the decline of the sasana thread as well. As you say the Dhamma and omniscience of the Buddhas is the same. Also from Vism, ch X111 on ‘world cycles’ and how the Buddhas would know all this detail about eons: “The Buddhas, however, do not need to make use of the succession of the groups, nor yet of the sequence of births and deaths. For any point which they choose to remember, throughout many times ten million world-cycles, becomes plain to them, and that in either direction. Thus they contract many times ten million world-cycles, as one would make an abridgment in a Pâli text, arriving at the desired point with the stride of a lion. Just as an arrow shot from the bow of a skilled archer, trained like Sarabhanga to shoot at a hair's breadth, goes straight to the mark, and is not caught in the way by any tree or plant, nor sticks fast, nor misses its aim, so the intellect of The Buddhas is not caught by any intervening birth, nor do they miss their aim, but go straight to the wished-for place.” .... > Among Sila matter, drinking alcohol per se is not an Akusala as > discussed in the previous post of this thread. But time factor speaks > and other factors like anatomy and physiology of Manussa at > particular time. > > At some time, intoxicant may rapidly change the mind of drinkers and > removes their controls over things. But at some time drinking alcohol > will not have any problem. .... This makes sense, but again I'd be curious to see references. .... H: > Main things is to advance forward in achievement of Dhamma. If > intoxicant hinders it, then it should be totally avoided. If it does > not hinder the practice like very very small amount of alcohol in > some food and some medicine, the practitioner of Dhamma should not > have any Kukkucca on that food and medicine. .... I agree, though when I was unknowingly given some medicine in alcohol a few years ago, I almost fainted and had to lie down in the clinic to recover;-) ... > May you all have a good insight into Dhamma. .... Thx Htoo for these comments. If you or anyone else finds additional relevant textual support, I’d be glad to see that too. Hoping you’re well and good to see you reading the posts;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 25417 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:07am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hello Howard, Ken, Rob, and Victor, Thank you all for your posts. My question, however, was not about moderation, extremism, common sense, judgmentalism, acting out, kidding ourselves, ritualistic precept-keeping or silabataparamasa. My question was about the downgrading of the importance of keeping a particular precept, turning it into a lifestyle choice. It was about why, when the Buddha used the same words in a sutta for abstaining from killing, abstaining from stealing, abstaining fromwrongful sexual conduct, abstaining from lying and abstaining from intoxicants, it should be deemed that the habitual and planned breaking of one precept should meet with justification and acceptance and not the others. There doesn't seem to be a rider to the sutta saying 'Well chaps, the first four are really really important, and oh, here's another one for any of you who think you could stand a bit of extra training this week.' What happened to seeing the danger in the slightest fault? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25418 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:44am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Dera Christine, I think i've missed something somewhere. I was replying to Ken's letter but I didn't see any posts where anyone is saying drinking alcohol is not akusala? Nina refered to lodewijk drinking some wine with some of his meals. She said this is akusala but noted that it is not as strong akusala as if someone drinks to get drunk. I take it we all accept that. The person she referred to who said one sip of even a beeris akusala kammapatha was myself. I wrote about this a couple of years ago. And there was a discusion at the foundation about this. Ajahn Sujin pointed out that the sotapanna can never drink alcohol deliberately but if I remember rightly said that drinking with the intent to get drunk is worse than having a drink for the taste. There was mention too of the vinaya where there is a passage about whether monks are allowed to take medicine if it has any alcohol in it. I think someone said they could if the amount of alcohol was very minimal , but someone would have to check? It is also like killing. If one really enjoys killing it is worse than if one kills out of self- defense say. It always depends on the mindstate when doing any deed. Many degrees and we can't always pinpoint. Of course it is clear in many texts that drinking alcohol is akusala. one example: In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated as Minor readings PTS by nanamoli). on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies according to its degree. " But unlike killing, drinking is always greatly blamable. Why? because it obstructs the ariyan Dhamma by inducing even madness in a human being". It does note however if one gets very drunk to the point of doing bad things this is the worst. Still there are exampes like Sarakanni who left the order of monks and became an alcoholic . He still came to listen to the Dhamma during his sober intervals. But died with stench of alochol strong on his breath. Some monks were outraged when the Buddha proclamined him to have become a sotapanna at the moment of death and now in the deva world . But this was by conditions he accumulated good and bad deeds. And especially he must have seen deeply into conditionality so that the idea of self was eradicated, as ken was pointing too. Strong insight can be developing that does not always show itself to outside observation. RobertK p32 "the fruits of abstaining from the opportunity for negilgence due to wine or liquor are such things as quick recognition of past, future and present tasks to be done, constant establishment of mindfulness, possession of knowledge, non-stupidty, non-drivelingness,,,non-confusion, non-timorousness, non-presumption, uneviousness, truthfulness, freedom from malicious and harsh speech and from gossip, freedom from dullness day and night, gratitude, libearlty, possesion of conscience, great understanding, rectitude of view, skill in distinguishing skill from unskill, and so on"END QUOTE. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Howard, Ken, Rob, and Victor, > > Thank you all for your posts. My question, however, was not about > moderation, extremism, common sense, judgmentalism, acting out, > kidding ourselves, ritualistic precept-keeping or silabataparamasa. > My question was about the downgrading of the importance of keeping a > particular precept, turning it into a lifestyle choice. It was about > why, when the Buddha used the same words in a sutta for abstaining > from killing, abstaining from stealing, abstaining fromwrongful > sexual conduct, abstaining from lying and abstaining from > intoxicants, it should be deemed that the habitual and planned > breaking of one precept should meet with justification and > acceptance and not the others. There doesn't seem to be a rider to > the sutta saying 'Well chaps, the first four are really really > important, and oh, here's another one for any of you who think you > could stand a bit of extra training this week.' What happened to > seeing the danger in the slightest fault? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25419 From: ajahn_paul Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:41am Subject: Spirit out of body? @.@ Some ppl r discussing [spirit going out of body] in some chinese newsgroup. i dont beleive this and i even dont want to discuss on this useless topic in the first place. But ppl seems getting interest and moving out of the Buddhism's track. >.< Does any of you know any dhamma concerning on this topic? Thanks! ^^ 25420 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: Pali language Dear Suan, I have the same attitude in learning languages. When we read some suttas which are not too difficult and we have studied the Co, I agree, the sutta in Pali goes straight to the heart, a very effective reminder for satipatthana now. Other suttas may be more difficult, we need more study. I always find that the English translation does not do justice to the Pali, it is a loss. But we work with it, because Pali is difficult for us. Take this one: Sam. IV, XXXV, 107: Loko. Lokassa bhikkhave samudaya~nca atthagama~n ca desissaami ta.m su.naatha. Katamo ca bhikkhave lokassa samudayo Cakkhu~nca pa.ticca ruupe ca uppajjati cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m.... Owing to eye and objects arises eye-consciousness. This is always now. Nina. op 18-09-2003 16:38 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > 3. Use English like native speakers do - speak, read, write and dream > in English. > > The above atitudes are also transferred to dealing with Pali language. > > Needless to say, I find it most enjoyable to read Pali like a native > speaker would. 25421 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Vis. Tiika 14, second section Tiika 14, second section : Relevant text Vis. 14: And this is said: 'Herein, what is understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. ' (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. "tattha katamaa cintaamayaa pa~n~naa? "yogavihitesu vaa kammaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa sippaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa vijjaa.t.thaanesu kammassakata.m vaa saccaanulomika.m vaa ruupa.m aniccanti vaa vedanaa...pe0... sa~n~naa. sa"nkhaaraa. vi~n~naa.na.m aniccanti vaa, ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa pa~n~naa...pe0... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa pa~n~naa. "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" ***** Tiika 14, second section, skipping the first part about understanding regarding the spheres of work, science, etc. (almost the same as Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 16, 2073, p. 157): kammassakatanti ``ida.m kamma.m sattaana.m saka.m, ida.m no saka''nti eva.m jaanana~naa.na.m. As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². saccaanulomikanti vipassanaa~naa.na.m. As to the words, what is in conformity with truth, this is insight knowledge. ta.m hi saccapa.tivedhassa anulomanato ``saccaanulomika''nti vuccati. That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the penetration of the truth. idaanissa pavattanaakaara.m dassetu.m ``ruupa.m aniccanti vaa''tiaadi vutta.m. Now in order to show the way it occurs, it is said, materiality is impermanent, or... and so on. tattha vaa-saddena aniyamatthena dukkhaanattalakkha.naanipi gahitaanevaati da.t.thabba.m naanantariyakabhaavato. Here with the indefinite word ³or² also the characteristics of dukkha and non-self are thus taken and should be understood, although not handed down. ya.m hi anicca.m, ta.m dukkha.m. ya.m dukkha.m, tadanattaati. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is dukkha is non-self, has been said. ya.m evaruupinti ya.m eva.m he.t.thaa niddi.t.thasabhaava.m. The words, ³or is of such kind², refer to the characteristic that is thus described above *. anulomika.m khantintiaadiini pa~n~naavevacanaani. Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. saa hi he.t.thaa vuttaana.m kammaayatanaadiina.m apaccaniikadassanena anulomanato, For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres of work and so on, which were explained above.** tathaa sattaana.m hitacariyaaya maggasaccassa, paramatthasaccassa, nibbaanassa ca avilomanato anulometiiti anulomikaa. Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, namely nibbana. ***** English: As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². As to the words, what is in conformity with truth, this is insight knowledge. That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the penetration of the truth. Now in order to show the way it occurs, it is said, materiality is impermanent, or... and so on. Here with the indefinite word ³or² also the characteristics of dukkha and non-self are thus taken and should be understood, although not handed down. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is dukkha is non-self, has been said. The words, ³or is of such kind², refer to the characteristic that is thus described above *. Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres of work and so on, which were explained above.** Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, namely nibbana. ----------- * This refers to understanding, as we read in the Visuddhimagga: ³or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent..² ** We read in the Visuddhimagga: . The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of science, etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is wisdom in behaviour beneficial to beings, and higher degrees of understanding, namely: understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. 25422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Dear Howard and Ken, op 19-09-2003 02:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Howard quotes Ken: >> By their nature, rules of training potentially give a >> false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen >> who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who >> are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks >> who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. > Howard: > I think that the most important point here may be that of internality > versus externality. When we make the precepts a part of ourselves, and not > mere actions, then we have truly "taken the precepts". It's what's in the mind > that is critical. Recall the Dhammapada's statement that "Mind is the > forerunner > of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they." Nina: Howard, you wrote what I just tried to explain in Pali list about the benefit of the Vinaya and satipatthana, that these should go together. I quote part: It goes for laypeople also with regard to the precepts: through satipatthana observing them can come from within, more naturally. Mind is the forerunner. That is why even satipatthana is classified under sila, as we see in the Visuddhimagga. I think that was what Ken meant when he said: it can be like acting out, thus, it is merely outward observing. The monks lead the life of an arahat, but they know that they are not perfect. They confess to each other their transgressions, and they forgive each other. But the rules help them to know themselves. And also, they should be an example to laypeople. It is not acting as if, acting out, but the Visuddhimagga, in the Ch on sila, also gives examples of insincere conduct. The monk should not meditate in public, hoping that laypeople shall become more generous to him because of it. Nina. 25423 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. op 18-09-2003 00:40 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Larry quotes: > Nina: "Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, when the > duration of rupa is compared to that of citta. Or, counting three > sub-moments of each citta as: arising moment, moments of presence and > moment of falling away, rupa lasts as long as fiftyone submoments of > citta." L: > In the above you are referring to the rupa that disturbs the bhavanga, > not the rupa that impinges on the sensitive matter of the sense base, > correct? Aren't these two different rupas? N: The duration concerns all rupas which are concrete matter. The rupa that has impinged on one of the sensebases (eye, ear, bodysense, which are extremely tiny, smaller than a needle point) first disturbs the bhavanga and then a process is set in motion. Impingement, sensitive matter, we should not confuse these notions with the way we use these in conventional language. Just now it seems that we see, hear and experience tangible object all at the same time. But in reality only one citta experiences one object. Bodysense is all over the body, but only one extremely tiny point is the place where a tangible object impinges, and on account of this a process of cittas which experience that object can arise. Not two points at the same time are impinged on. Cittas are so very fast and we have the illusion that there can be more than one experience at a time. All this can be proven by satipatthana, by awareness of one object at a time. Nina. 25424 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Dear Howard, op 17-09-2003 21:07 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Howard quotes from Nina: Right livelihood: a >> virati cetasika abstains from wrong livelihood at certain moments. >> When lokuttara citta arises the object of the three abstinences is not a >> person, it is nibbana. The conditions for wrong speech, action, livelihood >> are cut off, in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. >> Thus: nibbana is experienced and conditions for akusala are eradicated. At >> the same time. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, okay. What you describe here seem to be "mind movements" quite > like intentions/inclinations/acts of volition. But, in any case, this sense of > 'right livelihood' appears to be radically differnt from what the Buddha gives > in the suttas, where lists of wrong choices of livelihood are given. Nowhere > have I come across anything like this in the suttas. Is it not possible that, > relative to the suttas, the Abhidhamma is being "innovative" here, contrary to > the idea expressed by some that there is nothing in Abhidhamma does not > already occur in the suttas? N: The Buddha gave in the suttas examples, occasions where one could transgress, such as selling alcohol. But, in all of the teachings the essence is: know the citta, be aware of the citta, citta with virati cetasika abstains. In the Book of Analysis, second book of the Abh. there are also many examples of wrongdoing, insincerity etc. When these are committed for the sake of livelihood (for the monk: to obtain things) they are wrong livelihood. Ch 17, § 851: A long list:he is pretending to be better than one is. §862: This is Abhidhamma! Many examples, with the aim: know the citta, citta is the forerunner.The teaching in Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma is one. ________ > Howard: >..... But I don't see how that answers the > question about the assertion "The fruition-consciousness experiences nibbana > and > the defilements that were to be eradicated at that stage ..." seeming to > allowfor multiple objects for fruition consciousness. I apologize for pressing > this, but I still find this issue unresolved. N: I do not see a problem concerning fruition-consciousness which is vipakacitta experiencing nibbana, but I would understand it if your question pertained to Path-consciousness. I shall quote now Vis. XXII, 92,< The four functions in a single moment. Now at the times of penetrating to the truth each one of the four [path] knowledges is said to exercise four functions in a single moment. These are: full understanding, abandoning, realizing and developing... For this is said by the Ancients 'Just as a lamp performs four functions simultaneously in a single moment-it burns the wick, dispels darkness, makes light appear, and uses up the oil- so too, path knowledge penetrates the four truths simultaneously in a single moment- it penetrates to suffering by penetrating to it with full understanding, penetrates to origination by penetrating to it with abandoning, penetrates to the path by penetrating to it with developing and penetrates to cessation by penetrating to it with realizing. What is meant? By making cessation [N:nibbana] its object it reaches, sees and pierces the four truths.> Nina. 25425 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Victor - In a message dated 9/18/03 9:18:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Erratum: > > "How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, > if one has to kill when the required conditions arise?" > > should read > > "How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, possible > if one has to kill when the required conditions arise?" > > ======================= And the answer (to the correct formulation) is: It's not; it's a violation. But life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. As I said, killing a scorpion about to sting a child would be a violation of the precept, but it is an action I believe I would take if there were no other recourse, and it is an action which I think is the more moral of the two choices a) Do nothing and b) Kill the scorpion, but it is action that would be very mentally painful to me. I *think* I would take the action, though I find a terribly strong repugnance at the thought of doing so. Obviously, if I could simply remove either the scorpion (to where it would do no further harm) or the child (to safety), that would be a far better choice. Tell me, Victor, if a rabid dog were attacking yourself or a relative or a friend or even a stranger, and if you had the means to kill the dog, *and no other means to save the victim*, what would you do? Would it be a violation of the precept to kill the dog? Sure would be! Would it be the "wrong" thing to do? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25426 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/19/03 2:02:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > >Howard: > >..... But I don't see how that answers the > >question about the assertion "The fruition-consciousness experiences > nibbana > >and > >the defilements that were to be eradicated at that stage ..." seeming to > >allowfor multiple objects for fruition consciousness. I apologize for > pressing > >this, but I still find this issue unresolved. > N: I do not see a problem concerning fruition-consciousness which is > vipakacitta experiencing nibbana, but I would understand it if your question > pertained to Path-consciousness. > ======================== Thank you for the detailed reply. With regard to what seem to be multiple objects of fruition consciousness, I am referring to nibbana being one object and the three defilements/fetters that were to be eradicated at stream entry being others. That gives a total of four objects, it would seem. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25427 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Howard, ---------- H. > This is an interesting observation, Ken. It reminds me of (is it St. Augustine's?) "Imitation of Christ" and Judaism's "Be holy, for I, the Eternal, thy God, am holy." ---------- Yes, that's the interesting thing: Superficially, the Dhamma sounds like other teachings. How is it different and what is the importance of that difference? With all due respect to the other great teachers in history, they simply hadn't seen, with insight, the conditioned and the unconditioned realities. When we gain a little understanding of those absolute realities, we see how the Dhamma is unique. -------------- H. > Possibly, acting "as if" tends to cultivate the actuality. > Sometimes useful habits can be created by such imitative actions. > ------------- This is a reasonable suggestion but it doesn't take into account the uniqueness of the Dhamma. Rob M also makes a good argument for what you have said; he refers to "habit condition" as found (I think) in the Abhidhamma. But which habits will condition kusala? Does the habit of 'imitating kusala' condition kusala or does it condition more imitation? -------------- H. > When we make the precepts a part of ourselves, and not mere actions, then we have truly "taken the precepts". It's what's in the mind that is critical. > -------------- That sounds right, although I haven't read much about taking precepts and I've never engaged in any ceremony of that kind. We don't need a Tathagata to teach us precepts. Jesus and St Augustine, the much maligned Jains and countless others all taught perfectly good precepts and many followers sincerely observe them (make them a part of themselves). But precepts don't destroy kilesas. As Robert K said; in a future life, (or maybe later in this life), our strongest resolutions may be forgotten and we will be back where we started. So, essentially, all those praiseworthy precepts might as well be meaningless rites and rituals; They don't get us out of samsara. It is only when we study nama and rupa that, as Rob K said, our clinging to mere rite and ritual is uncovered. Then we see that the similarity to St Augustine and Co., is purely superficial. Kind regards, Ken H 25428 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:21pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > That is why uncovering silabataparamasa - by learning to study nama > and rupa- is the way it can be attentuated so that genuine insight which > will eradicate the conditions for breaking any precepts is a most > profitable area for right effort. ---------------- Thanks Robert, I like the way you say that the study of nama and rupa 'uncovers silabataparamasa.' We know the Buddha didn't teach the efficacy of rite and ritual but it's hard to know how his Dhamma is different. So, despite our protestations to the contrary, we cling to rite and ritual. Only when we learn about nama and rupa is our silabataparamasa uncovered. Kind regards, Ken H 25429 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:23pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Victor, Yikes, you seem to have found fault with every word I wrote! :-) ----------- V. > Who is kidding him or herself that he or she wouldn't kill his or her own next-of-kin if the required conditions were to arise? What required conditions are you talking about? How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, if one has to kill when the required conditions arise? > ----------- Here, I think you have genuinely misunderstood me. I don't want to suggest hypothetical situations in which you might kill your own parents or wife or anyone. But, with a little imaginative thinking, you'll see how you might, in some extreme circumstances, feel compelled to do the unthinkable. That's all I was saying. --------------- V. > Isn't abstaining from killing, from taking what is not given, from lying, from sexual misconducts, from alcohol and drug itself wholesome? > ----------------- Yes, but there is no control over these things. First, there has to be the opportunity to break the precepts, then there has to be abstention (with adosa and alobha). Most of the time, we only think there is opportunity; most of the time we act out of lobha, dosa and moha and we think, "Look, I'm doing good!" Either way (breaking, non-breaking, getting it right, getting it wrong), we only think we have control over over these things. Apart from the five khandhas, there is no actor who acts and no thinker who thinks. Furthermore, with or without the illusion of such entities, there can never be any control over conditions. But there I go again with those "views" you object to so much :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25430 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. Tiika 14, second section Hi Nina, I am understanding this as saying there are three kinds of understanding as reasoning, learning from another, and jhana. All the insight knowledges are reasoned. Is this how you see it? Are "learning" and "having attained jhana" also concerned with individual and general characteristics but not on the level of insight? Larry 25431 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Nina, I still don't understand. Is the sensitive matter of sense bases different from the bhavanga stream? What is the function of this sensitive matter? Larry 25432 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Ken, Is keeping the first precept possible in extreme circumstances? Do you think if one should keep the first precept in extreme circumstances? Perhaps I am not imaginative enough, but I don't see there is any circumstance in which I have to kill anyone. If you do see such circumstance with your imagination, what would it be? Are you saying that with required condition, one has to kill? If one has to kill given required condition, then how is refraining from killing possible, how is keeping the first precept possible? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 25433 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Howard Thanks for your detailed reply. I am responding just on your first comment, and have snipped the rest. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would suspect that concentrating on various objects that > are > common-sensically either kusala or neutral (such as various sounds) > leads to calm, > ease, and the absence of opposing features. Concentrating intently > on lustful > thoughts or vengeful thoughts or intentions etc, however, while > generating > energy, are unlikely to engender calm. > ------------------------------------------------------- I think you are saying that if one concentrates on the right kind of object (a 'kusala' object) for long enough, the mind-state will become calm and then kusala. I'm sure this is a commonly held view. So far as the teachings are concerned, however, we should remember that there is no such thing as kusala or akusala objects, only kusala or akusala mind-states; nor is it said that merely concentrating on the 'right object' leads (via calm) to kusala mind-states. There are of course certain objects (the 40) that are *capable of* supporting the development of tranquillity to the level of access or absorption concentration (jhana), but that is quite a different thing from saying that concentration on those objects will lead to calm and to kusala citta. As I understand it, we cannot 'think' our way to kusala by the choice of a particular object of thought. Wrong view, for one thing, is always ready to intervene and lead the thinking astray. So if a person does develop concentration on one of the 40 objects in the (mistaken) belief that this will somehow lead to kusala mind-states, the ensuing concentration is unlikely to be kusala (and hence would be akusala, although this would not be apparent to the person at the time). Mere concentration on one of the 40 objects of meditation does not satisfy the conditions for the development of kusala, which are principally (a) useful reflection, prompted or supported by hearing words that are appropriate to one's present stage of development and readiness to receive, and (b) one's previously accumulated tendencies for kusala. I am aware that personal experience can appear to give a different conclusion, i.e., that personal experience seems to confirm that focussed concentration on an object leads to calm. But is this apparent calm truly the calm of kusala? Unless a person has previously developed an understanding of the difference between the kusala and akusala moments as they arise naturally in daily life (as of course they do for everyone) there is simply no way that true calm can be sorted out from subtle attachment accompanied by slight pleasant feeling or neutral feeling (for example, a gentle lulling effect). The 'jhana' we read about in the suttas is of course the jhana that is the outcome of the development of samatha, but this requires first and foremost the development of kusala (and its associated concentration), not simply the development of concentration per se. I believe this is supported by the quote you give in your message: > [First jhana] > "There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture > and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and > evaluation. This suggests to me that the absence of unskilful qualities (i.e., the presence of kusala) must precede the attainment of jhana. Jon 25434 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry (and Howard) (Larry, I meant to include you in my post to Howard of a minute ago. Sorry) I would like to go back a step and look at the factors that lead to the development of concentration, i.e., the factors that support consciousness in taking the same object repeatedly. This is a subject we have discussed on a number of occasions previously. Below is a passage on this subject from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha that I came across recently in CMA, and also the commentary translation from STA on the same part of the text. Of interest is that, although called 'jhana' factors, they apply to the development of concentration at any level (i.e., for anyone). Note that none of the factors is exclusively a kusala factor (and indeed, one of them is an exclusively akusala factor). To me this suggests that there is no *necessary* link between concentration and kusala, even though in our experience concentration *seems* to lead to a calming of the mind. Larry, you say, "My view is that jhana is clearly Right Concentration." There are certainly grounds for asserting that Right Concentration is jhana, since there are passages in the suttas describing Right Concentration (as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path) in terms of the 4 jhanas. But I don't think the reverse can be said, i.e., that jhana is Right Concentration. Likewise, it's true that as long as samatha is being developed the necessary concentration for jhana is also being developed, but again the reverse is not true, i.e., that the development of concentration leads to kusala. Jon ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CMA Chapter VII - Compendium of Categories Compendium of Mixed Categories #16 Jhaana Factors The seven jhaana factors: (1) initial application, (2) sustained application, (3) zest, (4) one-pointedness, (5) joy, (6) displeasure, (7) equanimity. [vitakka, vicaara, piiti, ekaggataa, somanassa, domanassa, upekkhaa] Guide to #16 The word 'jhaana' is not used here in the sense of meditative absorption, but in the broader sense of close contemplation (upanijjhaayana) of an object. Therefore the states listed here are considered jhaana factors even when they occur outside a meditative framework. These seven cetasikas are called jhaana factors because they enable the mind to closely contemplate its object. Of them, displeasure is exclusively unwholesome and occurs only in the two cittas connected with aversion [dosa]. The other six can be wholesome, unwholesome, or indeterminate, depending on the citta in which they occur. STA The miscellaneous collection [Commentary] The jhaana factors (jhaananga) are jhaana in the sense of contemplating (upanijjhaayana), understood as considering, the object [of consciousness] once they have approached it, and in the sense of burning up (jhaapana) their respective opposing dhammas. And these are also the limbs (anga) that walk (angiiyati) or progress by being the components of the assembled items. And while there is no whole apart from its components, like the parts (anga) of an army or of a chariot, which are so called by their being the separate parts [of the whole], [the jhaana-factors] are [such] because together they constitute jhaana. Herein unhappiness is an unwholesome jhaana factor; the rest are wholesome, unwholesome and undetermined jhaana factors. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --- Larry wrote: > Hi Jon, > > My view is that jhana is clearly Right Concentration. I don't know > what the official definition of "right" is but I would think it > includes all the path factors. So even though none of the jhana > factors are exclusively wholesome all of the path factors are > assumed > as 'context'. > > Additionally, I don't see why a mantra couldn't be an object of > right > concentration as long as it was elemental or wholesome. What's the > difference between a sound and a color (colour). > > On another tack, I would say all 40 objects of jhana are mantra > insofar as they are repititious vitakka and vicara. However, > traditionally, mantra is sanskrit only and not necessarily used to > develop one pointed concentration, nor is it necessarily wholesome. > > Larry 25435 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Howard, No, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I completely agree with you. It is precisely because life is not a simple, singular phenomenon, it is possible to save the child from scorpion without killing. In other word, if, for some reason, you were in the situation where a scorpion is about to sting a child, you wouldn't be left with only two choices: 1)Do nothing or 2)Save the child by killing the scorpion. In fact, you just listed two more choices: 3) remove either the scorpion to where it would do no further harm, or 4) remove the child to safety. And choice 3) and choice 4) are not only better than choice 1) and choice 2). They are smarter. Now you are setting me up in the rabid dog situation, assuming the only way to save the victim is to kill the rabid dog. What if I don't accept that assumption at all? Like you said, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I agree with that! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - [snip] 25436 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I'm not sure what your point is, but I agree virtue (sila) is necessary for the development of the path. Are you saying something more than that? Larry 25437 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hello Victor and Howard, I don't think ANYONE knows what they would REALLY do in extreme circumstances. Lets hope I never have to decide what to do if a rabid koala tries to get my elderly mother, or a platypus aims its poisonous hind spur at SarahF ... I'll deal with it at that time, and consequences be damned! But getting back to real life ... which consists of living in rather boring humdrum situations.... the Precepts are part of this everyday life. The Buddha set the foundation of the ethical life of lay people firmly on these short simple clear straightforward Training Rules. Minimising any of them, looking for loopholes, or deciding in advance to bend them, doesn't bode well for whatever structure one hopes to build on that foundation, don't you think? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > No, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I completely agree > with you. It is precisely because life is not a simple, singular > phenomenon, it is possible to save the child from scorpion without > killing. In other word, if, for some reason, you were in the > situation where a scorpion is about to sting a child, you wouldn't > be left with only two choices: 1)Do nothing or 2)Save the child by > killing the scorpion. In fact, you just listed two more choices: 3) > remove either the scorpion to where it would do no further harm, or > 4) remove the child to safety. And choice 3) and choice 4) are not > only better than choice 1) and choice 2). They are smarter. > > Now you are setting me up in the rabid dog situation, assuming the > only way to save the victim is to kill the rabid dog. What if I > don't accept that assumption at all? > > Like you said, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I agree > with that! > > Peace, > Victor 25438 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry Thanks for the succinct comment and direct question ;-)) --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I'm not sure what your point is, but I agree virtue (sila) is > necessary > for the development of the path. Are you saying something more than > that? > > Larry All kusala is supportive of the development of the path. Sila is, by nature/definition, kusala and so of course is included. Concentration, on the other hand, is not kusala by nature/definition, it is either kusala or akusala, depending on the nature of the moment of consciousness. What, then, is the development of concentration that is kusala (only)? Jon 25439 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:12pm Subject: Re: Spirit out of body? @.@ Hello Paul, Good to read you again! :-) Did you get to see Sara, Jon and RobM when he visited HK the other week? You chaps should keep in closer contact. :-) I don't know anything much about being outside the body .. sounds a bit like Astral Travelling. However, in an article called "The mind- body relationship in Pali Buddhism: A philosophical investigation" by Peter Havery, there is a bit about The Mind-made Body and also about Psychic Powers. Scroll down towards the foot of the article. http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/014-mind- body_relationship.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ajahn_paul" wrote: > Some ppl r discussing [spirit going out of body] in some chinese > newsgroup. i dont beleive this and i even dont want to discuss on > this useless topic in the first place. But ppl seems getting > interest and moving out of the Buddhism's track. >.< > > Does any of you know any dhamma concerning on this topic? > Thanks! ^^ 25440 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Ken/Howard In a message dated 9/19/03 5:17:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ---------- > H. >This is an interesting observation, Ken. It reminds > me of (is it St. Augustine's?) "Imitation of Christ" and > Judaism's "Be holy, for I, the Eternal, thy God, am > holy." > ---------- > > Yes, that's the interesting thing: Superficially, the > Dhamma sounds like other teachings. How is it different > and what is the importance of that difference? > > With all due respect to the other great teachers in > history, they simply hadn't seen, with insight, the > conditioned and the unconditioned realities. When we > gain a little understanding of those absolute realities, > we see how the Dhamma is unique. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't for a second dispute the difference between the Dhamma and the teachings of other traditions. My point is only that it is common to recommend the imitation of goodness. -------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > H. >Possibly, acting "as if" tends to cultivate the > actuality. > >Sometimes useful habits can be created by such > imitative actions. > > ------------- > > This is a reasonable suggestion but it doesn't take into > account the uniqueness of the Dhamma. Rob M also makes > a good argument for what you have said; he refers to > "habit condition" as found (I think) in the Abhidhamma. > But which habits will condition kusala? Does the habit > of 'imitating kusala' condition kusala or does it > condition more imitation? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That, I think, would depend on other conditions. ------------------------------------------------ > > -------------- > H. >When we make the precepts a part of ourselves, and > not mere actions, then we have truly "taken the > precepts". It's what's in the mind that is critical. > > -------------- > > That sounds right, although I haven't read much about > taking precepts and I've never engaged in any ceremony of > that kind. We don't need a Tathagata to teach us > precepts. Jesus and St Augustine, the much maligned > Jains and countless others all taught perfectly good > precepts and many followers sincerely observe them (make > them a part of themselves). But precepts don't destroy > kilesas. As Robert K said; in a future life, (or maybe > later in this life), our strongest resolutions may be > forgotten and we will be back where we started. > > So, essentially, all those praiseworthy precepts might as > well be meaningless rites and rituals; They don't get us > out of samsara. It is only when we study nama and rupa > that, as Rob K said, our clinging to mere rite and ritual > is uncovered. Then we see that the similarity to St > Augustine and Co., is purely superficial. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course the precepts don't destroy defilements. But they can weaken them, and they can lead to calm, which, in turn supports concentration. The Buddha did include the precepts as part of the practice for good reason. -------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25441 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Victor - In a message dated 9/19/03 8:21:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > No, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I completely agree > with you. It is precisely because life is not a simple, singular > phenomenon, it is possible to save the child from scorpion without > killing. In other word, if, for some reason, you were in the > situation where a scorpion is about to sting a child, you wouldn't > be left with only two choices: 1)Do nothing or 2)Save the child by > killing the scorpion. In fact, you just listed two more choices: 3) > remove either the scorpion to where it would do no further harm, or > 4) remove the child to safety. And choice 3) and choice 4) are not > only better than choice 1) and choice 2). They are smarter. > > Now you are setting me up in the rabid dog situation, assuming the > only way to save the victim is to kill the rabid dog. What if I > don't accept that assumption at all? > > Like you said, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I agree > with that! > > Peace, > Victor > ============================ I think it is clear that each of us would always look for the choice that is most benefical and harmless. I would attempt solutions 3 or 4 for the scorpion as would you, and I would attempt an alternative to killing the rabid dog, as would you. the question remains as to what is the optimally moral thing to do when the alternatives are *not* available. The question is: Are the precepts training rules, or are they context-independent, absolutisms? Obviously I think the former. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25442 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/19/03 9:05:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Victor and Howard, > > I don't think ANYONE knows what they would REALLY do in extreme > circumstances. Lets hope I never have to decide what to do if a > rabid koala tries to get my elderly mother, or a platypus aims its > poisonous hind spur at SarahF ... I'll deal with it at that time, and > consequences be damned! But getting back to real life ... which > consists of living in rather boring humdrum situations.... the > Precepts are part of this everyday life. The Buddha set the > foundation of the ethical life of lay people firmly on these short > simple clear straightforward Training Rules. Minimising any of them, > looking for loopholes, or deciding in advance to bend them, doesn't > bode well for whatever structure one hopes to build on that > foundation, don't you think? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. I do recommend observing the precepts to the best of one's ability. (For disclaimers, see my previous posts. ;-) ------------------------------------------ > > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25443 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "What, then, is the development of concentration that is kusala (only)?" Hi Jon, Ah! Now I get it. What makes it jhana (kusala) is relinquishment, less is better. I'm sure there is a more eloquent and detailed way of saying it, but I think this sums it up. Ironically, a rather high degree of tenacity is necessary to develop one pointed concentration on anything, including letting-go, but sometimes it just happens. [Just guessing here.] How do you see it? Larry 25444 From: Andrew Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 9:34pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Dear All This has been such a busy thread, I can't resist making a few comments. As I see it, the precepts are part of the Raft - you need wisdom to decide when to pick them up and when to abandon them. They are "abandonable" and that's why they are called mere training rules. If they were not "abandonable", they would be absolutisms which, in some circumstances, would lead to wrong action. There are some interesting Zen stories about some of those circumstances ... but that's for another list, isn't it. The primary point of all this is that the most important question is not "have I followed the precepts" but "have I been wise". Buddha told the dog ascetic that, if he continued behaving like a dog, he would be reborn in the company of dogs. He tells us that, if we follow the precepts, we can expect a pleasant or favourable rebirth. But there is no guarantee that me in my favourable rebirth will pass into the Deathless before the dog ascetic does. And indeed, the Buddha warns that, if my following of the precepts turns into clinging to mere rules and rituals, this will be a fetter to my Release. Having been schooled in a non-Buddhist tradition in which prayers and rituals were rote-learned and could be recited half asleep, my personal inclination is against turning over rules in my head until they become meaningless. I prefer to try and take every situation as it arises and apply wise attention to what's going on. But everyone is different and I can quite easily imagine another person memorising the precepts in a useful manner. Metta, Andrew 25445 From: connie Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:24pm Subject: Re: Training precepts Dear Htoo and Sarah, S: You raise a number of very interesting and curious points in your post and it would be easy to dismiss them and overlook the textual support. I'm raising a few: H: > But time factor is not the same. Vinayawise, Vinaya in Buddha Gotama > time are the greatest in number. ( I apologise my not being able to > show evidence for this ). .... S: I've also seen references like this (Vinaya?) - and it being a reason for a Buddha's teachings to last longer. I just can't find the references and will be glad for any help. .... C: maybe this? Mike Olds - BuddhaDust.org The First Rule Adopted From the Vinaya-Pitaka, The Book of the Discipline, Volume I, (Suttavibhanga), PTS, I.B. Horner, trans. Now while the venerable Sariputta had gone into seclusion for meditation, this thought arose in his mind: "Of which enlightened ones, of which lords did the Brahma-life last long?" Then the venerable Sariputta, rising up at evening time from his meditation, came up to the Bhagava and having come up he greeted him and sitting to one side, the venerable Sariputta related the thought that he had had during his meditation. "Sariputta, while Vipassin was Buddha, while Sikhin was Buddha, and while Vessabhu was Buddha the Brahma-life did not last long. Sariputta, while Kakusandha was Buddha and while Konagamana was Buddha and while Kassapa was Buddha the Brahma-life lasted long." "Sariputta, the Buddha Vipassin and the Buddha Sikhin and the Buddha Vessabhu were idle in preaching dhamma in detail to the disciples; and these had few Suttas in prose or in prose and verse, Expositions, Songs, Verses of Uplift, Quotations, Jatakas, Miracles, Miscellanies; the course of training for the disciples was not made known, the Patimokkha [set of rules] was not set down. After the disappearance of these enlightened ones, after the disappearance of the disciples enlightened under these enlightened ones, those last disciples of the various clans, of various social strata, who had gone forth from various families, allowed this Brahma life rapidly to disappear. ... peace, connie 25446 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hello RobK, Howard, Victor, Ken, Andrew and All, RobK: Thanks for your post. My apologies for the delay in replying, but I was looking for something about choice and sila that I read recently and thought might be relevant to Precept keeping. I don't think you have missed any posts - I think there are a couple of sub- threads going, one discussing precepts in general and the relative value/necessity of adhering to them, and one discussing just the fifth precept in the same manner. I think, for me, there was also some 'background noise' from other lists where the fifth precept is often quoted as saying 'I vow not to drink to the point of being intoxicated' i.e. so anything less is O.K. It's interesting that 2600 years ago there was an advanced disciple (Sarakani/Saranani) who overcame an alcohol problem for sufficient time to have enough clarity to become a Sotapana. I feel happiness for him. But Sarakani is not me or anyone of us, and we are all far from hearing a Buddha explain the Teachings. I'm talking about us all, here and now, in this daily life. With regard to the Precepts mentioned in the Jivaka Sutta, I think the Buddha meant each of these precepts to carry equal importance. Not that number one was more important than number two, and number two more important than number three ... etc. If the Buddha said to refrain/abstain, maybe he meant just that - not just to do the best we can, but to strive earnestly. Regarding the Fifth: In the West, we live in societies that encourage and promote the use of alcohol. Advertising is aimed at niche markets. There are alcoholic products for those who see themselves as the 'cool' 'young' 'go-getter' group; for those who see themselves as the 'tough' 'sporting' 'courageous' group; for those who see themselves as the 'well bred' 'educated' 'higher social status' group; for those who see themselves as the 'working-class' 'salt of the earth' group; for those who see themselves as the 'health and weight conscious' - and so it goes on. Lobha and moha. Could it be that the values of Western Society lead to the minimising of the necessity of keep the fifth precept with as much determination as the other four? As an aside - in the Anguttara-Nikaaya, V. 1 77 it says: `Five trades should be avoided by a disciple: trading in arms, in living beings, in flesh, in intoxicating drinks, and in poison'. If we buy alcohol - what responsibility do we then have for being a condition for supporting the 'wrong livelihood' of another? What does our example say to others who know we follow the Teachings? Would it be fair to say that Sila is Ethical Action - which I see as the 'foundation' and 'expression' of bhavana.(mental development)? Practicing Vipassana allows me (at times) the clarity of mind to see things separately - to see the relationship between the actions that I do and the happiness or suffering in my immediate world. It teaches me about 'how' I contribute to the creation of more happiness or suffering. I think Ethics deals mainly with Speech and Body. Mind seems to be quicker (even instantaneous) to understand and transform its way of thinking - but Speech and Body are slower and seem to fall back into old habits and reactions, even though the Mind knows better. I, certainly, have done/said something completely stupid at times, even though I *knew* it was wrong. Given the slowness and recidivism of Speech and Body, I think the Precepts need to be adhered to as a means of training a fairly recalcitrant being - even at the risk of being called 'imitation' precept keeping or adhering to rites and rituals. Any comments? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 25447 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "What, then, is the development of concentration that is > kusala (only)?" > > Hi Jon, > > Ah! Now I get it. What makes it jhana (kusala) is relinquishment, > less is better. I was not talking about jhana as such, but 'ordinary' concentration, since I understood this to be the subject of our previous discussions (as to the factors that make this possible). My question is, given that none of the 7 'concentration' factors mentioned in the texts are specifically kusala ones (meaning that concentration is developed regardless of whether the consciousness is kusala or akusala), under what circumstances would the concentration that is being developed be kusala concentration and not akusala concentration? ...I'm sure there is a more eloquent and detailed way of > saying > it, but I think this sums it up. Ironically, a rather high degree > of > tenacity is necessary to develop one pointed concentration on > anything, > including letting-go, but sometimes it just happens. [Just guessing > here.] How do you see it? As I see it, only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can kusala concentration be developed. Does this make sense? Jon 25448 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:35am Subject: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Hello again ! I have been studying Abhidhamma at tortoise-like pace since I posted questions here a few month ago. Let me ask you a basic question, even though it must be nonsense from a practical viewpoint of samata and vipassana bhavana and it might have already been answered here . In theravada tradition, each of our cittas arises at one moment together with some cetasikas, but not with all the 52 cetasikas. Where are cetasikas which do not arise at the moment ? They should repeatedly arise and disappear from one moment( citta kkhanan ) to momen somewhere.(I know an arahant eradicated some negative cetasikas.) from lokuttaracitta ! 25449 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear Dhamma Friend ( ? Lokuttaracitta ), There are infinite Nama and Rupa. All are impermanent. In terms of their own characteristics there are 89 states of consciousness called '' Citta ''. Each Citta is always accompanied by appropriate Cetasikas. According to their own nature, there are 52 mental factors or Cetasikas that shape Citta to have its name. Nama and Rupa are arising and passing away at every moment. This is the nature. Abhidhamma is not like a game of scribble. It is not true to say that when 7 Cetasikas arise 45 are left. It is not true to say that when 10 is in use 42 are left. In real when only 7 Cetasika arise, it is true to say that 7 have arisen. When 22 Cetasika have arisen there will be characteristics of all those 22. And when 38 Cetasikas arise, there will be all the characters of 38. Actually there is no stock of Cetasikas or Cittas to arise. So there is nowhere unarising Cetasikas have to be placed. I do hope this message is clear enough for all beginners. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Hello again ! > > I have been studying Abhidhamma at tortoise-like pace since I > posted questions here a few month ago. > > Let me ask you a basic question, even though it must be nonsense from > a practical viewpoint of samata and vipassana bhavana and it might > have already been answered here . > > In theravada tradition, each of our cittas arises at one moment > together with some cetasikas, but not with all the 52 cetasikas. > Where are cetasikas which do not arise at the moment ? They should > repeatedly arise and disappear from one moment( citta kkhanan ) to > momen somewhere.(I know an arahant eradicated some negative > cetasikas.) > > > from lokuttaracitta ! 25450 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:48am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear Htoo and LC, Good question, excellent answer. Very clear - as you say - no storehouse/stock of cittas cetasiakas. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friend ( ? Lokuttaracitta ), > > There are infinite Nama and Rupa. All are impermanent. In terms of > their own characteristics there are 89 states of consciousness > called '' Citta ''. > > Each Citta is always accompanied by appropriate Cetasikas. According > to their own nature, there are 52 mental factors or Cetasikas that > shape Citta to have its name. > > Nama and Rupa are arising and passing away at every moment. This is > the nature. Abhidhamma is not like a game of scribble. It is not true > to say that when 7 Cetasikas arise 45 are left. It is not true to say > that when 10 is in use 42 are left. > > In real when only 7 Cetasika arise, it is true to say that 7 have > arisen. When 22 Cetasika have arisen there will be characteristics of > all those 22. And when 38 Cetasikas arise, there will be all the > characters of 38. > > Actually there is no stock of Cetasikas or Cittas to arise. So there > is nowhere unarising Cetasikas have to be placed. 25451 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Training precepts Dear Connie, (Htoo, Ken H and Azita). --- connie wrote: > Mike Olds - BuddhaDust.org > The First Rule > Adopted From the Vinaya-Pitaka, The Book of the Discipline, Volume I, > (Suttavibhanga), PTS, I.B. Horner, trans. > .... This is exactly what I had in mind. I was looking in the introductions and other parts but not at the right place in Bk of Discipline. That's useful to know that Mike O has part of the Bk of D on line too. (Hi Mike O, hope to hear from you one day if you're still keeping an eye on us. I think other friends like Mike N would be glad too;-)) Connie, how very fortunate we are that almost the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries (inc. Vinaya) have been so carefully preserved and with the Pali intact as Jim and Suan were commenting. Without all of this, it's unlikely we'd be having these discussions or opportunities for consideration and practice. I think we're also very fortunate to have all the translation help we have as well. Metta, Sarah P.S. No time for more now - I have an intensive yoga weekend, so very busy and tired. (Ken H & Azita, the visiting teacher is Peter Scott from Noosa who we took a class with when we were with you all. Azita, at your friend Michel's studio;-)). 25452 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine, ----------- C. > The Buddha set the foundation of the ethical life of lay people firmly on these short simple clear straightforward Training Rules. Minimising any of them, looking for loopholes, or deciding in advance to bend them, doesn't bode well for whatever structure one hopes to build on that foundation, don't you think? > ----------- No it doesn't bode well, but aren't we talking about undertaking to keep the precepts? Looking for loopholes in precepts is a different matter from simply not taking precepts. So what exactly is entailed in 'taking' precepts? Is it a solemn vow not to break them in the future? Does that imply that the consequences of killing, stealing, lying, illegal sex, drinking will be doubly onerous? That is, will the consequences be more severe than they would have been had we not taken a vow? If not, why not? If there is no obligation involved -- no added danger -- then let's all take the precepts. Let's take eight precepts. Sorry to be frivolous but what is the answer? Kind regards, Ken H PS If I don't promptly respond to your ressponse, it will be because, on Monday, Sue and I are heading off for a few days hol. To the Gold Coast! Don't laugh, there could be a perfectly good reason for travelling from the Sunshine Coast to the Gold Coast for a holiday. (If you know of one please tell me.) KHG 25453 From: Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/20/03 3:53:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > If the Buddha said to refrain/abstain, maybe > he meant just that - not just to do the best we can, but to strive > earnestly. > ========================== To strive to our utmost is exactly the do the best we can, it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25454 From: Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/20/03 8:28:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > So what exactly is entailed in 'taking' precepts? Is > it a solemn vow not to break them in the future? Does > that imply that the consequences of killing, stealing, > lying, illegal sex, drinking will be doubly onerous? > That is, will the consequences be more severe than they > would have been had we not taken a vow? > ======================== Unfortunately (or not), I would say so. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25455 From: Larry Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "As I see it, only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can kusala concentration be developed. Does this make sense?" Hi Jon, Makes sense to me. I agree. Larry 25456 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Howard, The thing is that I would not assume that the choices are, as in the baby-scorpion situation, only 1) do nothing, and 2) kill the scopion to save the baby. The five precepts are training rules which can be observed and kept in all situations, even though each situation is different from other and have different contexts. There is no need for, in a sense, a "super-rule" that can override the five precepts, namely: given certain situation, one of the five precepts can not be kept, thus it has to be broken. It is a hidden rule, a different value system that is different from that of the five precepts. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - 25457 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:01am Subject: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct Issue of Analysis: Is it sexual misconduct when a father seeks sexual relations with his daughter? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: When a father seeks sexual relations with his daughter it is surely sexual misconduct. The sources which support this conclusion: 1: Book of Discipline (I, Suttavibhaòga, Formal meeting (Saògaadisesa V). 2: Mangalattha Dípaní (Explanation of the Mangala Sutta, Minor Readings, no 5 by Ven. Sirimangala of Chiangmai), exposition on the Vinaya and on support to child and spouse. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: 1. The father has the duty to guard his daughter so that she is protected from sexual misconduct. But he himself has no right to have sensual contact with her. We read in the ³Book of Discipline² (I, Suttavibhaòga, Formal meeting, Saògådisesa V): ³Protected by the father means: the father protects, guards, wields supremacy, has her under control [1] .² We read in the ³Mangalattha Dípaní², exposition on the Vinaya, on sexual misconduct: ³It is not possible that the mother and the other people who protect the daughter guard her in order to themselves enjoy sensual contact with her. Those who protect her only prevent her from misbehaviour, forbidding her to go to other men. Therefore the mother and the other people who protect her do not have the right of having sensual contact with her.² Therefore, the father only has the duty to protect his daughter, but he himself has no right to have sensual contact with her. If he misbehaves with his daughter it is sexual misconduct. 2. We read in the Mangalattha Dípaní, in the exposition on support to child and spouse: ³The girl who is protected by her own clans-people and by those regarding the Dhamma, people who have gone forth on account of one teacher, and belong to the same group, is said to be protected by her own clans-people and by Dhamma [2].² This shows us that even if a girl is without mother, father, brother, sister or other family members who could protect and guard her, there must be people of her own clan, or people of a group she belongs to who protect her. Thus, if a man abuses that girl it is sexual misconduct. 3. We should undestand that there are different degrees in the eradication of akusala. The monk should abstain altogether from sexual relations. With regard to laypeople, there are unmarried laypeople who do not engage in sexual relations and there are married laypeople who have sexual relations. The Buddha prescribed moral rules for monks and he taught morality to laypeople, in accordance with their status and inclinations. He laid down the precepts for laypople such as the precept concerning sexual misconduct, so that people with moral shame and fear of blame (hiri and ottappa, fear of the consequences of evil) would understand to what extent akusala kamma is a completed action (kamma patha) or not. However, someone may commit a bad deed motivated by defilements which far exceed the generally accepted moral conduct among human beings, such as in the case of a father who abuses his daughter. This concerns a person who has no moral sense at all, who behaves like an animal. This is evil which is more serious than a man¹s misconduct with someone else¹s spouse. 4. The committing of akusala kamma patha does not have anything to do with what people in society regard as right or wrong. The transgression in the way of misconduct of a father towards his daughter motivated by unwholesome intention (akusala cetanå) is certainly sexual misconduct. ****** Footnotes 1. The same is said with regard to the mother, parents, and members of the family. The Commentary explains in which way the mother protects her, and this also regards the father and members of the family. As to protects: she lets her go nowhere. As to guards: she puts her in a place so (well) guarded that other people cannot see (her). As to wields supremacy: restrains her from living in lodgings of her own choice, and overrules her. As to: has her under control: Saying Œdo this, do not do that.¹ 2. This is said in the Commentary to the Vinaya. Her co-religionists protect her. ******* (translated from Thai) Nina. 25458 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine, I agree, and I would say that there is no need to minimise any of them, look for loopholes, or decide in advance to bend them, in everyday life or extreme ethical circumstances. The five precepts is the bedrock of the development of the virtue, there is no need for one to undermine it in any circumstance, unless he or she chooses to. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor and Howard, [snip] 25459 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine and all, I agree with you. This is how I see it: The five precepts are rules or guidelines for refraining from unwholesome and or unethical actions or behaviors. They are clear- cut and unambiguous, and it is up to one to take up and live by them. The five precepts can be observed and kept in all circumstances. Precepts are not rituals to be performed, and keeping precepts is not ritualistic. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello RobK, Howard, Victor, Ken, Andrew and All, [snip] 25460 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear Htoo Naing and rjkjp1 Thank you very much for your reply ! Please let me continue. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friend ( ? Lokuttaracitta ), > > There are infinite Nama and Rupa. All are impermanent. In terms of > their own characteristics there are 89 states of consciousness > called '' Citta ''. > > Each Citta is always accompanied by appropriate Cetasikas. According > to their own nature, there are 52 mental factors or Cetasikas that > shape Citta to have its name. > > Nama and Rupa are arising and passing away at every moment. This is > the nature. Abhidhamma is not like a game of scribble. It is not true > to say that when 7 Cetasikas arise 45 are left. It is not true to say > that when 10 is in use 42 are left. > > In real when only 7 Cetasika arise, it is true to say that 7 have > arisen. When 22 Cetasika have arisen there will be characteristics of > all those 22. And when 38 Cetasikas arise, there will be all the > characters of 38. > > Actually there is no stock of Cetasikas or Cittas to arise. So there > is nowhere unarising Cetasikas have to be placed. I do hope this > message is clear enough for all beginners. Will some of the unarising Cetasikas suddenly arise depending only on the other nama and rupa without their own continuity of arising and disappearance? Can they arise only from the external causes without their own continuum of arising and disappearance? How about anusaya (latent tendencies) ? They should repeat their own arising and disappearance without interruption somewhere even though all of them do not always arise to sense-doors and mind-door of ordinary beings ,because only a Buddha and arahant have eradicated them. Looking forward to hearing from your answer! from lokuttaracitta 25461 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Formations - 'choice' - the creative power of Intention? Dear All, I was considering the first part of the Paticcasamuppada formula ... the part about 'Ignorance' conditions 'formations' and 'formations' conditions 'consciousness' .... 'formations' seems to have a few meanings, one of which is 'anything that is constructed/made up from other bits and pieces'. Things like a computer, a house, a body, a feeling/emotion, a breath etc are all seeming wholes made up of complex systems which are in turn imbedded in other complex systems that are in turn imbedded... on and on. But somewhere (and I can't find it again) I read that the most important of the 'formations' was 'choice' which is the creative power of 'intention' made up from our inner drives, yearnings, terrors etc. Can anyone give, or point to, further info.? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25462 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Chris, Azita and all --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > Azita has had some difficulty posting this first part of the > article > by her friend Chittapala - and has asked me to forward it. Any > comments would be most welcome: > > "THE SEXUAL ETHIC OF THE MIDDLE WAY > > by Chittapala Thanks for arranging for this. It's good to be hearing again, if indirectly, from my old friend Chittapala. Will comments be passed back to him? It would be good if he could respond later. Reading this article, I suspect that Chitt. and I have somewhat different ideas about the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. To my reading of the texts, these are the mental factors that accompany a moment of path-consciousness, and at a moment of supramundane path consciousness all 8 factors are present, while at a moment of mundane path consciousness 5 (or 6) of them are present. As regards the factor of Right Action, this is one of the 3 restraints and, like the other 2 restraints, it only arises as a path factor when there is an occasion for restraint from akusala of a particular kind (and when certain other conditions are present). Now not all akusala action is action the restraint from which constitutes Right Action as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. The restraint must be restraint from action of a certain degree of unwholesomeness (i.e., killing, lying or sexual misconduct). Most of our actions during the day are motivated by akusala of one kind or another, including when we eat and drink, walk around, speak and do our work. But restraint from these akusala actions would not be 'Right Action' of the Noble Eightfold Path. As regard sexual activity, only certain kinds of activity are mentioned in the teachings as action that is particularly to be avoided (as in the precept). So it does not seem curious to me that only restraint from sexual activity that amounts to misconduct should constitute Right Action of the Noble Eightfold Path. Given that the other instances of Right Action involve restraint from killing and lying, it would seem somewhat anomalous if the situation were otherwise. On the general question of 'sexual ethics', Chittapala says: "Throughout his dispensation Buddha frequently spoke about the dangers of sensual desire, how it can create suffering in this and other lives, and how it is a major obstruction to spiritual development." I think that when the Buddha spoke abut the dangers of sensual desire he was referring to desire of any degree for the objects of all the 5 senses, that is, our old friends visible-object, audible-object, etc., and not specifically to carnal desires/lust. Such desire *is* suffering. Finally, I would hesitate to agree with the idea that all sense-desire is regarded in the texts as an obstacle to spiritual development, since everyone starts from a position of having sense desires and other kilesas in abundance, and their eradication comes only when full enlightenment has been attained. It might be more helpful to consider sense desires as unwholesome tendencies that can be known for what they are, as and when they arise, by developed insight. Jon 25463 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry, --- Larry wrote: > Jon: "As I see it, only if kusala of one kind or another is being > developed can kusala concentration be developed. Does this make > sense?" > > Hi Jon, > > Makes sense to me. I agree. > > Larry So our aim should be to develop more kusala rather than to develop more concentration. Would you agree?. Jon 25464 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hello KenH, ----------- C. > The Buddha set the foundation of the ethical life of lay people firmly on these short simple clear straightforward Training Rules. Minimising any of them, looking for loopholes, or deciding in advance to bend them, doesn't bode well for whatever structure one hopes to build on that foundation, don't you think? > ----------- KH: No it doesn't bode well, but aren't we talking about undertaking to keep the precepts? Looking for loopholes in precepts is a different matter from simply not taking precepts. CJF: No - we aren't talking about 'taking' precepts. Don't try your Lawyer's tricks on me HG - tangentally switching subjects, starting a debate, and then ducking out for a few days at Surfers or Coolangatta :-) :-)) We were discussing whether the Buddha's words in the Jivaka Sutta where he used the word 'pañivirato' (meaning 'abstain')when listing EACH of the five training rules, meant just that. Have fun in the sun, remember to slip slop slap (an early Spring 30 C there todsy) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 25465 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Howard, ----------- > > will the consequences be more severe than they > > would have been had we not taken a vow? > > > ======================== > Unfortunately (or not), I would say so. ------------------ As you say, "unfortunately or not." On the unfortunate side, taking a vow has created the potential for greater akusala. On the fortunate side, it seemed like the honourable thing to do at the time. It's a murky area isn't it? Don't you agree that the safest approach is to treat the Dhamma, not as a prescription but as a description? In other words, forget about being the kusala hero (Captain Kusala), who risks hell and high water in order to make the world a better place. Learn what is kusala kamma and, what is akusala kamma, what is right understanding and what is wrong understanding. If the situation permits (if the conditions are right), then here and now, we will put what have learned into practice. That will happen before we even know it, let alone before we can vow to do it. I think that is not only the safest way, it's the only way. Kind regards, Ken H 25466 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:17pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Dear Christine, Let me speak generally around this topic. I brought it up with Ajahn sujin yesterday. I was wrong about taking a sip of beer being akusala kammapatha as these only include the 10 unwholesome actions and drinking is not among them. It is true though that a sotapanna would never knowingly drink alcohol unless it was part of medicine. And although taking a sip of beer is unlikely to corrupt one immediately, the danger lies in that one sip might lead to more(and more). So I think so far no one is trying to encourage drinking among Buddhists. What Ken (and Andrew too) have been pointing too is that merely abstaining from drinking is not the path. It can even obscure the path if it becomes an aspect of silabataparamasa. The Sammohavinodani (page227): "The ordinary man is like a madman and without considering 'Is this right or not' and aspiring by means of clinging ...he performs any of the kinds of kamma [good or bad)... Thus silabataparamasa [clinging to rules and rituals]is a condition for all three, namely the sense desire world, fine material and immaterial kinds of existence with their divisions and what they include" Thus silabataparamasa can lead to both good and bad states, it can lead even to the highest pleasant feelings experienced in jhana but it cannot lead out of samsara. All ways of kusala (wholesome) can support the development of insight, but they won't if they are clung to or mistaken as the path. -------------------------------- Christine: It's interesting that 2600 years ago there was an advanced disciple > (Sarakani/Saranani) who overcame an alcohol problem for sufficient > time to have enough clarity to become a Sotapana. I feel happiness > for him. But Sarakani is not me or anyone of us, and we are all far > from hearing a Buddha explain the Teachings. I'm talking about us > all, here and now, in this daily life. ______ Sarakanni died with the alcohol still on his breath. How did he overcome - forever- his problem is what we should want to understand. And that can have been no other way than by insighting the anattaness, the uncontrollability of arising dhammas, so that self view and hence also silabataparamasa were eradicated. And this way is identical 2600 years or now. If we hear true Dhamma from the Buddha directly or we study his teachings now, whether they are understood or not depends on various conditions. On this list from time to time we are fortunate to have, for example, Dan Dalthorp or Kenhoward give subtle pointers into the way silabataparamasa is working in our 'Buddhist' life. __________ Christine: Practicing Vipassana allows me (at times) the clarity of mind to see > things separately - to see the relationship between the actions that > I do and the happiness or suffering in my immediate world. It > teaches me about 'how' I contribute to the creation of more happiness > or suffering. ______________ Is this practicing vipassana or is it only thinking about the way we think things occur? If there is vipassana there is no I, there are only differnt conditions. One moment anger, next moment seeing . One moment resolving not to drink, the next clinging to that idea, the next having conceit about abstaining. This is not singling you out, it is just how it works for everyone. It is always good to keep the precepts, all religions encourage this to some degree and its results can be heavenly or human rebirth. But this is still trapped in samsara and so we need to push more to look into the moment and so let go of all hidden degrees of 'me'. I think if no one is kind enough to explain about the way silabataparamsa keeps arising then it will always remain hidden and we might live our whole life divorced from the depth of the Dhamma, even though we keep the strictest degree of outward sila. Robertk 25467 From: Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "As I see it, only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can kusala concentration be developed. Does this make sense?" Larry: "Makes sense to me. I agree." Jon: "So our aim should be to develop more kusala rather than to develop more concentration. Would you agree?." Hi Jon, That seems like leaping logic to me. I'm highly reluctant to say what anyone's aim "should" be. If you want to follow the prescribed 8-fold path then you should develop jhana. If you can't do that then at least develop kusala. Larry 25468 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:32am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Nina and Dhamma Friends, To my knowledge: The Bhikkhu has to be free from any sex ( from three Kammadvara of Kaya, Vaci and Mano _ Abrahmacariya ). This is no need to say. For lay people who are engaged in sexual relation can have sex with their lawful partners. Otherwise any sex will be sexual misconduct. Any one, male or female, who has sex with married person who is not his or her own legal partner is said to commit sexual misconduct and will definitely suffer sooner or later. Married male is said to commit sexual misconduct when he has sex with a female who is not his wife. This includes all females including his own daughters, grand-duaghters, sisters and so on. Married female is said to commit sexual misconduct when she has sex with a male who is not her own husband. This includes all males including her own father, own sons, own brothers and so on. A single male, who has sex with a female who is married, is said to commit sexual misconduct. This is no doubt a sexual misconduct. Again, '' when a single male has sex with a female who is not married is sexual misconduct '' raises a question with doubt. Law and legal views are different from Abhidhamma and Vinaya. The above case is said to commit '' Karmesumicchacara '' or sexual misconduct. Because even though female party is not married she is under control of her owners like 1. father 2. mother 3. brothers and sisters 4. society 5. monastry or any religious team 6. government including very local like 10 householderer 7.relatives 8. judges In above case, even though the female may give consent, which is legally lawful, the male is said to commit sexual misconduct from views of Abhidhamma and Vinaya. A single female who has sex with a married male is said to commit sexual misconduct even though law may differ in different societies, in which polygamy is being practised. She may legally be right in some societies where polygamy is a norm. But she is not from the views of Abhidhamma and Vinaya. A single female who has sex with a single male is free of sexual misconduct because she does possess her sexuality. The reverse is not true as sexuality is controlled by owners. With Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dhamma Issue no 11. > > Sexual Misconduct > > Issue of Analysis: Is it sexual misconduct when a father seeks sexual > relations with his daughter? ----------------------------------------- > This shows us that even if a girl is without mother, father, brother, sister > or other family members who could protect and guard her, there must be > people of her own clan, or people of a group she belongs to who protect her. > Thus, if a man abuses that girl it is sexual misconduct. ------------------------------------------- > 3. We should undestand that there are different degrees in the eradication > of akusala. He laid down > the precepts for laypople such as the precept concerning sexual misconduct, > so that people with moral shame and fear of blame (hiri and ottappa, fear of > the consequences of evil) would understand to what extent akusala kamma is a > completed action (kamma patha) or not. ----------------------------------- > 4. The committing of akusala kamma patha does not have anything to do with > what people in society regard as right or wrong. The transgression in the > way of misconduct of a father towards his daughter motivated by unwholesome > intention (akusala cetanå) is certainly sexual misconduct. > > ****** > Footnotes > > 1. The same is said with regard to the mother, parents, and members of the > family. The Commentary explains in which way the mother protects her, and > this also regards the father and members of the family. --------------------------- > (translated from Thai) > Nina. 25469 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:53am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Christine, -snip- > I think if no one is kind enough to explain about the way > silabataparamsa keeps arising then it will always remain hidden and we > might live our whole life divorced from the depth of the Dhamma, even > though we keep the strictest degree of outward sila. > > > Robertk Dear Rob, I would like to know more about silabbata-paramasa. I have been listening to tapes and A. Sujin talks about s-p on a very momentary level and at that level I am a bit lost. In the dictionary it states 'attachment/clinging to rules and rituals'. Now, can this mean that if I think I can have awareness by trying to name or 'catch' the present moment, that this is s-p? Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? I ask this bec. I think the precepts can be broken easily, if the conditions are right. Are you still in Thailand? Patience, courage and good cheer. 25470 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:14am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear LC, Thanks for your interesting and demanding question. Here is my inline text to your reply. I hope it is clear to all. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing and rjkjp1 > > Thank you very much for your reply ! > > Please let me continue.( LC ) --------------------- Sure, we will do ( Htoo ) ----------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friend ( ? Lokuttaracitta ), ---------------------------------------------- > Will some of the unarising Cetasikas suddenly arise depending only on the other nama and rupa without their own continuity of arising and disappearance? ( LC ) ---------------------------------- Yes, exactly. To peel out Ditthi and to have Samma-Ditthi or the right view, the Dhamma of Nama and Rupa have to be crystal clear to the viewer. If it is clear, then Samma-Ditthi arises. Any Nama or Rupa has their own characteristics. They have their own function. There are signs that make the viewer known that there is Nama or Rupa. There are immediate causes for Nama and Rupa. As I said, there is no stock for Nama Dhamma. So the unarising Cetasikas ( the term you used ) did not arise because there was not any cause. The unarising Cetasikas are Nama Dhamma. So they have their own characteristics. They have their own function. If they arose, the arising of them will be evident to the viewer. They have immediate causes for their arising. Immediate causes for arising of Cetasika are Nama and Rupa. So what you asked is right. They arise suddenly depending only on the other Nama and Rupa. Citta arises and falls away. Next Citta arises and falls away again. This may be assumed by some as Citta's own continuity. This is the place where Atta and Anatta problem arises. Next Citta arises because of its cause. If there is no cause, the next Citta will not arise. This is entirely true in case of '' Cuti Citta of Arahats ''. Rupa also arises and falls away. Thinking of continuum is just a concept.Saying this may encourage Attavadhi to argue more and more on the matter. '' If there is no continuum, how does identity work? '' Identity is the matter of Sanna( memory ) and which is a Cetasika. It has its own characteristics and own function. When it arises it is evident to the viewer. It has to arise because of the cause. ( Htoo ) P.S : I hope moderator would add more to this arguement. ------------------------------------------------------- Can they arise only from the external causes without their own continuum of arising and disappearance? ( LC ) ---------------------------------------------- This is already answered above. There actually is no continuum even though it seems there is. ( Htoo ) --------------------------------------------------- > How about anusaya (latent tendencies) ? They should repeat their own arising and disappearance without interruption somewhere even though all of them do not always arise to sense-doors and mind- door of ordinary beings ,because only a Buddha and arahant have eradicated them. Looking forward to hearing from your answer! from lokuttaracitta -------------------------- Anusaya are Dhamma that have potentials to arise when circumstances favour. These Dhamma are some of the most difficult Dhamma that can be realised and understood. Yes, as you said only Arahatta Magga will eradicate these Anusaya. Anusaya is a '' name ''. It does not arise nor disappear. But it does exist and will end instantaneously at the time of Arahatta Magga Citta arises. ( Htoo ) P.S : Will someone please quote Anusaya from literature? May all beings free from confusion and Miccha-Ditthi. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25471 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:29am Subject: Re: Formations - 'choice' - the creative power of Intention? Dear Christine and all, Paticcasamuppada or dependent origination is a circle without any start or beginning. But conventionally it is discussed on Avijja or Moha or ignorance to start with. '' Avijja Paccaya Sankhara Sankhara Paccaya Vinnana Vinnana Paccaya Nama-Rupam.....Sambhavanti.'' Absence of Vijja is Avijja. As there is no Vijja Nana, Sankhara are being done. Sankhara rae '' delibrate actions ''. Any Sankhara comprises Cetana Cetasika or volition or delibrate will. So it can be said that Cetana is wilful action. All Kammapatha( Kamma-generating ) actions at three Kammadvara of Kaya, Vaci and Mano are are always always accompanied by Cetana or volition. I hope this message is clear enough to understand and further opinions are welcome. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > I was considering the first part of the Paticcasamuppada formula ... > the part about 'Ignorance' conditions 'formations' and 'formations' > conditions 'consciousness' .... 'formations' seems to have a few > meanings, one of which is 'anything that is constructed/made up from > other bits and pieces'. Things like a computer, a house, a body, > a feeling/emotion, a breath etc are all seeming wholes made up of > complex systems which are in turn imbedded in other complex systems > that are in turn imbedded... on and on. > But somewhere (and I can't find it again) I read that the most > important of the 'formations' was 'choice' which is the creative > power of 'intention' made up from our inner drives, yearnings, > terrors etc. Can anyone give, or point to, further info.? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25472 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:08am Subject: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ONE ! (At the last episode...) The Paramattha Dhammas are the main structure of all Buddhism and the golden bricks that Reality are made of. White T-Shirts, Socks, Pants, Toothbrush, shaving blade... At the first glance, these Dhammas are classified in two main categories: the first one is nipphanannarupa, produced by the catuja (kamma, citta, utu, ahara), that are "Real" because they are material and entirely grounded on Rupa. Niyama! Niyama! Niyama! (And now, the conclusion...) ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ONE ! - AFTER A MUTTON SCÉANCE, WHAT´S REALITY ? Bootcamp! Living at the barracks, among other doughboys, it´s a matter of adaptability: one must get good manners on standing up at bed, to attend the calling of Nature in the common bathroom,to shave one´s own face (Rasée la figure, in French),to put on the camp uniform and to get a good place to take the breakfast! In all these acts, there is a constant and definite set of signals and messages that are shared with the speaker and the listener at a two-way channel of communication. When the Sergeant or Lieutennat loudly verbalize off the instructions, our ears must take these set of signals, and after a very quick ellaboration put the limbs on action as fast as possible! Are these affairs a set of "Real" things ? At this point of our journey, we will meet the second group of Paramattha Dhammas: Ten elements that are considered not real (anipphanannarupa). 1. akasa - space Communication (viññatti) - 2. bodily language (kayaniññatti) 3. vocal intimation (vagiviññatti) These two are produced by mind. After the first Viññatti - the space between myself and others, and between myself and the sergeant, the scene of all communication act, we get the first signals of further communicantion when the sergeant boldly looks at us and begins to speak. Our minds also begin to prepare us to understand and to act! And finally, after a nanosecond of suspense, comes out the order by the sergeant - a definite vocal intimation (Vagiviññatti)which you must obey!!!! And there are also other mutable material qualities: 4. lightness (lahuta) 5. softness (muduta) 6. adaptability (kamma¤¤ata) These three are produced without kamma. You all, noble company of Dhamma Students, could try out these experiment: standing on foot entirely motionless do FEEL the lightness, softness and adaptability (or the contraries of these!!!) of your clothes, your boots and the air you breathe! All these factors are made without any material action, or Kamma!!! Other Characteristics of material qualities (lakkhanarupa) 7. material productivity - beginning (upacaya) 8. continuity (santati) 9. decay (jarata) 10. impermanence (aniccata) All in this world of Dukkha rises and falls at the same patterns: from upacaya to anicatta, the food dish in front of my eyes at the begin of lunch is filled (or produced by the cook) of rice, beams and meat. Time runs out. And at last the food dish is empty of mundane food. All material processes in world follow up the same path, that´s not "real" as a material and finite thing. Finally, we get a full list of Paramattha Dhammas: The first 18 plus these 10 make the classical and canonical 28 rupas! And I´ll become a vegetarian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O Noble flock of Dhamma followers! Don´t deny my advice: stay tuned for more Dhamma Days at the Military Bootcamp !!!!!!!!! Next Episode: "ICARO DAMMA´S DIARY, CHAPTER TWO: The FLEEEEEECE of a good soldier is a good uniform!" Mettaya, Ícaro 25473 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry Sorry about the leaping logic. Let me try again ;-)). We agreed in a previous post that only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can concentration that is kusala be developed. In other words, when kusala is developed, so is concentration that is kusala. So for example, when kusala of the level of samatha is developed, so is the kusala concentration that supports jhana (absorption concentration). Any disagreement here? Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > Jon: "So our aim should be to develop more kusala rather than to > develop > more concentration. Would you agree?." > > Hi Jon, > > That seems like leaping logic to me. I'm highly reluctant to say > what > anyone's aim "should" be. If you want to follow the prescribed > 8-fold > path then you should develop jhana. If you can't do that then at > least develop kusala. > > Larry 25474 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:13am Subject: Different Path to Enlightenment Hey Guys, For those not interested in meditation, here is an alternative method leading to enlightenment (supposedly) you might want to try ;-): http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0920japan- marathon20.html Metta, James 25475 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:21am Subject: About Egypt Hey All, I have not written anything about Egypt in a while because I am just finding it to be a hopelessly stupid, backward, and apathetic society. But those may be just foreigner's reactions/culture shock. After a while I may get a balanced perspective and then I can make intelligent observations. Now I think all you would get from me would be rantings. Metta, James 25476 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim Thanks very much for unravelling the references in the translation for me. So, 'samatha' in this context is ekaggataa cetasika (but with emphasis on its 'quiet' aspect). Thanks also for pointing out this new (to me) meaning of samatha. I can see I will need to be more careful in future when comparing samatha and concentration. Regarding samatha in the context of samatha-vipassana or samatha bhavana (and samadhi as in the samadhi section of Visuddhi-Magga), my understanding is that this is a reference to kusala citta accompanied by pannaa but not of the level of insight (i.e., not having paramattha dhamma as object). Is this how you see it? Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > Jim > > > > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, .. > The translation of 'samatha' in the list is 'quiet'. This is > explained > at Dhs §395 in the Pali but the translation on p.95 refers you back > to §375 on p. 92 which in turn refers back to §11 on p. 11 for > 'self-collectedness' (cittass'ekaggataa). Instead of calling them > cetasikas, the Dhs calls them aruupino (immaterial) dhammas in > order > to include citta. There are many more aruupino dhammas (about twice > as > many) as the standard list of 52 cetasikas. The Expositor explains > how > all these extra dhammas (except citta) are reduced to the list of > 52. > Samatha is included in the cetasika one-pointedness (ekaggataa). > Buddhist Psychological Ethics is lacking in some respects eg. Mrs. > Rhys Davids didn't bother to translate the last ka.n.da or chapter > as she didn't think it had any value!! ... > 'steadiness of consciousness' (citta.t.thiti or cittassa .thiti) is > also included in the description of one-pointedness of mind and > samatha in the Dhs. 25477 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Jim) - > Lists aside, wouldn't it be appropriate to say that while > Jeffrey > Dahmer was enjoying a large, satisfying dinner, his calm mindstates > were akusala? > ;-) The point, it seems to me, is that evil actions can instill > delightful > calm in some people, and that calm is certainly unwholesome. > > With metta, > Howard I'm sure you're right here. But unwholesome mindstates are the norm for everyone, it's just that there can be considerable differences in degree, so it shouldn't be assumed that the concentration of upright, law-abiding folks like you and me (hopefully) is kusala rather than akusala, even where the object is one we regard as a 'kusala' object. Sounds tough, I know, but better to face up to the size of the problem than assume (wrongly) a better case ;-)) Jon 25478 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:42am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear Htoo Naing I appreciate your great metta ! > The unarising Cetasikas are Nama Dhamma. So they have their own > characteristics. They have their own function. If they arose, the > arising of them will be evident to the viewer. They have immediate > causes for their arising. > > Immediate causes for arising of Cetasika are Nama and Rupa. So what > you asked is right. They arise suddenly depending only on the other > Nama and Rupa. > Citta arises and falls away. Next Citta arises and falls away again. > This may be assumed by some as Citta's own continuity. This is the > place where Atta and Anatta problem arises. Next Citta arises because > of its cause. If there is no cause, the next Citta will not arise. > This is entirely true in case of '' Cuti Citta of Arahats ''. > > Rupa also arises and falls away. Thinking of continuum is just a > concept.Saying this may encourage Attavadhi to argue more and more on > the matter. > > '' If there is no continuum, how does identity work? '' > > Identity is the matter of Sanna( memory ) and which is a Cetasika. It > has its own characteristics and own function. When it arises it is > evident to the viewer. It has to arise because of the cause. ( Htoo ) > > P.S : I hope moderator would add more to this arguement. I think this is a matter of what is the definition of the continuum as well as a matter of our sanna. If it means " permanence and ever-lasting without any change" , it can lead to attan or soul taught in some religions. However when the word used in theravadin like citta-santati, should it mean " ever-lasting change with ariseng and dissapearance at every moment (but which will come to an end at a next moment when cuti-citta of an arahat arise)" ? If so, there seems no room to have a view of attavadin when we understand the difference. > > How about anusaya (latent tendencies) ? They should repeat their > own arising and disappearance without interruption somewhere even > though all of them do not always arise to sense-doors and mind- > door of ordinary beings ,because only a Buddha and arahant have > eradicated them. > > > Anusaya are Dhamma that have potentials to arise when circumstances > favour. These Dhamma are some of the most difficult Dhamma that can > be realised and understood. Yes, as you said only Arahatta Magga will > eradicate these Anusaya. > > Anusaya is a '' name ''. It does not arise nor disappear. But it does > exist and will end instantaneously at the time of Arahatta Magga > Citta arises. ( Htoo ) Yes the word anusaya is a concept. Can a concept not be said " it exists" in an ulitimate sense of theravadin"? So let me talk about lobha as one of paramattha dhammas. Lobha does exist in ordinary beings and will be eradicated the moment when arahatta magga citta arises. So where is the lobha before arahatta magga citta arises? Where is the potenciality to arise ? As long as lobha or the potenciality exists, it must exist (repeatedly arise and dissapear)somewhere even when it does not arise to our sense-doors and mind-door. There shoud exist behind sense- doors and mind-doors the lobha/ potenciality which will have the immediate causes for its arising. Otherwise there is no difference on lobha between arhants and ordinary beings when lobha of ordinary beings do not arise. Where is the lobha or the potenciality ? Looking forward to hearing from you all !! from LC 25479 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/20/03 9:07:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Don't you agree that the safest approach is to treat the > Dhamma, not as a prescription but as a description? In > other words, forget about being the kusala hero (Captain > Kusala), who risks hell and high water in order to make > the world a better place. Learn what is kusala kamma and, > what is akusala kamma, what is right understanding and > what is wrong understanding. If the situation permits (if > the conditions are right), then here and now, we will put > what have learned into practice. That will happen before > we even know it, let alone before we can vow to do it. I > think that is not only the safest way, it's the only way. > > ======================= No, I think the Dhamma *is* a prescription and, optimally, we will take the medicine as prescribed. Sometimes - most of the time - we will fall short, but we should attempt to do our utmost, without beating ourselves over the head each time we forget and leave the medicine on the shelf. We do have to at least be aware when we forget, especially when we "forget" on purpose! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25480 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Quote For Anusaya-s Dear Saya Htootinnaing, Lokuttaracitta, Robert, Mike and all How are you? As Saya Htootinnaing said, cetasikas can arise only when a consciousness has a chance to arise. Cetasikas being inactive mean cetasikas not arising. They do not arise outside a consciousness. Anusaya-s are merely eradicatable cetasikas (maggehi pahaatabba cetasika-s). Even though the term "anusaya" sounds invisibly lying somewhere, this is only for figurative purposes. That is to say, they are nowhere to be found outside unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala cittaani) that arise in the present. The following is the Suttam quote for the three root cetasika anusaya- s. "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. "Friend Visaakha, indeed, the latent lust tends to arise in the comfort feeling, the latent violence tends to arise in the miserable feeling, and the latent ignorance tends to arise in the neutral feeling." Section 465, Muulapa.n.naasa Pali, Majjhimanikaayo. In the above quote, the latent lust means greed (lobho) that hasn't been eradicated by Arahatta magga ñaa.na. The latent violence means anger (doso) that hasn't been eradicated by Anaagaami magga ñaa.na. The latent ignorance means ingnorance (moho) that hasn't been eradicated by Arahatta magga ñaa.na. In short, the adjective "latent" for the term "anusaya" means "hasn't been eradicated by magga ñaa.na-s or magga citta-s". The term "latent" does not mean the literal sense of lying and waiting invisibly somewhere. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear LC, Anusaya is a '' name ''. It does not arise nor disappear. But it does exist and will end instantaneously at the time of Arahatta Magga Citta arises. ( Htoo ) P.S : Will someone please quote Anusaya from literature? > May all beings free from confusion and Miccha-Ditthi. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 25482 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:37am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi Azita, I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at your questions... [We are fortunate to have Rob around to correct me if I screw up.] Q: Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? --> Dan: Not necessarily, but if you believe that liberation can come about by adhering to the 5 precepts, that would be silabbataparamasa. It is good to adhere to the precepts because breaking them can lead to tremendous suffering for both the doer and the done to's, but this is substantially different from saying that following the precepts is in any way the development of wisdom or leads to liberation. In fact, the arrow between wisdom and precepts points the other way -- one with refined wisdom does not break precepts, but adhering to precepts does not lead to wisdom. Getting the direction of the arrow backwards and thinking that wisdom is developed by adhering to precepts and rituals is called silabbataparamasa. This remains true whether those precepts are the pañca sila; a rule like "I will catch the present moment by trying to catch the present moment"; or a ritual like sitting in a corner with eyes closed, legs crossed, and attention directed to a particular sensation or concept. Azita: I think the precepts can be broken easily... --> Dan: Agreed. But, keeping the 5 precepts is very important, so we should try hard to do so even though it is extremely difficult to do. However, thinking such efforts (no matter how important and valuable and good they may be) will lead to liberation is silabbataparamasa. Dan > I would like to know more about silabbata-paramasa. > I have been listening to tapes and A. Sujin talks about s-p on a > very momentary level and at that level I am a bit lost. > In the dictionary it states 'attachment/clinging to rules and > rituals'. > Now, can this mean that if I think I can have awareness by trying > to name or 'catch' the present moment, that this is s-p? > > Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? I ask this bec. > I think the precepts can be broken easily, if the conditions are > right. > > Are you still in Thailand? > > Patience, courage and good cheer. 25483 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:40am Subject: Cutting Back Hi, all - Once before I noted that too much of my energy and time are being dedicated to e-mail list interaction at the expense of what I call "formal practice". This is reoccurring. So, once again I'll be cutting back a bit - not going anywhere, not cutting *out*, but definitely cutting back. Meanwhile I intend to improve the regularity and frequency of my sitting meditation, I've signed up for a brief retreat (months off), and I hope soon to be visiting a nearby monastery at which some quite worthy monks reside. Still in touch, and with metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25484 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, > Jim > > Thanks very much for unravelling the references in the translation > for me. So, 'samatha' in this context is ekaggataa cetasika (but > with emphasis on its 'quiet' aspect). When we are using the classification system of the 52 cetasikas as enumerated in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, one would have to include 'samatha' under the general term 'ekaggataa'. But in the Atthasalini (Expositor, p. 178), the general term used is 'samaadhi' (concentration) which is classified in 6 places (in all kusala states) as follows: 1. cittass'ekaggataa (a jhaana-factor) 2. samaadhindriya (a faculty) 3. sammaasamaadhi (a path-factor) 4. samaadhibala (a power or strength) 5. samatha (calm) 6. avikkhepa (non-distraction) In akusala states, no.3 is changed into micchaasamaadhi. Dhs §1189 defines cetasika dhammas as vedanaakkhandha, sa~n~naakkhandha, sa"nkhaarakkhandha. I think one can refer to any one of the above six categories of samaadhi as a cetasika dhamma in the Abhidhammic system of the Dhammasangani but in the other simplified system one can only use the 'ekaggataa' term for all six. N.B.: I just spotted a big error in the PTS edn. of Atthasaalinii (p. 135): "Magga"ngaani patvaa samaadhindriyan ti." should read "Magga"ngaani patvaa sammaasamaadhii ti." Fortunately, the translation in The Expositor is okay. > Thanks also for pointing out this new (to me) meaning of samatha. I > can see I will need to be more careful in future when comparing > samatha and concentration. > > Regarding samatha in the context of samatha-vipassana or samatha > bhavana (and samadhi as in the samadhi section of Visuddhi-Magga), my > understanding is that this is a reference to kusala citta accompanied > by pannaa but not of the level of insight (i.e., not having > paramattha dhamma as object). Is this how you see it? No, I see that samatha is an associated dhamma that is found in all kusala states with or without pa~n~naa including the lokuttaracittas (see Dhs §334). If a citta associated with knowledge has a paramattha dhamma as object, then the associated samatha will also take the same paramattha object. Note that in the Asankhatasamyutta of the Samyutta Nikaya, the Buddha states that 'samatha' is a path (one of many) leading to the Unconditioned, etc. I think the crucial difference between kusala and akusala states is the presence or absence of sati. Best wishes, Jim 25485 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Quote For Anusaya-s Dear Suan Lu Zaw Thank you for your reply ! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Saya Htootinnaing, Lokuttaracitta, Robert, Mike and all > > How are you? > > As Saya Htootinnaing said, cetasikas can arise only when a > consciousness has a chance to arise. Cetasikas being inactive mean > cetasikas not arising. They do not arise outside a consciousness. > > Anusaya-s are merely eradicatable cetasikas (maggehi pahaatabba > cetasika-s). Even though the term "anusaya" sounds invisibly lying > somewhere, this is only for figurative purposes. That is to say, they > are nowhere to be found outside unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala > cittaani) that arise in the present. > > The following is the Suttam quote for the three root cetasika anusaya- > s. > > "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, > dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, adukkhamasukhaaya > vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. > > "Friend Visaakha, indeed, the latent lust tends to arise in the > comfort feeling, the latent violence tends to arise in the miserable > feeling, and the latent ignorance tends to arise in the neutral > feeling." > > Section 465, Muulapa.n.naasa Pali, Majjhimanikaayo. > > In the above quote, the latent lust means greed (lobho) that hasn't > been eradicated by Arahatta magga ñaa.na. > > The latent violence means anger (doso) that hasn't been eradicated by > Anaagaami magga ñaa.na. > > The latent ignorance means ingnorance (moho) that hasn't been > eradicated by Arahatta magga ñaa.na. > > In short, the adjective "latent" for the term "anusaya" means "hasn't > been eradicated by magga ñaa.na-s or magga citta-s". The > term "latent" does not mean the literal sense of lying and waiting > invisibly somewhere. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw Can you say that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does not exist anywhere? If you can, it means the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere.This sounds quite illogical. If you can not, does not it follow that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does exist somewhere ? And where is the " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" eradicated by the magga-citta ? Lobha does not arise as his/her cetasika even for moments before the magga-citta arises as well as at the moment when the magga-citta arises. However I think that lobha should exist somewhere in his/her nama when it is eradicated by his/ her arahatta magga-citta. Otherwise where is lobha eradicated by the magga-citta? Or what is eradicated by the magga-citta? Looking forward to receiving clear explanations from anyone ! from LC 25486 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:44am Subject: FW: Co. to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 13 B Co. to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 13 B Commentary: avassikadaharaana.m santika.m gantvaa -- He visited the young monks who were newly ordained and exhorted them, saying, ``abhiramatha, aavuso, maa ukka.n.thittha, pa.tipattisaaraka.m buddhasaasana''nti ovadati. "Rejoice, friends, be not discontented with the Teachings which contain a practice that is essentail and most excellent in substance.² eva.m katvaa sabbapacchaa bhikkhaacaara.m gacchati. When he had acted in that way he went on his almsround after all the other monks. yathaa hi cakkavatti kuhi~nci gantukaamo senaaya parivaarito pa.thama.m nikkhamati, Just as the wheelturning monarch, wherever he wants to go, departs first, followed by his army, pari.naayakaratana.m sena"ngaani sa.mvidhaaya pacchaa nikkhamati, and his chief of army arranges the divisions of the army and departs afterwards, eva.m saddhammacakkavatti bhagavaa bhikkhusa"nghaparivaaro pa.thama.m nikkhamati, evenso departs the Blessed One first, followed by the community of monks, tassa bhagavato pari.naayakaratanabhuuto dhammasenaapati ima.m kicca.m katvaa sabbapacchaa nikkhamati. and the General of the Dhamma who is the adviser of the Blessed One performs his duty and departs after all the other monks. so eva.m nikkhanto tasmi.m divase a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisinna.m raahulabhadda.m addasa. When he went out on that day he saw "Lucky Rahula", seated at the foot of a certain tree. tena vutta.m ``pacchaa gacchanto addasaa''ti. Therefore it was said, ³He saw him when he came afterwards². ****** English: He visited the young monks who were newly ordained and exhorted them, saying, "Rejoice, friends, be not discontented with the Teachings which contain a practice that is most excellent in substance.² When he had acted in that way he went on his almsround after all the other monks. Just as the wheelturning monarch, wherever he wants to go, departs first, followed by his army, and his chief of army arranges the divisions of the army and departs afterwards, evenso departs the Blessed One first, followed by the community of monks, and the General of the Dhamma who is the adviser of the Blessed One performs his duty and departs after all the other monks. When he went out on that day he saw "Lucky Rahula", seated at the foot of a certain tree. Therefore it was said, ³He saw him when he came afterwards². Nina. 25487 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Larry, op 20-09-2003 00:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I still don't understand. Is the sensitive matter of sense bases > different from the bhavanga stream? What is the function of this > sensitive matter? N:sensitive matter of sense bases are just rupas, they cannot experience anything, they do not feel. Perhaps the words sensitive matter may create confusion. The sensebases are rupas which are capable to receive objects which are also rupas, when these impinge on the relevant sense-bases. Thus, eyesense is rupa, but it is capable to receive visible object so that there are conditions for the eye-door process cittas which can experience visible object. The Abhidhamma is very precise and it is confusing to mix it with notions we have on account of science. We may have intellecual understanding of nama and rupa, but it is difficult not to have a notion of my sensitive body, we confuse nama and rupa. By awareness of either nama or rupa, one at a time, we shall learn more what nama and rupa really are. Bhavangacitta is nama, but it does not experience an object that impinges on one of the six doors. It only experiences it own object which is the same as that experienced at the first moment of life. The last three bhavangacittas before a process begins have been given different names indicating that they are the last ones. That is all. See ADL ch 12. Nina. 25488 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:01pm Subject: Re: Formations - 'choice' - the creative power of Intention? Hello Htoo Naing and all, I think I was confusing a couple of the meanings of formations (sankhara). Thanks for making it clearer. (I see that Nyanatiloka give four different meanings). http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Christine and all, > > Paticcasamuppada or dependent origination is a circle without any > start or beginning. But conventionally it is discussed on Avijja or > Moha or ignorance to start with. > > '' Avijja Paccaya Sankhara > Sankhara Paccaya Vinnana > Vinnana Paccaya Nama-Rupam.....Sambhavanti.'' > > Absence of Vijja is Avijja. As there is no Vijja Nana, Sankhara are > being done. Sankhara rae '' delibrate actions ''. Any Sankhara > comprises Cetana Cetasika or volition or delibrate will. So it can be > said that Cetana is wilful action. > > All Kammapatha( Kamma-generating ) actions at three Kammadvara of > Kaya, Vaci and Mano are are always always accompanied by Cetana or > volition. > > I hope this message is clear enough to understand and further > opinions are welcome. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 25489 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I'll reply in text: Jon: "We agreed in a previous post that only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can concentration that is kusala be developed. In other words, when kusala is developed, so is concentration that is kusala." Larry: I agree that when kusala is being developed then the concentration cetasika that accompanies every citta is kusala. J: "So for example, when kusala of the level of samatha is developed, so is the kusala concentration that supports jhana (absorption concentration). Any disagreement here?" L: I would say concentration cetasika and jhana are quite different. Samatha is a kusala cetasika but it takes much more than that to develop jhana. Jhana requires samatha and other kusala intentions as well as concentration, but samatha does not necessarily lead to jhana. I wouldn't say when kusala, which always includes samatha, is developed so is access concentration necessarily developed. If samatha is focused-on exclusively, possibly we could say access concentration is being developed. We would need that exclusivity. Even if something else were focused on exclusively with the intention of developing some kusala citta or cetasika we might possibly say access concentration is being developed. But so far we haven't been able to find this in any of the books. How's that? Larry 25490 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:47pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. -- Dear Htoo, This is very interesting. - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: >> A single female who has sex with a single male is free of sexual > misconduct because she does possess her sexuality. The reverse is not > true as sexuality is controlled by owners. > > _____________________ I asked ajahn sujin this very question lat year and she gave pretty much the same answer to what your entire post said. I was surprised because I had thought that if a woman is no longer living with her parents and past the age of consent then if she freely went with a man that this was not wrongful conduct for the man. Do you have any other comments about this area. Could there be some difference depending on the society. In our western world woman who have left home are not considered to be owned by the society . Whereas in say a muslim society they would be considered so and then it would be surely breaking the precept? In the suttas it gives an example of a man who has paid for a prostitute. If another man then seduces the woman he is committing sin but it seems the man who paid is not. RobertK 25491 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply, but I didn't understand what is the function of sensitive matter? Are you saying rupa impinges on the sensitive matter then the very same rupa interrupts the bhavanga stream? If so, how does it get there? Wouldn't that rupa's duration ('life') be longer than the maximum 17 cittas because first it has to impinge? Does the rupa not exist before it impinges? Larry 25492 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:50pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa --- Dear Azita and Dan, Not much to add to Dan's very accurate (as far as I understand ) letter. ""Getting the direction of the arrow backwards > and thinking that wisdom is developed by adhering to precepts and > rituals is called silabbataparamasa."" This sums it up. Silabbataparamasa (thanks for spelling correction) is like the manifestation of wrong view. Until we are sotapanna,and depending on the degree of self view,there will be aspects of silabbataparamasa. So we can understand that it is more common than we probably realise. I think if there is developing understanding than then what seems like subtle s-b now will probably be like a glaring wrong practice in the future. On the example you mention: ." Sujin talks about s-p on a > > very momentary level and at that level I am a bit lost." it will depend on what degree we think 'we' are controlling dhammas, like sati and panna as to whether or how strong s-b is. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Azita, > I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at your questions... [We are > fortunate to have Rob around to correct me if I screw up.] > > Q: Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? > --> Dan: Not necessarily, but if you believe that liberation can come > about by adhering to the 5 precepts, that would be silabbataparamasa. > > It is good to adhere to the precepts because breaking them can lead > to tremendous suffering for both the doer and the done to's, but this > is substantially different from saying that following the precepts is > in any way the development of wisdom or leads to liberation. In fact, > the arrow between wisdom and precepts points the other way -- one > with refined wisdom does not break precepts, but adhering to precepts > does not lead to wisdom. Getting the direction of the arrow backwards > and thinking that wisdom is developed by adhering to precepts and > rituals is called silabbataparamasa. This remains true whether those > precepts are the pañca sila; a rule like "I will catch the present > moment by trying to catch the present moment"; or a ritual like > sitting in a corner with eyes closed, legs crossed, and attention > directed to a particular sensation or concept. > > Azita: I think the precepts can be broken easily... > --> Dan: Agreed. But, keeping the 5 precepts is very important, so we > should try hard to do so even though it is extremely difficult to do. > However, thinking such efforts (no matter how important and valuable > and good they may be) will lead to liberation is silabbataparamasa. > > Dan > > > 25493 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:56pm Subject: A Non-Materialist View of Rupas Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/21/03 9:29:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for your reply, but I didn't understand what is the function of > sensitive matter? > > Are you saying rupa impinges on the sensitive matter then the very same > rupa interrupts the bhavanga stream? If so, how does it get there? > Wouldn't that rupa's duration ('life') be longer than the maximum 17 > cittas because first it has to impinge? Does the rupa not exist before > it impinges? > > Larry > ======================== Here's my phenomenalist take on this issue. It is, of course, speculative, and I present it here as an approach to the question that is plausible to me, but not as something I know for a fact to be true. (I note, BTW, how quickly I have violated my intention to "cut back" on e-mail posting! Well, two posts today besides this one, one of which was very brief, and the other being the "cutting Back" post - so I guess I'm cutting back a *little*! ;-) This particular business of viewing "matter" as something objectively "out there" is something that I consider to be a serious error leading to substantialist beliefs and a variety of pseudo-problems, and I'm afraid I find commenting on this subject nearly irresistable. (I hope I can manage to get myself better in check with posting!! ;-) Now to the issue. I think the problem lies in thinking that 'rupa' means "matter" in the sense of an alleged substance "out there in the physical world". Rupas, as I see it, are of two sorts: 1) certain types of objects of awareness, the so-called material forms of the well known five types; they constitute the objective aspect of physical-contact events, and 2) the capacities within a namarupic stream to permit the arising within that stream of rupas of the first type; i.e., the so-called physical sense doors; they constitute the "sensing mechanisms" involved in physical-contact events. Until the conditions for the arising of a rupa-object are all in place, the rupa doesn't exist as an actuality for a given namarupic stream, but only as a potentiality coming closer and closer to being actual as the necessary conditions, one by one, fall into place. The capacity within a given namarupic stream for such a rupic potentiality (of a particular sort - visual, auditory, etc) to become an actual rupa (to arise) when the conditions are all in place is what a sense door is, and that capacity/faculty being operative is itself one of the needed conditions for the arising of a rupa. Certain physical events, actually sequences of one or more physical-contact events, can disable a sense-door capacity; should that happen, a necessary condition for the arising of rupas of that sort is missing, and rupas of that type will no longer arise unless that capacity is restored. But, with sense doors functioning, when a rupa-object *does* arise the discerning consciousness does as well. The coming together of rupa, sense door, and discerning consciousness is contact. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25494 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:47pm Subject: Re: A Non-Materialist View of Rupas Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Howard, My position is that I think science is paramattha dhamma and I see no indication that the Buddha had a problem with materiality. What he did have a problem with is papa~nca (mental proliferation) and abhidhamma, science, and us email addicts are all equally guilty of that. Bon voyage! Larry 25495 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Mind as Resort Attn: Christine Hi Christine I found the sutta that I was thinking had to do with your past teachers remark. In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 43, Sariputta states... "Friend, these five faculties each have a separate field, a separate domain, and do not experience each others field and domain, that is, the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, and the body faculty. Now, these five faculties, each having a separate field, a separate domain, not experiencing each others field and domain, have mind as their resort, and mind experiences their field and domains." TG 25496 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: Mind as Resort Attn: Christine Hello TG, The Mahavedalla Sutta "The Greater Series of Questions and Answers" is a very interesting sutta. Thanks for continuing your search until you found it.:-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > > I found the sutta that I was thinking had to do with your past teachers > remark. In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 43, Sariputta states... > > "Friend, these five faculties each have a separate field, a separate domain, > and do not experience each others field and domain, that is, the eye faculty, > the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, and the body faculty. > Now, these five faculties, each having a separate field, a separate domain, > not experiencing each others field and domain, have mind as their resort, and > mind experiences their field and domains." > > TG 25497 From: K.L Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mind as Resort Attn: Christine --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello TG, > > The Mahavedalla Sutta "The Greater Series of > Questions and Answers" > is a very interesting sutta. Thanks for continuing > your search until > you found it.:-) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > I found the sutta that I was thinking had to do > with your past > teachers > > remark. In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 43, Sariputta > states... > > > > "Friend, these five faculties each have a separate > field, a > separate domain, > > and do not experience each others field and > domain, that is, the > eye faculty, > > the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue > faculty, and the body > faculty. > > Now, these five faculties, each having a separate > field, a separate > domain, > > not experiencing each others field and domain, > have mind as their > resort, and > > mind experiences their field and domains." > > > > TG > > 25498 From: K.L Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:10am Subject: Fwd: Dharma Discussion Forum > Hi all, > You are invited to join this dharma discussion > forum. > URL: http://triplegem.conforums.com 25499 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:22am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hello Azita, Robert, Dan and all, I understand the concern about silabbata-paramasa though I've not heard it mentioned in relation to the Buddha's Precepts before. I think it really refers to blind attachment to some form of behaviour or belief with no understanding of its aim, or any reflection on its real meaning. Silabbata-paramasa involves believing that the practices will automatically produce a particular benefit like rebirth in a favourable realm. (I could understand also if the concern was about the practice of dana which is often performed in that sense). Scrupulousness regarding compliance with the Training Rules is simply that - faithfull following of the Precepts given to us by the Buddha. He expected nothing less of his disciples. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 25500 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear Dan, Rob and Christine, I have found all of your comments helpful, and esp: R: Silabbataparamasa (thanks for spelling correction) is > like the manifestation of wrong view. Until we are sotapanna,and > depending on the degree of self view,there will be aspects of > silabbataparamasa. So we can understand that it is more common than > we probably realise. I think this answers my question, as my concern was that if I thought I could adhere to precepts then that is wrong view, bec there is no 'me' to do this. There can be the intention but that is not the same [to me] as adhereing - am I making sense here? That intention changes from moment to moment, and who can say what the intention will be a any given moment. > > > > Q: Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? > > --> Dan: Not necessarily, but if you believe that liberation can come > > about by adhering to the 5 precepts, that would be > silabbataparamasa. > > > > It is good to adhere to the precepts because breaking them can lead > > to tremendous suffering for both the doer and the done to's, but this > > is substantially different from saying that following the precepts is > > in any way the development of wisdom or leads to liberation. I agree here, I don't believe that sticking to the precepts leads to liberation, but I do believe that if 'I' break a precept and am aware of my action in so doing, then wisdom can know that and if wisdom grows then that is the way to liberation. This is not to say that I keep precepts just so I can break them and be aware!!!!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 25501 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear Dan, Rob and Christine, I have found all of your comments helpful, and esp: R: Silabbataparamasa (thanks for spelling correction) is > like the manifestation of wrong view. Until we are sotapanna,and > depending on the degree of self view,there will be aspects of > silabbataparamasa. So we can understand that it is more common than > we probably realise. I think this answers my question, as my concern was that if I thought I could adhere to precepts then that is wrong view, bec there is no 'me' to do this. There can be the intention but that is not the same [to me] as adhereing - am I making sense here? That intention changes from moment to moment, and who can say what the intention will be a any given moment. > > > > Q: Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? > > --> Dan: Not necessarily, but if you believe that liberation can come > > about by adhering to the 5 precepts, that would be > silabbataparamasa. > > > > It is good to adhere to the precepts because breaking them can lead > > to tremendous suffering for both the doer and the done to's, but this > > is substantially different from saying that following the precepts is > > in any way the development of wisdom or leads to liberation. I agree here, I don't believe that sticking to the precepts leads to liberation, but I do believe that if 'I' break a precept and am aware of my action in so doing, then wisdom can know that and if wisdom grows then that is the way to liberation. This is not to say that I keep precepts just so I can break them and be aware!!!!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 25502 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:23am Subject: double messages! Dear Group, Apologies for the double message, I really cherish the idea you have, Jim, of going to a solitary place with no phone and NO computer!! Cheers folks, Azita. 25503 From: Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:39am Subject: Re: A Non-Materialist View of Rupas Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi, Larry - A quickie: In a message dated 9/21/03 11:48:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > My position is that I think science is paramattha dhamma and I see no > indication that the Buddha had a problem with materiality. What he did > have a problem with is papa~nca (mental proliferation) and abhidhamma, > science, and us email addicts are all equally guilty of that. Bon > voyage! > > Larry > ======================== You are right about papa~nca, and abhidhamma, science, and email! Thank you especially for the papa~nca reminder. BTW, the eye organ and sensitive eye matter are much like trees and the chlorophyll in the leaves - not imagined or made up out of whole cloth, but concept-only, pa~n~natti, or so I see it. With metta, Howard P.S. Thank you for the "bon voyage". Now I just have to ease up on postcards home! ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25504 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry I didn't mean to suggest that when samatha is developed so is access concentration (my apologies if my last post was not as clear as it could have been on this point). I was rather trying to point out that access concentration cannot be developed without the development of samatha, so that if samatha is being developed then so are the necessary conditions for access/absorption concentration to arise at some time in the future (other necessary conditions also being in place). Is this how you see it? CMA Ch. IX makes a clear connection between samatha bhavana and jhana. Samatha bhavana is not so much a particular cetasika as a particular (kusala) mindstate, although this mindstate is accompanied by certain (sobhana) cetasikas and in particular by pannaa of the appropriate level. As such it is included among the bhaavanaa of daana, siila and bhaaavanaa, the 3 kinds of 'meritorious action' (punna-kiriya-vatthu). Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > L: I would say concentration cetasika and jhana are quite > different. > Samatha is a kusala cetasika but it takes much more than that to > develop > jhana. Jhana requires samatha and other kusala intentions as well > as concentration, but samatha does not necessarily lead to jhana. I > wouldn't say when kusala, which always includes samatha, is > developed so > is access concentration necessarily developed. If samatha is > focused-on > exclusively, possibly we could say access concentration is being > developed. We would need that exclusivity. Even if something else > were > focused on exclusively with the intention of developing some kusala > citta or cetasika we might possibly say access concentration is > being > developed. But so far we haven't been able to find this in any of > the books. 25505 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear LC, Thanks for your interest. I will try to sort them out. Here are my inline text reply to your post. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing > I appreciate your great metta ! --------------------------- LC : > So let me talk about lobha as one of paramattha dhammas. Lobha does exist in ordinary beings and will be eradicated the moment when arahatta magga citta arises. So where is the lobha before arahatta magga citta arises? Where is the potenciality to arise ? ( LC ) ---------------------------- Htoo : Mr Lobha is very greedy. Everyone knows how greedy he is. He feels happily all his senses. He likes to see good sights and visions. He likes to hear good sounds. He likes to smell good fragnance. He likes to eats dilicious food. He likes to handle, touch, stay in agreeable body environments. He feels happily all senses. Moreover, he tries to chase them. He delibrately chase them. Tries to get them. When he cannot obtain what he wants he is still craving for them. Everyone understands him and sees him as he is showing his emotions evidently. Mr Ordinary is an ordinary man. He is not as greedy as Mr Lobha. He is content with what he obtains. No one knows whether he is craving for something. But he himself knows that he is sometimes craving. Mr Good is well learned person. He learned every possible Dhamma. And he does practice and even achieves to some extent. He sees himself as free of Lobha as he is quite content with the stage he is in. Everyone accepts him as a good man free of Lobha. He himself sees he is almost free of Lobha. One day an opportunity arises for him. It is quite fascinating and promising in terms of sensuality. All of a sudden, Lobha arises and leads him to take that opportunity. Before Arahatta Magga, that person may be Puthujana or Sotapam or Sakadagam or Anagam. ( This means just for time factor_ Just before Arahatta Magga a person must have been an Anagami Phala Puggala ). He may have Jhana and he may enjoy it. This Lobha is difficult to see. When he is in Vipassana practice, there is no Lobha. But when he is in his Jhana, he may like his Jhana. This is a possibility of arising of Lobha. Potential means possibility of arising when circumstances favour. If not favour it may not arise. When not arising say for a day, then he is free of Lobha a whole day. There is no Lobha on that day. But Anusaya is there. Anusaya is not Paramattha. When Lobha arises, a Paramattha Dhamma arises and when disappears, Paramattha Dhamma disappears. But no Anusaya arises or falls away. But it exist not as a Paramattha Dhamma.( Htoo ) -------------------------- LC: > As long as lobha or the potenciality exists, it must exist (((Yes. /Htoo))) (repeatedly arise and dissapear) ((( But there is time when it does not arise/Htoo ))) somewhere even when it does not arise to our sense-doors and mind-door. There shoud exist behind sense- doors and mind-doors the lobha/ potenciality which will have the immediate causes for its arising. Otherwise there is no difference on lobha between arhants and ordinary beings when lobha of ordinary beings do not arise. ( LC ) ------------------------ Htoo : Lobha has different degrees. Lobha of kings, queens, ministers, presidents, prime ministers, leaders, heads, rich people, millionaires, handsome or beautiful people, educated people, high blooded people, and any people with the reverse or in between will have different degrees. Lobha of Puthujana, Lobha of Sotapam, Lobha of Sakadagam will differs each other. Anagams still have Lobha. When it is not arising, the possibility is called as Anusaya. But since they have been Anagams, Lobha may not arise and they may become Arahats without ever arising of Lobha in between Anagami Phala Cittas and Arahatta Magga Citta. This matter can be seen in case of those who attained Arahatta Magga on the same day when they were Puthujanas such as the time after the preaching of The Buddha. Lobha has no time to arise from the start of preaching to the end of the preaching when they become Arahats. Even though Lobha did not arise, Anusaya exist. In some Puggala Lobha may arise in between Puthujana state and Arahatta Magga. ( Htoo ) ---------------------------- LC: > Where is the lobha or the potenciality ?( LC ) ----------------------------- Htoo : It does not arise. So it is nowhere. As once I said, it is not in the stock. But the potentiality exists. Potentiality is not a Paramattha Dhamma. ( Htoo ) -------------------- > Looking forward to hearing from you all !! > from LC 25506 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:42am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Quote For Anusaya-s Dear LC, Swan, Rob and all, I hope the following answers will help a lot in solving posted questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Dear Suan Lu Zaw > Thank you for your reply ! > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" > wrote: > > Dear Saya Htootinnaing, Lokuttaracitta, Robert, Mike and all > > How are you? > > Suan Lu Zaw ----------------------------- LC: > Can you say that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" > does not exist anywhere? ( LC ) ----------------------------- Htoo : This sentence needs to be clear.But see below please. There are four Magga Cittas. 1. Sotapatti Magga eradicates 1.Ditthi and 2. Vicikiccha 2. Sakadagami Magga makes Akusala much much more thinner. 3. Anagami Magga eradicates 1. Dosa 4. Arahatta Magga eradicates all Kilesa including Lobha and Moha. Lobha, Dosa , and Moha are roots.One or more of these roots support Akusala Dhamma. And Adosa, Alobha and Amoha of Kusala origions are also roots and support Kusala Dhamma. In Arahats there are only Avyakata Hetukas called Alobha ( Avyakata Hetuka ), Adosa ( Avyakata Hetuka ) and Amoha ( Avyakata Hetuka ). ( Htoo ) --------------------------- LC: If you can, it means the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been > eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere.This > sounds quite illogical.( LC ) --------------------------- Htoo : These setences sounds like one of the speaking strategies of 10, called '' Paddy stalk reaping method ''. Arahatta Magga Citta eradicates ' what has not been eradicated by Anagami Magga, Sakadagami Magga, and Sotapatti Magga Citta'. Lobha and Moha are not eradicated by Sotapatti Magga or Sakadagami Magga or Anagami Magga. But when they are not arising they are nowhere. This means they do not exist anywhere at that particular moments when they are absent. But there does exist a potential to arise these if conditions and circumstances favour. This is called Anusaya. If not favour, they will not arise and if favour they may arise. I hope this is entirely logical. Dhamma is to be practised. Dhamma is not just for logical thinking. Sutamaya Panna and Cintamaya Panna do not excel Bhavanamaya Panna. Arahatta Magga is Bhavanamaya Panna. All Magga Cittas and Phala Cittas cannot be attained by just logical thinking. ( Htoo ) ---------------------- LC: > If you can not, does not it follow that "what has not been eradicated > by the magga-citta" does exist somewhere ?(LC) ------------------------ Htoo: Dhamma is not for the battle of logic but for those who wish to be liberated. The statement '' _'What has not been eradicated by the Magga Citta (this must not be Arahatta Magga Citta )'_ does exist somewhere'' is totally wrong. This reveals that the idea of stock is still there. What has not been eradicated by the first three Magga Cittas means un- eradicated Cetasikas like Lobha, Moha, Mana,etc. When they are not arising, they exist nowhere. But potentiality is there. Anusaya is there as long as Arahatta Magga does not arise. (Htoo ) ----------------------------- LC : > And where is the " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" > eradicated by the magga-citta ?( LC ) ----------------------------- Htoo : When they arise, they are there but when they are not arising they are nowhere. There is no stock. ( Htoo ) ----------------------------- LC: > Lobha does not arise as his/her cetasika even for moments before the magga-citta arises as well as at the moment when the magga-citta arises. However I think that lobha should exist somewhere in his/her nama when it is eradicated by his/ her arahatta magga-citta.( LC ) ---------------------------------- Htoo : That somewhere may be anusaya. But they are nowhere.( Htoo ) ----------------------------------- LC : > Otherwise where is lobha eradicated by the magga-citta? Or what is > eradicated by the magga-citta? > > > Looking forward to receiving clear explanations from anyone ! > > from LC -------------------------------- Htoo : What are eradicated by each Magga Citta have been delineated above. I hope this message is crystal clear to all. If still there is any query, please do not hesitate. We all possibly can sort them out. May all beings free from any confusion. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25507 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Robert, In case of prostitution, the man who paid is free of misconduct provided he is not married. ( If yes, his wife will suffer and this is what matter and so he will be guilty of misconduct even though he paid for that particular sex). If another man involved, he was doing sexual misconduct. If both partners ( the man and the prostitute ) are unmarried, and the man pays for the sex, they are free of misconduct. If men are married, the prostitute will be guilty of sexual misconduct. Almost all prostitutes will never consider these things. Difference is the shape of societies may ( may ) effect these aspect. For single female who is over the age of consent are still governed by some authority. But if the society ( mentally ) accept the act of living together, that act must be approved by some outside authority. Western living together may be equivalent to eastern marriage. The only difference is aspect of law. This is for basic precept. Someone practising Samatha or Vipassana will not do any unlawful sex. If he did, he was committing with Lobha Citta called, '' Somanassa Sahagatam Ditthi Vippayutta Asankharika Citta ''. Because he was aware of what is unlawful sex and sexual misconduct. The lay practitioner may have lawful sex. But as he is practising Vipassana his Lobha will be different from those who are not practising Vipassana. Htoo Naing -------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > -- > Dear Htoo, > This is very interesting. > - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > >> A single female who has sex with a single male is free of sexual > > misconduct because she does possess her sexuality. The reverse is > not > > true as sexuality is controlled by owners. > > > > _____________________ > I asked ajahn sujin this very question lat year and she gave pretty much > the same answer to what your entire post said. > I was surprised because I had thought that if a woman is no longer > living with her parents and past the age of consent then if she freely > went with a man that this was not wrongful conduct for the man. > Do you have any other comments about this area. > Could there be some difference depending on the society. In our > western world woman who have left home are not considered to be > owned by the society . Whereas in say a muslim society they would be > considered so and then it would be surely breaking the precept? > In the suttas it gives an example of a man who has paid for a > prostitute. If another man then seduces the woman he is committing sin > but it seems the man who paid is not. > RobertK 25508 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:52am Subject: The Meaning Of Eradication Of Anusayas With No Address: To Lokuttaracitta Dear Lokuttaracitta and all How are you? Lokuttaracitta asked: "Can you say that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does not exist anywhere?" I answer Yes. LC continued to speculate: "If you can, it means the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere.This sounds quite illogical." It is true and logical even though it sounds illogical. The eradication by maggacitta at the moment of maggañaa.na-s does not require the eradicable cetasika-s to be present (pahaatabba cetasika- s) as objects (aaramma.na-s). LC also wrote: "Lobha does not arise as his/her cetasika even for moments before the magga-citta arises as well as at the moment when the magga-citta arises." LC got it right by writing the above, the only statement that is true. :-) But, LC continued to speculate: "However I think that lobha should exist somewhere in his/her nama when it is eradicated by his/ her arahatta magga-citta." Please do not think like that. It is the Wrong Thinking (micchaa sa`nkkappo). As you might be well aware of, cetasika-s such as lobho are mental associates. A mental associate means just that - it cannot be dissociated / separated from a relevant consciousness arising at the present moment. When a consciousness and its mental associates arise, we cannot pinpoint their location, their whereabout. Even when we are observing a particular mental associate by the practice of vippasanaa / satipa.t.thaana, it is wrong to think that the mental associate in question exists somewhere. The only correct way to think and say about a mental associate is the time of their arising. And, the time when it can arise is the present moment only, the real time only. Therefore, the following types of questions are wrongly put: 1. "Does not it follow that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does exist somewhere? 2. "And where is the " what has not been eradicated by the magga- citta" eradicated by the magga-citta ?" 3. "Otherwise where is lobha eradicated by the magga-citta? However, the following question asked by LC is okay. "What is eradicated by the magga-citta?" The answer is that the eradicable mental associates such as lobho are eradicated by the maggacitta-s. Now, let's examine the scenario that the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere. As I argued above, an eradicable mental associate can appear only in the present moment in the real time without existing anywhere. LC, do you understand the above statement? Shall I continue? The present moment or the real time means the time when (Yasmim Samaye, as the Buddha described it) that mental associate arises. We also know that eradicable mental associates accompany only the unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala cittaani). What if we allowed only the healthy consciousnesses (kusala cittaani) to arise by the practice of recollection / mindfulness? If we were successful in bringing about only the healthy consciousnesses, the mental time we enjoy would be without any unhealthy mental associates. Conversely, we would have no time for any unhealthy mental associate such as lobho to accompany our consciousness. LC, do you follow what I have been telling you so far? Shall I continue? If the practice of recollection / mindfulness were able to make our consciousness healthy most of the time and keep it free from unhealthy mental associates, suppose that we liked it and wanted to make it permanent. That is when we went all the way to attain maggacitta-s. To make a long story short, when we finally attained Arahatta magga ñaa.na, our Arahatta consciousness would be pure and healthy all the time. Put it another way, we were no longer capable of giving latent unhealthy mental associates the time and the chance to arise because our mental time was totally Arahattized. Thus, this state of living with the Arahattized consciousness amounted to eradication of all the latent unhealthy mental associates such as lobho, doso and moho for good. I hope that my explanations help. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: Dear Suan Lu Zaw Thank you for your reply ! ___________________ Can you say that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does not exist anywhere? If you can, it means the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere.This sounds quite illogical. If you can not, does not it follow that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does exist somewhere ? And where is the " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" eradicated by the magga-citta ? Lobha does not arise as his/her cetasika even for moments before the magga-citta arises as well as at the moment when the magga-citta arises. However I think that lobha should exist somewhere in his/her nama when it is eradicated by his/ her arahatta magga-citta. Otherwise where is lobha eradicated by the magga-citta? Or what is eradicated by the magga-citta? Looking forward to receiving clear explanations from anyone ! > > from LC 25510 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. 14, last section Tiika 14, last section (continued) Relevant Visuddhimagga text (14): ....In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. ' (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa pa~n~naa...pe... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa pa~n~naa. "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" Tiika: words: khamati: endure, approve of, indulge in nijjhaana: understanding, insight, indulgence. nijjhaayati: meditate, reflect on. khanti: patience, acceptance. Tiika text: sabbaanipi etaani kaara.naani khamati da.t.thu.m sakkotiiti khanti. It accepts, it is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance. passatiiti di.t.thi. rocetiiti ruci. munaatiiti muti. pekkhatiiti pekkhaa. It sees, it is view. It approves, it is approval. It knows, it is understanding. It observes, it is consideration. te ca kammaayatanaadayo dhammaa etaaya nijjhaayamaanaa nijjhaana.m khamantiiti dhammanijjhaanakhanti. And these subjects beginning with the spheres of work that are reflected on incline to understanding, and thus it is acceptance of the understanding of them. parato asutvaa pa.tilabhatiiti a~n~nassa upadesavacana.m asutvaa sayameva cintento pa.tilabhati. As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s words of instruction. aya.m vuccatiiti aya.m cintaamayaa pa~n~naa naama vuccati. The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding consisting of reasoning. saa panesaa abhi~n~naataana.m bodhisattaanameva uppajjati. But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. tatthaapi saccaanulomika~naa.na.m dvinna.myeva bodhisattaana.m antimabhavikaana.m. And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. sesapa~n~naa sabbesampi puuritapaaramiina.m mahaapa~n~naana.m uppajjati. The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections. parato sutvaa pa.tilabhatiiti kammaayatanaadiini parena kariyamaanaani vaa kataani vaa disvaapi As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done by someone else, parassa kathayamaanassa vacana.m sutvaapi aacariyasantike uggahetvaapi pa.tiladdhaa or by hearing someone else¹s words, or by learning under a teacher, sabbaa parato sutvaava pa.tiladdhaa naamaati veditabbaa. all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. samaapannassaati samaapattisama"ngissa, nidassanamatta~nceta.m. As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. vipassanaamaggapa~n~naa idha ``bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti adhippetaa. Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding consisting of development. ****** English: It accepts, it is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance. It sees, it is view. It approves, it is approval. It knows, it is understanding. It observes, it is consideration. And these subjects beginning with the spheres of work that are reflected on incline to understanding, and thus it is acceptance of the understanding of them. As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s words of instruction. The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding consisting of reasoning. But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections. As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done by someone else, or by hearing someone else¹s words, or by learning under a teacher, all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding consisting of development. _________ * In the Sammåsambuddhas and in the Solitary Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas. ***** Nina. 25511 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. Tiika 14, second section Hi Larry, See the last sentence of Tiika 14, last section. Later on I shall answer more. op 20-09-2003 00:32 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I am understanding this as saying there are three kinds of understanding > as reasoning, learning from another, and jhana. All the insight > knowledges are reasoned. Is this how you see it? > > Are "learning" and "having attained jhana" also concerned with > individual and general characteristics but not on the level of insight? 25512 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Egypt Hi James, Just a tip, learn Arabic from an Egyptian teacher and start talking to people on the street and at the local markets. It will make all the difference, try it. You will see that there are many nice people around. Language is a bridge. Nina. op 21-09-2003 14:21 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I have not written anything about Egypt in a while because I am just > finding it to be a hopelessly stupid, backward, and apathetic > society. 25513 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo ,Suan and everyone Dear Htoo Naing ,Suan Lu Zaw and everyone. Thank you very very much for your great metta ! Sorry, I deleted my post once and have just renewed it for convenience. > I hope this is entirely logical.Dhamma is to be practised.Dhamma is > not just for logical thinking.Sutamaya Panna and Cintamaya Panna do > not excel Bhavanamaya Panna. Arahatta Magga is Bhavanamaya Panna. > All Magga Cittas and Phala Cittas can't be attained by just logical > thinking. ( Htoo ) > Dhamma is not for the battle of logic but for those who wish to be > liberated. I agree with you ! Please remember I wrote in my first post on this theme " Let me ask you a basic question, even though it must be nonsense from a practical viewpoint of samata and vipassana bhavana,," I just do like to clarify what are unclear to me before I go into retreat. But we should not forget there might be a being whose paramis has been accumulated to the extent that he/she can become an ariya just by mere contact with Buddha Dhamma ,even though it might be unlikely possibility. Ofcourse I am not such a being! > Potential means possibility of arising when circumstances favour.If is free of Lobha a whole day. There is no Lobha on that day. But > Anusaya is there. Anusaya is not Paramattha. When Lobha arises, a > Paramattha Dhamma arises and when disappears, Paramattha Dhamma > disappears.But no Anusaya arises or falls away. But it exist not as > a Paramattha Dhamma.( Htoo ) ***************************************************** > Now,let's examine the scenario that the magga-citta eradicate "what > has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist > anywhere. > >As I argued above, an eradicable mental associate can appear only in > the present moment in the real time without existing anywhere.( Suan) I see what you(Htoo and Suan) mean. Sorry for having used your time so much, but please let me continue by changeing the way I ask you for possibly final clarification. What is the definition of "exist" in theravada tradition when it's subject is each of nama and rupa ? What is it when it's subjetct is nibbana? What is it when it's subject is a pannatti ? What is it when it's subject is an anusaya ? Looking forward to hearing from you again ! from LC 25514 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] About Egypt Hi Nina and James, James, hope things will go well with you soon in Egypt. Nina, that is a great tip! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Just a tip, learn Arabic from an Egyptian teacher and start talking to > people on the street and at the local markets. It will make all the > difference, try it. You will see that there are many nice people around. > Language is a bridge. > Nina. 25515 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:20pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi all, I am not a pali expert. What does "silabbataparamasa" mean? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Azita, Robert, Dan and all, > > I understand the concern about silabbata-paramasa though I've not [snip] 25516 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:37pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hello Victor, Below are the meanings from Nyanatiloka's dictionary. "sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána. upádána: 'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (tanhá, q.v.). The 4 kinds of clinging are: sensuous clinging (kámupádána), clinging to views (ditthupádána), clinging to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupádána), clinging to the personaljty-belief (atta-vádupádána). <<<>>> 3) "What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual". http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I am not a pali expert. What does "silabbataparamasa" mean? > > Peace, > Victor 25517 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hello all, One also wonders - what about a male who has sex with a male (unpaid)? Or a male who has sex with a male (paid)? Or a single female who hires a male prostitute? Or serial monogamy? Women as property? ... Interesting and quaint ideas from long ago and far away ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25518 From: Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "I was rather trying to point out that access concentration cannot be developed without the development of samatha, so that if samatha is being developed then so are the necessary conditions for access/absorption concentration to arise at some time in the future (other necessary conditions also being in place). Is this how you see it?" Hi Jon, I agree. On a side note, one of the conditions for developing jhana that I should have mentioned is "skill", see Vism. 16, 17, 18. I'm sure this applies to developing samatha also. Larry 25519 From: Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 14, last section Hi Nina, I see that understanding that arises from attainment of jhana can be Path understanding. Can understanding that arises from hearing also be Path understanding? I'm thinking of Sariputta in particular. Would remembering what was heard also apply? Larry tika 14: As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding consisting of development. 25520 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear Victor (and Christine, et al.), Victor asks: I am not a pali expert. What does "silabbataparamasa" mean? I see that Ñanatiloka glosses it as "attachment to mere rules and ritual", but I don't see where he gets the "mere" from. sila (behavior, moral practice, code of morality) + -bbata (good works and ceremonial observances) + paramasa (taking hold of) Attachment to rules and rituals is one of the three fetters that is broken by the sotapanna. The other two (wrong view and doubt) are closely related. Dan 25521 From: Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:26am Subject: New translations of the Satipatthana Sutta Hello everyone, in an effort to support my insights I have recently been concentrating my studies on the various suttas in the Pali canon that are dedicated to meditation, consciousness and cognition. As some of you may know I have had a conflict over the use of words 'consciousness' and 'mind' in the translations that have been available to us. I have spent some time examining these suttas in search of the intent that I believe was behind the Buddha's discourses, and I have informed my study through reflecting upon my meditation practice. This reflection and contemplation has confirmed my belief that our language of consciousness and cognition is not properly represented in the present translations of this ancient document. A classic example of what I believe is the incorrect use of our language of gnosis, consciousness and cognition is in the use of the word 'consciousness' which too often seems to imply that through meditation we are seeking an unconscious state, which cannot be true. Also the Pali term 'citta' is often translated as 'mind.' Mind in the English language means " The faculty of thinking, reasoning, and applying knowledge." Also there are numerous unsuccessful compound words used in these translations, like 'eye-consciousness' which should be replaced by something that uses our language more successfully, like 'visual perception.' If you examine these recent uploads I believe you will find them far more readable and accessible. And, for ease of use they are in Acrobat Reader PDF format. I also find the translations of the canon far too heavily waited on the male sex. Therefore I have removed many of the gender specifying references as well. The files uploaded are: Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) Bahiya Sutta, Udana I.10 They are available at this URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/files/ Blessings to you and all, &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Suffering can indeed be ended in this very lifetime Take refuge Let the Four Noble Truths be your guiding-light Follow the Eighth Fold Path, and observe the precepts Practice regularly and often, with duration and intensity &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Jeff Brooks editor, Southwest Insight E'letter http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWI_E_letter/ moderator, Ecstatic Buddhism http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/ moderator, Jhana Support Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ 25522 From: Andrew Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > following of the Precepts given to us by the > Buddha. He expected nothing less of his disciples. > Hi Christine I'm not trying to be cute or pedantic but for some reason talk of the Buddha's "expectations" seems problematical to me. An expectation is an anticipation that may or may not be fulfilled - something that seems tied up with dukkha. I don't think the Buddha would have had expectations, certainly not ones that would lead to disappointment if they weren't fulfilled. True, the Precepts were given to us by the Buddha, but so was the whole Dhamma ... so the problem remains: what happens if Precept- following gives rise to wrong action? The whole area is difficult. I recently read Buddha's advice to Rahula - never tell a deliberate lie, not even in jest. (A person capable of telling a deliberate lie is capable of any evil). Then I thought of some people I know who will deliberately lie when they are sober, but cannot maintain the deception when drunk! On the face of it, breaking the 5th Precept would seem to lead to less negligence in that case? Now, I'm sure that's not correct when you can see what is happening at the level of momentary rupa, citta and cetasika. And that, I think, is what needs to be attained - an ability to transcend rules and see what is actually happening. Metta Andrew 25523 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > I agree. On a side note, one of the conditions for developing jhana > that > I should have mentioned is "skill", see Vism. 16, 17, 18. I'm sure > this applies to developing samatha also. I don't think Ch. XIV of Vism can be taken as applying to samatha also. To do so would be to overlook the very important differences between samatha and vipassana. Although both are accompanied by panna, the level of panna and its object, and the final goal/outcome are quite different. In the Vism, Part II (Chs III to XIII) deals with samatha, while Part IV (Chs. XIV to XXIII) deals with vipassana. Getting back to our thread... As I understand it, there is no way to develop jhaana other than by samatha bhaavanaa. In encouraging jhaana, the Buddha was encouraging the development of samatha. Are we agreed? Jon 25524 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine (& All on this thread). I’m very grateful to you for raising and persisting with this thread. It’s not easy when the few assumptions and inklings we confidently have about the Buddha’s teachings are questioned and challenged here;-) I think it takes a certain amount of confidence in the value of these teachings to raise points, discuss and not accept any answers unless they make sense for us. I appreciate Victor’s posts in this regard. I’ve found it helpful to consider my very mixed motives in keeping the precepts as best as I can. There is some understanding of the great value, but also aspects of fear, attachment and other less wholesome ideas that creep in easily as well. I think as Azita pointed out, knowing the various mind-states and other phenomena experienced is most precious of all. For most of us, we’re not really being tested in difficult circumstances as Howard suggested. There are no scorpions or tigers or serious challenges. I may well think it’s unlikely I’d ever have cause to drink alcohol again in this lifetime,not having done so for 30 years, but we never know. Some of us have known monks keep excellent sila for many, many years and then succomb to temptations on disrobing for example. When I stayed in the temple in Sri Lanka, it was easy for me to keep 8 precepts perfectly, no temptation to utter any gossip or joke or exaggerate a story even as I wasn’t speaking most the time! Later, working in London with delinquent adolescents, all the old accumulated tendencies for harsh and frivolous speech became apparent again. Should one avoid such situations and live in a temple? I don’t think we need to set another rule. It's better to know the truth than to think one’s beyond such weaknesses. I remember how my brothers would tease me as I seemed to behave so perfectly on my return from Sri Lanka. It was just like the story of the servant who got up later and later to test whether her mistress was really as calm as she appeared;-) Without enough accumulated wisdom, it's just a matter of time and conditions before one 'snaps'. As KenH suggested, if not in this life, what about the next life? As it mentioned in the Minor Readings, for a lay person, the taking of precepts is momentary. If one lapses, one can understand the accumulations and make another undertaking. .... Back to the Jivaka sutta and your original questions on it: --- christine_forsyth wrote: >The sutta says (in part): "Jivaka, when the lay disciple > abstains from destroying living things, taking the not given, from > sexual misconduct, from telling lies, from taking intoxicated and > brewed drinks, with this much he becomes virtuous" > > "Yato kho jãvaka, upàsako pàõàtipàtà pañivirato hoti, adinnàdànà > pañivirato hoti, kàmesu micchàcàrà pañivirato hoti, musàvàdà > pañivirato hoti, suràmerayamajjapamàdaññhànà pañivirato hoti. > Ettàvatà kho jãvaka, upàsako sãlavà hotãti." > > Does 'pañivirato' mean 'abstain'? And does 'abstain' mean 'to > forbear or refrain voluntarily, and especially from an indulgence of > the passions or appetites'? ***** I think we all agree here that ‘abstain’ is being referred to with regard to all the precepts. I understand these lines to mean that a lay-person is virtuous when he follows these precepts entirely. The question for me is whether this suggests a prescription for striving as some suggest or a description of an end result for those with sufficient wisdom developed? In other words, there can only then be no more causes for any further non-abstention as suggested by Dan’s reverse arrow. In other words, I believe it is a description of the one with purified sila or virtue. Just for consideration, we read that the Buddha tells Jivaka that one who has taken reufge in the triple gem is a lay follower and that one who ‘abstains’ from breaking the precepts is a virtuous lay-follower as you point out. Finally, the Buddha then describes a lay follower who has confidence, virtue, gnerosity, visits the Sangha, listens to the Dhamma, listens, considers, recalls, understands the Dhamma and practices accordingly. In addition, this lay follower encourages others in all these regards. Jivaka (Komaarabhacca) is the well-known doctor discussed before (by Num). Jivaka himself would be a perfect example of all these qualities. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/j/jiivaka.htm I believe he was already a sotapanna and gave great support to the Sangha, including building a monastery in Rajagaha and continually providing medical treatment. In other words, it sounds very like a description of Jivaka’s qualities, I think. Similarly, the sutta before this in AN is the one addressed to Mahaanaama the Sakyan. (I can’t find it on line- I’m looking at the PTS transl, Bk of 8s, v (25)0, Mahanama asks identical questions and receives the same replies. Is this because Mahanama needs to be urged to strive to keep the precepts, take refuge and perform good deeds? http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/j/jiivaka.htm (the third Mahanama, the Sakiyan) Again we read that Mahanama already showed great generosity to the Sangha and is included in a list of ‘exemplary lay devotees’. Furthermore, he was a sakadagami, so he also had no need for a prescription as to keeping the 5 precepts. I also think it may be a description of the qualities of one who really understands the meaning of taking refuge, full abstaining from breaking precepts under any circumstances and a model of exemplary lay life. Chris, I think as you say, these suttas can and should be reminders for us to see the slightest faults and the qualities to be developed. Understanding these faults as conditioned phenomena and not-self is most precious of all. Many of us would like to have a system or structure or set of rules to follow, but again I think there can be awareness of the attachment at these times too. I agree with RobertK & Dan when they suggest that subtle clinging to ditthi and rituals can creep in very easily. It can arise when we open a Dhamma text, read a message on DSG or almost anytime. It seems very subtle now for us. As Robert suggested, it may seem not at all subtle as wisdom develops. With great appreciation for your posts and all the traffic they have generated. I think that by raising these points and persisting with the thread you’ll also be doing many lurkers a great favour too who may feel the same but be shy or busy to make the points. It’s certainly been most helpful to me and my comments here are only suggestions for anyone to consider and question;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25525 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Egypt Hi James, Great to know you’re still around;-) --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hey All, > > I have not written anything about Egypt in a while because I am just > finding it to be a hopelessly stupid, backward, and apathetic > society. But those may be just foreigner's reactions/culture shock. > After a while I may get a balanced perspective and then I can make > intelligent observations. Now I think all you would get from me > would be rantings. ..... I don’t have Nina’s linguistic talents and of course when one’s working one has limited time to put into language learning, but in Hong Kong I always found the small efforts I’ve put into speaking Cantonese have been a great help too in settling in and getting over any feelings of ‘me’ and ‘them’. For outgoing people like ourselves, I think it’s particularly helpful. On a Dhamma track, I know you’ve had some overwhelming experiences and health and other difficulties. James, you have a real talent for writing beautifully and also a great appreciation for the Buddha’s teaching. I know you don’t find it very helpful to hear about namas and rupas ad nauseum and ‘akusala cittas’;-). This is why I think you can really be your best teacher by using your humourous writing and incorporating a sutta or two so that you learn a lesson from the experience in the process. In terms of our ‘accumulations’ or habitual responses, we can see that these follow us around the world. The Dhamma is what will help and make a real difference in the long run. I know you feel that if you write anything about your experiences, especially the difficult ones, that it will just sound like a ranting here. On the other hand, this is daily life and the difficulties we face are common - impatience, intolerance, attachment, clinging to self and so on. Are there also examples of kindness, metta and tolerance around? You’ll do everyone a favour, including yourself, if you can find a few aspects of Dhamma to draw on - like some modern James-ish Dhamma Aesop’s Fables with an Egyptian ranting flavour;-). You did the first couple very well and I’d personally be glad to see your further efforts. 'From the heart' rather than 'intelligent observations' is fine. With metta and best wishes for your health and well-being. Sarah ====== 25526 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:37am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Christine, They all are wrong practice called '' Micchacara ''. Miccha is wrong and Cara is practice or act or behaviour. If this practice of wrong things is done in ' Karma ', it may constitue '' Karmesu Micchacara ''. This unusual Lobha ( Tanha ) as a leader of Akusala Dhamma also accompanied by Ahirika ( shamelessness ) and Anottappa (fearlessness ) makes the committers happy in their act. And they assume it as normality. For those who are engaged in higher practice hardly have these problems. But this matter needs to be clear as a basic precept.Before basic precept of sex is discussed let me go a bit deep into the matter. Tahna, Mana, Ditthi are three things that expand the Samsara. Having sex is associated with enormous Tanha. While trying to eradicate subtle Tanha, stopping of these things will not be too difficult. If the act is deviated from normal then there do exist potential of resultant effect. A female single who hires male prostitute and having sex with him is deviated from norm. If that male prostitue is married, that single female will breach the precept even though she paid for sex. If male prostitute is unmarried, as she is a single she MAY not breach. But as a prostitue, if that male has been paid by another female beforehand, then she will possibly breach the precept. What matters is other party. In serial monogamy, it needs to be separately considered. Male having sex with male also has implication of sexual misconduct. If a male is married, he is committing the precept whatever he is receptive or insertive party. Single male having sex with married male also commits the precept whatever he is insertive or receptive partner. The problem arises in case of two single males. Even though it is not clear black or white, it is deviated by norm. They may have their guardians. The guardians may suffer. If suffer, both males are guilty of the act. If the owner or guardian allows and there is no other implication the allowed partner may be free of breaching the precept. In case of male to male sex, paid or unpaid has many implication. Sometimes it may need to be considered and sometimes not. If society accept, one of parties may be assume as female counterpart. In that case, owners needs to allow to have sex. The most important point in these matters is not to affect society, partners and social implication. With Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > One also wonders - what about a male who has sex with a male > (unpaid)? Or a male who has sex with a male (paid)? Or a single > female who hires a male prostitute? Or serial monogamy? > Women as property? ... Interesting and quaint ideas from long ago and > far away ... > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25527 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:07am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo ,Suan and everyone Dear LC, Thanks for your clarifying question. If still in doubt post new questions for that. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo Naing ,Suan Lu Zaw and everyone. > > Thank you very very much for your great metta ! ----------------------------------------------- LC: > Sorry for having used your time so much, but please let me continue > by changeing the way I ask you for possibly final clarification. ------------------------------------------------ Htoo : It's all right. Before I proceed here I would like to say. Do not underestimate own Parami. See in case of '' Sulapanthaka Thera '' in Buddha's time. He was so unintelligent that he could not recite a short verse. But flush of wisdom sudden came to him as he was handling a white cloth given by The Buddha and attained Arahatta Magga along with Jhana and Abhinna. Some did have a good knowledge and very intelligent. But still not free from attachment and so still not liberated. I do not underestimate any one and I am not conceited in case of Dhamma. ( Htoo ) ------------------ LC: > What is the definition of "exist" in theravada tradition when it's > subject is each of nama and rupa ? (LC) ------------------------ Htoo : '' Exist '' may have many meanings. Nama and Rupa exist. In that, even though they are not arising at the time of speaking, they do exist. This '' exist'' means they exist as realities.This can be rephrased as '' There are Nama and Rupa .'' So '' exist'' may mean '' are ''. Nama and Rupa arise and exist. In that Nama and Rupa have arisen and staying there and they are still there, not disappearing. That staying means '' exist ''.( Htoo ) ---------------------------- LC : > What is it when it's subjetct is nibbana?( LC ) -------------------------- Htoo : Nibbana exists. There is Nibbana. ' exist ' = '' is ''in this sentence.( Htoo ) ---------------------- LC: > What is it when it's subject is a pannatti ? ( LC ) -------------------------- Htoo : Panatti does not exist as Paramattha Dhamma. ( Htoo ) ------------------------------ LC: > What is it when it's subject is an anusaya ? ( LC ) ------------------------ Htoo : Anusaya exists. In this '' there is Anusaya ''. So '' exists '' in this sentence means '' is ''. Even though there is Anusaya, there is no Paramattha Akusala at the time of speaking when these Akusala do not arise. I hope this will be a clear answer.( Htoo ) With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------- > Looking forward to hearing from you again ! > > from LC 25528 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear All, I would just like to bring to your attention something I've known for awhile about the 5 precept formula that we're all familiar with. It appears to me that after repeated word searches on the Tipitaka and its commentaries there is no such formula per se to be found anywhere in these texts. The closest to it that I can find is the set in the Vibhanga at the beginning of Chapter 14 but here the word 'samaadiyaami' (I undertake) is missing. It seems to me that the Buddha never laid down such a formula for laypersons in the same way that he laid down the 10 precept formula for samaneras as found in the Mahavagga (Vinayapi.taka) and the Khuddakapaa.tha. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Best wishes, Jim 25529 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Dear Sarah, What you say about following the precepts is interesting. You write: "I've found it helpful to consider my very mixed motives in keeping the precepts as best as I can. There is some understanding of the great value, but also aspects of fear, attachment and other less wholesome ideas that creep in easily as well." Can you elaborate on the charactistics of hiri and ottappa and how we can distinguish these wholesome "fears" from the dosa-derived "fear" of which you speak? Dan 25530 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:55am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi, Htoo, > They all are wrong practice called '' Micchacara ''. Miccha is > wrong and Cara is practice or act or behaviour. If this practice of > wrong things is done in ' Karma ', it may constitue '' Karmesu > Micchacara ''. Isn't it kaamesu and not karmesu (from kaama and not karma)? Also, putting in the diacritical marks, micchaacaaraa must be from miccha + aacaara, not miccha + caara because of the long vowel in the middle? Derek. 25531 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi again, I was interested in seeing if I could find any passages where the Buddha explicitly refers to the five as training-precepts (sikkhaapadaani) and found one at AN IX.20 (Velaama Sutta) in a dialogue with Anathapindaka: ". . . though with pious heart he took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and the Order, greater would have been the fruit thereof, had he with pious heart undertaken to keep the precepts [sikkhaapadaani]: abstention from taking life, from taking what is not given, from carnal lusts, from lying and from intoxicating liquor, the cause of sloth." -- GS iv p. 265 That is enough to convince me that the five precepts are indeed well-grounded in the Buddha's teachings. Best wishes, Jim > Dear All, > > I would just like to bring to your attention something I've known for > awhile about the 5 precept formula that we're all familiar with. It > appears to me that after repeated word searches on the Tipitaka and > its commentaries there is no such formula per se to be found anywhere > in these texts. The closest to it that I can find is the set in the > Vibhanga at the beginning of Chapter 14 but here the word > 'samaadiyaami' (I undertake) is missing. It seems to me that the > Buddha never laid down such a formula for laypersons in the same way > that he laid down the 10 precept formula for samaneras as found in the > Mahavagga (Vinayapi.taka) and the Khuddakapaa.tha. Please correct me > if I'm mistaken. > > Best wishes, > Jim 25532 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:33am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Dereck, Thanks for your correction. You put what I exactly meaned. Words are OK. What is your opinion on these matter like male prostitutes and male to male sex. I think it is a bit complicated. For Bhikkhus, there is no problem as their Vinaya is Abrahmacariya. So no sex at all. But for lay people it is confusing, isn't it? Htoo Naing ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Cameron" wrote: > Hi, Htoo, > > > They all are wrong practice called '' Micchacara ''. Miccha is > > wrong and Cara is practice or act or behaviour. If this practice of > > wrong things is done in ' Karma ', it may constitue '' Karmesu > > Micchacara ''. > > Isn't it kaamesu and not karmesu (from kaama and not karma)? Also, > putting in the diacritical marks, micchaacaaraa must be from miccha + > aacaara, not miccha + caara because of the long vowel in the middle? > > Derek. 25533 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 14, last section Hi Larry, op 23-09-2003 01:08 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I see that understanding that arises from attainment of jhana can be > Path understanding. N: This is not in the text. Of someone who has an attainment was unexplained. Then the Tiika adds: L:Can understanding that arises from hearing also be > Path understanding? I'm thinking of Sariputta in particular. Would > remembering what was heard also apply? N: Not right away, it has to be developed on and on. Sariputta was different, he needed only a few words because he had in countless former lives developed understanding. You used the word jhana, this reminds me. There are two meanings of mundane jhaana: mundane jhana concentrating on meditation subjects (kasina, etc.), and in the case of vipassanaa: contemplating the general characteristics (impermanence, etc.), also this is called jhana. We have to look at contexts so that we know what is meant. We discussed this before. As to concentration, in the Dhsg., as Jim pointed out, there are many aspects of ekaggata cetasika, and (§ 11) one of these is called samatha, quiet. Here it is this cetasika, but in other contexts the development of cakm is meant. In the Vis. we study now we find many terms and many aspects of understanding, and each time we have to look carefully at the context. Nina. 25534 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:05am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear Htoo Naing Thank you so much for your great metta ! > Do not underestimate own Parami. See in case of '' Sulapanthaka > Thera '' in Buddha's time. He was so unintelligent that he could not > recite a short verse. But flush of wisdom sudden came to him as he > was handling a white cloth given by The Buddha and attained Arahatta > Magga along with Jhana and Abhinna. > > Some did have a good knowledge and very intelligent. But still not > free from attachment and so still not liberated. > > I do not underestimate any one and I am not conceited in case of > Dhamma. ( Htoo )Sulapanthaka The story of Sulapanthaka thera is one of my favorites ! It has been cited as a good example even in Maha-yana traditions. I was born and brough up in a Maha-yana country and have been studying and practising Maha-yana traditions before I fortunately came in contact with Theravada tradition last year. I do not like to compare the different traditions and argue about the differences because it seems just wast of time from a practical viewpoint of bhavana. I do want to understand and practise the "newest (to me !) " tradition without any mixing-up with others. That is one reason why I insistently asked you about seemingly a clear-cut point to those who has been in pure theravada tradition. In my experiences ,it was/is one of the watershed points in various buddhist traditions . But here I stop bringing up other traditions. I want to try to understand purely what pali-canon teach. Thanks to you and Suan, I can understand well theravadin's basic stance on the point. I greatly appreciate your help. from LC 25535 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:37am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi Christine and Dan, Thanks for the info regarding the term "silabbataparamasa"/"attachment to rules and ritual" Peace, Victor 25536 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi, Htoo, > What is your opinion on these matter like male prostitutes and > male to male sex. I think it is a bit complicated. > For Bhikkhus, there is no problem as their Vinaya is Abrahmacariya. > So no sex at all. Yes -- I think everyone agrees on that one! > But for lay people it is confusing, isn't it? I don't know of any suttas that explicitly address these subjects. Even the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), often considered the code of conduct for laypeople, doesn't give a definition of kaamesu micchaacaaraa. (BTW anyone know what the commentary says?) Perhaps the best we can say is that this isn't a subject the Buddha ever addressed. Derek. 25537 From: Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "As I understand it, there is no way to develop jhaana other than by samatha bhaavanaa. In encouraging jhaana, the Buddha was encouraging the development of samatha. Are we agreed?" Hi Jon, I agree. Larry ps: Concerning whether development of samatha requires "skill": Vism. XIV 16: In the third triad, it is increase that is called "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these things to mind [440] both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase, development, and perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of understanding ... [for words elided see Dhs. 16] ... non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in improvement' (Vbh. 325-26). L: I'm understanding profitable to mean kusala and samatha bhavana to be kusala. So skill in improvement is understanding that samatha is improvement and skill in means is understanding how to develop that improvement. Do you understand it differently? 25538 From: Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 14, last section Larry: "I see that understanding that arises from attainment of jhana can be Path understanding." Nina: "This is not in the text. Of someone who has an attainment was unexplained." Hi Nina, Here is the usual understanding of "attainment" (samapatti) according to Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": "samápatti: 'attainments', is a name for the 8 absorptions of the fine-material and immaterial spheres to which occasionally is added as 9th attainment, attainment of extinction (nirodhasamápatti) Cf. jhána." L: I agree nibbana can be an object of jhana and therefore "attainment" would also apply to this kind of Path moment but the reference to attainment wasn't limited to this. At this point I am inclined to stress the "having" in "having attained an attainment". This suggests to me an insight knowledge may arise after jhana but still within the jhana "mind-set". Within jhana itself, we might possibly say the agenda of analyzing jhana factors and gradually releasing them in order to progress to greater tranquility (peace) as well as the rational behind suppressing the hindrances *inclines toward* insight into the general characteristics which would be present in the form of the hindrances and the jhana factors. However, I think it more likely the reference was to post jhana insight. I am tempted to call this insight "intuition" in order to differentiate it from "reason" and "hearing". But "intuition" is such a vague idea I'm not sure. What do you think? Larry 25539 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question again :To Htoo ,Suan and everyone Dear LC, Please, I hope you will come back to us after your retreat. I like your questions. You asked about latent tendencies and there is so much to study about them. In a few weeks I shall begin to tranlate from Thai about this subject: whwere are the latent tendencies and how are they eradicated. But I have to finish first three more chapters of the first Book I am translating. Nina. op 22-09-2003 19:35 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > I just do like to clarify what are unclear to me before I go into > retreat. 25540 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 0:26am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, I hadn’t forgotten our thread, but these are difficult topics for me and I may be out of my depth... ..... --- Jim Anderson wrote: > The kind of pa~n~naa that is being developed in Vism is > insight-knowledge, but there are other kinds too such as sutamayaa > pa~n~naa that seems to me to have a connection with a deep > understanding of Pali or the Buddha's language. .... I’m not sure. When we read about the 3 kinds of understanding inc. sutamayaapa~n~naa (understanding bsed on what is heard) in VismX1V, 14, I understood them all to be referring to insight-knowledge and this being the reason they are included here. Whilst I agree that of course there can be other kinds of pa~n~naa, such as with samatha development, I would have thought most/all(?) instances of sutamayaa pa~n~naa in suttas and commentaries referred to satipatthana development (??). I’ve only had a quick look so far at Nina’s commentary notes on this and also Dispeller 2066f and there’s much I’m unclear on. Nina may be able to add more or perhaps you can elaborate further for me. In an earlier post, Num summarised from the Patisambhidamagga: ***** “Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: knowledge) Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana. Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta here refers to teaching of the Buddha. Knowledge attained by listening to the teaching is sutamayan~ana. It can also refer associated dhamma of listening for example phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening is sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of knowledge (n~ana). <> ***** Whilst I’m not sure that I agree that a deep knowledge of Pali necessarily leads to any pa~n~naa, I have no doubt it is very useful. I have known people, inc. K.Sujin herself, who do not have a deep knowledge of Pali but a lot of insight, in my view, into the teachings. I have also known quite a few Pali scholars with an apparent ‘deep knowledge’ of the language, but also an ability, in my view, to miss the essence of the teachings, so I’m somewhat wary of making this connection. Presumably you’d say that in the latter cases there is not a deep knowledge of the language? ..... >I was also thinking of > a comparison of the money-changer's knowledge of money with the > expert's knowledge of Pali. I think I may have a very hard time trying > to convince you, especially if you don't agree that the Pali language > and the teachings presented in that language (concepts) can be a focus > for pa~n~naa. .... Of course, if we read and comprehend the teachings in Pali or any language, the concepts considered (about realities) can of course be a condition for insight. If not, we wouldn’t read or consider. Certainly, too, I agree with you and Suan that inevitably much is lost in any translation which can only ever be as good as the translator’s understanding of the text. But, I think you are saying something more and we may have to let it be;-) ..... > One of the five things in the explanation of 'attha' in the > Discrimination of Meaning is the "meaning of what is spoken" > (Dispeller, 1944). And similarly for 'dhamma' in the Discrimination of > Law there is "what is spoken" (1945). Would you not consider these to > be concepts? However, these only form part of the explanation of the > two discriminations and I'm sure they would go well beyond concepts > too. I think the translations 'meaning' and 'law' don't adequately > give the full range of the applied meanings of 'attha' and 'dhamma' in > these discriminations and should probably be best left untranslated. .... As I’ve said, I know very little about the discriminations and this will come up soon in Vism with tika notes. But no, I understand them to only refer to deep penetrative knowledge of realities - directly penetrating ‘what is spoken’ - causes, meanings, conditions and so on. I’d better not speculate further;-) Nina referred to the Vibhanga text before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24569 "The Vibhanga states according to the knowledge of attha and knowledge of dhamma with regard to the four Truths: Thus, in these texts dhamma as hetu, condition or cause has been referred to." ***** > I think it's much better to study the teachings in the Buddha's own > language. Recently, I've been thinking of translations as being > counterfeits. They should never be taken as equivalents of the > original. I never did put much faith in translations and I will > probably never be a translator myself. It's a good thing that the Pali > has been kept alive and well. Think of how much worse off we'd all be > if there had been a dominant mindset that > considered translations to be exact equivalents of the originals and > the Pali had been discarded and obliterated many centuries ago. ..... I agree with all this, though perhaps I wouldn’t use such a strong word as ‘counterfeit’. I think for Pali experts to share what they read is a priceless gift and a very difficult task. I’m not suggesting you should be a translator, Jim - I think developing one’s ‘own’ understanding is always the most important thing. ..... > > Could it mean foremost in terms of being the no 1. language (rather > than > > most common) as we read in the next para about how other languages > change > > but "only this Magadha tongue correctly called the perfect (brahma) > usage, > > the noble usage, does not change."??? And it then goes on to talk > about > > why the Buddha used this language relating to the above: > > I was thinking along those lines also. .... Interesting!! - would the Pali allow this? .... > Yes, I've been reading about their solitary lifestyles. Like Reg, I > also lived for the first ten years without electricity. I also have a > lot of experience staying in small tents during my long periods of > travel when I was much younger. ..... And now we have Azita thinking of cutting off all lines;-) Not sure how you’ll all exchange notes.... Also, appreciating your input on the 5th precept thread, Jim. Oops, I’ve exceeded my word limit.... Metta, Sarah ==== 25541 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 0:33am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Suan, Many thx for your contribution on this same thread: --- abhidhammika wrote: > > Although I do not have as strong a view as Jim on translations, I do > have similar view on preferableness of reading in the original Pali > language. > > Here are my attitudes and experiences in learning foreign languages. [...] .... I agreed with all the points you made about learning languages. When you arrived in Australia as an immigrant, I was working in a technical college teaching the same skills you outline to other newly arrived immigrants - exactly as you explained;-) I just do better teaching others than following the advice and making the time myself..... Thankyou for your inspiration and also appreciating all your and Htoo’s replies to LC’s excellent questions. Metta, Sarah ====== 25542 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Dan, Seems like a long time since we’ve talked. Hope you’re all doing well and well-settled. --- "Dan D." wrote: >Can you elaborate on > the charactistics of hiri and ottappa and how we can distinguish > these wholesome "fears" from the dosa-derived "fear" of which you > speak? .... Many thanks for this opportunity to reflect further on this useful topic. I think that pretty well anytime there is any aspect of fear as generally understood, any worry, anxiety or story related to the ‘abstaining’, the cittas are most likely to be uwholesome. As we know, a knowledge of Dhamma is not necessary for understanding the value of wholesome states and the harm of unwholesome ones. When I was writing, I was reflecting on the time when I stopped drinking alcohol completely (and taking any other ‘intoxicants’). This was before I knew anything about the Buddha or his teachings and was mostly a result of a) seeing the harm of the effects on both my own mental states and actions and also on others dear to me , b) seeing the ease and danger of its addictive nature, c) fear (dosa ) of the results of continuing in this course of action. A few years ago (well, maybe 15), Jon and I went to a resort and were given a welcome fruit drink. I was thirsty and took a gulp, only to find it was alcoholic. My reaction was over-the-top annoyance at not having been told and so on. Actually, the fear was very apparent. Even now, I have this kind of fear at the thought of unknowingly being given alcohol or some other intoxicant. In my case, it also applies to coffee which I used to be quite addicted to and had to give up completely;-(. By contrast, hiri (scruples or conscience) and ottappa (shame) arise immediately with all wholesome states. At moments of abstaining wisely from any unwholesomeness, the hiri and ottappa are ‘scrupulous’. As Jon said ‘we cannot ‘think’ our way to kusala by the choice of a particular object of thought’. At moments of dana, sila or bhavana, hiri and ottappa arise without any thought or prompting. Like Andrew and others have said, this is very different from ‘turning rules over in one’s head’ and these precious cittas are accompanied by a genuine calm and ‘lighteness’ from akusala. I see the precepts and all other reminders of kusala as advice and guidance to prompt wise reflection and accompanying hiri and ottappa, rather than any special paying of attention or focussing on particular objects. KenH also said ‘when we abstain with kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have even thought about it.’ I think this applies to all kinds of kusala - hence the daily life applicability. In brief, I don’t find ‘fear’ a useful word to use for these wholesome states because it is so easily confused with unwholesome fear. Perhaps it’s easier to consider hiri and ottappa as the opposites of shamelessness and recklessness which accompany all unwholesome states, when there is no seeing their harm. I’d be glad to hear your reflections, too, Dan. Metta, Sarah p.s I know Dan is very familiar with Nina’s ‘Cetasikas’, but others may like to read the chapter in that book on these sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html ============================ 25543 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi Jim, An interesting point here: --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > > I would just like to bring to your attention something I've known for > awhile about the 5 precept formula that we're all familiar with. It > appears to me that after repeated word searches on the Tipitaka and > its commentaries there is no such formula per se to be found anywhere > in these texts. The closest to it that I can find is the set in the > Vibhanga at the beginning of Chapter 14 but here the word > 'samaadiyaami' (I undertake) is missing. It seems to me that the > Buddha never laid down such a formula for laypersons in the same way > that he laid down the 10 precept formula for samaneras as found in the > Mahavagga (Vinayapi.taka) and the Khuddakapaa.tha. Please correct me > if I'm mistaken. .... I think the section in the vibhanga you refer to above has a lot of fascinating detail about the various mental states, reinforcing the understanding of the momentary nature of these conditioned namas. As you say, no ‘samaadiyaami’ (I undertake), but in context, perhaps not to be expected? To repeat the line from the commentary on the Minor Readings (paramatthajotikaa) 11,19 again --not sure what the Pali is-- “In the case of householders, when one[precept] is broken then only that is broken, and consequently the fivefoldness of their virtue becomes effective again as soon as that one alone is reundertaken.” More relevant to your point perhaps is Dispeller (Sammohavinodanii),Classification of the Jhanas,1692. “In the word explanation of samaadaaya sikkhati skkhaapadesu (“He trains himself by undertaking the precepts of training”), bhikkhusikkha (“bhikkhus’ training”) is the training to be trained in by bhikkhus.......bhikkhuiisikkhaa (“bhikkhuniis’ training”)..........the training of novices, female probationers and female novies is included here too. Upaasakasikkhaa (“lay devotees’ training”) is the training to be trained in by lay devotees. that may be taken as the five precepts and the ten precepts. Upaasikaasikkhaa (“women devotees’ training”).........five and the ten precepts.” Not sure if this helps??? Metta, Sarah ===== 25544 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi again Jim & all on this thread, Three posts in one day to you.....comments only *if* anyone wishes;-) I'm just adding more quotes which may be relevant. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi again, > > I was interested in seeing if I could find any passages where the > Buddha explicitly refers to the five as training-precepts > (sikkhaapadaani) and found one at AN IX.20 (Velaama Sutta) in a > dialogue with Anathapindaka: > ***** Also: Dispeller, 14Classification of the Training Precepts, 1905 1905 “Now in the classification of the Training Preepts next to that, pa~nca (five) is the division by number. Sikkhaapadaani (training precepts): precepts to be trained in; ‘portions of training’ is the meaning. Furthermore, all the profitable states handed down above [S: in earlier sections] are trainings (sikkhaa) because they should be trained in.. but any factor among the five factors of virtuous conduct is a basis (pada) for those trainings in the sense of foundation; thus because of being the bases for trainings (sikkhaana.m padattaa), they are precepts (bases) of training....... 1907”Suraamerayamajjapamaada.t.thaanaa (from causes for indulgence in the intoxicants of liquor and strong drink): here suraa (liquor) is of five kinds........the volition whereby they drink is the pamaada.t.thaana (cause of negligence) because of being the reason for negligence..... 1908”But because not only just abstention is a training precept but volition also is a training precept, therefore there is a second method for pointing it out. And because a training precept is not only these two things but also the fifty and more things [S -I take this as the other cetasikas inc hiri and ottappa] associated with volition, because of being a ‘portion of what is to be trained’, are training precepts too. Therefore a third method is taught too. Herein training precept is of two kinds, training precept in the figurative sense (pariyaaya) and training precept in the literal sense (nippariyaaya). Herein, abstention (virati) is the training precept in the literal sense......for it is the hostile volition at the time of transgression that is called misconduct (dussiilya), therefore that volition is stated by way of good conduct (susiilya) even at the time of abstention. Impression [phassa], etc are included because of being associated with it............... 1921 “Drinking of liquor in the drinking of as much as a small measure (pasata) is less to blame; in the drinking of as much as the cupped hands full (a~njali) it is more to blame; but that which causes the bodily unsteadiness in one who, after drinking much, does the work of destroying a village or destroying a town is unreservedly more to blame. “As to the killing of living things, the slaughter of one whose cankers are destroyed is the more to blame............taking what is not given.......misconduct, it is the transgression with a bhikkhuni whose cankers are destroyed..........But the most to blame of all these is the causing of schism in the Order by false speech; for that is most frightful and causes roasting in hell for an aeon.” 1931 “ “As to breaking”: for lay people only that which is transgressed is broken, spoilt; the rest are not spoilt. Why? Because lay people have transitory virtuous conduct; they keep whatever precepts they can.” ***** Also see Dispeller, ‘Classification of Knowledge’2082, which summarises about how the precepts are referred to as virtuous conduct whether Buddhas teach or not. However the sila of the Patimokkha exceeds all other kinds of virtuous conduct and is only taught by a Buddha. this is ‘higher virtue’ ***** > ". . . though with pious heart he took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma > and the Order, greater would have been the fruit thereof, had he with > pious heart undertaken to keep the precepts [sikkhaapadaani]: > abstention from taking life, from taking what is not given, from > carnal lusts, from lying and from intoxicating liquor, the cause of > sloth." -- GS iv p. 265 > > That is enough to convince me that the five precepts are indeed > well-grounded in the Buddha's teachings. .... There is more on the Velaama sutta in the Khadira”ngaara Jataka (no40).The Buddha tells Anathapindika (who has given away all his wealth) “ “householder, in giving this unplalatable gift, you are giving it to those who have entered on the Noble Eightfold Path. Whereas I, when in Velaama’s time I stirred up all India.....I found none who had reached the Three Refuges or kept the Five commandments; for rare are those who are worthy of offerings. Therefore, let not your heart be troubled by the thought that your gift is unpalatable.” And so saying, he repeated the Velaamaka Sutta.” Maybe here, the reference to the five precepts refers to sotapannas and above? The Buddha also says to Anathapindika here: “You, householder, are a converted man and an elect disciple; your faith and your vision is purified.” Metta, Sarah ====== 25546 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question again :To Nina Dear Nina Thank you very much for your attention! I am very looking forward to reading the new translation for better understandings! May I ask you a question(^^)? Nibbana is defined as visankhara(unconditioned) nama in theravada tradition. Could you please let me know the reason in theravada tradition why nibbana is not only non-sankhara ,but also non-sankhara nama. Best wishes from LC --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear LC, > Please, I hope you will come back to us after your retreat. I like your > questions. You asked about latent tendencies and there is so much to study > about them. In a few weeks I shall begin to tranlate from Thai about this > subject: whwere are the latent tendencies and how are they eradicated. But I > have to finish first three more chapters of the first Book I am translating. > Nina. > op 22-09-2003 19:35 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > > > I just do like to clarify what are unclear to me before I go into > > retreat. 25547 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:18am Subject: Question about Citta Dear everyone, I have a question (please don't laugh at my ignorance :-)) I know that Citta (Consciousness) always arises with a set of Cetasikas. My question is: Is there a Citta that exists by itself? (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) Another way to formulate my question: Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? (ie. Citta has only itself as object) Thanks. KKT 25548 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:05am Subject: Tiika Vis. 16 Relevant passage of Visuddhimagga: Vis:16. 9. In the third triad, it is increase that is called "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these things to mind [440] both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase, development, and perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of understanding ... [for words elided see Dhs. 16] ... non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in improvement' (Vbh. 325-26). Vis : 16. tatiyattike aayo naama vuddhi, saa duvidhaa anatthahaanito atthuppattito ca. tattha kosalla.m aayakosalla.m. yathaaha -- ``tattha katama.m aayakosalla.m? ime me dhamme manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva akusalaa dhammaa na uppajjanti, uppannaa ca akusalaa dhammaa pahiiyanti, ime vaa panime dhamme manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva kusalaa dhammaa uppajjanti. uppannaa ca kusalaa dhammaa bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa sa.mvattantiiti, yaa tattha pa~n~naa pajaananaa...pe0... amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi, ida.m vuccati aayakosalla''nti (vibha0 771). Tiika:16. words: sampatti: benefit attha: meaning, benefit. haani: decrease vuddhi: growth uppatti: origin .thiti : maintaining, steadfastness. Text Tiika 16: ayanti etaaya sampattiyoti aayo, vuddhi. As to the word improvement, this means: improvement in this benefit, growth. tattha kosallanti tasmi.m anatthahaaniatthuppattilakkha.ne aaye kosalla.m kusalataa nipu.nataa. Here, the word skill means : skill in improvement with regard to this characteristic of diminution of harm and arousing of benefit, wholesomeness, accomplishment. ta.m pana ekantika.m aayakosalla.m paa.livaseneva dassetu.m ``ime dhamme''tiaadi vutta.m. ³These dhammas etc.² * is said, in order to show that this surely is skill in improvement according to the text. tattha ida.m vuccatiiti yaa imesa.m akusaladhammaana.m anuppattipahaanesu, Here this is called **, means, that which is understanding concerning the non-arising and abandoning of these unprofitable dhammas, kusaladhammaana~nca uppatti.t.thitiisu pa~n~naa, and the arousing and maintaining of these profitable dhammas, ida.m aayakosalla.m naamaati vuccati. is called skill in improvement. ****** English: As to the word improvement, this means: improvement in this benefit, growth. Here, the word skill means : skill in improvement with regard to this characteristic of diminution of harm and arousing of benefit, wholesomeness, accomplishment. ³These dhammas etc.² * is said, in order to show that this surely is skill in improvement according to the text. Here this is called **, means, that which is understanding concerning the non-arising and abandoning of these unprofitable dhammas, and the arousing and maintaining of these profitable dhammas, is called skill in improvement. --------------- * In paying attention to these dhammas. ** This is called skill in improvement. ******* 25549 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 14, last section Hi Larry, op 24-09-2003 01:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Here is the usual understanding of "attainment" (samapatti) according to > Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": > > "samápatti: 'attainments', is a name for the 8 absorptions of the > fine-material and immaterial spheres to which occasionally is added as > 9th attainment, attainment of extinction (nirodhasamápatti) Cf. > jhána." N: We have to see the context. This whole section, as Jon said, is about understanding. This is stressed very much in Vis. 16: at the end: > L: I agree nibbana can be an object of jhana and therefore "attainment" > would also apply to this kind of Path moment but the reference to > attainment wasn't limited to this. N: We have to be careful. Nibbana can be experienced by lokuttara jhanacitta. Or, for those who did not develop jhana: the right concentration accompanying the maggacitta has the intensity of jhana, but nibbana is the object. L:At this point I am inclined to stress > the "having" in "having attained an attainment". This suggests to me an > insight knowledge may arise after jhana but still within the jhana > "mind-set". N: But what about the many, many people, also in the Buddha's time who did not develop jhana? L:Within jhana itself, we might possibly say the agenda of > analyzing jhana factors and gradually releasing them in order to > progress to greater tranquility (peace) as well as the rational behind > suppressing the hindrances *inclines toward* insight into the general > characteristics which would be present in the form of the hindrances and > the jhana factors. However, I think it more likely the reference was to > post jhana insight. N: Suppressing the hindrances: this is not in the development of insight: knowing them as they are, as non-self. Now these texts on kosalla, skill, make clear that also akusala non-arisen or already arisen have to be known. These are the four right efforts, sammavayama of the eightfold Path. Insight, not jhana. When there is right understanding of whatever arises, also akusala, the Path is being developed. L: I am tempted to call this insight "intuition" in order to differentiate > it from "reason" and "hearing". But "intuition" is such a vague idea I'm > not sure. What do you think? N: It can denote direct understanding. I have to come back to reason and hearing, because reasoning is used here in a different context: one's own thinking and practice (cinta includes also practice) without having heard from someone else: Buddhas are able to develop panna without having heard it in that life, from someone else. Nina. 25550 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:20am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear LC, Thanks for your interest and persistent focusing on Dhamma. I totally believe that there were 6 Sangha meetings. What The Buddha accurately said will not be possible to carry over. The Buddha said and preached in simple language in His time. I do not think The Buddha was preaching in verse ( or Lanka or song ). We can imagine that 45 years ( 16425 days ) preaching and speaking were a lot. The main facts were carried over verbally. Literature was started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. 5th meeting records are still there in Burma. In the last capital of Burmese kingdom called Mandalay ( in northern Burma ). In that city, to the northeast is a hill called Mandalay (so the city, which origionally was ' Ratanabon ' a compilation of jewel was changed to Mandalay ). At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. 6th meeting was done in Yangon, the capital of today Myanmar. There are books related to the 6th meeting. It is the purest source. If you can understand Pali, it will help you a lot. I have read some words that stated '' the eighth sense ''. I was shocked to hear that. Anyway, if there is still in doubt about anything, please do not hesitate. We all should try to our best. This is study area. So it is called '' Dhamma Study Group ''. Isn't it? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25551 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:31am Subject: Re: Question about Citta Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself is one. Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear everyone, > > > I have a question > (please don't laugh at my ignorance :-)) > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > My question is: > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > > Another way to formulate my question: > > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) > > > Thanks. > > > KKT 25552 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:56am Subject: Re: Question about Citta Dear Htoo Naing, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself is one. Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing KKT: Thanks for answering my question. I know that I've formulated my question wrongly. Yes, << Citta cannot arise itself >> as you stated. Citta as well as Cetasikas arise by conditions. My question should be: Is there a Citta << without Cetasikas >> ? (ie. Citta as subject and object of itself and there is no other Cetasika) It seems that your answer is Yes, isn't it? If Yes then I'll have another question. Thanks, KKT ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear everyone, > > > I have a question > (please don't laugh at my ignorance :-)) > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > My question is: > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > > Another way to formulate my question: > > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) > > > Thanks. > > > KKT 25553 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 0:09pm Subject: Re: Question about Citta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: Dear Htoo Naing, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself is one. Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing KKT: Thanks for answering my question. I know that I've formulated my question wrongly. Yes, << Citta cannot arise itself >> as you stated. Citta as well as Cetasikas arise by conditions. My question should be: Is there a Citta << without Cetasikas >> ? (ie. Citta as subject and object of itself and there is no other Cetasika) It seems that your answer is Yes, isn't it? If Yes then I'll have another question. KKT: Sorry, I missed your last phrase: << there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika >> So your answer is NO, right? My next question is: What is the << in-between >> of the falling-away of one Citta and the arising of the next Citta? Thanks. KKT 25554 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Dear L.C., op 24-09-2003 15:08 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > Nibbana is defined as visankhara(unconditioned) nama in theravada > tradition. > > Could you please let me know the reason in theravada tradition why > nibbana is not only non-sankhara ,but also non-sankhara nama. N: Nibbana is asankhata dhaatu, unconditioned element. It is not rupa: aruupino: without materiality. This is said in the Dhammasangani: see "Buddhist psychological Ethics". § 1092. It is nama. But different from citta and cetasikas which are namas that experience an object. The Co, the Expositor, II, The Summary, Suttanta Couplets: the meanings of nama are: name making, bending, causing to bend. The Pali namati means: to bend. Nameti: to cause to bend. Citta and cetasikas bend to wards an object, they experience an object. They also cause one another to bend toward an object. Nibbana does not bend toward an object, but it is the object of lokuttara citta. Thus, it causes to bend. Nina. 25555 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Citta Dear KKT, op 24-09-2003 17:18 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...:> > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) N: Impossible. But the accompanying cetasikas are not its objects, they assist citta to experience an object that presents itself, be it rupa or nama. > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) N: no. It does not have itself as object. It can be aware of another citta or cetasika that has just fallen away. When rupa impinges on a sense-door there are cittas in a process which experience that rupa which has not fallen away. After that rupa is experienced in a mind-door process when it has just fallen away. With citta as object, it is different, rupa lasts longer than citta, it can be object during a whole sense-door process of different cittas, all of which experoence that rupa. Citta falls away immediately. Citta can experience another nama, citta or cetasika, in a mind-door process. That citta or cetasika which is the object has just fallen away. Your question is good, and I hope it is somewhat clearer now? An example: you have dosa, aversion, and you know it. That dosa falls away immediately, and another citta knows that there was dosa, or it has aversion about the dosa, or it considers with understanding that dosa is a conditioned reality. It is hard to realize that cittas fall away so extremely fast, that there are already other moments of citta which have as object the past dosa. It just seems to be the same moment, but that is an illusion. People are discouraged about akusala and believe that there cannot be awareness of it. First there may be aversion, and then understanding can be developed about aversion. That is another moment which is kusala accompanied by panna. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching so many details about dhammas. Nina. 25556 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question about Citta Dear KKT, op 24-09-2003 21:09 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > What is the << in-between >> > of the falling-away of one Citta > and the arising of the next Citta? N: the citta that has fallen away is a condition for the next citta. This condiiton is: anantara paccaya, contiguity condition. Anantara means: no "antara", nothing in between. Antara means: in between. Only the dying citta of the arahat is not succeeded by a next citta, no more rebirth. Nina. 25557 From: Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah In a message dated 9/16/2003 2:36:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > TG: >I suspect that Arahats: rather than being without any view that > people > >actually exist; I suspect rather, that arahats have the correct view as > >to how they > >exist (what they are.) > ..... > Sarah: I’d say that when sakkaya ditthi (personality view) has been > eradicated, > there is no more view of any kind that ‘people actually exist’. > .... "Personality view" has to do with whether there is a view that there is a self, soul, controler, agent, entity, etc., that persists apart from mere conditions. Since such a condition does not exist, personality-view is an incorrect view. However, as you point out next, nama and rupas do exist...and yes...people are made up of nama and rupas. Therefore...people exist based on that. People = The 5 Aggregates, and the 12 Fold Chain indicates the systematic dynamics that power them. I don't think that personality-view, self-view, identity-view, or whatever term suits you, has anything to do with whether or not people exist. The conditions that generate what we call a person do occur. People and animals and plants actually do arise. There is just no self that arises along with those conditions. To use an old expression...I think saying -- "people don't exist" is like "throwing out the baby with the bath water." There's hundreds if not thousands of instances of the Buddha saying "there is no self" in the suttas. Can't recall one of him saying "there are no people." (On much rarer occasions he says there is no "being," but I read it as a reference to "self.") To view people as nama and rupas is at best a good stepping stone to progress away from self view. But if it stops there, it has failed. The nama and rupa views become there own little "self/entity-views" and one has failed to understand that insight into conditionality is for the purpose of liberating the mind from those types of views -- (self-views/delusions/attachments that generate suffering.) > TG: >I think they see them as "unfolding causal > >occurrences" that are bewildered and trapped in an interactive (pain > >generating) system. > .... > Sarah: I think they would see this description as a set of concepts with > little > bearing on the namas and rupas which are the only phenomena which actually > exist;-) It's one of the ironies of Buddhism that it requires a maze of complex concepts in order to overcome the delusion which normally fuels concepts. I'm not even sure if there is any document in the world more conceptually complex than the abhidhamma with the suttas right there as well. My statement is intended to express a "world condition," insight of which, if comprehended, would hopefully induce the mind to turn away from self view and attachment. I believe the above short sentence managed to incorporate conditionality, impermanence, no-self (by implication) and affliction regarding human beings. And yet you read it as a set of concepts that had little bearing on nama and rupa. That's your "choice/interpretation." (Due to conditions.) Since you believe that nama and rupas are the only phenomena that actually exist, I suggest that my statement should have been read with that in mind. What else could it possibly refer to? The view that nama and rupa are realities is a "personification" of states. It can't but help make them "entities" in the mind. As long as you understand that and know that such views are only stepping stones to escaping such views (as part of the process of overcoming affliction), they may do no harm -- as an insight stepping stone. If the view is held on to, it is just attachment and delusion. > .. > TG: >With this "correct view," how could arahats not have compassion (or > >friendliness)? :) > > > >This is perhaps what you meant anyway. > ..... > Sarah: Not really :-) Another paraphrase gone astray??? > I know it’s hard to understand how with the full appreciation that what we > take for people and things are only namas and rupas that these same > ‘people and things’ can be the objects of mana, metta and even of panna, > but not of satipatthana. This relates to the discussions Howard, Toby and > I have been having too. The point is that concepts, including people, are > still objects of cittas (consciousness) for ariyans with no more wrong > view, just as they are for us now. The difference is that there is no > illusion that these concepts represent realities in anyway. Although I > agree that namas and rupas are conditioned or ‘causal’, I’m not sure they > can be referred to as ‘occurrences’. Perhaps you’d clarify. Does > ‘unfolding’ refer to ‘impermanent’ or ‘changing’? Sorry to be so > paticular. (It must be the abhidhamma which has crept in....LOL ...can’t > leave home without it, but then I read abhidhamma in the suttas too;-)). Concepts, including people, -- including rupa, including nama, including paramattha dhammas are all false when they are viewed as entities or self in any way...i.e., basically whenever they are conceptualized in the unenlightened mind. My understanding is that -- Arahats have overcome "self-view", not "non-reality-view." The illusion they have overcome is that there is any self in any way, shape, or form. I suspect that terming nama and rupa as "realities" to destroy concepts like "people"...is letting the concepts of nama and rupa off "Scott Free." It seems as if you are positing some kind of intrinsic quality to nama and rupas. They have none. They arise due to conditional interactions that also arose due to conditional interactions. They are empty and selfless. Any view of them is ultimately an impediment to liberation. (In the unliberated mind.) Yes, unfolding in the way I used it is meant to refer to impermanence and causality. The two cannot be separated. I find it fascinating that you so freely and strongly use the term "exist" to nama and rupa but that the term "occur" troubles you to some degree. Can something exist without occuring? Actually, the word "exist" bothers me to some degree because I think it is heavily charged with self-view tendencies. I find the word "occur" to be much less "substantial" and more accurate (in my mind anyway.) The bottom line is...if the knowledge you are developing is leading away from affliction, then it has merit to whatever degree it succeeds. TG 25558 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:42am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear Htoo Nating Thanks for your constant attention with metta! > We can imagine that 45 years ( 16425 days ) preaching and speaking > were a lot. The main facts were carried over verbally. Literature was > started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. Could you give me names of the literateture ? Why were they not included at the 3 th meeting ? > At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th > Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If > you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. I do want to go to Myanmar for retreat before long. If I have a chance , I will go to see them too. I do not know if this question is appropriate or not, but Do you know any reliable sayadaws who teach samatha before we go on to vipassana bhavana ? > I have read some words that stated '' the eighth sense ''. I was > shocked to hear that. I can just imagine you were shocked (^^). >Anyway, if there is still in doubt about anything, please do not hesitate. We all should try to our best. This > is study area. So it is called '' Dhamma Study Group ''. Isn't it? Thanks a lot! from LC 25559 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi Derek & Htoo, Thank you both for your input here. These are sensitive issues. I understand Nina’s reluctance to translate the Dhamma issue on incest which seems so obvious, but also touches on other areas of misconduct which, as RobertK said, some of us discussed last year. I also sympathised with Christine’s comment that some of Htoo’s remarks seemed like ‘interesting and quaint ideas from long ago and far away’. As far as the teachings are concerned I’m not sure we can dismiss them so easily, however. ..... --- Derek Cameron wrote: H: > > But for lay people it is confusing, isn't it? > D: > I don't know of any suttas that explicitly address these subjects. > Even the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), often considered the code of > conduct for laypeople, doesn't give a definition of kaamesu > micchaacaaraa. (BTW anyone know what the commentary says?) > > Perhaps the best we can say is that this isn't a subject the Buddha > ever addressed. ..... I would have said the same, but in the sutta (and Jim’s post) I quoted from the other day, the Cakkavatti-Siihanaada Sutta (DN 26), we read: “And among the generation whose life-span was five hundred years, three things increased: incest, excessive greed and deviant practices*.....and as a result, the children of those whose life-span had been five hundred years lived, some for two hundred and fifty years, some for only two hundred. And among those whose life-span was two hundred and fifty years, these things increased: lack of respect for mother and father, for ascetics and Brahmins, and for the head of the clan.” In my other post I continued to quote about how a time will come when there is a life-span of only ten years. Girls will be ‘marriageable at five years old’. Food delicacies will disappear and the 10 kusala kamma-patha will disappear completely with the 10 akusala kamma-patha very prevalent. There will be no word for ‘moral ‘(kusala). Those who show no respect for parents, ascetics and so on will ‘enjoy honour and prestige’ (just as in King Pasenadi’s dream in the Jataka Tales). “All will be promiscuous in the world like goats and sheep, fowl and pigs, dogs and jackals.” There will be fierce enmity, hatred, killing. Eventually there will be a ‘turn around’ after the seven day ‘sword interval’. People will realise that the addiction to evil ways has led to terrible results and they start to abstain from taking life and so on. Life spans start to increase again. Only when they return to eighty thousand years will the next Buddha, Metteyya appear. * Note to Walshe translation says: “Micchaa-dhamma. DA (commentary) says ‘men with men, women with women’. Sacred Books transl (TW and Mrs Rhys Davids): “Among humans of the latter span of life, brethren, three things grew apace: incest, wanton greed, and perverted lust. Thereby the life-span of those beings and their comeliness wasted..........two centuries”. You or Htoo may be able to check the Pali and comy. ==================================== 25560 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! Hi Icaro and ‘sensitive matter thread’ folks, --- icarofranca wrote: > (At the last episode...) > > The Paramattha Dhammas are the main structure of all Buddhism and > the golden bricks that Reality are made of. .... Right and we all agree that these golden bricks of Reality consist of all namas and rupas, I think? .... > > White T-Shirts, Socks, Pants, Toothbrush, shaving blade... > > At the first glance, these Dhammas are classified in two main > categories: the first one is nipphanannarupa, produced by the catuja > (kamma, citta, utu, ahara), that are "Real" because they are material > and entirely grounded on Rupa. ..... I would say these Dhammas (the four great elements, sensitive phenomena, etc as you listed last time) are ‘real’ because they have characteristics and can be directly known. ..... > ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ONE ! > - AFTER A MUTTON SCÉANCE, WHAT´S REALITY ? > > Bootcamp! > > Living at the barracks, among other doughboys, it´s a matter of > adaptability: one must get good manners on standing up at bed, to > attend the calling of Nature in the common bathroom,to shave one´s > own face (Rasée la figure, in French),to put on the camp uniform and > to get a good place to take the breakfast! > [..] .... I hope all your training in the field and Abhidhamma textbooks is being put to good use;-) .... > Are these affairs a set of "Real" things ? > At this point of our journey, we will meet the second group of > Paramattha Dhammas: > Ten elements that are considered not real (anipphanannarupa). > 1. akasa - space > Communication (viññatti) - > 2. bodily language (kayaniññatti) > 3. vocal intimation (vagiviññatti) > These two are produced by mind. ..... This is a little difficult and Nina ‘corrected’ your same statement once before about the anipphanna (non-concrete) rupas not being real. As far as I understand from the texts, ALL rupas are considered real (28 rupa paramattha dhammas), even though these are not ‘nipphanna’ (concrete matter). I’d be glad if you’d share any references from the Abhidhamma texts which suggest they are ‘not real’. Paramattha by definition means ultimate or actual, I think. ..... > And there are also other mutable material qualities: > 4. lightness (lahuta) > 5. softness (muduta) > 6. adaptability (kamma??ata) > These three are produced without kamma. > [lots of reluctant snipping this end;-(] > > Other Characteristics of material qualities (lakkhanarupa) > 7. material productivity - beginning (upacaya) > 8. continuity (santati) > 9. decay (jarata) > 10. impermanence (aniccata) ... These are characteristics of rupas, but still classified under paramattha rupas. As you listed last time, the sensitive matter (eye-sensitivity etc) which Larry and others have been discussing was all listed in the first 18 nipphanna rupa. (see CMAp236). ..... > All in this world of Dukkha rises and falls at the same patterns: > from upacaya to anicatta, the food dish in front of my eyes at the > begin of lunch is filled (or produced by the cook) of rice, beams and > meat. Time runs out. And at last the food dish is empty of mundane > food. All material processes in world follow up the same path, that´s > not "real" as a material and finite thing. > > Finally, we get a full list of Paramattha Dhammas: The first 18 > plus these 10 make the classical and canonical 28 rupas! .... 28 paramattha ‘real’ rupas;-) .... > And I´ll become a vegetarian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .... Logic??? No more mutton sceances?? ..... > O Noble flock of Dhamma followers! Don´t deny my advice: stay > tuned for more Dhamma Days at the Military Bootcamp !!!!!!!!! > > Next Episode: > > "ICARO DAMMA´S DIARY, CHAPTER TWO: > The FLEEEEEECE of a good soldier is a good uniform!" .... I’m very tuned and very appreciative (even if I don’t speak Icarish like Connie;-)). Sounds like bootcamp’s going very well with lots of good paramattha reminders;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 25561 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Dear Nina I found your past post on the same topic at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15339?source=1 Thanks to you , I can understand well. from LC --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear L.C., > op 24-09-2003 15:08 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > > > Nibbana is defined as visankhara(unconditioned) nama in theravada > > tradition. > > > > Could you please let me know the reason in theravada tradition why > > nibbana is not only non-sankhara ,but also non-sankhara nama. > N: Nibbana is asankhata dhaatu, unconditioned element. It is not rupa: > aruupino: without materiality. This is said in the Dhammasangani: see > "Buddhist psychological Ethics". § 1092. > It is nama. But different from citta and cetasikas which are namas that > experience an object. > The Co, the Expositor, II, The Summary, Suttanta Couplets: the meanings of > nama are: name making, bending, causing to bend. The Pali namati means: to > bend. Nameti: to cause to bend. Citta and cetasikas bend to wards an object, > they experience an object. They also cause one another to bend toward an > object. > Nibbana does not bend toward an object, but it is the object of lokuttara > citta. Thus, it causes to bend. by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object.> > Nina.. 25562 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Hi LC, --- lokuttaracitta wrote: > Dear Nina > > > I found your past post on the same topic at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15339?source=1 > > Thanks to you , I can understand well. .... I'm greatly appreciating all your qus and interest (also KKT, glad to see yours;-)). If you haven't found the U.P., I think you might find some of the posts there, for example on nibbana, to be useful. You're most welcome to raise anything you find. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah Given your M.background and interest in anusaya, ayuhana etc, you may find part of this old post of mine of some relevance. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11878.html ..... 25563 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim Very interesting, and thanks very much. I obviously need to spend some time looking into the Dhs and Atthasalini. My reading to date has been almost exclusively confined to the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha and Visuddhi-Magga (apart of course from the many quotes from the texts themselves that Nina has included in her writings or that are quoted on this list). Just going back to your previous post, you point out that: "The Expositor explains how all these extra dhammas [the aruupino dhammas] (except citta) are reduced to the list of 52 [cetasikas]. Samatha is included in the cetasika one-pointedness (ekaggataa)." That being so, then the 'samatha' in the excerpts you quote here from Dhs is the universal (and ethically variable) cetasika more commonly known as ekaggataa. As you will know, the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha also gives a similar explanation regarding the factors that constitute the bala-s, indriya-s, path factors (mentioned in your list of 6 below); indeed the whole 37 bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma (requisites of enlightenment) are said to be reducible to 13 cetasikas, and citta. My question however really related to the 'samatha' of samatha bhavana as one finds discussed, for example, in the section of the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha dealing with samatha and vipassana (kamma.t.thaanasanganavibhaaga, samathasangaha). Of course I am using the translations, CMA Ch IX and STA Ch 9, but it is clear that the meaning here is not simply ekaggataa cetasika. To my understanding, all moments of samatha bhavana are ~naa.nasampayutta.m (accompanied by wisdom), just as all moments of vipassana bhavana are ~naa.nasampayutta.m. The difference lies in the level of wisdom and the nature of the object of the wisdom. Further, as I understand it, the 'Samaadhi' section of Vism deals with samatha bhavana while the 'Panna' section deals with vipassana bhavana. Is what I have just said consistent with the Abhidhamma texts as you read them, Jim? Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > When we are using the classification system of the 52 cetasikas as > enumerated in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, one would have to include > 'samatha' under the general term 'ekaggataa'. But in the > Atthasalini > (Expositor, p. 178), the general term used is 'samaadhi' > (concentration) which is classified in 6 places (in all kusala > states) > as follows: > > 1. cittass'ekaggataa (a jhaana-factor) > 2. samaadhindriya (a faculty) > 3. sammaasamaadhi (a path-factor) > 4. samaadhibala (a power or strength) > 5. samatha (calm) > 6. avikkhepa (non-distraction) > > In akusala states, no.3 is changed into micchaasamaadhi. Dhs §1189 > defines cetasika dhammas as vedanaakkhandha, sa~n~naakkhandha, > sa"nkhaarakkhandha. I think one can refer to any one of the above > six categories of samaadhi as a cetasika dhamma in the Abhidhammic > system > of the Dhammasangani but in the other simplified system one can > only use the 'ekaggataa' term for all six. > > N.B.: I just spotted a big error in the PTS edn. of Atthasaalinii > (p. > 135): "Magga"ngaani patvaa samaadhindriyan ti." should read > "Magga"ngaani patvaa sammaasamaadhii ti." Fortunately, the > translation > in The Expositor is okay. ... > No, I see that samatha is an associated dhamma that is found in all > kusala states with or without pa~n~naa including the > lokuttaracittas > (see Dhs §334). If a citta associated with knowledge has a > paramattha > dhamma as object, then the associated samatha will also take the > same paramattha object. Note that in the Asankhatasamyutta of the > Samyutta > Nikaya, the Buddha states that 'samatha' is a path (one of many) > leading to the Unconditioned, etc. I think the crucial difference > between kusala and akusala states is the presence > or absence of sati. > > Best wishes, > Jim 25564 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Nicely explained, Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Dan, > > Seems like a long time since we've talked. Hope you're all doing well and > well-settled. > > --- "Dan D." wrote: > >Can you elaborate on > > the charactistics of hiri and ottappa and how we can distinguish > > these wholesome "fears" from the dosa-derived "fear" of which you > > speak? > .... > Many thanks for this opportunity to reflect further on this useful topic. > > I think that pretty well anytime there is any aspect of fear as generally > understood, any worry, anxiety or story related to the `abstaining', the > cittas are most likely to be uwholesome. As we know, a knowledge of Dhamma > is not necessary for understanding the value of wholesome states and the > harm of unwholesome ones. When I was writing, I was reflecting on the time > when I stopped drinking alcohol completely (and taking any other > `intoxicants'). This was before I knew anything about the Buddha or his > teachings and was mostly a result of a) seeing the harm of the effects on > both my own mental states and actions and also on others dear to me , b) > seeing the ease and danger of its addictive nature, c) fear (dosa ) of the > results of continuing in this course of action. > > A few years ago (well, maybe 15), Jon and I went to a resort and were > given a welcome fruit drink. I was thirsty and took a gulp, only to find > it was alcoholic. My reaction was over-the-top annoyance at not having > been told and so on. Actually, the fear was very apparent. Even now, I > have this kind of fear at the thought of unknowingly being given alcohol > or some other intoxicant. In my case, it also applies to coffee which I > used to be quite addicted to and had to give up completely;-(. > > By contrast, hiri (scruples or conscience) and ottappa (shame) arise > immediately with all wholesome states. At moments of abstaining wisely > from any unwholesomeness, the hiri and ottappa are `scrupulous'. As Jon > said `we cannot `think' our way to kusala by the choice of a particular > object of thought'. At moments of dana, sila or bhavana, hiri and ottappa > arise without any thought or prompting. Like Andrew and others have said, > this is very different from `turning rules over in one's head' and these > precious cittas are accompanied by a genuine calm and `lighteness' from > akusala. > > I see the precepts and all other reminders of kusala as advice and > guidance to prompt wise reflection and accompanying hiri and ottappa, > rather than any special paying of attention or focussing on particular > objects. KenH also said `when we abstain with kusala motives, the > abstaining is done before we have even thought about it.' I think this > applies to all kinds of kusala - hence the daily life applicability. > > In brief, I don't find `fear' a useful word to use for these wholesome > states because it is so easily confused with unwholesome fear. Perhaps > it's easier to consider hiri and ottappa as the opposites of shamelessness > and recklessness which accompany all unwholesome states, when there is no > seeing their harm. > > I'd be glad to hear your reflections, too, Dan. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s I know Dan is very familiar with Nina's `Cetasikas', but others may > like to read the chapter in that book on these sobhana (beautiful) > cetasikas. > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > ============================ 25565 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "As I understand it, there is no way to develop jhaana other > than by samatha bhaavanaa. In encouraging jhaana, the Buddha was > encouraging the development of samatha. Are we agreed?" > > Hi Jon, > > I agree. Good. Then let's continue. Developing samatha is different from developing concentration. There is no kusala involved in simply focussing on an object, even an object such as a kasina or the breath. Are we still agreed? Jon PS Regarding your PS (below), the text you are quoting from, Vism Ch XIV, 16, is part of the description of the different kinds of *understanding*, begining at para 8 of that chapter. The corresponding passage dealing with *concentration* is at Ch III, 5 to 25. There is some very interesting stuff there. However, there is no argument from me on the proposition that the development of samatha requires 'skill', since samatha bhaavanaa is kusala of a very high level. But the skill of samatha is different from the skill of vipassana. It is very helpful to learn more about the difference between the two; this will support the development of both (while confusion about this distinction makes the development of either a much more difficult task). > ps: Concerning whether development of samatha requires "skill": > > Vism. XIV 16: In the third triad, it is increase that is called > "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the > arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according > as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? ... 25566 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: six Councils, to Htoo and Suan. Dear Htoo and Suan, I do not know anything about the 5th -sixth council. Was something new added? Were there conroversies? At the fourth: the teachings were put into writing? Nina. op 24-09-2003 20:20 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Literature was > started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. > > 5th meeting records are still there in Burma. In the last capital of > Burmese kingdom called Mandalay ( in northern Burma ). In that city, > to the northeast is a hill called Mandalay (so the city, which > origionally was ' Ratanabon ' a compilation of jewel was changed to > Mandalay ). > > At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th > Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If > you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. > > 6th meeting was done in Yangon, the capital of today Myanmar. There > are books related to the 6th meeting. It is the purest source. 25567 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: Pali study in Bgk. Dear Sarah, I just like to add a little more info. A. Sujin has for many years asking the meaning of Pali terms to Pali experts such as A. Somporn, who knows by heart the derivation of almost every term. As I mentioned before, I was present at the Board meeting on Sunday after a long day of sessions. All books and dictinaries are pulled out and the texts are studied in depth. A. Sujin asked: is there another meaning of this term? She will keep on asking. Different texts where the term occurs are compared, scriptures, commentaries and subcommentaries. I think that is very important. Nina. op 24-09-2003 09:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I have known > people, inc. K.Sujin herself, who do not have a deep knowledge of Pali but > a lot of insight, in my view, into the teachings. 25568 From: Derek Cameron Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi, Sarah, > * Note to Walshe translation says: > "Micchaa-dhamma. DA (commentary) says `men with men, women with women'. > You or Htoo may be able to check the Pali and comy. I did, and Maurice Walshe's translation is correct. Evidently homosexuality was regarded as part of the gradual degradation from the moral ideal. I didn't know that. Derek. 25569 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Citta Dear Nina, Thanks for answering my questions. I have many more questions and I want to proceed slowly if you don't mind. You said that << It (ie. Citta) can be aware of another citta or cetasika that has just fallen away >> As I understand there is only one Citta at a time, right? How could this Citta (which cannot be aware of itself as an actual Citta) be aware of another Citta that has just FALLEN AWAY? We have only one Citta of a time. Thus when one Citta is present, the previous Citta was already finished. There is no << overlap >> between them. Therefore how could the actual Citta be aware of something already finished. I don't see the relation between two successive Cittas. Thank you, Nina. KKT =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear KKT, op 24-09-2003 17:18 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...:> > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) N: Impossible. But the accompanying cetasikas are not its objects, they assist citta to experience an object that presents itself, be it rupa or nama. > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) N: no. It does not have itself as object. It can be aware of another citta or cetasika that has just fallen away. When rupa impinges on a sense-door there are cittas in a process which experience that rupa which has not fallen away. After that rupa is experienced in a mind- door process when it has just fallen away. With citta as object, it is different, rupa lasts longer than citta, it can be object during a whole sense-door process of different cittas, all of which experoence that rupa. Citta falls away immediately. Citta can experience another nama, citta or cetasika, in a mind-door process. That citta or cetasika which is the object has just fallen away. Your question is good, and I hope it is somewhat clearer now? An example: you have dosa, aversion, and you know it. That dosa falls away immediately, and another citta knows that there was dosa, or it has aversion about the dosa, or it considers with understanding that dosa is a conditioned reality. It is hard to realize that cittas fall away so extremely fast, that there are already other moments of citta which have as object the past dosa. It just seems to be the same moment, but that is an illusion. People are discouraged about akusala and believe that there cannot be awareness of it. First there may be aversion, and then understanding can be developed about aversion. That is another moment which is kusala accompanied by panna. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching so many details about dhammas. Nina. 25570 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question about Citta Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear KKT, op 24-09-2003 21:09 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > What is the << in-between >> > of the falling-away of one Citta > and the arising of the next Citta? N: the citta that has fallen away is a condition for the next citta. This condiiton is: anantara paccaya, contiguity condition. Anantara means: no "antara", nothing in between. Antara means: in between. Only the dying citta of the arahat is not succeeded by a next citta, no more rebirth. Nina. KKT: So there is no << in-between >>, no << hole >>, no << gap >>, between two successive Cittas, right? Thus it is not << really incorrect >> to consider the flow of successive Cittas as a << continuous >> flux, is it? Another question: What exists in the << deep >> sleep? Is there Cittas, Cetasikas in deep sleep? With << deep >> sleep I mean << dreamless >> sleep, an << unconscious >> state not very much different from coma. Metta, KKT 25571 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Question about Thought Dear Nina, I have another question (please don't mind :-)) What exactly is << thought >> in Abhidhamma? I mean << thought >> in the common sense that all of us have the same understanding and usage. Metta, KKT 25572 From: Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "Developing samatha is different from developing concentration. There is no kusala involved in simply focussing on an object, even an object such as a kasina or the breath. Are we still agreed?" Hi Jon, I agree developing samatha is different from developing concentration. From my understanding of the conversation between you and Jim it seems that developing samatha isn't necessarily kusala either. If so, can you give an example? What about taking a lot of naps? Larry 25573 From: Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion TG: "The bottom line is...if the knowledge you are developing is leading away from affliction, then it has merit to whatever degree it succeeds." Hi TG & Sarah, I agree. It occurred to me that it doesn't really matter whether one sees a car as arising (ultimate reality) or as non-arising (conventional reality [concept]). If a car is seen as arising then the insight knowledges apply. If a car is seen as non-arising, insight knowledges don't apply but the car can't be found and its identity is very tenuous. This is tantamount to insight knowledge in that it leads to nonattachment. If we avoid saying either "exists" or "doesn't exist" in either case, the ethical viability of kamma is preserved and we don't stray into the extremes of nihilism or eternalism. One point I would like to add is that "reality" is actually a translation of "dhamma". It might be worth considering whether conventional reality (concept) is less "real" than ultimate reality. Both realities are ungraspable. Also, a question for you and Sarah: in terms of self-view, I was wondering how abhidhamma, or the suttas, analyze subjectivity when it manifests as "identifying-with". For example, I can be subjectively angry or objectively angry. Anger can be an object of consciousness which is not angry. Is lobha, dosa, moha as root consciousness personality view? Is "identifying-with" the same as root consciousness? Is alobha, adosa, amoha as root consciousness personality view? Is sati personality view? Larry 25574 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Dear Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: < snip > One point I would like to add is that "reality" is actually a translation of "dhamma". It might be worth considering whether conventional reality (concept) is less "real" than ultimate reality. Both realities are ungraspable. KKT: A pen or a computer is conventional reality (concept) but I can << grasp >> the pen or touch the computer while I am sure I never can experience a Citta or Cetasika. Why? Because I read somewhere that in a blinking of eye there are more than one billion Cittas! What do you think? Metta, KKT 25575 From: Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 19 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 19. 10. In the fourth triad, insight-understanding initiated by apprehending one's own aggregates is "interpreting the internal" (6). That initiated by apprehending another's aggregates or external materiality not bound up with the faculties, [that is, inanimate matter], is "interpreting the external". That initiated by apprehending both is "interpreting the internal and external". So it is of three kinds as interpreting the internal, and so on. (6). The word "abhinivisati" with its noun "abhinivesa" means literally 'to dwell on', and so to adhere, or 'insist'. In the Tipi.taka it always appears in a bad sense and always appears in contexts with wrong view and clinging (see e.g. M.iii, 30-31, Nd. I, 436 and also Ps. quoted above at Ch. I, 140). However, in the Commentaries the word appears also in a good sense as at Ch. XIV, 130, Ch. XXI, 73 and 83f., and at MA.i,250 (cf. "saddha.m nivisati", M.ii,173). In this good sense it is synonymous with "right" interpretation of experience. All the bare experience of perception is interpreted by the mind either in the sense of permanence, pleasure, self, which is wrong because it is not confirmed by experience, or in the sense of impermanence, etc., which is right because it is confirmed by experience (see Ch. XIV, 130). There is no not interpreting experience, and it is a function of the mind that the interpretation adopted is 'dwelt upon', i.e. insisted upon. And so it is this insistence or interpretation in accordance with reality as confirmed by experience that is the "abhinivesa" of the Commentaries in the good sense. For these reasons the words "interpretation", "misinterpretation" and "insistence" have been chosen here as renderings. 25576 From: Derek Cameron Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. P.S. -- > "And among the generation whose life-span was five hundred years, > three things increased: incest, excessive greed and deviant > practices It occurred to me that in the text itself the three things said to have increased are adhammaraago visamalobho micchaadhammo. Literally these three mean something like "unrighteous lust, disagreeable greed, and wrong dhamma [?]". Is the commentator correct in glossing micchaadhamma as homosexuality? Derek. 25577 From: Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion KKT: "A pen or a computer is conventional reality (concept) but I can << grasp >> the pen or touch the computer while I am sure I never can experience a Citta or Cetasika. Why? Because I read somewhere that in a blinking of eye there are more than one billion Cittas! What do you think?" Hi KKT, Usually we would say you can't touch a concept but you can touch a rupa. We experience cittas and cetasikas all the time because that is what experience is. But neither concept, rupa, or citta can be grasped as a solid permanent thing. Concept is supposedly not impermanent (non-arising) but it can't be grasped because it is not solid. If we say computers are not concepts but rupas (and possibly namas) we might say computers last a long time before they disintegrate and they can definitely be held in our hands, but our experience of them only lasts a second. So in that sense they are ungraspable. A third possibility is to say concept and reality arise together. The idea of a computer, various rupas, and interpretations of that idea and rupa compound arise more or less together and then are instantly replaced by different ideas, different rupas and different interpretations. Rupa in this sense is the experience of rupa (color, hardness etc.). The idea is to distinguish between experience that arises, concept that doesn't arise, and interpretation that does arise. Eg: white/black/hard, computer/email/tech. stuff, attraction/aversion/bewilderment. Sarah might want to pitch in something here. She is the one to ask why a concept is non-arising. Larry 25578 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Dear Sarah Thank you for your information ! "Useful_Posts" are really useful. Regarding "store-consciousness" or something like that, All I can say now from my experiences is that " attachement to self " tends to creep into practioners in a very subtle level and give a kind of fatal damage to their spritual development as Buddhists once "latent citta" or " store-consciousness " is assumed as a kind of paramattha dhamma.That is why "authentic" maha-yana traditions including Vajra- yaha ( Dont feel shocked!) have been interpreting the definition of such conciousnesses with the utmost care. Theravadin's( Shoud I say "Buddha's" (^^)? ) stoic attitude toward such a citta should be highly appreciated. Best wishes From LC 25579 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:33pm Subject: parita?E?E?Edharani? Hi, Some buddhist scholar say there are some parita(protection) in pali- canon which are identical with dharani(sanskrit) of maha-yana. All of the parita I have read so far are far from dharani. Is it true that such parita are available in pali-canon? If the answer is "YES", could you give me the examples ? Are they recited often in theravada countries ? From LC "dharani" is a form of spells that is longer than "mantra" and considered to have power to induce various magical effects by its recitaion . It consistes of sounds that carry no explicit meanins ,so it has been untranslated into another languages in most of the cases. 25580 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:53pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 6-8 for comment History of Abhidhamma Slide Contents ============== - Realized by the Buddha the fourth week after His enlightenment - Taught to the Devas in Tâvatimsa heaven for three months during the seventh rainy season retreat - Each day, Buddha gave outline to Sâriputta, who "filled in details" Speaker Notes ============= In the fourth week after enlightenment, the Buddha sat in the Jewel house and contemplated on the Abhidhamma. When the Buddha started contemplating on the most complicated part of the Abhidhamma, Conditional Relations, His body emanated rays of six colours. The Buddha's mother died seven days after giving birth. She was reborn as a male Deva in Tusita heaven. In gratitude to His mother, the Buddha went to Tavatisma heaven to teach the Abhidhamma to his former mother and many other Devas. It took three months of human time (the entire rainy retreat) for the Buddha to complete this task; equivalent to 3.6 minutes of Deva time. Each day, when it was time for His alms-round, He created a Buddha after His own image and willed that the created Buddha teach the Dhamma so much during His absence. After alms-round, He met Sariputta and told him that so much of the Dhamma had been taught during the interval. Three versions of Abhidhamma: - Taught by Buddha in Tavatimsa Heaven (long) - Taught by Buddha to Sariputta (short) - Taught by Sariputta to 500 monks (medium, passed to us) 25581 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:55pm Subject: Back again! Hi Friends, Sorry for the long absence. Please advise if I owe anybody any replies. Metta, Rob M :-) 25582 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi Derek, --- Derek Cameron wrote: > It occurred to me that in the text itself the three things said to > have increased are adhammaraago visamalobho micchaadhammo. Literally > these three mean something like "unrighteous lust, disagreeable > greed, and wrong dhamma [?]". Is the commentator correct in glossing > micchaadhamma as homosexuality? ...... Presumably we are talking about Buddhaghosa’s Suma”ngalavilaasanii, the complete commentary (a.t.thakathaa) to DN, on the basis of the ancient commentaries which he edited and compiled. There is a sub-commentary (.tika) by Dhammapala which explains difficult terms or knotty issues and discusses the rationale and implications further. I don’t know if you have access to this in Pali and whether it sheds any further light on this point. As to whether Buddhaghosa’s commentary is “correct”, I think this depends again on how one considers his work and whether it is acceptable to ‘cherry-pick’ or not;-) If you have access to the .tika or have further comments, I’d be glad to hear. Metta, Sarah ====== 25583 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali study in Bgk. Dear Nina, I agree with all your comments and perhaps when I suggested that K.Sujin doesn’t have a deep knowledge of Pali, it was misleading. I should clarify that what I meant was that she is not an expert in Pali language, as she always says. This is in the sense of being a Pali scholar or grammarian, for example, as I understood Jim to be implying. Of course, as you say, she has a very deep and profound understanding of the texts and Pali terms, as we see it. Like you, we’ve often been present when A.Somporn is called in to help with various meanings or qus about terms and various books are pulled out to clarify. Perhaps we should ask what 'a deep knowledge of Pali' means? ..... >Different texts where the term occurs are > compared, > scriptures, commentaries and subcommentaries. I think that is very > important. .... I agree and apologise if anything I suggested might have implied otherwise. Metta, Sarah ====== 25584 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:44pm Subject: Re: Back again! --- Dear Rob, Welcome back! I met a young Malaysian woman , Miss Wee, during here first trip to the foundation and it turned out she has attended one of your classes. It's a small world but it is natural that those of similar interests and acumulations come togther. It will be so in future lives too. RobertK p.s. back in Japan yesterday, and now enjoying a warm autumm time here. dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Friends, > > Sorry for the long absence. Please advise if I owe anybody any > replies. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25585 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG, I appreciate your further comments and feedback. I’m not sure if there’s any difference (other than terminology) in what we’re saying or not. Perhaps you could kindly tell me if you disagree with any of these points before we go on, to clarify: 1. ‘People’ is a conventional term, a pa~n~natti referring to the 5 aggregates. 2. Khandhas repesented by conventional terms such as people and animals arise and pass away, but the conventional terms are mere designations. 3. Namas and rupas can be directly experienced and known by pa~n~na (wisdom) and associated mental factors. 4. There are no ‘events’ - mere elements or phenomena arising and passing away. (I’m checking because perhaps I mistakenly took ‘unfolding causal occurrences’ to refer to something more than the latter - apologies if this was wrong). 5. Namas and rupas are ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate realities/actualities). 6. They are such because they have lakkha.na (characteristics) and sabhaava (intrinsic quality/particular nature) which can be known. For example, seeing has a characteristic quite different from hearing and quite different from the object seen. 7. These ‘actualities’ are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta. 8. Wrong views are an impediment. Right views are the forerunner of the other path factors. 9. Arahants have no more kilesa (defilements) of any kind. Sotapannas have eradicated all erroneous self and other views. 10. Finally, I forget if you have CMA (or other AbhidamatthaSangaha transl) or Vism. If so, do you accept a) CMA ch V111, Compendium of Conditionality, 30 Concept as what is made known “...such terms as ‘person’, ‘individual’, and the like, so named [concepts] on account of the five aggregates..................... All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. They are called concepts because they are thought of, reckoned, understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called because it is made known.” b) Vism V111,39 “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; The highest sense this concept will allow” (Nd 1, 42). See detailed footnote 11 (Nanamoli transl) which details all the kinds of concepts. ***** TG, again, I greatly appreciate your well-considered comments. Pls let me know if I have over-looked any points (I’m in a bit of a rush) and which of the comments above you disagree with (if any;-)). With metta, Sarah ===== --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > "Personality view" has to do with whether there is a view that there is > a > self, soul, controler, agent, entity, etc., that persists apart from > mere > conditions. Since such a condition does not exist, personality-view is > an incorrect > view. However, as you point out next, nama and rupas do exist...and > yes...people are made up of nama and rupas. Therefore...people exist > based on that. > People = The 5 Aggregates, and the 12 Fold Chain indicates the > systematic > dynamics that power them. I don't think that personality-view, > self-view, > identity-view, or whatever term suits you, has anything to do with > whether or not > people exist. > > The conditions that generate what we call a person do occur. People and > > animals and plants actually do arise. There is just no self that arises > along > with those conditions. [....] 25586 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:31am Subject: Mantras Dear Group, What is the purpose of mantras? Is there any place for mantras within Theravada Buddhism? I have a zip file of a group chanting/singing "Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa" and "namo sakyamuni buddha" in a most melodic and calming manner. Lots of lobha I suppose ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25587 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: Mantras Hi Christine, I was recently asked why we chanted in Pali rather than English (a reference was made to the Catholic Church changing from Latin to English for mass). I answered that, based on my strong attraction to the Dhamma (and Abhidhamma), I am convinced that I was a Buddhist in a previous existence. Christine, I suspect that you were as well. I have no idea what my nationality or my mother tongue was in my previous existence, but I believe that I chanted in Pali. When I chant in Pali in this existence, it creates a link to past experiences and causes feelings of love of the Dhamma to arise in me. These feelings of love of the Dhamma are conditioned by past- life experiences. I recently met some Vajarana (Tibetian) Buddhists who explained to me that a mantra has some sort of power and that a single phrase can summarize the Buddha's teaching into a "concentrated" form. I am not very comfortable with this concept. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > What is the purpose of mantras? Is there any place for mantras > within Theravada Buddhism? I have a zip file of a group > chanting/singing "Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa" > and "namo sakyamuni buddha" in a most melodic and calming manner. > Lots of lobha I suppose ... 25588 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: Mantras Hi RobM, Glad you're back. :-) I found some Pali mantras/chants on this interesting site. (Lots of stuff for kids as well). http://buddhamind.info/leftside/index.htm click on 'activities' and then 'sound'.- then scroll down to 'mantras' I'm not sure about these repetitive chants (mantras). They seem to have a calming, pleasurable affect, but so did 'radiating metta to self' - which, I am told was an incorrect thing to do. I would think, from the little I know of accumulations and tendencies, that it is likely we have had some contact with the Dhamma and Pali previously. Not sure if that includes previous contact with each other and other likeminded beings. Is there anything about groups of beings meeting each other in more than one lifetime? (Other than Jataka Tales, I mean.) That would sound a little like 'group kamma' and I'm not sure that exists, does it? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I was recently asked why we chanted in Pali rather than English (a > reference was made to the Catholic Church changing from Latin to > English for mass). > > I answered that, based on my strong attraction to the Dhamma (and > Abhidhamma), I am convinced that I was a Buddhist in a previous > existence. Christine, I suspect that you were as well. > > I have no idea what my nationality or my mother tongue was in my > previous existence, but I believe that I chanted in Pali. When I > chant in Pali in this existence, it creates a link to past > experiences and causes feelings of love of the Dhamma to arise in > me. These feelings of love of the Dhamma are conditioned by past- > life experiences. > > I recently met some Vajarana (Tibetian) Buddhists who explained to > me that a mantra has some sort of power and that a single phrase can > summarize the Buddha's teaching into a "concentrated" form. I am not > very comfortable with this concept. > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25589 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry Samatha in the context of samatha bhavana, samatha-vipassana, the punna-kiriya-vatthu etc is always kusala. To my knowledge, it is only when samatha is used as a synonym for ekaggataa cetasika that it can refer to an akusala dhamma. In our thread, where we are talking only about samatha bhavana (the development of tranquility/serenity), samatha is always used in it's purely kusala sense, and we can ignore the other meaning (ekaggataa cetasika). Getting back to our thread then, we have agreed that developing samatha is different from developing concentration. Samatha is a reference to kusala of a very high level, while concentration is a reference to the development of factors that could be either kusala or akusala. If samatha is not the same as concentration, then what is it? Samatha is in fact kusala mental action (i.e., action that is completed through the mind-door) accompanied by panna. Are you happy with this as a working definition of samatha? Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > Hi Jon, > > I agree developing samatha is different from developing > concentration. > From my understanding of the conversation between you and Jim it > seems > that developing samatha isn't necessarily kusala either. If so, can > you give an example? What about taking a lot of naps? > > Larry 25590 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: Question about Citta Dear KKT, Your question is a bit strange. I answer on my own ( I mean before I read up Nina's post ). One is taking an object. Subject = one = Citta Object = an object = Citta The action of subject = is taking ( seeing or realizing or concentrating on ) Htoo Naing ------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), > > Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It > always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself > is one. > > Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one > who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. > > Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta > is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( > Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. > > Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 > altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be > 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > > > > KKT: Thanks for answering my question. > > I know that I've formulated > my question wrongly. > > Yes, << Citta cannot arise itself >> > as you stated. > > Citta as well as Cetasikas > arise by conditions. > > My question should be: > > Is there a Citta << without Cetasikas >> ? > (ie. Citta as subject and object of itself > and there is no other Cetasika) > > It seems that your answer is Yes, isn't it? > > If Yes then I'll have another question. > > > Thanks, > > > KKT > > > ============ > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" > wrote: > > > > Dear everyone, > > > > > > I have a question > > (please don't laugh at my ignorance :-)) > > > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > > > My question is: > > > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > > > > Another way to formulate my question: > > > > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > KKT 25591 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: Question about Citta Dear KKT, Very interesting question. Here again, I answer independent of Nina's answer. It is the place where Attavadha arises. If I say no space, you will ask what is the essence of arising and falling away. Isn't it all the same that the whole piece is one. You might think that Citta lives always and it departs from the body when the body no longer able to live and Citta achieves a next body and so Samsara is that. If you think like this this thinking is the wrong view called '' Sasata Ditthi '' or eternal life belief. If I say yes there is a space, you will ask what is that space and how can it be measured in terms of Nama. All you do at this moment is fancying. Practical matters will more benefit us. Htoo Naing ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" > wrote: > > > Dear Htoo Naing, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), > > Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It > always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself > is one. > > Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one > who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. > > Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta > is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( > Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. > > Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 > altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be > 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > > > > KKT: Thanks for answering my question. > > I know that I've formulated > my question wrongly. > > Yes, << Citta cannot arise itself >> > as you stated. > > Citta as well as Cetasikas > arise by conditions. > > My question should be: > > Is there a Citta << without Cetasikas >> ? > (ie. Citta as subject and object of itself > and there is no other Cetasika) > > It seems that your answer is Yes, isn't it? > > If Yes then I'll have another question. > > > > > KKT: Sorry, I missed > your last phrase: > > << there is no Citta that arises > without any Cetasika >> > > So your answer is NO, right? > > My next question is: > > What is the << in-between >> > of the falling-away of one Citta > and the arising of the next Citta? > > > Thanks. > > > KKT 25592 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi, Sarah, > I don't know if you have access to this in Pali and whether it > sheds any further light on this point. I use the materials available online at http://www.tipitaka.org where they have the text, the a.t.thakathaa and the .tiikaa. As you say, the Diighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa (DA in the PTS abbreviation system) is also called Suma"ngalavilaasinii. > As to whether Buddhaghosa's commentary is "correct", I think this > depends again on how one considers his work and whether it is > acceptable to `cherry-pick' or not;-) Well ... cherry-pick it if it's right, discard it if it's wrong! > If you have access to the .tika or have further comments, I'd be > glad to hear. I was hoping one of our Pali experts would help here. The .tiikaa suggests that in the expression micchaadhammo from the DN, micchaa means the reversal of the ordinary, and dhamma in this context means nature, or something like that. So, micchaadhammo would mean the reversal of nature, and hence would be a euphemism for (in the commentary's words) "lustful desire of men for men and women for women." Derek. 25593 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: Question again :nibbana Dear Nina, We have long not met since I posted ' Citta As A Leader ' ' Cetasikas As Helpers ' ' Rupa As A Ladder ' 'Nibbana As Absolute Peace ' and ' Pannatta As A Vehicle '. The problem was that I could not manage mails on DSG at that time. AT that particular time there were over 100 posts in a day. So I have stayed dorment since then with only occasional appearing. I like your explanation and quotes. Nibbana is Nama Dhamma. Citta is Nama Dhamma. Cetasika is Nama Dhamma. Rupa is Rupa Dhamma. Pannatti is not an ultimate reality. Citta arises. It passes away. It takes an object.And it can be taken as an object.It is Nama Dhamma. It is one of ultimate realities. Cetasikas arise. They pass away. They also take an object along with Citta. They can be taken as objects.They are Nama Dhamma. They are some of ultimate realities. Rupa arise. They pass away. They cannot take any object. But they can be taken as objects.They are Rupa Dhamma. They also are some of ultimate realities. Nibbana does not arise. Nor does it pass away. It cannot take any object. But it can be taken as an object. As you said it causes bending of Citta or Cetasika. So it is Nama Dhamma.It is one of ultimate realities. Panatti does not arise. It does not pass away. It cannot take any object. It is not an ultimate reality. But it can be taken as an object. Even though it can cause bending of Nama ( Citta and Cetasika ) it is not Nama Dhamma ( this may not fit with definition of Nama ). It is not Rupa Dhamma as well. But without Pannatti, everything is hard to be talked. So I posted '' Pannatta As A Vehicle'. Because it conveys about real Dhamma or ultimate realities. I will be looking forward to hearing your comments on my expression. With Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear L.C., > op 24-09-2003 15:08 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > > > Nibbana is defined as visankhara(unconditioned) nama in theravada > > tradition. > > > > Could you please let me know the reason in theravada tradition why > > nibbana is not only non-sankhara ,but also non-sankhara nama. > N: Nibbana is asankhata dhaatu, unconditioned element. It is not rupa: > aruupino: without materiality. This is said in the Dhammasangani: see > "Buddhist psychological Ethics". § 1092. > It is nama. But different from citta and cetasikas which are namas that > experience an object. > The Co, the Expositor, II, The Summary, Suttanta Couplets: the meanings of > nama are: name making, bending, causing to bend. The Pali namati means: to > bend. Nameti: to cause to bend. Citta and cetasikas bend to wards an object, > they experience an object. They also cause one another to bend toward an > object. > Nibbana does not bend toward an object, but it is the object of lokuttara > citta. Thus, it causes to bend. by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object.> > Nina. 25594 From: Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, sarah (and TG) - I'm"popping in" to take your test! ;-)) In a message dated 9/26/03 3:47:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi TG, > > I appreciate your further comments and feedback. I’m not sure if there’s > any difference (other than terminology) in what we’re saying or not. > > Perhaps you could kindly tell me if you disagree with any of these points > before we go on, to clarify: > > 1. ‘People’ is a conventional term, a pa~n~natti referring to the 5 > aggregates. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Almost. It's a conventional term corresponding to mind-constructed phenomena which seem to point to entities; they actually correspond to networks of phenomena interelated by a wide variety of relations, and which function cooperatively and harmoniously so as to give the impression of being entities. ------------------------------------------------- > > 2. Khandhas repesented by conventional terms such as people and animals > arise and pass away, but the conventional terms are mere designations. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. ---------------------------------------------------- > > 3. Namas and rupas can be directly experienced and known by pa~n~na > (wisdom) and associated mental factors. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. But so can concepts/thoughts (though not their alleged referents , the pa~n~natti), be directly experienced. The difference is that the concepts/thoughts are mental constructs, whereas the so-called paramattha dhammas are not mentally constructed - they are the raw materials the mind uses in its constructive (sankharic) activities. ------------------------------------------------------ > > 4. There are no ‘events’ - mere elements or phenomena arising and passing > away. (I’m checking because perhaps I mistakenly took ‘unfolding causal > occurrences’ to refer to something more than the latter - apologies if > this was wrong). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. Dhammas are exactly events and features of events. If a dhamma is not an event or a feature, then it is a "thing" - an entity, and this is where objective substantialism enters in! There are only occurrences and features of occurrences, all fleeting and conditioned. --------------------------------------------------------- > > 5. Namas and rupas are ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate > realities/actualities). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but "ultimate" only in that they are not mind-constructs; they are elementary as regards sankharic construction; they are the basic sankharic building blocks. But they are all empty of self. They are separated out by vi~n~nana from a namarupic flux; they have no true separate existence on their own, being merely fleeting events separated out *by our minds* from "the flow" for which we haven't got a really good name. (Could that be dhammata/tathata/nibbana-dhatu, the reality that is the experience of an arahant or buddha?) This is how I see the matter. (I know - I've "failed the test"! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > 6. They are such because they have lakkha.na (characteristics) and > sabhaava (intrinsic quality/particular nature) which can be known. > For example, seeing has a characteristic quite different from hearing and > quite different from the object seen. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: They have characteristics/features. But they don't have *intrinsic* nature! They are what they are - and they "are" at all - in dependence on other silmilarly empty phenomena, and,thus, their "natures" are *not* intrinsic. Also, mind-constructs, such as the keyboard-construct (a mental construct) that seems to point to keyboard entity has characteristcs as well, characteristics derived from the phenomena that served as its basis. (Uh, oh - heading for an F- grade!! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ > > 7. These ‘actualities’ are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and > anatta. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. These basic phenomena/events/conditions are indeed so. And 'anatta' includes not having intrinsic nature. ---------------------------------------------------- > > 8. Wrong views are an impediment. Right views are the forerunner of the > other path factors. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds good. ----------------------------------------------------- > > 9. Arahants have no more kilesa (defilements) of any kind. Sotapannas have > eradicated all erroneous self and other views. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So I have heard (by report). ------------------------------------------------------- > > 10. Finally, I forget if you have CMA (or other AbhidamatthaSangaha > transl) or Vism. If so, do you accept > > a) CMA ch V111, Compendium of Conditionality, 30 > > Concept as what is made known > “...such terms as ‘person’, ‘individual’, and the like, so named > [concepts] on account of the five aggregates..................... > All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, > become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) > things. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The terms and the corresponding ideas do. And the ideas are directly experienced as namas within the namarupic flux. -------------------------------------------------- > > They are called concepts because they are thought of, reckoned, > understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, > with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called > because it is made known.â€? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Concepts/vi~n~natti are means for communication, among sentient beings and within one's own thought processing. --------------------------------------------------- > > b) Vism V111,39 > > “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; > The highest sense this concept will allowâ€? (Nd 1, 42). > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm! I rather like that! :-) -------------------------------------------------- > > See detailed footnote 11 (Nanamoli transl) which details all the kinds of > concepts. > ***** > > TG, again, I greatly appreciate your well-considered comments. Pls let me > know if I have over-looked any points (I’m in a bit of a rush) and which > of the comments above you disagree with (if any;-)). > > With metta, > > Sarah > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25595 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Citta Dear Nina and KKT, Now I understand what KKT would like to ask. There is no one. A moment later a man appears suddenly. He knows himself. That is he sees himself. This is just to show as comparison but not exactly. At least you will have a clear idea on the question you asked. A Citta arises. Citta arises at that moment cannot take itself as an object. This is totally different from the above example. Let aside five sense-doors and senses. Let's take a journey to Dhamma- arammana. A Citta can knows Dhamma-arammana. In Dhamma-arammana, Citta is included. But The Citta at the start of this paragraph cannot be taken as Dhamma-arammana. If so, when that Citta ( the Citta at the beginning of the above paragraph ) can be taken as an object? Don't you think this is an interesting question? That Citta ( the Citta at the beginning of the fourth paragraph to above ) can be taken as an object again only after 11th or 12th moment after it appeared. This is just contemplation and Only The Buddha will see this Citta. No one will be able to see that Citta at the same time of its arising. Here is a series of Citta. It is a Manodvara Vithi Cittas. There arise a Dhamma-arammana. 1. Bhavangha Citta 2. Manodvara Avajjana Citta 3. 1st Javana Citta 4. 2nd Javana Citta 5. 3rd Javana Citta 6. 4th Javana Citta 7. 5th Javana Citta 8. 6th Javana Citta 9. 7th Javana Citta 10. 1st Tadaarammana Citta 11. 2nd Tadaarammana Citta 12. 1st Bhavangha Citta 13. Manodvara Avajjana Citta 14. Javana Citta ( starts to knows 3. 1st Javana Citta but 7th Javana Citta will well knows than the first. ) This is the shortest period possible to know arising Citta . With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear KKT, > op 24-09-2003 17:18 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...:> > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > N: Impossible. But the accompanying cetasikas are not its objects, they > assist citta to experience an object that presents itself, be it rupa or > nama. > 25596 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question about Citta Dear Nina, How nice that you explained to KKT with Paccaya. I will note that. Thanks for your effort in this thread. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear KKT, > op 24-09-2003 21:09 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > > > What is the << in-between >> > > of the falling-away of one Citta > > and the arising of the next Citta? > N: the citta that has fallen away is a condition for the next citta. This > condiiton is: anantara paccaya, contiguity condition. Anantara means: no > "antara", nothing in between. Antara means: in between. Only the dying citta > of the arahat is not succeeded by a next citta, no more rebirth. > Nina. 25597 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:54am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear LC, Please see inline text. Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Dear Htoo Nating > > Thanks for your constant attention with metta! > > > > We can imagine that 45 years ( 16425 days ) preaching and speaking > > were a lot. The main facts were carried over verbally. Literature > was > > started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. ---------------------------------------------------- LC : > Could you give me names of the literateture ?( LC ) ------------------------------------------------ Htoo : I mean Tipitaka. It is not a name but just a name ( :-) do not be confused ) ( Htoo ) ---------------------------- > > Why were they not included at the 3 th meeting ? ------------------------------------------------------------ There was not any letter or equivalent at that time. ( Htoo ) ------------------------------------------ > > > At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th > > Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If > > you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. > > I do want to go to Myanmar for retreat before long. If I have a > chance , I will go to see them too. > > I do not know if this question is appropriate or not, but Do you > know any reliable sayadaws who teach samatha before we go on to > vipassana bhavana ? > > > > I have read some words that stated '' the eighth sense ''. I was > > shocked to hear that. > > I can just imagine you were shocked (^^). > > >Anyway, if there is still in doubt about anything, please do not > hesitate. We all should try to our best. This > > is study area. So it is called '' Dhamma Study Group ''. Isn't it? > > Thanks a lot! > > > from LC 25598 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:56am Subject: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise The early morning sounds of birds chirping and roosters crowing are ripped asunder by the wafting, grinding cadence of a loudspeaker `call to prayer'. Its male tones are like a chant and a mutter that follows no discernable rhythm and reaches peaks of intensity that border on screeching. It is 4:30 am and this will be the first of five such blaring announcements echoing forth from mosque's loudspeakers throughout the city throughout the day, calling the faithful to prayer. When I first arrived to Cairo, I noticed these calls to prayer and thought to myself that I was thankful we didn't have them in the US. Then I stopped paying attention to them; then I noticed something else: no one else seemed to be paying much attention to them either. When there is a call to prayer in Cairo, people don't stop what they are doing to pray; life goes on in the streets like absolutely nothing has happened. I have to wonder, if people aren't really following the call to prayer, why continue with all of this noise pollution? I believe the people here have learned to tune it out as much as I have. The Moslems in American still practice their faith without a call to prayer. Why subject everyone, especially non-Moslems like myself, to a daily litany of religious overtures? Honestly, I can understand the purpose to call to prayer somewhat, but what I cannot understand here is the need for businesses to so blatantly demonstrate their piousness. Almost all of the grocery stores and some of the department stores, instead of playing relaxing music like they do in the US, play an extremely loud tape of the Koran being recited (in chanting/muttering style) everyday while shoppers do their shopping. These tapes are often so loud that conversations between shoppers can't be heard over the blaring volume; all sounds are swallowed up in its presence. Personally, I find it hard to concentrate on my shopping with this racket going on and I can hardly wait to get out of the store. Would God, or anyone, want his teachings to become such an annoyance to people? I know that, like everyone else, I am going to have to learn to tune it out. So, do all of these public reminders of religion make everyone more religious? Well, it didn't seem to work on those young men who robbed me the other day. The Prophet Mohammed wanted his followers to remain mindful of God and the teachings, so he devised these methods to remind everyone of God everyday. I wonder what it would be like if my religion, Buddhism, required such public reminders everyday and if the Pali Canon was blared in the grocery store every time I was there to shop for food. I sincerely think that over time it would begin to lose meaning for me. I think that over time the same thing is happening here. Piety and religious feeling can't be forced from the outside; it has to come from the inside. Everything else is just a bunch of noise. 25599 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: Mantras Hi, Christine, > What is the purpose of mantras? Is there any place for mantras > within Theravada Buddhism? Some of the Thai forest monks mentally repeat to themselves "buddho, buddho, buddho ..." at the beginning of their meditation. This is sometimes called parikamma bhaavanaa, or "preliminary meditation." Ajahn Mun himself taught this method. Derek. 25600 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear LC, > > Please see inline text.This is continuation of inline text reply... > > Htoo Naing > > --------------------- LC: > > I do not know if this question is appropriate or not, but Do you > > know any reliable sayadaws who teach samatha before we go on to > > vipassana bhavana ?( LC ) ---------------------------------------- Htoo : There are. But they stay inconspicuously.( Htoo ) --------------------------------------------- > > > I have read some words that stated '' the eighth sense ''. I was > > > shocked to hear that. > > > > I can just imagine you were shocked (^^). > > > > >Anyway, if there is still in doubt about anything, please do not > > hesitate. We all should try to our best. This > > > is study area. So it is called '' Dhamma Study Group ''. Isn't it? > > > > Thanks a lot! > > > > > > from LC 25601 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:39am Subject: questions about citta. Dear KKT, I try to answer. KKT wrote: You said that << It (ie. Citta) can be aware of another citta or cetasika that has just fallen away >> As I understand there is only one Citta at a time, right? N: Yes. KKT: How could this Citta (which cannot be aware of itself as an actual Citta) be aware of another Citta that has just FALLEN AWAY? N: Can you think of your dosa of yesterday, today, a second ago? You remember, and that is the function of sa~n~naa, a cetasika accompanying each citta. Since there is contiguity-condiiton, no overlap as you say, experiences and remembrances are accumulated from moment to moment. Another example. Seeing sees visible object and after the seeing, viusible object is experienced through the mind-door, and after that there may be many mind-door processes of cittas which think about what was seen. There are conditions for such cittas. Meanwhile, seeing and visible object have fallen away. But different processes follow upon each other extremely rapidly. Nobody can come in between, it has happened already! KKT:We have only one Citta of a time. Thus when one Citta is present, the previous Citta was already finished. There is no << overlap >> between them. Therefore how could the actual Citta be aware of something already finished. N: See above. KKT:I don't see the relation between two successive Cittas. So there is no << in-between >>, no << hole >>, no << gap >>, between two successive Cittas, right? Thus it is not << really incorrect >> to consider the flow of successive Cittas as a << continuous >> flux, is it? N: Yes, this is correct. That is why we all have different inclinations. Citta falls away, but there is a connection in the series of cittas that is our life. Different individuals, different characters. Questions of King Milinda:Book 2, ch 2: Nagasena then explains that we are not the same as the baby we were once, and that still, we developed from babyhood. KKT: What exists in the << deep >> sleep? Is there Cittas, Cetasikas in deep sleep? N: Yes, otherwise we could not stay alive. KKT: With << deep >> sleep I mean << dreamless >> sleep, an << unconscious >> state not very much different from coma. N: This is not an unconscious state, there are cittas called bhavangacittas or life-continuum. As mentioned before, they do not experience an object impinging on one of the six doors, but they have an object: the same as that of the rebirth-consciousness. They keep the continuity in our life. When we wake up all sorts of objects are experienced. Sound or hardness are more evident than citta, this seems to be a hidden reality. But we know that there must be citta when hardness or sound appear. We take all these objects for granted, and the experience of them for granted. Now, I find that we should deeply consider this, so that we can truly understand what citta is, not just by definition. KKT: What exactly is << thought >> in Abhidhamma? I mean << thought >> in the common sense that all of us have the same understanding and usage. N: Different people have different ideas about what thought is, we discussed it here. Some people believe that thought is the thinking activity, citta which thinks. Others believe that thought is the contents of the thinking, thus, the object of thinking. I am inclined to use it in that last named sense. Nina. 25602 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: < snip > Piety and religious feeling can't be forced from the outside; it has to come from the inside. Everything else is just a bunch of noise. KKT: Including the inner noise that is the story incessantly one talks to oneself :-)) Thank you, James, for your sharings. Best wishes, KKT 25603 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: six Councils, to Htoo and Suan. Dear Nina, The Fifth Counsil was performed in Mandalay. The supporter was Upasaka, King Min Don, who was the father of ultimate Myanmar King, King Si Baw in mid-centuary of 19th. The Fourth Council was held in Celon or Srilanka. Round about the 5th Council, Sangha decided it was needed to perform 5th Council. This is not for adding new. But for confirming pronunciation, placing words, grouping them and so on. Tipitaka-wise was not new. But on the slabs were Tipitaka written in Burmese letters in Pali language. The Sixth Council was held in Yangon, the capital of Union of Myanmar, in mid-centuary of 20th. At that time all Tipitaka had been translated into Burmese and all were printed. Today online are translation of the contents of Six Council. In the Six Council, Mahasi Sayadaw '' Bhaddanta Sobana '' acted as Pucchaka ( questioner ) like Venerable Kassapa in The Buddha's time. Mingun Sayadaw '' Bhaddanta Vicittasarabhivansa '' acted as answerer like Venerable Ananda. The supporter was Prime Minister U Nu of Union of Burma ( now, Union of Myanmar ). Sayadaws from different Theravadha countries attended and records are there in Yangon,at Kaba Aye Pagoda- Mahapaasana Cave. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo and Suan, > I do not know anything about the 5th -sixth council. Was something new > added? Were there conroversies? At the fourth: the teachings were put into > writing? > Nina. > op 24-09-2003 20:20 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Literature was > > started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. > > > > 5th meeting records are still there in Burma. In the last capital of > > Burmese kingdom called Mandalay ( in northern Burma ). In that city, > > to the northeast is a hill called Mandalay (so the city, which > > origionally was ' Ratanabon ' a compilation of jewel was changed to > > Mandalay ). > > > > At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th > > Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If > > you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. > > > > 6th meeting was done in Yangon, the capital of today Myanmar. There > > are books related to the 6th meeting. It is the purest source. 25604 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Citta Dear KKT, Let me answer your question. Dear Nina, forgive me that I answer in place of you. I hope you will also respond on your own.Please see my inline text reply. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear Nina, > > > Thanks for answering my questions. > > I have many more questions > and I want to proceed slowly > if you don't mind. > > You said that > << It (ie. Citta) can be aware of another citta > or cetasika that has just fallen away >> ------------------ KKT : > As I understand there is > only one Citta at a time, right? > > How could this Citta > (which cannot be aware > of itself as an actual Citta) > be aware of another Citta > that has just FALLEN AWAY?( KKT ) --------------------------- Htoo : See my recent posts today. 7 successive Javana Citta do have the same Arammana, that is the exact Arammana. In case of Manodvara Vithi, there are only 3 kinds of Vithi Citta. They are 1. Manodvara Avajjana Citta 2. Javana Citta 3. Tadaarammana Citta. That's all. Other are Bhavangha Citta. Bhavangha Cittas are resultant Cittas. So they will not know themselves. In this series, the first Citta that can know other Citta is Manodvara Avajjana Citta. As it is Avajjana Citta, it will not know itself. Javana Citta will know what Manodvara Avajjana Citta knows and Tadaarammana Cittas also know the same Arammana. As this Vithi is not Jhana or Phala Vithi, it is followed by Bhavangha Citta. So, the 1st Manodvara cannot know itself. Thus 1. Manodvara 2. 7 Javana 3. 2 Tadaarammana 5. 1 Bhavangha these 11 Cittas are minimal number of Cittas that the knowing process still cannot operate. If ( if ), the Bhavangha is instantaneously stop and Manodvara arises instantaneously, that arising Manodvara will know 12th Citta back including itself. This is the shortest period that Citta can know Citta. But most will be known after zillion of trillion of billion of Cittas have gone away. ( Htoo ) ---------------------------------- KKT : > We have only one Citta of a time. > Thus when one Citta is present, > the previous Citta was already finished. > There is no << overlap >> between them. > Therefore how could the actual Citta > be aware of something already finished.( KKT ) ---------------------------------- Htoo : See above. The earliest will be 12th Citta back. ( Htoo ) ------------------------------------ KKT: > I don't see the relation > between two successive Cittas. > > Thank you, Nina. > > > KKT -------------- Htoo : Nina has said it is '' Anantara Paccaya ''. In a dynasty when the time was in a kingdom, the death of the king immediately cause the Crown Prince to became a king, even though coronation was performed later.( Htoo ) > > =============== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > Dear KKT, > > op 24-09-2003 17:18 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...:> > > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > > > N: Impossible. But the accompanying cetasikas are not its objects, > they assist citta to experience an object that presents itself, be > it rupa or nama. > > > > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) > > > N: no. It does not have itself as object. It can be aware of another > citta or cetasika that has just fallen away. When rupa impinges on a > sense-door there are cittas in a process which experience that rupa > which has not fallen away. After that rupa is experienced in a mind- > door process when it has just fallen away. > > With citta as object, it is different, rupa lasts longer than citta, > it can be object during a whole sense-door process of different > cittas, all of which experoence that rupa. Citta falls away > immediately. > > Citta can experience another nama, citta or cetasika, in a mind-door > process. That citta or cetasika which is the object has just fallen > away. > > Your question is good, and I hope it is somewhat clearer now? > An example: you have dosa, aversion, and you know it. That dosa > falls away immediately, and another citta knows that there was dosa, > or it has aversion about the dosa, or it considers with > understanding that dosa is a conditioned reality. It is hard to > realize that cittas fall away so extremely fast, that there are > already other moments of citta which have as object the past dosa. > It just seems to be the same moment, but that is an illusion. People > are discouraged about akusala and believe that there cannot be > awareness of it. First there may be aversion, and then understanding > can be developed about aversion. That is another moment which is > kusala accompanied by panna. We should be grateful to the Buddha for > teaching so many details about dhammas. > Nina. 25605 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: questions about citta. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear KKT, > I try to answer. > KKT wrote: > You said that > << It (ie. Citta) can be aware of another citta > or cetasika that has just fallen away >> > As I understand there is > only one Citta at a time, right? > N: Yes. > KKT: How could this Citta > KKT: With << deep >> sleep > I mean << dreamless >> sleep, > an << unconscious >> state > not very much different from coma. -------------------------------------------------------------- > N: This is not an unconscious state, there are cittas called bhavangacittas -------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Htoo: Sleeping is not unconsciousness. Sleeping is a state of altered consciousness. In a state of unconsciousness, it is not sleeping. Unconsciousness will depend on the causes. But most of the time will be dominated by Bhavangha Citta. Sometimes Bhavangha Calana and then back to Bhavangha Citta. There may nbe a short series of Vithi Citta but the unscious will not be able to recall all these. With Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------------------------------------------------- > or life-continuum. As mentioned before, they do not experience an object > impinging on one of the six doors, but they have an object: the same as that > of the rebirth-consciousness. They keep the continuity in our life. > When we wake up all sorts of objects are experienced. Sound or hardness are > more evident than citta, this seems to be a hidden reality. But we know that > there must be citta when hardness or sound appear. We take all these objects > for granted, and the experience of them for granted. Now, I find that we > should deeply consider this, so that we can truly understand what citta is, > not just by definition. > KKT: What exactly is << thought >> in Abhidhamma? > I mean << thought >> in > the common sense that > all of us have the same > understanding and usage. > N: Different people have different ideas about what thought is, we discussed > it here. Some people believe that thought is the thinking activity, citta > which thinks. Others believe that thought is the contents of the thinking, > thus, the object of thinking. I am inclined to use it in that last named > sense. > Nina. 25606 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:08pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise Hello James, Thank you for your posts on Egypt - you sound as if you are experiencing a little culture shock. It would be interesting to write a list of what you find most dissatisfying (and satisfying) about Egypt, put it away in a sealed envelope, and open some time after you have left the country for good. Often, the things we find most irritating are the very things we yearn for years later - the essence and flavour of a country. I hope you are keeping a detailed diary, memory is such an unreliable tool. There are many dsg members who are ex-patriates living semi-permanently in countries they were not born in. (Sarah and Jon in HK, RobK in Japan, some Thai members in the USA, and RobM is living in a Muslim country (Malaysia) like you. I remember the loud speakers from a trip many years ago to Kuala Lumpur). I know that many of the people living in my area (up to 100 different ethnic groups lately) find many things about western culture make them feel miserable and unsettled in the first months. But eventually it becomes more like home. Have you had much of a chance to learn the history (ancient and modern)and some of the language (is there only one?) - which is what makes up a culture and a national identity? Can you tell us a little about the food? Is there a famous Egyptian recipe? and the children, I have been waiting to hear about the little ones in Egypt ... perhaps another post? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" 25607 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:28pm Subject: Re: questions about citta. Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear KKT, I try to answer. KKT wrote: You said that << It (ie. Citta) can be aware of another citta or cetasika that has just fallen away >> As I understand there is only one Citta at a time, right? N: Yes. KKT: How could this Citta (which cannot be aware of itself as an actual Citta) be aware of another Citta that has just FALLEN AWAY? N: Can you think of your dosa of yesterday, today, a second ago? You remember, and that is the function of sa~n~naa, a cetasika accompanying each citta. Since there is contiguity-condiiton, no overlap as you say, experiences and remembrances are accumulated from moment to moment. Another example. Seeing sees visible object and after the seeing, viusible object is experienced through the mind-door, and after that there may be many mind-door processes of cittas which think about what was seen. There are conditions for such cittas. Meanwhile, seeing and visible object have fallen away. But different processes follow upon each other extremely rapidly. Nobody can come in between, it has happened already! KKT:We have only one Citta of a time. Thus when one Citta is present, the previous Citta was already finished. There is no << overlap >> between them. Therefore how could the actual Citta be aware of something already finished. N: See above. KKT:I don't see the relation between two successive Cittas. So there is no << in-between >>, no << hole >>, no << gap >>, between two successive Cittas, right? Thus it is not << really incorrect >> to consider the flow of successive Cittas as a << continuous >> flux, is it? N: Yes, this is correct. That is why we all have different inclinations. Citta falls away, but there is a connection in the series of cittas that is our life. Different individuals, different characters. Questions of King Milinda:Book 2, ch 2: Nagasena then explains that we are not the same as the baby we were once, and that still, we developed from babyhood. KKT: What exists in the << deep >> sleep? Is there Cittas, Cetasikas in deep sleep? N: Yes, otherwise we could not stay alive. KKT: With << deep >> sleep I mean << dreamless >> sleep, an << unconscious >> state not very much different from coma. N: This is not an unconscious state, there are cittas called bhavangacittas or life-continuum. As mentioned before, they do not experience an object impinging on one of the six doors, but they have an object: the same as that of the rebirth-consciousness. They keep the continuity in our life. When we wake up all sorts of objects are experienced. Sound or hardness are more evident than citta, this seems to be a hidden reality. But we know that there must be citta when hardness or sound appear. We take all these objects for granted, and the experience of them for granted. Now, I find that we should deeply consider this, so that we can truly understand what citta is, not just by definition. KKT: What exactly is << thought >> in Abhidhamma? I mean << thought >> in the common sense that all of us have the same understanding and usage. N: Different people have different ideas about what thought is, we discussed it here. Some people believe that thought is the thinking activity, citta which thinks. Others believe that thought is the contents of the thinking, thus, the object of thinking. I am inclined to use it in that last named sense. Nina. KKT: Thank you, Nina. I learn alot from your answer. I try to sum up what we talked to see more clearly. (correct me if I'm wrong) From birth to death of one being, there is a << continuous >> flux of successive Cittas, one of a time. This flux is never interrupted because there is no gap, no hole between two Cittas and even in the seemingly unsconscious states like deepsleep or coma there are still Cittas as life-continuum. This flux of Cittas is taken wrongly for << soul >> or << self >> in other religions just because of its << continuous >> appearence. I have some more questions: __I still don't understand why an actual Citta can't be aware of itself? (Htoo Naing has answered this question and I will read carefully his answer) __Does it mean that it seems impossible for us to << live in the present >> because we can only be aware of the just fallen Citta and Cetasikas? __The notion of << pure mind >> in the sense of a Citta existing alone is impossible since Citta is always accompanied by other Cetasikas? __Same thing for the notion of << empty mind >> which is absurd since the << mind >> is never empty of Cittas and Cetasikas? __In this phrase of Anguttara I,VI This mind (ie. Citta), O monks, is luminous, but it is defiled ... etc. what is the meaning of << luminous >> ? Thank you very much, Nina. Best wishes, KKT 25608 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Citta Dear Htoo Naing, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear KKT, Let me answer your question. Dear Nina, forgive me that I answer in place of you. I hope you will also respond on your own.Please see my inline text reply. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing KKT: Thanks for taking time to answer to my many questions. I will read carefully your answers and if I have some more questions I will ask. Best wishes, KKT 25609 From: Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion In a message dated 9/26/2003 12:47:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi TG, > > I appreciate your further comments and feedback. I’m not sure if there’s > any difference (other than terminology) in what we’re saying or not. > Hi Sarah TG: Thank goodness Howard replied to you questions because he saved me a ton of time and did a much better job than I could have! I agree very closely with his responses but will add a couple of things and answer your questions on CMA and Visuddhimagga. (Yes, read them about 10 times each...due to poor comprehension skills.) Before starting, my impression is that we agree on some points but language makes it uncertain. On other points, I think there are subtle but important differences. But I suspect our overall "foundational outlook" (within the constraints of the Tripitaka) is very different. Note: I pasted most of Howard's comments after my own. For clarification -- Howard's comments are to Sarah's questions and not to my replies. > Perhaps you could kindly tell me if you disagree with any of these points > before we go on, to clarify: > > 1. ‘People’ is a conventional term, a pa~n~natti referring to the 5 > aggregates. > TG: As Howard replied plus... Concepts are the outgrowths of the minds attempt to turn distinguishable feelings-perceptions into entities. An arahat has overcome that falacious aspect of mentality and is able to use concepts without the concepts having any deluding capabilities... as I understand it. All language is conventional. So if you are referring to the "word" people, the answer is yes, but it applies to all words. What the term "people" refers to is the 5 aggregates (whether one is aware of it or not.) Howard: Almost. It's a conventional term corresponding to mind-constructed phenomena which seem to point to entities; they actually correspond to networks of phenomena interelated by a wide variety of relations, and which function cooperatively and harmoniously so as to give the impression of being entities. > 2. Khandhas repesented by conventional terms such as people and animals > arise and pass away, but the conventional terms are mere designations. > TG: Khandas arise, persist while changing (in other words, there is inertia involved), then pass away. Khandas alter due to conditions, not to some "intrinsic impermanent/atering nature of their own." Conventional terms *as mental concepts* also arise and cease due to conditions. In other words, concepts are basically "imaginations"...and those imaginations are continuously altering due to conditions. > 3. Namas and rupas can be directly experienced and known by pa~n~na > (wisdom) and associated mental factors. > TG: Howard's answer is the way I see it as well. Howard: Okay. But so can concepts/thoughts (though not their alleged referents , the pa~n~natti), be directly experienced. The difference is that the concepts/thoughts are mental constructs, whereas the so-called paramattha dhammas are not mentally constructed - they are the raw materials the mind uses in its constructive (sankharic) activities. > 4. There are no ‘events’ - mere elements or phenomena arising and passing > away. (I’m checking because perhaps I mistakenly took ‘unfolding causal > occurrences’ to refer to something more than the latter - apologies if > this was wrong). > TG: Refer to Howard's answer. Howard: I disagree. Dhammas are exactly events and features of events. If a dhamma is not an event or a feature, then it is a "thing" - an entity, and this is where objective substantialism enters in! There are only occurrences and features of occurrences, all fleeting and conditioned. > 5. Namas and rupas are ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate > realities/actualities). > TG: I would be happier if they were labeled merely as -- "actualities." Not long ago, the best scientific thinking thought that -- matter and energy were separate things. Einstein showed that they were different modes of the "same stuff." I believe Nama and Rupa are also different modes of the same stuff/energies. They flow in and out of each other, construct and alter each other. (This view may be too radical even for Howard. LOL Although, I notice Howard is sometimes talking in terms of "namarupic flux" so maybe he's not so far apart.) Howard: Yes, but "ultimate" only in that they are not mind-constructs; they are elementary as regards sankharic construction; they are the basic sankharic building blocks. But they are all empty of self. They are separated out by vi~n~nana from a namarupic flux; they have no true separate existence on their own, being merely fleeting events separated out *by our minds* from "the flow" for which we haven't got a really good name. (Could that be dhammata/tathata/nibbana-dhatu, the reality that is the experience of an arahant or buddha?) This is how I see the matter. (I know - I've "failed the test"! ;-)) > 6. They are such because they have lakkha.na (characteristics) and > sabhaava (intrinsic quality/particular nature) which can be known. > For example, seeing has a characteristic quite different from hearing and > quite different from the object seen. > TG: Seeing things as having an intrinsic nature is a major stumbling block IMO, and one of the largest defects in abhidhamma interpretation. I think it guarantees that the "holder" of that view will not overcome self/entity-view. Howard's comment is right-on. Howard: They have characteristics/features. But they don't have *intrinsic* nature! They are what they are - and they "are" at all - in dependence on other silmilarly empty phenomena, and,thus, their "natures" are *not* intrinsic. Also, mind-constructs, such as the keyboard-construct (a mental construct) that seems to point to keyboard entity has characteristcs as well, characteristics derived from the phenomena that served as its basis. (Uh, oh - heading for an F- grade!! ;-) > 7. These ‘actualities’ are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and > anatta. > TG: Perfect. And as Howard adds... Howard: Yep. These basic phenomena/events/conditions are indeed so. And 'anatta' includes not having intrinsic nature. > 8. Wrong views are an impediment. Right views are the forerunner of the > other path factors. > TG: Sounds good also. > 9. Arahants have no more kilesa (defilements) of any kind. Sotapannas have > eradicated all erroneous self and other views. > TG: As I understand it, A streamwinner has only eliminated the "belief in self." For example, he or she would no longer hold theories that support such a view. However, they still "see things" as self. That's why they still have conceit (a self view), and desire for being and ignorance; not to speak of greed and aversion. All of which are "self-view" indicators. They have seen conditionality clearly enough to have irrevocable knowledge that there is no self. But they have not eradicated the perceptual misinterpretation that lead them to seeing things as entities. This depends on whether one sees self view as a "belief-in-self" or as "sense-of-self." I believe a streamwinner has eradicated the belief-in-self but not the sense-of-self. > 10. Finally, I forget if you have CMA (or other AbhidamatthaSangaha > transl) or Vism. If so, do you accept > > a) CMA ch V111, Compendium of Conditionality, 30 > Concept as what is made known > > “...such terms as ‘person’, ‘individual’, and the like, so named > [concepts] on account of the five aggregates..................... > All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, > become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) > things. TG: I would say that the so called "ultimate things" are actually the "shadows of conditions" and that concepts are the shadows of shadows. Therefore, I believe the above statement is flawed due to its way of expressing nama and rupa as substantial. Howard: The terms and the corresponding ideas do. And the ideas are directly experienced as namas within the namarupic flux. > > They are called concepts because they are thought of, reckoned, > understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, > with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called > because it is made known.â€? > TG: That's reasonable enough, but not really a full accounting of causal factors so its left pretty vague. Howard: Yes. Concepts/vi~n~natti are means for communication, among sentient beings and within one's own thought processing. > b) Vism V111,39 > > “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; > The highest sense this concept will allowâ€? (Nd 1, 42). TG: I like the statement, but see it as being easily interpreted by folks to mean whatever they want it to mean. I suspect abhidhamma people are seeing it to mean that states fully arise and fully cease every moment. If "abhidhammists" are seeing it that way, they are likely to be projecting a self/entity-view onto states an a "fraction of a second by fraction of a second basis. For example: They may see things as "being real and then being gone, being real and then being gone, etc. To me, that's subtle self and annihilation views continuously at work. I see it as meaning that states are altering every moment and never have any self or substantiality in any way whatsoever. My interpretation of it is not just based on it, but is combined with the rest of the Visuddhimagga and Tripitaka as well. Howard: Hmm! I rather like that! :-) > > See detailed footnote 11 (Nanamoli transl) which details all the kinds of > concepts. > ***** > > TG, again, I greatly appreciate your well-considered comments. Pls let me > know if I have over-looked any points (I’m in a bit of a rush) and which > of the comments above you disagree with (if any;-)). > > With metta, > > Sarah > Thanks for the questions Sarah. Take care. TG 25610 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:48pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello James, > > Thank you for your posts on Egypt - you sound as if you are > experiencing a little culture shock. Hi Christine, Hmmmm...I am puzzled how you came to that conclusion from this post. That wasn't my point at all. I didn't mention a single thing about my culture shock. The point of that post is how over-exposure to religious messages make them lose their effectiveness. How did you get me being culture shocked out of that? Is this your subjective analysis? Are you psychoanalyzing me for hidden meanings? Anyway, along those lines, you speak as someone with personal experience. Have you gone to live in a foreign country? Did you keep a diary there? Did you experience culture shock? How did you deal with it? How do you feel that my experience is similiar/different from your own? I look forward to your answers. Metta, James 25611 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:52pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > < snip > > > Piety and religious feeling > can't be forced from the outside; > it has to come from the inside. > Everything else is just a bunch of noise. > > > > > KKT: Including the inner noise > that is the story incessantly > one talks to oneself :-)) > > Thank you, James, for your sharings. > > Best wishes, > > KKT Hi KKT, Also very true. Glad you enjoy. Metta, James 25612 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise James, I was just interested and chatting - not meant to cause offense - no hidden meanings. I think I'll just leave it there. Be well. Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello James, > > > > Thank you for your posts on Egypt - you sound as if you are > > experiencing a little culture shock. > > Hi Christine, > > Hmmmm...I am puzzled how you came to that conclusion from this post. > That wasn't my point at all. I didn't mention a single thing about > my culture shock. The point of that post is how over-exposure to > religious messages make them lose their effectiveness. How did you > get me being culture shocked out of that? Is this your subjective > analysis? Are you psychoanalyzing me for hidden meanings? > > Anyway, along those lines, you speak as someone with personal > experience. Have you gone to live in a foreign country? Did you > keep a diary there? Did you experience culture shock? How did you > deal with it? How do you feel that my experience is > similiar/different from your own? I look forward to your answers. > > Metta, James 25613 From: Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, TG (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/26/03 4:40:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Sarah > > TG: Thank goodness Howard replied to you questions because he saved me a > ton > of time and did a much better job than I could have! ============================ TG, I'm glad you liked my reply, but I apologize for jumping in before you responded yourself. Sarah, I suggest that you quickly team up with Jon, and then we can have a tag-team wrestling match! ;-)) With WWF (World Wrestling Federation) metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25614 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:15pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > James, > > I was just interested and chatting - not meant to cause offense - no > hidden meanings. I think I'll just leave it there. > Be well. > > Christine Hi Christine, No offense taken...just wondering what messages I am putting out there unawares. Just chatting myself. About the children in Egypt, I am not quite sure what you would like to know. As far as I can tell, they are pretty much like kids everywhere...they like to run and play outside. The only difference is that they stay up really late here, like sometimes until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning playing in the streets. They are like all kids, cute as a button. I will try to take some pictures and send them to you. Egyptian food is rather boring; beans are the staple. They like to eat bread and beans and most meat recipes come from other countries. Metta, James 25615 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, > Jim > > Very interesting, and thanks very much. I obviously need to spend > some time looking into the Dhs and Atthasalini. My reading to date > has been almost exclusively confined to the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha > and Visuddhi-Magga (apart of course from the many quotes from the > texts themselves that Nina has included in her writings or that are > quoted on this list). I need to spend more time studying all these texts and many more too! > Just going back to your previous post, you point out that: > "The Expositor explains how all these extra dhammas [the aruupino > dhammas] (except citta) are reduced to the list of 52 [cetasikas]. > Samatha is included in the cetasika one-pointedness (ekaggataa)." > > That being so, then the 'samatha' in the excerpts you quote here from > Dhs is the universal (and ethically variable) cetasika more commonly > known as ekaggataa. > > As you will know, the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha also gives a similar > explanation regarding the factors that constitute the bala-s, > indriya-s, path factors (mentioned in your list of 6 below); indeed > the whole 37 bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma (requisites of enlightenment) are > said to be reducible to 13 cetasikas, and citta. In case you don't know, there is a chart on page 226-7 of Guide to Conditional Relations, Part I that shows the correspondence of the two classification systems of the mental factors for Dhs and Abhidhammatthasangaha. > My question however really related to the 'samatha' of samatha > bhavana as one finds discussed, for example, in the section of the > Abhidhammattha-Sangaha dealing with samatha and vipassana > (kamma.t.thaanasanganavibhaaga, samathasangaha). Of course I am > using the translations, CMA Ch IX and STA Ch 9, but it is clear that > the meaning here is not simply ekaggataa cetasika. Well, on p. 329 I'm reading Bodhi's note that says: "Technically, samatha is defined as the one-pointedness of mind (cittass'ekaggataa) in the eight meditative attainments--...". I find the restriction to the jhaanas to be somewhat misleading as one-pointedness of mind is found in every description of samatha in Dhs and also samatha is present in every state of mind. > To my understanding, all moments of samatha bhavana are > ~naa.nasampayutta.m (accompanied by wisdom), just as all moments of > vipassana bhavana are ~naa.nasampayutta.m. The difference lies in > the level of wisdom and the nature of the object of the wisdom. This may be true, but I wonder if it we could also include the 4 kusala cittas dissociated from knowledge in which samatha can be developed even though the cittas with knowledge is definitely on a higher level and hence much better still for samatha development. > Further, as I understand it, the 'Samaadhi' section of Vism deals > with samatha bhavana while the 'Panna' section deals with vipassana > bhavana. Sounds reasonable to me. > Is what I have just said consistent with the Abhidhamma texts as you > read them, Jim? Not quite and I have given my responses to your above remarks. I was then taken aback when I read your following remarks to Larry: "Developing samatha is different from developing concentration. There is no kusala involved in simply focussing on an object, even an object such as a kasina or the breath." The main disagreement I have with this is that I think that 'developing samatha' and 'developing concentration' are both the same. 'samatha' and 'samaadhi' are just different names for the same dhamma as I tried to show in my previous post. 'samaadhibhaavanaa' is a term that is much more commonly used and even occurs in the Tipitaka than 'samathabhaavanaa' which is rarely used and found mostly in Tikas. Whenever I see something like 'developing concentration' in the texts I automatically assume that it means developing *wholesome* concentration, one-pointedness, calm, call it what you may. I also believe that, even if the ratio of unwholesome cittas to the wholesome ones is 100 or more to 1 in the mind of an aspiring meditator, developing wholesome concentration will allow for the inevitability of the ratio to increase in favour of the kusala cittas at the expense of the akusala ones. Mind you, there will often be times when one or more of the five hindrances (niivara.nas) will intensify and get worse before things got better. Best wishes, Jim 25616 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG and Sarah, This is how I see it: The view "people are the five aggregates" is the personality view. In other words, with personality view, one views viewing oneself and others as the five aggregates. But like you said, personality view has nothing to do with whether people exist or not. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah [snip] > > "Personality view" has to do with whether there is a view that there is a > self, soul, controler, agent, entity, etc., that persists apart from mere > conditions. Since such a condition does not exist, personality- view is an incorrect > view. However, as you point out next, nama and rupas do exist...and > yes...people are made up of nama and rupas. Therefore...people exist based on that. > People = The 5 Aggregates, and the 12 Fold Chain indicates the systematic > dynamics that power them. I don't think that personality-view, self-view, > identity-view, or whatever term suits you, has anything to do with whether or not > people exist. [snip] 25617 From: orez277 Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:48am Subject: looking for 10 day course in the tradition of u ba khin looking for 10 day course in the tradition of u ba khin in souse india in febuary if u noww somesing ill b gratefull. my all b happy orez 25618 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: Mantras Hi Christine and all, If mantra is interpreted as reminder or recollection that helps allaying fear and agitation with a calming effect, then I would think that mantras do have its place in the Buddha's teaching. For instance, in the discourse Samyutta Nikaya XI.3 Dhajagga Sutta The Top of the Standard http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn11-003.html the Buddha taught the monks: "But, monks, I tell you this: If, when you have gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, there should arise fear, terror, or horripilation, then on that occasion you should recollect me thus: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, knower of the cosmos, unexcelled trainer of those who can be tamed, teacher of devas and human beings, awakened, blessed.' For when you recollect me, monks, any fear, terror, or horripilation you may have will be abandoned. I would think that chanting/singing can be helpful to some for recollection. And chanting/singing "Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa" can be seen as a form of recollecting the Buddha. I don't think there are greed or lust in you when you hear the chanting the "Namo tasa bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa" and experience calm. Greed or lust is agitating, not calming. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What is the purpose of mantras? Is there any place for mantras > within Theravada Buddhism? I have a zip file of a group > chanting/singing "Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa" > and "namo sakyamuni buddha" in a most melodic and calming manner. > Lots of lobha I suppose ... > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25619 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Erratum: "In other words, with personality view, one views viewing oneself and others as the five aggregates." should read "In other words, with personality view, one views oneself and others as the five aggregates." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi TG and Sarah, > > This is how I see it: > > The view "people are the five aggregates" is the personality view. > > In other words, with personality view, one views viewing oneself and > others as the five aggregates. > > But like you said, personality view has nothing to do with whether > people exist or not. > > Peace, > Victor 25620 From: Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "Samatha is in fact kusala mental action (i.e., action that is completed through the mind-door) accompanied by panna. Are you happy with this as a working definition of samatha?" Hi Jon, Not exactly happy but I guess it will do. As a definition it doesn't really say what "developing tranquility" entails except to say that panna has something to do with it, who knows what? Are we talking about skill (kosala) here or some other kind of panna? I'm not familiar with what is meant by "developing tranquility" other than as jhana. Could you give me a little sketch? Larry 25621 From: Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 19 "In the fourth triad, insight-understanding initiated by apprehending one's own aggregates is "interpreting the internal" (6). That initiated by apprehending another's aggregates or external materiality not bound up with the faculties, [that is, inanimate matter], is "interpreting the external". That initiated by apprehending both is "interpreting the internal and external". So it is of three kinds as interpreting the internal, and so on." Hi Nina, Is there any commentary on "external materiality not bound up with the faculties"? Larry 25622 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi Sarah, Back in the late 70s I clipped out a small article from a local newspaper that relates to "Girls will be 'marriageable at five years old'." I thought it may be of interest to you and others and have reproduced it below. > In my other post I continued to quote about how a time will come when > there is a life-span of only ten years. Girls will be 'marriageable at > five years old'. Food delicacies will disappear and the 10 kusala > kamma-patha will disappear completely with the 10 akusala kamma-patha very > prevalent. There will be no word for 'moral '(kusala). Those who show no > respect for parents, ascetics and so on will 'enjoy honour and prestige' > (just as in King Pasenadi's dream in the Jataka Tales). "All will be > promiscuous in the world like goats and sheep, fowl and pigs, dogs and > jackals." There will be fierce enmity, hatred, killing. Eventually there > will be a 'turn around' after the seven day 'sword interval'. People will > realise that the addiction to evil ways has led to terrible results and > they start to abstain from taking life and so on. Life spans start to > increase again. Only when they return to eighty thousand years will the > next Buddha, Metteyya appear. AGE OF PUBERTY DROPS 4 MONTHS EVERY 10 YEARS OTTAWA (CP) -- Teenagers are maturing physically earlier and are being pushed into sexual relationships, says a university child psychiatry professor. The age of puberty, when a youth is capable of sexual reproduction, has been gradually decreasing, says Dr. Brian McConnville of Queen's University. Estimates show the average of puberty drops about four months every 10 years. It's 12.5 at present, down from 16.5 in 1860, he says. Moreover, girls begin puberty earlier than boys, Dr. McConnville says. And they begin to develop sexually and start menstruating at 10 years old and earlier. "There have been various theories to explain this, including better overall nutrition." Best wishes, Jim 25623 From: Andrew Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:48pm Subject: More rules, less wisdom? Dear DSG folk This issue came up quite independently of the recent Precepts thread, although I suppose it is partially related. I was reading the Bhaddali Sutta. Bhaddali, it seems, was a bhikkhu who wasn't prepared to follow all the rules. He noted that, in the beginning, the Sangha had few training rules and many Arahants. This had evolved into a situation where there were lots of training rules and not so many Arahants. He asked the Buddha why. Buddha replied: "That is how it is, Bhaddali. When beings are deteriorating and the true Dhamma is disappearing, then there are more training rules and fewer bhikkhus become established in final knowledge ..." To me, Buddha's answer suggests that the Sangha is like everything else - it arises and will pass away. Am I correct in reading the Buddha as saying that an increase in rules/law is a sign of deterioration and accompanied by a waning of wisdom? Is there a message there for western society which has seen a huge increase in the amount of law since World War 2? Or is that going too far? And if so, why? BTW there is a thread in western ethics which considers rules/laws to be impediments to the exercise and development of ethical judgment-making ability. Is the Buddha giving credence to that thread? Sorry to be asking questions all the time instead of providing useful explanations, but I would love to hear some more well-read views on this issue. With metta Andrew 25624 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:01pm Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear Htoo Naing > > > We can imagine that 45 years ( 16425 days ) preaching and speaking > > > were a lot. The main facts were carried over verbally. Literature was > > > started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Could you give me names of the literateture ?( LC ) > ------------------------------------------------ > I mean Tipitaka. It is not a name but just a name ( :-) do not be > confused ) ( Htoo ) > ---------------------------- > > > > Why were they not included at the 3 th meeting ? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > There was not any letter or equivalent at that time. ( Htoo ) > ------------------------------------------ Thank you very much . I can understand! From LC 25625 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Re: More rules, less wisdom? --- Dear Andrew, In the case of the sangha the reason the Buddha gradually added more rules to the vinaya was because they were needed, they act as a protection . It is not that the rules decreased the wisdom but rather that as monks with less wisdom joined the sangha more rules became necessary. robertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSG folk > This issue came up quite independently of the recent Precepts thread, > although I suppose it is partially related. I was reading the > Bhaddali Sutta. Bhaddali, it seems, was a bhikkhu who wasn't > prepared to follow all the rules. He noted that, in the beginning, > the Sangha had few training rules and many Arahants. This had > evolved into a situation where there were lots of training rules and > not so many Arahants. He asked the Buddha why. > Buddha replied: "That is how it is, Bhaddali. When beings are > deteriorating and the true Dhamma is disappearing, then there are > more training rules and fewer bhikkhus become established in final > knowledge ..." > To me, Buddha's answer suggests that the Sangha is like everything > else - it arises and will pass away. > Am I correct in reading the Buddha as saying that an increase in > rules/law is a sign of deterioration and accompanied by a waning of > wisdom? > Is there a message there for western society which has seen a huge > increase in the amount of law since World War 2? Or is that going > too far? And if so, why? BTW there is a thread in western ethics > which considers rules/laws to be impediments to the exercise and > development of ethical judgment-making ability. Is the Buddha giving > credence to that thread? > Sorry to be asking questions all the time instead of providing useful > explanations, but I would love to hear some more well-read views on > this issue. > With metta > Andrew 25626 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:26pm Subject: Re: More rules, less wisdom? Dear Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: Dear DSG folk This issue came up quite independently of the recent Precepts thread, although I suppose it is partially related. I was reading the Bhaddali Sutta. Bhaddali, it seems, was a bhikkhu who wasn't prepared to follow all the rules. He noted that, in the beginning, the Sangha had few training rules and many Arahants. This had evolved into a situation where there were lots of training rules and not so many Arahants. He asked the Buddha why. Buddha replied: "That is how it is, Bhaddali. When beings are deteriorating and the true Dhamma is disappearing, then there are more training rules and fewer bhikkhus become established in final knowledge ..." To me, Buddha's answer suggests that the Sangha is like everything else - it arises and will pass away. Am I correct in reading the Buddha as saying that an increase in rules/law is a sign of deterioration and accompanied by a waning of wisdom? < snip > KKT: I think the meaning is very simple. The Buddha wants to say that when there are many people who are apt to become Arahants then there is no need for many rules. But when there are few people apt to become Arahants then it needs more rules to enhance the quality of the trainings. The increase in rules/laws is a sign of the deterioration of the quality of people. It reminds me of some verses in the Tao Teh Ching of Lao Tzu: When the Great Tao was abandoned, There appeared humanity and justice. When intelligence and wit arose, There appeared great hypocrites. When the six relations lost their harmony, There appeared filial piety and paternal kindness. When darkness and disorder began to reign in a kingdom, There appeared the loyal ministers. Peace, KKT 25627 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:38pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise Hello James, Thanks for the offer - I'd like to see some photos of what you are doing in Egypt (maybe a couple would be suitable for the dsg album?), and hear some more of your impressions. metta Christine 25628 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:40pm Subject: Re: Mantras Hello Victor, I think this is a very good explanation. What you say makes sense to me, and I feel O.K. about the chants now. Thanks. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > If mantra is interpreted as reminder or recollection that helps > allaying fear and agitation with a calming effect, then I would > think that mantras do have its place in the Buddha's teaching. For > instance, in the discourse > > Samyutta Nikaya XI.3 > Dhajagga Sutta > The Top of the Standard > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn11-003.html > I would think that chanting/singing can be helpful to some for > recollection. And chanting/singing "Namo tassa bhagavato arahato > sammasambuddhassa" can be seen as a form of recollecting the Buddha. > > I don't think there are greed or lust in you when you hear the > chanting the "Namo tasa bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa" and > experience calm. Greed or lust is agitating, not calming. > > Peace, > Victor 25629 From: connie Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:43pm Subject: Re: Mantras Hi RobM and Christine, While it's something of a stretch to call it mantra, you can also download, by chapter, verse by verse Pali chanting/English reading of the Dhp from http://www.buddhist-book.com/dhammmapada.htm . I kinda wonder about the idea that the Teachings can be all condensed down into a few words, too, but it seems that it worked for Sariputta. The way I was told is that the word Japan encompasses all the land, history, people, etc of that country. So I guess it doesn't even have to be words, but even a rag would work if we looked at it right. OM... or is that "wax-on, wax-off"? connie 25630 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:35pm Subject: Re: looking for 10 day course in the tradition of u ba khin Hello Orez, Here is a link that may be of assistance: http://www.vri.dhamma.org/ In the first paragraph on Vipassana Meditation, click on "schedule" you will find a list of courses with dates for India. I hope you find what you want. May you be happy also. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "orez277" wrote: > looking for 10 day course in the tradition of u ba khin in souse india in febuary > if u noww somesing ill b gratefull. > my all b happy > orez 25631 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Samatha is in fact kusala mental action (i.e., action that is > completed through the mind-door) accompanied by panna. > Are you happy with this as a working definition of samatha?" > > Hi Jon, > > Not exactly happy but I guess it will do. As a definition it > doesn't > really say what "developing tranquility" entails except to say that > panna has something to do with it, who knows what? Are we talking > about skill (kosala) here or some other kind of panna? Your observations here are spot on. The definition does not say exactly what the distinguishing characteristic of samatha/tranquility is. (As it stands, in fact, the definition could apply equally to vipassana/insight). The key, as you have noted, is the panna. Yes, this is definitely ‘skill’. It is panna that: - sees danger in the attachment that follows the experiencing of objects through the sense-doors, and - is able to distinguish between kusala and (very subtle) akusala moments of consciousness. As you can see from this description, simply focussing attention on a subject of concentration (even one of ‘the 40’) could not amount to samatha, since no panna is necessary for that. Any disagreement here? Jon PS The second part of your post raises the question of the relationship between samatha bhaavanaa and jhaana. To my understanding, jhaana is the outcome of samatha bhaavanaa. That is to say, tranquillity developed appropriately and to a high degree results in jhaana. Jhaana cannot occur other than by the development of samatha bhaavanaa. There is a sort of parallel here between enlightenment and insight (on the one hand) and samatha and jhana (on the other). As you know, insight/wisdom/panna/mundane path consciousness developed to its highest degree it results in enlightenment/supramundane path consciousness, and this is preceded by ‘change of lineage’ citta as the transition/bridging-moment between the 2 planes of consciousness (mundane and supramundane). Likewise samatha/wholesome concentration appropriately developed to its highest degree results in the arising of ‘jhaana’ consciousness, and is similarly preceded by a moment of ‘change of lineage’ consciousness. > I'm not familiar with > what is meant by "developing tranquility" other than as jhana. > Could you give me a little sketch? 25632 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Jim, Quite interesting. 5 year old girls are marriageable? In which newspaper? In the last dynasty of Burmese kingdom there was a girl who became a queen at the age of 7. But the king did not consume until she was fully matured. This does not mean 7 year girls marriageable. This girl was given to the king as a present. But what is sure is age of puberty has been dropping. There were some girls who gave birth childs at 15, 14 and so on. These are just isolated phenomena. But there is a possibility that general trend will be dropping regarding sexuality of girls. Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Back in the late 70s I clipped out a small article from a local > newspaper that relates to "Girls will be 'marriageable at five years > old'." I thought it may be of interest to you and others and have > reproduced it below. > > > In my other post I continued to quote about how a time will come > when > > there is a life-span of only ten years. Girls will be 'marriageable > at > > five years old'. Food delicacies will disappear and the 10 kusala > > kamma-patha will disappear completely with the 10 akusala > kamma-patha very > > prevalent. There will be no word for 'moral '(kusala). Those who > show no > > respect for parents, ascetics and so on will 'enjoy honour and > prestige' > > (just as in King Pasenadi's dream in the Jataka Tales). "All will be > > promiscuous in the world like goats and sheep, fowl and pigs, dogs > and > > jackals." There will be fierce enmity, hatred, killing. Eventually > there > > will be a 'turn around' after the seven day 'sword interval'. People > will > > realise that the addiction to evil ways has led to terrible results > and > > they start to abstain from taking life and so on. Life spans start > to > > increase again. Only when they return to eighty thousand years will > the > > next Buddha, Metteyya appear. > > AGE OF PUBERTY DROPS 4 MONTHS EVERY 10 YEARS > OTTAWA (CP) -- Teenagers are maturing physically earlier and are > being pushed into sexual relationships, says a university child > psychiatry professor. > The age of puberty, when a youth is capable of sexual reproduction, > has been gradually decreasing, says Dr. Brian McConnville of Queen's > University. > Estimates show the average of puberty drops about four months every > 10 years. It's 12.5 at present, down from 16.5 in 1860, he says. > Moreover, girls begin puberty earlier than boys, Dr. McConnville > says. And they begin to develop sexually and start menstruating at 10 > years old and earlier. > "There have been various theories to explain this, including better > overall nutrition." > > Best wishes, > Jim 25633 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:15am Subject: to Sarah. Dear Sarah, Just to let you know that 'Conditions' has arrived - anumodana for this, I find this a very valuable book. I have tried to write to you offline, but it keeps returning to me. Maybe you have another email address for non dsg stuff? Because I need to discuss a non dsg item with you, could you pls send me [offline] an address that I can contact you on. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 25634 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Howard (& TG), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > TG, I'm glad you liked my reply, but I apologize for jumping in > before > you responded yourself. > Sarah, I suggest that you quickly team up with Jon, and then we > can > have a tag-team wrestling match! ;-)) > > With WWF (World Wrestling Federation) metta, ..... I think he’s got his own wrestling matches to keep him occupied.... Look f/w to getting back to you both after the weekend (teaching today and hopefully the beach tomorrow to build up some of those badly-needed muscles James once painted into my pic;-)). I’m glad TG and I are tempting you out of seclusion too.....(and no, I never give ‘F’ grades....but I’m not quite sure who is testing and marking here....) Metta, Sarah ===== 25635 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:19am Subject: Kamma in Egypt! Dear James, How lucky! You've visited the pyramids and the Egyptian Musuem! Talking about "lucky" you've mentioned it in your previous email. You've written "According to the Buddha that isn't the case at all." What do you mean? Do you mean that the Buddha do not believe in luck? And what is kamma? Why is it important to know about kamma? Please answer the questions, I'm desperate to know the answers. Metta, Sandy. P.S. What did you see in the Egyptian Musuem and in the pyramids? By the way I'm interested in history and I've read alot of things about history in pyramids! 25636 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:21am Subject: Some Questions James: I am Philip Chui. I want to ask you some questions about your trip to Eygpt and some questions about Buddhism. So, here are the questions below: 1.Why did you go to Eygpt? 2. Why did the landlord live in a cave? 3. What was the weather like? 4. Did you fnd your lost baggage? Here are some questions about or related to Buddhism. 1. Why did you believe in Buddhism? 2. Why is Buddhism unique? 3. Did the Buddha prove to you that he is real? 4. Why does the Buddha ask for so many fastings and so many limitations for food? 5. Would you go to hell if you don't believe in the Buddha? 6. Did the Buddha help you earn lots of money and become rich? Please answer them when you have time. Thanks if you do. Philip Chui 25637 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! Dear Sarah: Sarah:" I would say these Dhammas (the four great elements, sensitive phenomena, > etc as you listed last time) are `real' because they have characteristics > and can be directly known." ------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah, you and Nina are right at these point! When I begun my Abhidhamma studies, I followed an easy approach that could directly relate Rupa with Matter, and the "Real" Paramattha Dhammas with concrete beings: so, by consequence,one gets at the last end of such reasonings a clash of reality definitions! A process of development or a vocal intimation aren´t "concrete" things, but they are as real as a Cakku-Dhatu or a feeling of hardness. As posed by you and Nina, this question is more Epistemological ( the nature of our external world knowledge, as the Honourable Bertrand Russell could say!) than Ontological!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "Paramattha by definition means > ultimate or actual, I think. " ---------------------------------------------------------- Exact !!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" Logic??? No more mutton sceances??" ------------------------------------------------------------------- No more clogged stomach with meat, you see... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" I'm very tuned and very appreciative (even if I don't speak Icarish like > Connie;-)). Sounds like bootcamp's going very well with lots of good > paramattha reminders;-)" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah !!!! Sometimes I really miss Connie´s quotes and remarks ( And yours and Nina´s)... and at the occasions I ought to interact with the female group of our squad, I think about the good and oldie Mike Neese being onslaughted by that bunch of violent femmes...HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Mettaya , Ícaro ;-)) 25638 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Htoo, I'm afraid I didn't make it too clear in my post about the source of "Girls will be 'marriageable at five years old'.". It comes from the Cakkavatti Sutta in the Digha Nikaya and was spoken by the Buddha. Since it refers to a time when the average human life-span will be about ten years, I would think that the meaning of 'marriageable at five years old' would be the age when a girl is old enough to have a baby. This is different from the custom I've read about of very young girls being married in India. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, > > Quite interesting. 5 year old girls are marriageable? In which > newspaper? In the last dynasty of Burmese kingdom there was a girl > who became a queen at the age of 7. But the king did not consume > until she was fully matured. This does not mean 7 year girls > marriageable. This girl was given to the king as a present. But what > is sure is age of puberty has been dropping. There were some girls > who gave birth childs at 15, 14 and so on. These are just isolated > phenomena. But there is a possibility that general trend will be > dropping regarding sexuality of girls. > > Htoo Naing 25639 From: Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/27/03 7:17:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Sarah, I suggest that you quickly team up with Jon, and then we > >can > >have a tag-team wrestling match! ;-)) > > > >With WWF (World Wrestling Federation) metta, > ..... > I think he’s got his own wrestling matches to keep him occupied.... > -------------------------------------- Howard: Aww! :-( ------------------------------------- > > Look f/w to getting back to you both after the weekend (teaching today and > hopefully the beach tomorrow to build up some of those badly-needed > muscles James once painted into my pic;-)). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds great! ---------------------------------------- > > I’m glad TG and I are tempting you out of seclusion too.....(and no, I > never give ‘F’ grades....but I’m not quite sure who is testing and marking > here....) > ------------------------------------- Howard: I never intended the seclusion to be complete - just a pulling back from excess. :-) Actually, I've already become more regular in my meditation, which pleases me. -------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25640 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Derek, Long ago we discussed samalobha and visamalobho. Samalobha is "normal", ordinary lobha, you do not do harm to others. Lobha we have everyday, time and again. Visama lobha: extraordinary, not ordinary lobha, this is strong and you may harm others. Sama is even, ordinary. Visama is the opposite. Nina. op 26-09-2003 02:35 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@y...: > It occurred to me that in the text itself the three things said to > have increased are adhammaraago visamalobho micchaadhammo. Literally > these three mean something like "unrighteous lust, disagreeable > greed, and wrong dhamma [?]" 25641 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti As A Vehicle Dear Htoo, I like your clear summary, and also Pannatti As A Vehicle. Because pannatti can convey what is real, what is dhamma. We need it in order to understand dhamma. Yes, I missed you but understand that the amount of posts are too much at times. Maybe for the newcomers you could repeat what you explained before about cetasikas as helpers, etc? Nina. op 26-09-2003 18:21 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > But without Pannatti, everything is hard to be talked. So I posted '' > Pannatta As A Vehicle'. Because it conveys about real Dhamma or > ultimate realities. > > I will be looking forward to hearing your comments on my expression. 25642 From: Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "As you can see from this description, simply focussing attention on a subject of concentration (even one of 'the 40') could not amount to samatha, since no panna is necessary for that." Hi Jon, This seems fine to me. However, I'm not clear on what you mean by samatha bhavana. What I had in mind is "Sila" (discipline), the first book of Visuddhimagga. Or possibly cultivating the two samatha cetasikas: tranquility of the mental body (feeling, perception, mental formations), and tranquility of consciousness. Cultivating sila would have samatha as a factor but not necessarily a direct object. I'm not exactly sure how samatha is developed in samatha vipassana except possibly as something like "relax and look". But I agree developing any virtuous state requires discriminating wisdom. Larry 25643 From: Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 19 (6). The word "abhinivisati" with its noun "abhinivesa" means literally 'to dwell on', and so to adhere, or 'insist'. In the Tipi.taka it always appears in a bad sense and always appears in contexts with wrong view and clinging (see e.g. M.iii, 30-31, Nd. I, 436 and also Ps. quoted above at Ch. I, 140). However, in the Commentaries the word appears also in a good sense as at Ch. XIV, 130, Ch. XXI, 73 and 83f., and at MA.i,250 (cf. "saddha.m nivisati", M.ii,173). In this good sense it is synonymous with "right" interpretation of experience. All the bare experience of perception is interpreted by the mind either in the sense of permanence, pleasure, self, which is wrong because it is not confirmed by experience, or in the sense of impermanence, etc., which is right because it is confirmed by experience (see Ch. XIV, 130). There is no not interpreting experience, and it is a function of the mind that the interpretation adopted is 'dwelt upon', i.e. insisted upon. And so it is this insistence or interpretation in accordance with reality as confirmed by experience that is the "abhinivesa" of the Commentaries in the good sense. For these reasons the words "interpretation", "misinterpretation" and "insistence" have been chosen here as renderings. Hi Nina, Does "insistence" and "interpretation" refer to javana because javana citta is repeated 7 times in citta process? Also, I was wondering if root cittas only arise in javana? Larry 25644 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 0:04pm Subject: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER TWO ! O noble fellows on Dhamma Studies!!! My Military bootcamp doesn´t give me much spare time to post abundantly... so, I will boldly continue my Dhamma Diary at a breadline, but with all the magic of my style!!!!! ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER TWO ! "The FLEEEEEECE of a good soldier is a good uniform!" When a sincere and witted person attains the intention to follow the Noble Path, he or she must to get some requisites to go on worthly, without fall on the path´s stumblingblocks or the Kamma´s pitfalls. Lobha, Dosa and Moha wait for the bad tempered or ill- disciplined mind to clinch their claws on all of us! A soldier also, must to get a well-disciplined overview about his resources and the others. So, we will begin with the two main pillars of a well-routed journey on the Buddhistic Noble Path: First, the Majjhima-patipada 1) Mindfulness samma-sati 2) Wisdom samma-ditthi 3) Concentration samma-samadhi 4) Right Thinking samma-samkappa 5) Right Effort samma-vayama These factors are needed to walk the Middle Way, as a good and strong boot for a soldier! The attentive reader will perceive that these five factors are embedded "ab ovo" at the Original Noble Path - The Majjhimapatipada says to us to view the reality around us with awareness, but not to categorize into likes or dislikes. This is not neutral either (Abhyakatta issues are out of context anyway!), but with awareness. And the doughboys and violent grrrrrls that sleep around me at the barracks need out also other things besides a good pair of boots: they need a complete uniform: pants, socks, camouflaged T-shirts, jackets, head coverages, rubberband fixers for the pants´ low ends, and so on... and to keep all this clean, pure and functional. Stay Clean!!! The second pillar of our Dhamma Diary today is... Purity!!! The pure octad (sudda-atthaka)... since everything in this world of Dukkha is related one each other, why not combine these aspects at the best way, to get the best results ? Here we go, Cittajakalpa! First,the avinibhoga + sudda-atthaka group: avinibhoga + viññutti = kayaviññuttinavaka " + vagiviññatti + sadda = vaci-viññutti-dasaka (vocal intimation group) Second, the very interesting Kammaja-action produced group: 5 organs + 2 sexes + jivita + hadaya-vatthu = 9 After, the Cittaja group: 2 viññatti + sadda + 3 mutable qualities = 6, Utuja: avinibhoga + sadda = saddanavaka Aharaja sudda-attaka + lahuta-dvi (corrections are welcome here) Lahuta-di-ekadasaka lightness grouping of eleven Kaya-viññutti-lahuta-di-dvadasaka bodily communication lightness grouping of twelve vaci-viññutti-sadda-lahuta-di-teradasaka ( as I always say to you all, my Pali translation skills are very, very limited... the last expression tied a knot on my understanding! A " 130(?) subtile words for communication or vocal intimation" or something alike!!! corrections are welcome indeed...) Well, Dhamma Students, we can see here at the Theravada Buddhism, good and subtile words and body expression for communication are a kind of Purity of action, as the best knowed Kammaja group:all people want to attain the best Kamma-Phala and keep abroad the bad ones, or to keep mind still and clear at an easily way. The best way to manage this goal is... Purity! Stay Clean! Keeping your closet, bed, clothes and personal life clean and properly fitted will put you far from problems of every kind, making you a worthy recipient for a holy golden fleece or something you like! Wow! What a sermon! After all the fitness conditioning I am taking on I just want to sleep!!!!!! And you all, Dhamma fellows and students of these noble company that stay awake with your eyes widely open, don´t dare to fall at the Niraya´s depths of the infinite muddled boots, where all the failed warriors are waiting for you for an eternal fitness session!!! To escape these ill-fortunated fate, stay tuned for our next Dhamma Diary Chapter: "ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER THREE: The Noble truths and a tiresome, wearisome, irksome FLOCK of somniferous boys and grrrrls!!!!" Mettaya, Ícaro 25645 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Hi Jon, ------------- J: > Reading this article, I suspect that Chitt. and I have somewhat different ideas about the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. ------------- I think you have but not as much as would seem from the opening paragraphs. When the rest of the article is posted, you will see that you are more in tune. ----------------- J: > As regards the factor of Right Action, this is one of the 3 restraints and, like the other 2 restraints, it only arises as a path factor when there is an occasion for restraint from akusala of a particular kind (and when certain other conditions are present). ----------------- The fact that I don't rush out and kill people who are walking past my house doesn't mean I am performing an act of restraint (virati), does it? (Even if it's those brats who kick their football into my garden.) What if there are often snails on my driveway and so, rather than risk crushing them, I delay fetching the newspaper until there is enough sunlight to see where I am walking? Is that more like the real virati? --------------- J: > On the general question of 'sexual ethics', Chittapala says: "Throughout his dispensation Buddha frequently spoke about the dangers of sensual desire, how it can create suffering in this and other lives, and how it is a major obstruction to spiritual development." I think that when the Buddha spoke abut the dangers of sensual desire he was referring to desire of any degree for the objects of all the 5 senses, that is, our old friends visible-object, audible-object, etc., and not specifically to carnal desires/lust. Such desire *is* suffering. ------------- That's very interesting although I'm not sure I understand it. In what way is carnal desire suffering as opposed to the cause of suffering? ------------- J: > Finally, I would hesitate to agree with the idea that all sense-desire is regarded in the texts as an obstacle to spiritual development, since everyone starts from a position of having sense desires and other kilesas in abundance, and their eradication comes only when full enlightenment has been attained. It might be more helpful to consider sense desires as unwholesome tendencies that can be known for what they are, as and when they arise, by developed insight. ------------- I'm beginning to appreciate the importance of that point. Can we assume that dosa is, at least, less likely to become the object of satipatthana than is adosa? My guess is we can't assume anything of the sort. At the intellectual level, it could be argued we are more likely to see the error of our bad ways than the righteousness of our good ways. Perhaps the first signs of right understanding are most likely to be when we realise there is something amiss with our wrong understanding (miccha-ditthi). Or is that going too far? Kind regards, Ken H 25646 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:32pm Subject: Re: Mantras --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: < snip > I kinda wonder about the idea that the Teachings can be all condensed down into a few words, too, but it seems that it worked for Sariputta. KKT: If I have to condense the Teachings in one word, it should be << MIND >> But the Buddha had condensed his Teachings in one phrase. BUDDHISM IN ONE PHRASE There is a section in the Majjhima Nikaya where someone approached the Buddha and asked him whether he could summerize his teachings in one phrase and, if he could, what it would be. The Buddha replied that he could: "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya". << NOTHING WHATSOEVER SHOULD BE CLUNG TO >> Then the Buddha emphasized this point by saying that whoever had heard this core-phrase had heard all the Teachings, whoever put it into practice had practiced all the Teachings, and whoever had received the fruits of practicing this point had received all of the fruits of the Buddhist Teachings. From "Heart Wood From The Bo Tree" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu Peace, KKT 25647 From: Andrew Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: More rules, less wisdom? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > The increase in rules/laws is > a sign of the deterioration > of the quality of people. > Dear KKT and RobK Thanks for your replies and for pointing out the simplicity of the answer. As usual, I am trying to extrapolate wider than I should. I think I am safe in saying that, generally speaking, the valid need for more rules is a general indication of deterioration, but on the very big assumption that the rule-maker is wise. Buddha certainly satisfies that assumption. I also sense that, in Dhamma, it is preferable for an untaught worldling to follow a wisely given rule rather than blunder on with his or her own discretion in the name of "developing ethical judgement". I suppose it comes down to confidence in the Teachings. Metta Andrew 25648 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: More rules, less wisdom? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" > wrote: > > > The increase in rules/laws is > > a sign of the deterioration > > of the quality of people. > > > Dear KKT and RobK > Thanks for your replies and for pointing out the simplicity of the > answer. As usual, I am trying to extrapolate wider than I should. I > think I am safe in saying that, generally speaking, the valid need > for more rules is a general indication of deterioration, but on the > very big assumption that the rule-maker is wise. Buddha certainly > satisfies that assumption. > I also sense that, in Dhamma, it is preferable for an untaught > worldling to follow a wisely given rule rather than blunder on with > his or her own discretion in the name of "developing ethical > judgement". I suppose it comes down to confidence in the Teachings. > Metta > Andrew Dear Andrew, I think so. The rules of the Vinaya were laid down by the Buddha for the monks and anyone becoming a monk is obliged to accept those rules. They are under no obligation to be monks and if they don't accept them they can leave the monkhood. The monks life is very different from that of a lay-person. Robertk 25649 From: jonoabb Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim Thanks for pointing out the chart in 'Guide to Conditional Relations'. Very useful. I appreciate very much the references you include in your posts, a number of which I am still following up and hope to get back to you on separately. Jim: "Whenever I see something like 'developing concentration' in the texts I automatically assume that it means developing *wholesome* concentration, one-pointedness, calm, call it what you may." Jon: I agree with this, and also that in this sense the 2 terms (samatha and samaadhi) are used interchangeably in the texts. However, this of course does not mean that as a matter of fact the development of concentration can be regarded as the development of samatha, since not all concentration is kusala. As you know, both the cetasika ekaggataa and the other 'concentration factor' cetasikas that assist in making it possible for citta to take the same object repeatedly are a~n~nasamaana (ethically variable) cetasikas or, in the case of 1 of the latter, akusala. The significance of this, as I see it, is that concentration takes its moral flavour from the consciousness it accompanies. In other words, tt is a case of 'if the concentration accompanies a kusala citta then (and only then) it is kusala concentration', rather than 'if the concentration is kusala then the citta will be kusala too'. Hence my comment to Larry, which I now repeat in slightly modified form for better clarity (hopefully): "Simply focussing on an object, even an object such as a kasina or the breath, does not necessarily involve kusala of any kind." So we need to understand in what sense samatha/wholesome samaadhi as mentioned in the texts is kusala. It has to be on account of factors other than the concentration factors that are being developed (i.e., by reason of something other than concentration on a 'right' object). Jim: "I wonder if we could also include [as part of samatha] the 4 kusala cittas dissociated from knowledge in which samatha can be developed even though the cittas with knowledge is definitely on a higher level and hence much better still for samatha development." Jon: I don't know of any textual references directly on point, but I see a conceptual difficulty in this. As far as I know, there is no support in the texts for the idea that kusala that is dissociated-from-knowledge can, if developed, lead to kusala that is associated-with-knowledge. The development of any kind of kusala is largely dependent on the previously-accumulated tendency for the same kind of kusala (and indeed the same relationship pertains for akusala, this is a universally applicable aspect of the teachings, I believe) and also of course the presence of other necessary conditions that 'prompt' the arising of the kusala. Even in the case of insight development the consciousness at the beginning level must be associated-with-knowledge, no matter how weak and fragile the insight moment. It is only by the gradual accumulation of weaker moments of a particular form of kusala that stronger kusala/higher levels of the same kusala can be gained. As I see it, anyway. Corrections welcome. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" < jimanderson_on@y...> wrote: > Well, on p. 329 I'm reading Bodhi's note that says: "Technically, > samatha is defined as the one-pointedness of mind (cittass'ekaggataa) > in the eight meditative attainments--...". I find the restriction to > the jhaanas to be somewhat misleading as one-pointedness of mind is > found in every description of samatha in Dhs and also samatha is > present in every state of mind. > > > To my understanding, all moments of samatha bhavana are > > ~naa.nasampayutta.m (accompanied by wisdom), just as all moments of > > vipassana bhavana are ~naa.nasampayutta.m. The difference lies in > > the level of wisdom and the nature of the object of the wisdom. > > This may be true, but I wonder if it we could also include the 4 > kusala cittas dissociated from knowledge in which samatha can be > developed even though the cittas with knowledge is definitely on a > higher level and hence much better still for samatha development. ... > The main disagreement I have with this is that I think that > 'developing samatha' and 'developing concentration' are both the same. > 'samatha' and 'samaadhi' are just different names for the same dhamma > as I tried to show in my previous post. 'samaadhibhaavanaa' is a term > that is much more commonly used and even occurs in the Tipitaka than > 'samathabhaavanaa' which is rarely used and found mostly in Tikas. > Whenever I see something like 'developing concentration' in the texts > I automatically assume that it means developing *wholesome* > concentration, one-pointedness, calm, call it what you may. 25650 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 0:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear Group, A newsletter that may be relevant to the Precepts thread by Ajahn Brahmavamso: http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/publications/HTML/Attachment.html metta and peace, Christine, ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 25651 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Ken H Thanks for coming in on this thread. --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > The fact that I don't rush out and kill people who are > walking past my house doesn't mean I am performing an act > of restraint (virati), does it? (Even if it's those > brats who kick their football into my garden.) That's right. (I'm sure it comes close to virati though sometimes ;-)).) > What if there are often snails on my driveway and so, > rather than risk crushing them, I delay fetching the > newspaper until there is enough sunlight to see where I > am walking? Is that more like the real virati? That sounds to me like smart (i.e., 'useful') thinking conditioned by your resolution to observe the precepts or by your understanding of the value of avoiding committing wrong action. But I doubt that it would actually be restraint since there is nothing imminent enough to raise the possibility of akusala action. As a matter of interest, it is said that for the arahant there is never any restraint since there is never any inclination to undertake wrong action. So even where a 'situation' presents itself, still there is no virati. > In what way is carnal desire suffering as > opposed to the cause of suffering? It's true that the Buddha spoke about the akusala vipaka that results from committing akusala kamma, as CP refers to in his article, but reflecting along these lines can lead one to the conclusion that the 'antidote' is samatha/the jhaanas. I think the Buddha was at pains to point out continually the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) of all conditioned dhammas, and the need for them to be seen as such as the only way to end suffering forever. > I'm beginning to appreciate the importance of that point. > Can we assume that dosa is, at least, less likely to > become the object of satipatthana than is adosa? My > guess is we can't assume anything of the sort. Right. No rule. Any dhamma. It depends (among other things) on previous accumulated satipatthana as to which dhammas will be the object of satipatthana in this lifetime. > At the > intellectual level, it could be argued we are more likely > to see the error of our bad ways than the righteousness > of our good ways. Perhaps the first signs of right > understanding are most likely to be when we realise there > is something amiss with our wrong understanding > (miccha-ditthi). Or is that going too far? Again, there is no rule. But I think that recognising instances of wrong view for what they are as and when they arise is a very important part of the development of right view, even if that recognition occurs consciously only after the event (and so is not right understanding of the direct kind). In fact, whether we regard the teachings as expounding the gradual development of right view or the gradual elimination of wrong view seems to amount to much the same thing. Thanks for the interesting comments and observations. Jon 25652 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry You asked about my use of the term 'samatha bhaavanaa'. Let's start with samatha. Samatha is one of the kinds of kusala action. Kusala action is action that is accompanied by wholesome consciousness. Wholesome consciousness is consciousness that is rooted in at least 1 of the 3 wholesome roots, that is, the mental factors of alobha (non-attachment), adosa (non-aversion) or amoha (non-ignorance = wisdom/understanding/panna). Kusala can also be classified by the doorway through which the 'action' is completed, that is, body, speech or mind. Kusala can also be classified by the nature of the action, namely, as dana (generosity), sila (restraint, virtuous conduct) or bhaavanaa (mental development). Samatha is kusala that is rooted in adosa or panna*, is completed through the mind-door, is a form of mental development. To take a couple of obvious and easily understood examples: - Metta (loving kindness) - Reflection on the value of performing wholesome deeds (developing kusala) that is correct reflection but that falls short of the direct understanding of a presently arising dhamma Any problems with this description so far? Jon * Note: I think I'm right in not including alobha here, but I'm not 100% sure. Corrections welcome (here and elsewhere) as usual. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > This seems fine to me. However, I'm not clear on what you mean by > samatha bhavana. 25653 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > A newsletter that may be relevant to the Precepts thread by Ajahn > Brahmavamso: > http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/publications/HTML/Attachment.html ..... Would you kindly share your impressions on the article in this regard? I'd be very interested to hear these. Metta, Sarah ===== 25654 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim A hasty correction, and apology. Your comment below about samatha not being limited to cittas associated-with-knowledge is of course correct, metta being but one example (as I mentioned in my subsequent post to Larry). My answer was directed to samatha bhavana that leads to jhaana. Since all jhaana cittas are associated-with-knowledge, then the cittas by which that is developed must also be associated-with-knowledge, as I understand it. But that wasn't the context of your comment, I know. Sorry for the confusion. Jon --- jonoabb wrote: ... > Jim: "I wonder if we could also include [as part of samatha] the 4 > kusala cittas > dissociated from knowledge in which samatha can be developed even > though the cittas with knowledge is definitely on a higher level > and hence > much better still for samatha development." > > Jon: I don't know of any textual references directly on point, but > I see a > conceptual difficulty in this. As far as I know, there is no > support in the texts for > the idea that kusala that is dissociated-from-knowledge can, if > developed, > lead to kusala that is associated-with-knowledge. > > The development of any kind of kusala is largely dependent on the > previously-accumulated tendency for the same kind of kusala (and > indeed the > same relationship pertains for akusala, this is a universally > applicable aspect > of the teachings, I believe) and also of course the presence of > other > necessary conditions that 'prompt' the arising of the kusala. Even > in the case > of insight development the consciousness at the beginning level > must be > associated-with-knowledge, no matter how weak and fragile the > insight > moment. It is only by the gradual accumulation of weaker moments > of a > particular form of kusala that stronger kusala/higher levels of the > same kusala > can be gained. 25655 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:05am Subject: Re: Kamma in Egypt! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > > How lucky! You've visited the pyramids and the > Egyptian Musuem! Talking about "lucky" you've > mentioned it in your previous email. You've written > "According to the Buddha that isn't the case at all." > What do you mean? Do you mean that the Buddha do not > believe in luck? And what is kamma? Why is it > important to know about kamma? > > Please answer the questions, I'm desperate to know > the answers. > > Metta, > Sandy. > > P.S. What did you see in the Egyptian Musuem and in > the pyramids? By the way I'm interested in history and > I've read alot of things about history in pyramids! Hi Starkid Sandy! Well, it is nice to write to you again. I hope that you are well and studying hard. Yes, I am in the Land of the Pharaohs, Egypt, and I have visited the pyramids and the Egyptian Museum; and I plan to revisit them again when the weather cools a bit. I am not sure which letter you are referring to but I probably did write that. According to Buddhism, there isn't any such thing as luck. Whatever happens to a person is the result of actions that have occurred in the past, not because of any superstitious belief that actions can be influenced. So if you have a lucky rabbit's foot or a lucky pair of socks, forget it! You just have some furry feet… or is that stinky feet? hehehe. They don't have any magical powers. Kamma is important to know because it is important to know that your actions have consequences. If you want good things to happen to you, you have to do good things; if you do bad things, realize that bad things are going to happen to you. Kamma isn't magic or superstition, it is the way the universe operates…in all of its big ways and in its small ways. In the Egyptian Museum I got to see King Tut and his treasures; did you know that he was a boy king? I also got to see a lot of mummies and real, ancient hieroglyphics. At the pyramids I got to climb on the pyramids and see some camels around them. Next time I go I hope to go inside the pyramids and ride a camel around them; there is also a laser/light show I plan to see some evening when they light up the pyramids and tell the stories of the Pharaohs. Take care and study hard. Metta, James 25656 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:17am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 9-12 for comment The "Character" of the Abhidhamma Slide Contents ============== Philosophy - Defines reality, nature of the universe and nature of knowledge Science - Classifies and models Psychology - Focuses on personal experience Ethics - "Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind, that is the teaching of the Buddhas." Speaker Notes ============= Philosophy - The Abhidhamma defines the four ultimate realities; consciousness, mental factors, physical factors and Nibbana. The Abhidhamma defines the nature of the universe; impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-existence of self. The Abhidhamma looks at the nature of the mind and the controlling influences; greed, attachment and delusion. Science - The Abhidhamma lists classes and categories. We should avoid temptation to treat the Abhidhamma as an intellectual exercise (analysis paralysis). The Abhidhamma helps us to "see things as they truly are" in the present moment. Psychology - The Abhidhamma is really the science of the mind; in today's terms, this is called Psychology. The focus of the Abhidhamma is on personal experience. Ethics - The title of the first book of the Abhidhamma has been translated as "Buddhist Psychological Ethics". In the Cula- Malunkyovada Sutta, the Buddha was asked a number of theoretical questions; the Buddha refused to answer because the Buddha's teaching is practical in nature. The Buddha's teaching focuses on ethics. In this Sutta, the Buddha gives the analogy of a man pierced with a poison arrow who refuses to allow the surgeon to remove the arrow until he is told the name, height, caste, etc. of the archer who shot the arrow. The man would die before he could learn all of these things. The mission of science is to create a model for the universe. The mission of the Abhidhamma is to free us from suffering. 25657 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mantras Hi KKT, --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > KKT: If I have to condense > the Teachings in one word, > it should be << MIND >> ..... Could you elaborate on why? ..... > > But the Buddha had condensed > his Teachings in one phrase. > > > BUDDHISM IN ONE PHRASE > > There is a section in the Majjhima Nikaya > where someone approached the Buddha > and asked him whether he could summerize > his teachings in one phrase and, > if he could, what it would be. > The Buddha replied that he could: > > "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya". > > << NOTHING WHATSOEVER SHOULD BE CLUNG TO >> > > Then the Buddha emphasized this point by saying that > whoever had heard this core-phrase > had heard all the Teachings, > whoever put it into practice > had practiced all the Teachings, and > whoever had received the fruits of practicing this point > had received all of the fruits of the Buddhist Teachings. > > From "Heart Wood From The Bo Tree" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu .... Does he give a reference? Is there no mention of the tri-lakkana first? Metta, Sarah ====== 25658 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mantras Hello Sarah, KKT and all, It is probable that the Ven. Ajahn Buddhadasa was referring to this excerpt from the Cuulatanhaasankhaya Sutta Majjhima Nikaya 37 "The Shorter Discourse on the Destruction of Craving" when Sakka, ruler of gods, asked: "Venerable sir, how in brief is a bhikkhu liberated by the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate security from bondage, the ultimate holy life, the ultimate goal, one who is formost among gods and humans?" "Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither- painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands:"Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.' I think it comes from Verse 3 in this sutta. (See a couple of mentions in this verse 3 'Here ruler of the gods' ...etc. below "sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya' with the 'ati' ending.) 3. Idha devànaminda bhikkhuno sutaü hoti: sabbe dhammà nàlaü abhinivesàyàti. Eva¤ca taü devànaminda bhikkhuno sutaü hoti: sabbe dhammà nàlaü abhinivesàyàti, so sabbaü dhammaü abhijànàti. Sabbaü dhammaü abhi¤¤àya sabbaü dhammaü parijànàti. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/037-culatanhasankhaya-p.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi KKT, > > --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > > > KKT: If I have to condense > > the Teachings in one word, > > it should be << MIND >> > ..... > Could you elaborate on why? > ..... > > > > But the Buddha had condensed > > his Teachings in one phrase. > > > > > > BUDDHISM IN ONE PHRASE > > > > There is a section in the Majjhima Nikaya > > where someone approached the Buddha > > and asked him whether he could summerize > > his teachings in one phrase and, > > if he could, what it would be. > > The Buddha replied that he could: > > > > "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya". > > > > << NOTHING WHATSOEVER SHOULD BE CLUNG TO >> > > > > Then the Buddha emphasized this point by saying that > > whoever had heard this core-phrase > > had heard all the Teachings, > > whoever put it into practice > > had practiced all the Teachings, and > > whoever had received the fruits of practicing this point > > had received all of the fruits of the Buddhist Teachings. > > > > From "Heart Wood From The Bo Tree" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu > .... > Does he give a reference? Is there no mention of the tri-lakkana first? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 25659 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hello Sarah and all, After I wrote http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25396 the Precepts Thread turned almost immediately to discussing silabbata- paramasa - attachment to mere rules and ritual. I was surprised by the fact that some members seemed to find aiming at keeping all the five precepts obsessive, and warned that it may not be the path. I guess I had been expecting encouragement and agreement. In the event, that was forthcoming from only a couple (whom I thank) but the majority of the thread seemed to leap to negative conclusions about my understanding and aims. The part in Ajahn Brams's newsletter that I found interesting is this: "The Pali work in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided.Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation - these are not un-Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25660 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mantras Hi Christine & KKT, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, KKT and all, > > It is probable that the Ven. Ajahn Buddhadasa was referring to this > excerpt from the Cuulatanhaasankhaya Sutta Majjhima Nikaya 37 "The > Shorter Discourse on the Destruction of Craving" when Sakka, ruler of > gods, asked: > "Venerable sir, how in brief is a bhikkhu liberated by the > destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end, the > ultimate security from bondage, the ultimate holy life, the ultimate > goal, one who is formost among gods and humans?" > "Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth > adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering > to, he directly knows everything .... Yes, this sounds right. These are the same lines I was discussing recently with Andrew. Of course there has to be a very clear understanding of ‘everything’ (sabbe dhamma) that are not worth adhering to - ie 5 aggregates, 12 ayatanas, 18 elements (see MA note 396 in BB transl.) The note continues to summarise the commentary: “MA explains........He ‘directly knows’ them as impermanent, suffering, and not self, and ‘fully understands’ them by scrutinising them in the same way. ‘Contemplating impermanence,’ etc, is accomplished by the insight knowledges of rise and fall and of destruction and disappearance. ‘He does not cling’ to any formation by way of craving and views, does not become agitated because of craving, and personally attains Nibbana by the extinguishing of all defilements.” Thx for your help. May we all learn to appreciate the deep meaning like Sakka. Metta, Sarah ====== 25661 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mantras Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi KKT, > KKT: If I have to condense > the Teachings in one word, > it should be << MIND >> ..... Could you elaborate on why? ..... KKT: At first glance Buddhism should be seen as a path to ease and to cure human sufferings. There are bodily and mental sufferings. Bodily sufferings are unavoidable but mental sufferings are optional. To cure mental sufferings a profound knowledge of the real nature and the workings of human mind reveals necessary. This is why we study Abhidhamma here. The same thing for the Zen school of which the purpose is to find deep down in human mind its real nature they call Buddha-nature of which upon the finding could liberate man from his mental sufferings. In Zen Buddha-nature is equated with Nibbana. This is the reason why I choose the word Mind as my << one-word mantra >> :-)) As for the reference of the phrase, I think Christine has found it in the Majjhima 37. Peace, KKT 25662 From: Larry Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, Okay, I understand what you mean now: the category of developing tranquility includes developing loving kindness and any other wholesome state because tranquility arises in all wholesome states. Would you like to comment on Howard's point about the tranquility of a murderer? Larry 25663 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, > I hadn't forgotten our thread, but these are difficult topics for me and I > may be out of my depth... These are difficult topics for me too! I should mention that I will not be able to continue much longer with this and other threads and this message could very well be my last one on this topic as Wednesday is the day that I will break off from list discussions for a long while and I will also be leaving that day to spend two weeks in Orillia with my mother and relatives. > ..... > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > The kind of pa~n~naa that is being developed in Vism is > > insight-knowledge, but there are other kinds too such as sutamayaa > > pa~n~naa that seems to me to have a connection with a deep > > understanding of Pali or the Buddha's language. > .... > I'm not sure. When we read about the 3 kinds of understanding inc. > sutamayaapa~n~naa (understanding bsed on what is heard) in VismX1V, 14, I > understood them all to be referring to insight-knowledge and this being > the reason they are included here. Whilst I agree that of course there can > be other kinds of pa~n~naa, such as with samatha development, I would have > thought most/all(?) instances of sutamayaa pa~n~naa in suttas and > commentaries referred to satipatthana development (??). I've only had a > quick look so far at Nina's commentary notes on this and also Dispeller > 2066f and there's much I'm unclear on. Nina may be able to add more or > perhaps you can elaborate further for me. I think that insight-knowledge properly belongs to bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa. When we read about the four factors conducive to the growth of wisdom, I think it is reasonable to assume that listening to/reading the Buddha's teachings and reflecting on them (wise attention) belong to the sutamaya kind of understanding. > In an earlier post, Num summarised from the Patisambhidamagga: > ***** > "Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 > Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. > > 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: > knowledge) > Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana. > Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta > here refers to teaching of the Buddha. Knowledge attained by listening to > the teaching is sutamayan~ana. It can also refer associated dhamma of > listening for example phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening > is sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of knowledge > (n~ana). > > < penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow by a > skillful archer. Illumination of the object as its function, as it were a > lamp. Non-confusion as its manifestation, as it were a hunter gives > guidance to one who is getting in the forest. And samadhi as its proximate > cause.">> > ***** Thanks for Num's summary. One problem I have is: how does pa~n~naa apply to conventional realities (concepts) when the characteristic of pa~n~naa is given in Vism as the penetration of the intrinsic nature of dhammas as this definition indicates an application to ultimate realities only. I find the above alternative characteristic of 'unfaltering (khalita) penetration' interesting as it might apply to conventional realities. I'll have to look into this later. > Whilst I'm not sure that I agree that a deep knowledge of Pali necessarily > leads to any pa~n~naa, I have no doubt it is very useful. I have known > people, inc. K.Sujin herself, who do not have a deep knowledge of Pali but > a lot of insight, in my view, into the teachings. I have also known quite > a few Pali scholars with an apparent 'deep knowledge' of the language, but > also an ability, in my view, to miss the essence of the teachings, so I'm > somewhat wary of making this connection. Presumably you'd say that in the > latter cases there is not a deep knowledge of the language? I'd go so far as to say that the majority of Pali scholars (including myself) do not possess what I would call a 'deep knowledge of the language' although it may appear that way to non-scholars or outsiders. I think the deepest knowledge of the language would be found with Buddhas and Arahants. I appreciated Nina's comments regarding K. Sujin and Pali. > ..... > >I was also thinking of > > a comparison of the money-changer's knowledge of money with the > > expert's knowledge of Pali. I think I may have a very hard time trying > > to convince you, especially if you don't agree that the Pali language > > and the teachings presented in that language (concepts) can be a focus > > for pa~n~naa. > .... > Of course, if we read and comprehend the teachings in Pali or any > language, the concepts considered (about realities) can of course be a > condition for insight. If not, we wouldn't read or consider. Certainly, > too, I agree with you and Suan that inevitably much is lost in any > translation which can only ever be as good as the translator's > understanding of the text. I very much agree that a translation can only be as good as the translator's understanding of the text. You hit it right on! > But, I think you are saying something more and we may have to let it be;-) > ..... > > One of the five things in the explanation of 'attha' in the > > Discrimination of Meaning is the "meaning of what is spoken" > > (Dispeller, 1944). And similarly for 'dhamma' in the Discrimination of > > Law there is "what is spoken" (1945). Would you not consider these to > > be concepts? However, these only form part of the explanation of the > > two discriminations and I'm sure they would go well beyond concepts > > too. I think the translations 'meaning' and 'law' don't adequately > > give the full range of the applied meanings of 'attha' and 'dhamma' in > > these discriminations and should probably be best left untranslated. > .... > As I've said, I know very little about the discriminations and this will > come up soon in Vism with tika notes. But no, I understand them to only > refer to deep penetrative knowledge of realities - directly penetrating > 'what is spoken' - causes, meanings, conditions and so on. I'd better not > speculate further;-) Okay, maybe we should leave it at that. > > I think it's much better to study the teachings in the Buddha's own > > language. Recently, I've been thinking of translations as being > > counterfeits. They should never be taken as equivalents of the > > original. I never did put much faith in translations and I will > > probably never be a translator myself. It's a good thing that the Pali > > has been kept alive and well. Think of how much worse off we'd all be > > if there had been a dominant mindset that > > considered translations to be exact equivalents of the originals and > > the Pali had been discarded and obliterated many centuries ago. > ..... > I agree with all this, though perhaps I wouldn't use such a strong word as > 'counterfeit'. I think for Pali experts to share what they read is a > priceless gift and a very difficult task. I'm not suggesting you should be > a translator, Jim - I think developing one's 'own' understanding is always > the most important thing. I agree that the word 'counterfeit' is quite strong but I haven't been able to come up with a more appropriate word so far. I don't mean that translations are necessarily misleading. One advantage of reading a text in Pali is that you can make important connections with the Pali terms used which often gets lost in the translation except for the more obvious terms like concentration, wisdom, etc. Also, if you want to investigate a particular term you won't get very far with the limitations of the English one. > ..... > > > Could it mean foremost in terms of being the no 1. language (rather > > than > > > most common) as we read in the next para about how other languages > > change > > > but "only this Magadha tongue correctly called the perfect (brahma) > > usage, > > > the noble usage, does not change."??? And it then goes on to talk > > about > > > why the Buddha used this language relating to the above: > > > > I was thinking along those lines also. > .... > Interesting!! - would the Pali allow this? I'm not sure. I'd have to study up on it. The 4 discriminations is a subject that I have yet to take up in detail. > .... > > Yes, I've been reading about their solitary lifestyles. Like Reg, I > > also lived for the first ten years without electricity. I also have a > > lot of experience staying in small tents during my long periods of > > travel when I was much younger. > ..... > And now we have Azita thinking of cutting off all lines;-) Not sure how > you'll all exchange notes.... I decided against cutting off the phone line at this time. However, I will proceed with my plan to break off list discussions for a few months and hopefully during this time I'll be able to get down to serious business with some of my Pali study projects. > Also, appreciating your input on the 5th precept thread, Jim. Thanks for your 2 responses. I hope to respond to them shortly. Best wishes, Jim 25664 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 19 Dear Larry, I have been considering external rupa, and I remember how difficult to understand also external citta, etc. (of someone else) when we came accross it in the Mahasatipatthanasutta, you remember? This text is clearer to me: just rupa such as hardness of the table, rupa outside. The Co has nothing on this but has a very good comment on vipassana. I want to translate it, but will finish first 17 and 18, so that we understand better that panna is also skill in detriment, and how it knows a remedy when akusala arises. I cannot be quick, but I can always add the relevant text so that people do not lose the thread. It won't hurt to return to the former text. Nina. op 27-09-2003 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: .... That initiated > by apprehending another's aggregates or external materiality not bound > up with the faculties, [that is, inanimate matter], is "interpreting the > external". > > Is there any commentary on "external materiality not bound up with the > faculties"? 25665 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise Hi KKT, You give me a good reminder here!! We cling so much the stories we are thinking about, hold on to them, never stop. But it is only thinking, nothing else. Thank you, Nina. op 26-09-2003 20:42 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > KKT: Including the inner noise > that is the story incessantly > one talks to oneself :-)) 25666 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: six Councils, to Htoo and Suan. Dear Htoo, Thank you for the information. I read that there were controversies about the texts of the sixth council. I do not know details. Nina. op 26-09-2003 20:45 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Dear Nina, > > The Fifth Counsil was performed in Mandalay. The supporter was > Upasaka, King Min Don, who was the father of ultimate Myanmar King, > King Si Baw in mid-centuary of 19th. ...... 25667 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO ´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! Dear Icaro, I liked your diary very much. Looking forward to Ch Two. How do you manage to get at a computer? Is it allowed? I admire you that you keep up with Dhammasangani in the midst of harsh training and the eating of mutton. You do not forget paramattha dhammas, even when there is stomach trouble. Keep courage and good cheer, best wishes, Nina. op 27-09-2003 14:22 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: Sarah:" Logic??? No more mutton sceances??" > > No more clogged stomach with meat, you see... > 25668 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:35am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovadasutta, 14 B. Commentary Mahaaraahulovadasutta, 14 B. Relevant Sutta passage: Addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputto aayasmanta.m Raahula.m a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisinna.m palla'nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa. Disvaana aayasmanta.m Raahula.m aamantesi : aanaapaanasati.m Raahula bhaavana.m bhaavehi, aanaapaanasati Raahula bhaavitaa bahuliikataa mahapphalaa hoti mahaanisa.msaa ti. The venerable Sariputta saw the venerable Rahula seated at the foot of that tree, cross-legged and body upright with mindfulness established before him. Having seen the venerable Rahula, he addressed him: "Cultivate the development of mindfulness on in and out breathing, Rahula. The development of mindfulness on in and out breathing, Rahula, is of great fruit and profit." Commentary text 14 B: atha kasmaa aanaapaanassatiya.m niyojesi? nisajjaanucchavikattaa. Then, why did he exhort him to develop Mindfulness of Breathing? Because it is suitable for a sitting posture. thero kira ``etassa bhagavataa ruupakamma.t.thaana.m kathita''nti anaavajjitvaava It is said that the Thera had not observed that the Buddha had spoken about the meditation subject of materiality to Rahula. yenaakaarena aya.m acalo anobaddho hutvaa nisinno, He thought that for Rahula who was seated in that way, steadfast and immovable, idamassa etissaa nisajjaaya kamma.t.thaana.m anucchavikanti cintetvaa evamaaha. that subject of meditation in such sitting posture was suitable for him, and thus he spoke to him in that way. tattha aanaapaanassatinti assaasapassaase pariggahetvaa tattha catukkapa~ncakajjhaana.m nibbattetvaa As regards the word, aanaapaanasati, mindfulness of breathing, he explained: "After you have comprehended inbreathing and outbreathing, and with this subject attained the fourth or the fifth stage of jhana, vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa arahatta.m ga.nhaahiiti dasseti. and you have developed insight, you should reach arahatship." mahapphalaa hotiiti kiivamahapphalaa hoti? As to the words, it is of great fruit, how is it of great fruit? idha bhikkhu aanaapaanassati.m anuyutto Here, the monk who is intent on mindfulness of breathing, sabbaasave khepetvaa arahatta.m paapu.naati. eradicates all defilements and reaches arahatship. tathaa asakkonto mara.nakaale samasiisii hoti, If he cannot do this , there will be at the end of life the extinction of all defilements **. tathaa asakkonto devaloke nibbattitvaa If he cannot do this, he will be reborn in a deva plane, dhammakathikadevaputtassa dhamma.m sutvaa arahatta.m paapu.naati, and when he has heard Dhamma from a deity (son of a deva) who is a speaker of Dhamma, he will attain arahatship. tato viraddho anuppanne buddhuppaade paccekabodhi.m sacchikaroti, If this fails because the appearance of a Buddha has not taken place, he will realize the awakening of a solitary Buddha. ta.m asacchikaronto buddhaana.m sammukhiibhaave baahiyattheraadayo viya khippaabhi~n~no hoti, If he cannot realize this, he can, being in the presence of Buddhas, attain higher knowledge *** quickly, such as the Elder Baahiya and others. eva.m mahapphalaa. Thus it is of great fruit. mahaanisa.msaati tasseva vevacana.m. As to the expression ³mahaanisa.msaa², of great benefit, this is a synonym of ³mahapphalaa², of great fruit². ***** English: Then, why did he exhort him to develop Mindfulness of Breathing? Because it is suitable for a sitting posture. It is said that the Thera had not observed that the Buddha had spoken about the meditation subject of materiality to Rahula. He thought that for Rahula who was seated in that way, steadfast and immovable, that subject of meditation in such sitting posture was suitable for him, and thus he spoke to him in that way. As regards the word, aanaapaanasati, mindfulness of breathing, he explained: "After you have comprehended inbreathing and outbreathing, and with this subject attained the fourth or the fifth stage of jhana, and you have developed insight, you should reach arahatship." As to the words, it is of great fruit, how is it of great fruit? Here, the monk who is intent on mindfulness of breathing, eradicates all defilements and reaches arahatship. If he cannot do this , there will be at the end of life the extinction of all defilements **. If he cannot do this, he will be reborn in a deva plane, and when he has heard Dhamma from a deity (son of a deva) who is a speaker of Dhamma, he will attain arahatship. If this fails because the appearance of a Buddha has not taken place, he will realize the awakening of a solitary Buddha. If he cannot realize this, he can, being in the presence of Buddhas, attain higher knowledge *** quickly, such as the Elder Baahiya and others. Thus it is of great fruit. As to the expression ³mahaanisa.msaa², of great benefit, this is a synonym of ³mahapphalaa², of great fruit². ______ * There are more versions: the Burmese edition has: acalo anabandho. The PTS edition has: acalaasanabandho hutvaa, motionless, glued to his seat. ** samasiisi, who attains two ends simultaneously, who at the end of his life eradicates all defilements. *** The subcommentary glosses: ³the six higher knowledges². These include higher spiritual powers. The sixth one is the eradication of all defilements. ******** Nina. 25669 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:00pm Subject: Re: Some Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > James: > > I am Philip Chui. I want to ask you some questions > about your trip to Eygpt and some questions about > Buddhism. So, here are the questions below: Hi Philip, Good to hear from you again. I hope that you are being nice to your sister and teachers. Here are some answers to your questions: 1.Why did you go to Eygpt? Answer: I like to travel and I wanted the experience of living in another country. The Egypt opportunity came up and it seemed like a good opportunity at the time. Sometimes you have to go really far away so that you can have a fresh perspective on where you have been. 2. Why did the landlord live in a cave? Answer: He really didn't live in a cave; he lived underneath the apartment building. It is kind of like a cave because it has a dirt floor and only three walls. He lives there because he is very poor and his employer is blind to the inequality in the situation. Rather than giving him and his family an empty apartment, he makes him and his family live in the basement because they are of a lower social class. It is not a nice situation and I moved from that apartment building. 3. What was the weather like? Answer: It is hot and a little muggy. 4. Did you fnd your lost baggage? Answer: Yes, it was found at the French airport and sent on to me in Cairo. I got all of my stuff. Thanks for asking. Here are some questions about or related to Buddhism. 1. Why did you believe in Buddhism? Answer: It makes sense to me. I see the wisdom and the truth of the Four Noble Truths. 2. Why is Buddhism unique? Answer: I think I have answered this for you before. Buddhism is unique from all other religions because of its teaching of non-self. No other religion has this teaching. 3. Did the Buddha prove to you that he is real? Answer: Yes. His teachings prove to me that he is very real. 4. Why does the Buddha ask for so many fastings and so many limitations for food? Answer: Food is a significant part of our lives and the ways that we eat and think about food will affect our thoughts and outlook on life. In other words, if we eat like greedy pigs, we will more than likely start to think like greedy pigs. If we eat sensibly and mindfully, we will start to think in a sensible and mindful way. 5. Would you go to hell if you don't believe in the Buddha? Answer: Buddhists don't believe in an eternal Hell, like in Christian/Jewish ideology. But they do believe in hell-like existences. I am not sure if disbelief in the Buddha will result in a hell-rebirth or not. If that disbelief is accompanied by doing bad behavior and having disregard for other people, then it probably would land a person in hell. 6. Did the Buddha help you earn lots of money and become rich? Answer: Not really. I could probably be more rich if I wasn't a Buddhist. Morality isn't too lucrative nowadays...but much more fulfilling in other ways. Please answer them when you have time. Thanks if you do. Philip Chui Hope these answer your questions. Thank you for your nice letter and study hard in school. Metta, James 25670 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise Dear Nina and KKT, Ooooo! I so relate to this, sometimes it becomes so noisy inside that there is nothing else but the noise. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi KKT, > You give me a good reminder here!! We cling so much the stories we are > thinking about, hold on to them, never stop. But it is only thinking, > nothing else. Thank you, > Nina. > op 26-09-2003 20:42 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > > > KKT: Including the inner noise > > that is the story incessantly > > one talks to oneself :-)) 25671 From: Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 19 Hi Nina, Regarding interpreting another's aggregates or external materiality we so often think interpreting our own aggregates is the only important or knowable object but we can know other's aggregates and external materiality are impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self. We can know this by bodily and vocal intimation if not direct mind reading (which I think we are all capable of to a limited extent, especially if we know each other well). Larry 25672 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 0:01am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, I’d just like to wish you a good trip to Orillia and a useful and wise ‘cut-off’ time with your various endeavours. If you feel inclined to send us an e-postcard or diary entry, we’d be glad, but understand if you’d prefer to cut all contact. I’m glad you’re not cutting the line - one never knows what emergencies may crop up. I agree with all your comments about Pali in your last note to me and esp. those concerning the ‘deepest knowledge of the language’. Hence, the references to nirutti patisambhida, I think. also, I agree w/all yr comments about the limitations of translations and appreciate all your encouragement & help in this regard. Just one comment only and it can wait til your return for any possible further discussion: --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Thanks for Num's summary. One problem I have is: how does pa~n~naa > apply to conventional realities (concepts) when the characteristic of > pa~n~naa is given in Vism as the penetration of the intrinsic nature > of dhammas as this definition indicates an application to ultimate > realities only. .... Exactly (as I see it) - that is, when we’re talking about insight pa~n~naa, only ultimate realities can be known (i.e the objects). The teaching is about paramattha dhammas and the intrinsic nature of these - anicca, dukkha and anatta. ..... >I find the above alternative characteristic of > 'unfaltering (khalita) penetration' interesting as it might apply to > conventional realities. I'll have to look into this later. ..... I’ll look f/w (as will Larry, Nina & all I know) to any further comments you have on the Vism or other passages on your return, Jim. I’ve much appreciated our discussions and I’ve learnt quite a bit - even if it is to know more about how very little we really understand of the teachings and the mixed bunch of mental states which are apparent when we see a glimmer of this ignorance;-) With metta, Sarah p.s thx for the ‘70s n/p article which seemed to have been written to support the sutta lines discussed;-) ===== 25673 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG & Howard (& Toby), --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > TG: Thank goodness Howard replied to you questions because he saved me > a ton > of time and did a much better job than I could have! .... S: You also gave careful consideration to the points and ‘person’ quotes and very helpfully incorporated Howard’s comments into your response so I can reply to you both together;-) [...] TG: >Before starting, my impression is that we agree > on some > points but language makes it uncertain. On other points, I think there > are > subtle but important differences. But I suspect our overall > "foundational > outlook" (within the constraints of the Tripitaka) is very different. .... S: Gives plenty of scope for discussion;-) Hopefully ‘within the constraints of the Tripitaka’ includes the Abhidhamma?? Where you both agree with my points (I think about half) or with minor reservations, I’ll happily put aside for now. Actually I had thought there’d be more agreement, but as Christine found, there are no guarantees of this on DSG;-) ..... > > 2. > TG: Khandas arise, persist while changing (in other words, there is > inertia > involved), then pass away. Khandas alter due to conditions, not to some > > "intrinsic impermanent/atering nature of their own." .... S: Hmm - not sure about ‘inertia’ ( even if we refer to 4 phases of rupa or 3 phases of citta, I’m not sure about ‘inertia’??) Conditions are so complex. Impermanence is a characteristic of all paramattha dhammas - what arises, falls away. I think we could have a full discussion just on these two details. Perhaps you’d like to add more of your thoughts if so. ..... TG:>Conventional terms > *as mental > concepts* also arise and cease due to conditions. .... S: Back to the ‘constraints of the Tripitaka”, could you give a reference for this? .... TG: In other words, > concepts > are basically "imaginations"...and those imaginations are continuously > altering > due to conditions. ..... S: The cittas which think or imagine are altering as you say, but if there is no thinking, there are no ‘people’, ‘computers’ and so on. .... > Howard: > I disagree. Dhammas are exactly events and features of events. .... S: Reference please! ..... H: >If a > dhamma is not an event or a feature, then it is a "thing" - an entity, > and > this > is where objective substantialism enters in! There are only occurrences > and > features of occurrences, all fleeting and conditioned. .... S: I see you both like ‘occurrences’;-) I think I need to see a reference to discuss further. A dhamma is a dhatu (element), but has its own particular nature. .... > > 5. > TG: I would be happier if they were labeled merely as -- "actualities." > Not > long ago, the best scientific thinking thought that -- matter and energy > were > separate things. Einstein showed that they were different modes of the > "same > stuff." I believe Nama and Rupa are also different modes of the same > stuff/energies. They flow in and out of each other, construct and alter > each other. ... S: References please! I don’t think we should mix scientific ideas;-) .... TG: > (This view may be too radical even for Howard. LOL Although, I notice > > Howard is sometimes talking in terms of "namarupic flux" so maybe he's > not so far > apart.) .... S: ..and if you’re too radical for Howard.....!! (I think he blows a little hot and cold with the namarupic flux.....but I note he knows when he’s stepping out of the ‘Tripitaka constraints’;-)) .... > > 6. > TG: Seeing things as having an intrinsic nature is a major stumbling > block > IMO, and one of the largest defects in abhidhamma interpretation. I > think it > guarantees that the "holder" of that view will not overcome > self/entity-view. > Howard's comment is right-on. > > Howard: > They have characteristics/features. But they don't have *intrinsic* > nature! They are what they are - and they "are" at all - in dependence > on > other > silmilarly empty phenomena, and,thus, their "natures" are *not* > intrinsic. > Also, mind-constructs, such as the keyboard-construct (a mental > construct) > that > seems to point to keyboard entity has characteristcs as well, > characteristics > > derived from the phenomena that served as its basis. (Uh, oh - heading > for an > > F- grade!! ;-) .... S: Where to start? If we say that a characteristic of seeing consciousness is to experience visible object and that seeing is anicca and so on, why should these characteristics or distinct features as discussed throughout the Tipitaka (not just the Abhidhamma) be seen as stumbling blocks or lead to self-views? On the contrary, understanding the ‘nature’ or characteristics of various dhammas is essential to understanding anatta as I see it. If we talk about characteristics of concepts such as ‘keyboard’, it’s OK, but the meaning is different from the ‘fundamental’ or ‘inherent’ characteristics of paramattha dhammas. Have you got a reference which suggests concepts have lakkana (characteristics)? [If there’s one reference or sutta for all qus, that would be convenient.....] ... > > 9. > TG: As I understand it, A streamwinner has only eliminated the "belief > in > self." For example, he or she would no longer hold theories that > support such a > view. However, they still "see things" as self. That's why they still > have > conceit (a self view), and desire for being and ignorance; not to speak > of > greed and aversion. All of which are "self-view" indicators. ... S: I discussed this area recently with Toby. I’m not sure if we agree here or not. If Toby is reading this, I’d be grateful for his comments. ..... TG:>They have > seen > conditionality clearly enough to have irrevocable knowledge that there > is no > self. But they have not eradicated the perceptual misinterpretation > that lead > them to seeing things as entities. .... S: I disagree with this last point. No more ‘misinterpretation’ as I see it and no more erroneous ‘seeing things as entities’. Reference please! ..... TG: > This depends on whether one sees self view as a "belief-in-self" or as > "sense-of-self." I believe a streamwinner has eradicated the > belief-in-self but not > the sense-of-self. .... S: Perhaps you’d elaborate or give examples of ‘sense-of-self’? We may not have any disagreement here. ... > > 10. > TG: I would say that the so called "ultimate things" are actually the > "shadows of conditions" and that concepts are the shadows of shadows. .... S: You mean you’re correcting the Abhidamattha Sangaha? LOL -just kidding - I know it’s not accepted by everyone;-( I think this is back to whether one accepts the Abhidhamma as part of the Tipitaka as summarised in this text. do you have any reference where it is suggested that namas and rupas or paramattha dhammas or khandhas or dhatus are ‘shadows of conditions’? .... TG: > Therefore, I > believe the above statement is flawed due to its way of expressing nama > and > rupa as substantial. .... S: It is not just in the Abhidhamma, but also in the suttanta that we are urged to know namas and rupas/khandhas and so on. There has been a lot of discussion on this point such as in posts under ‘concepts and realities’ in UP. Also this link on ‘paramattha’ may be relevant. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/paramattha.htm .... > Howard: > The terms and the corresponding ideas do. And the ideas are directly > > experienced as namas within the namarupic flux. .... S: How can ideas be experienced as namas?? .... 10b) > TG: I like the statement, but see it as being easily interpreted by > folks to > mean whatever they want it to mean. I suspect abhidhamma people are > seeing > it to mean that states fully arise and fully cease every moment. If > "abhidhammists" are seeing it that way, they are likely to be projecting > a > self/entity-view onto states an a "fraction of a second by fraction of a > second basis. For > example: They may see things as "being real and then being gone, being > real > and then being gone, etc. To me, that's subtle self and annihilation > views > continuously at work .... S: I don’t think so, but I do understand the teachings throughout the Tipitaka to be referring to ‘actual’ phenomena which arise and pass away and thus ‘die’ immediately. I think there’s a (subtle) distinction. Commentary note to the passage I quoted from the Vism: ‘The words “just these alone” mean that it is unmixed with self (attaa) or permanence’ (Pm242). ‘ “When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead”: just as in the case of death-consciousness, this world is also called “dead” in the highest (ultimate) sense with the arrival of any consciousness whatever at its dissolution, since its cessation has no rebirth-linking (is “cessation never to return”). Nevertheless, though this is so, “the highest concept will allow (pa~n~natti paramathiyaa)” - the ultimate sense will allow this concept of continuity, which is what the expression of common usage “Tissa lives, Phussa lives” refers to, and which is based on consciousness (momentarily) existing along with a physical support; this belongs to the ultimate sense here, since, as they say, “It is not the name and surname that lives” (Pm. 242 and 801). ..... TG: > Thanks for the questions Sarah. Take care .... Thx for the detailed responses. I’ve had to snip some because of length. Look f/w to any further comments or Tipitaka references. As this has got rather long and unwieldy, you're welcome to break it up into different threads or just pick out anything of interest. Metta, Sarah ====== 25674 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Larry & KKT, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > KKT: "A pen or a computer is > conventional reality (concept) > but I can << grasp >> the pen > or touch the computer ..... S: what is <> or <> when you think it is a pen or computer? .... KKT: > while I am sure I never can > experience a Citta or Cetasika. ..... S: not <>, but sati and Panna can be aware and know anger, confusion, seeing, hearing, and so on now. .... KKT: > Why? > Because I read somewhere that > in a blinking of eye there are > more than one billion Cittas! > What do you think?" .... S: This is thinking. At the moment of awareness, there’s no <> .... L: >Sarah > might want to pitch in something here. She is the one to ask why a > concept is non-arising. ..... S: If there is no thinking about <> or <> then where is the<>? In other words, it is the thinking which arises according to conditions, not the concept of <> or <>. Metta, Sarah p.s Larry - I'll try to get back on a couple of other posts tomorrow. ====== 25675 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:56am Subject: Self-sacrifice Dear Group, Is self-sacrifice viewed positively in Theravada Buddhism? Does Buddhism have an equivalent to the Christian verse, "'Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."? I recall a couple of the Jatakas showing animals giving their lives voluntarily to help others - but what of the Suttas? I seem to vaguely recall a sutta where bandits wanted to pick one of a group to kill, and volunteering oneself to save the others wasn't seen as commendable. Buddhadatta's dictionary shows self-sacrifice (m.) attapariccaaga. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25676 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:13am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 16, 17, 18 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 16. 9. In the third triad, it is increase that is called "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these things to mind [440] both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase, development, and perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of understanding ... [for words elided see Dhs. 16] ... non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in improvement' (Vbh. 325-26). 16. tatiyattike aayo naama vuddhi, saa duvidhaa anatthahaanito atthuppattito ca. tattha kosalla.m aayakosalla.m. yathaaha -- ``tattha katama.m aayakosalla.m? ime me dhamme manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva akusalaa dhammaa na uppajjanti, uppannaa ca akusalaa dhammaa pahiiyanti, ime vaa panime dhamme manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva kusalaa dhammaa uppajjanti. uppannaa ca kusalaa dhammaa bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa sa.mvattantiiti, yaa tattha pa~n~naa pajaananaa ... pe0 ... amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi, ida.m vuccati aayakosalla''nti (vibha0 771). 17. Non-increase is what is called "detriment". That also is twofold as the diminution of good and the arousing of harm. Skill in detriment is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in detriment? When a man brings these things to mind, both unarisen profitable things do not arise ... ' (Vbh. 326) and so on. 17. apaayoti pana avuddhi, saapi duvidhaa atthahaanito ca anatthuppattito ca. tattha kosalla.m apaayakosalla.m. yathaaha ``tattha katama.m apaayakosalla.m? ime dhamme manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva kusalaa dhammaa na uppajjantii''tiaadi (vibha0 771). 18. But in either of these cases any skill in means to cause the production of such and such things, which skill occurs at that moment and is aroused on that occasion, is what is called "skill in means", according as it is said: 'And all understanding of means thereto is "skill in means"' (Vbh. 326). 18. sabbattha pana tesa.m tesa.m dhammaana.m upaayesu nibbattikaara.nesu ta.mkha.nappavatta.m .thaanuppattika.m kosalla.m upaayakosalla.m naama. yathaaha -- ``sabbaapi tatrupaayaa pa~n~naa upaayakosalla''nti (vibha0 771). So it is of three kinds as skill in improvement, in detriment, and in means. eva.m aayaapaayaupaayakosallavasena tividhaa. 25677 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:26am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 19 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 19. 10. In the fourth triad, insight-understanding initiated by apprehending one's own aggregates is "interpreting the internal"(6). That initiated by apprehending another's aggregates or external materiality not bound up with the faculties, [that is, inanimate matter], is "interpreting the external". That initiated by apprehending both is "interpreting the internal and external". So it is of three kinds as interpreting the internal, and so on. 19. catutthattike attano khandhe gahetvaa aaraddhaa vipassanaa pa~n~naa ajjhattaabhinivesaa. parassa khandhe baahira.m vaa anindriyabaddharuupa.m gahetvaa aaraddhaa bahiddhaabhinivesaa. ubhaya.m gahetvaa aaraddhaa ajjhattabahiddhaabhinivesaati eva.m ajjhattaabhinivesaadivasena tividhaa. (6). The word "abhinivisati" with its noun "abhinivesa" means literally 'to dwell on', and so to adhere, or 'insist'. In the Tipi.taka it always appears in a bad sense and always appears in contexts with wrong view and clinging (see e.g. M.iii, 30-31, Nd. I, 436 and also Ps. quoted above at Ch. I, 140). However, in the Commentaries the word appears also in a good sense as at Ch. XIV, 130, Ch. XXI, 73 and 83f., and at MA.i,250 (cf. "saddha.m nivisati", M.ii,173). In this good sense it is synonymous with "right" interpretation of experience. All the bare experience of perception is interpreted by the mind either in the sense of permanence, pleasure, self, which is wrong because it is not confirmed by experience, or in the sense of impermanence, etc., which is right because it is confirmed by experience (see Ch. XIV, 130). There is no not interpreting experience, and it is a function of the mind that the interpretation adopted is 'dwelt upon', i.e. insisted upon. And so it is this insistence or interpretation in accordance with reality as confirmed by experience that is the "abhinivesa" of the Commentaries in the good sense. For these reasons the words "interpretation", "misinterpretation" and "insistence" have been chosen here as renderings. 25678 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:39am Subject: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Everybody has one and the only one mind ( from science point of view ). Actually mind has as army of soldiers ( mental factors ) led by the general ( Citta ) or the king or the leader. When citta works like a king, accompanying cetasikas work as ministers. Ministers advise the king and the king does all the action. So, for everything, the king is responsible. There are four sets of ministers. 1.Permanent ministers(Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas) 2.Flexible ministers(Pakinnaka Cetasikas) 3.Destructive ministers(Akusala Cetasikas) 4.Constructive ministers(Kusala Cetasikas) Cetasikas cannot perceive senses,which is function of citta.But their accompaniment makes the citta different names. So they can be conferred designers. Cetasikas help citta, advise citta, drive citta and do have many effects on citta. But citta behaves itself and always leads all the mental bodies. The existence of Cetasikas is hard to be aware of if one has not learned about it. Mind is made up of Citta and Cetasikas. They come in a series without any interruption. As Citta is the leader, there always is a Citta but they are not the same and each Citta only lives just a moment ( one billionth of a blink ). In a continuous flux of Cittas, each Citta is accompanied by different combinations of Cetasikas. It is these Cetasikas that make known Citta with different names. Actually from the view point of its character, there is one and only one Citta. Citta is pure. It is clean. It is luminous. It is radiant. It is free of sins and free of all Akusala. This is its origionality. But as Cetasikas always accompany him, its pureness has gone and there arise different Cittas good and bad. We can strive to obtain Citta to be back into its normality as the purest. To do this is to eliminate all Cetasikas. This again seems to be impossible. But there is a possibility that these Cetasikas can be totally stopped if arising of Citta can be stopped. Citta arises due to condition. Deconditioning will finally lead to a state when there is no more chance of arising of Citta as at the time after '' Cuticitta of Arahats''. To eliminate Cetasikas needs to understand them first. All events and happenings are related to Citta and Cetasikas. So the way of liberation is also connected with Citta and Cetasikas again. May you all have a clearer view on Cetasikas. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25679 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Hi Jon, I gave an example of what I thought might be virati (restraint). You replied: " . . . . I doubt that it would actually be restraint since there is nothing imminent enough to raise the possibility of akusala action." --------------- Thanks for pointing that out. My assumption was that the possibility for akusala action would have be one that arose against the actor's wishes. After all, a criminal who breaks into a house and then changes his mind about murdering the inhabitants can hardly expect to be treated as a hero. But maybe he is, at the moment of changing his mind, making a supreme effort. By comparison, most law-abiding citizens are simply doing what comes naturally -- nothing difficult or heroic at all. --------------- J: > As a matter of interest, it is said that for the arahant there is never any restraint since there is never any inclination to undertake wrong action. So even where a 'situation' presents itself, still there is no virati. --------------- Yes, that is interesting. He has no further need of restraint: 'the good life has been lived: done is what had to be done.' The criminal, resisting his own homicidal urges, is, in his way, living the good life -- doing what still needs to be done. Whereas the law-abiding citizen, sitting harmlessly in front of television, might be 'living on stale fare' (as I think it is called in one of the suttas) -- complacently living off good kamma accumulated in previous lifetimes. ----------------- KH: > > In what way is carnal desire suffering as > opposed to the cause of suffering? J: > It's true that the Buddha spoke about the akusala vipaka that results from committing akusala kamma, as CP refers to in his article, but reflecting along these lines can lead one to the conclusion that the 'antidote' is samatha/the jhaanas. I think the Buddha was at pains to point out continually the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) of all conditioned dhammas, and the need for them to be seen as such as the only way to end suffering forever. ----------------- Oh yes, I should have realised that was what you meant. Thanks for spelling it out. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25680 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self-sacrifice Hi Christine, I’ll leave others to answer the first parts of yr question. I wonder if that bandit sutta we often hear referred to is in the Tipitaka at all? --- christine_forsyth wrote > Buddhadatta's dictionary shows self-sacrifice (m.) attapariccaaga. .... pariccaaga - 5 kinds of sacrifice necessary for a Bodhisatta to make: wife, children, kingdom, life, limb DhAiii 441. Also comy to Buddhavamsa, Clar. of Sweet meaning, 1 Jewel Walk, p79 “When I had fulfilled all the thirty perfections, had made the five great sacrifices, and from the conduct on behalf of kinsmen, from the conduct for the sake of the world, had reached the summit of the (various kinds of ) conduct - wisdom, and had given great gifts for hundreds for a week , and the earth had quaked seven times, I deceasing from individuality as Vessantara, was reborn for a second time in tusita-abode.” Metta, Sarah P.S. Thx for your further clarification on A.Brahmavamso’s article. ===== 25681 From: Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/29/03 5:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > >Howard: > > I disagree. Dhammas are exactly events and features of events. > .... > S: Reference please! > ..... > H: >If a > >dhamma is not an event or a feature, then it is a "thing" - an entity, > >and > >this > >is where objective substantialism enters in! There are only occurrences > >and > >features of occurrences, all fleeting and conditioned. > .... > ========================= Just look at them: Contact, feeling, recognition, volition, concentration, odor, taste, hardness - I see these as events/features. That is what these "things" are to me. I need no reference to see these this way, and I think that to see them as "things" is to reify, and impose the concepts of self, separateness, and stasis. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25682 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- Larry wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Okay, I understand what you mean now: the category of developing > tranquility includes developing loving kindness and any other > wholesome state because tranquility arises in all wholesome states. Just two minor refinements to the above. First, samatha includes loving kindness and any other wholesome *purely mental* state. As I explained in my previous post, it is a form of wholesome mental 'action'. It does not need any action through body or speech to be completed (unlike, say, dana/giving). Secondly, we are talking about moments of samatha consciousness and not necessarily its development, which brings in certain other issues. I think it's important to realise that people of any or no religious belief can have samatha moments when, for example, they consider helping another out of regard for the person's welfare, ponder on the value of living a wholesome life, plan how to perform some act of generosity or support for another, reflect on the law of cause and effect, consider ways of helping someone in need, and the like. Insofar as kusala is involved in each case, these could all be aspects of samatha. So there may well be (and most likely are) moments of samatha in our normal daily life. Pondering over things we read on, or are thinking of posting to, this list would be an obvious candidate (Dhammanussati). Anything you don't agree with here? Jon PS Sorry, but I've not been able to find the passage on Howard's point about the tranquility of a murderer. Please post a reference if you'd like to discuss. Thanks. 25683 From: Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/29/03 5:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S: ..and if you’re too radical for Howard.....!! (I think he blows a > little hot and cold with the namarupic flux.....but I note he knows when > he’s stepping out of the ‘Tripitaka constraints’;-)) > ========================== Flattery *will* get you somewhere, Sarah - but not quite far enough! ;-)) With baskets of metta, Howard P.S. Are you choosing the Sanskrit spelling 'T-r-i-p-i-t-a-k-a' because you think you're encountering Mahayanist heresy? ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25684 From: Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/29/03 5:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > >Howard: > > They have characteristics/features. But they don't have *intrinsic* > >nature! They are what they are - and they "are" at all - in dependence > >on > >other > >silmilarly empty phenomena, and,thus, their "natures" are *not* > >intrinsic. > >Also, mind-constructs, such as the keyboard-construct (a mental > >construct) > >that > >seems to point to keyboard entity has characteristcs as well, > >characteristics > > > >derived from the phenomena that served as its basis. (Uh, oh - heading > >for an > > > >F- grade!! ;-) > .... > S: Where to start? If we say that a characteristic of seeing consciousness > is to experience visible object and that seeing is anicca and so on, why > should these characteristics or distinct features as discussed throughout > the Tipitaka (not just the Abhidhamma) be seen as stumbling blocks or lead > to self-views? On the contrary, understanding the ‘nature’ or > characteristics of various dhammas is essential to understanding anatta as > I see it. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's a matter of emphasis, Sarah, and of language. The emphasis strongly suggests an adherence to discretist, self-existence view. The word 'intrinsic' clinches it. Both connotation and denotation are dangerous. See the following: *************************** Main Entry: in·trin·sic Pronunciation: in-'trin-zik, -'trin(t)-sik Function: adjective Etymology: Middle French intrinsèque internal, from Late Latin intrinsecus, from Latin, adverb, inwardly; akin to Latin intra within —more at INTRA- Date: 1642 1 a : belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing b : being or relating to a semiconductor in which the concentration of charge carriers is characteristic of the material itself instead of the content of any impurities it contains 2 a : originating or due to causes within a body, organ, or part b : originating and included wholly within an organ or part — compare EXTRINSIC 1b - in·trin·si·cal·ly /-zi-k(&-)lE, -si-/ adverb ********************************* I particularly draw your attention to "belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing" and to "originating and included wholly within an organ or part". Compare this with the following definition of 'extrinsic' : "originating from or on the outside". The Buddhist position, of course, is a middle-way one which is neither intrinsic nor extrinsic. Both of those extremes are grounded in a substantialist sense. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > If we talk about characteristics of concepts such as ‘keyboard’, it’s OK, > but the meaning is different from the ‘fundamental’ or ‘inherent’ > characteristics of paramattha dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not all that different. The characteristics of a tree, such as its hardness, are determined by the dhammas that we take to be its parts. Some Greek philosophers would no doubt say that hardness is intrinsic to a tree! The characteristics of paramattha dhammas, and their very (fleeting) "existences", are determined by the conditions that led to their arising. The difference is that of macroscopic vs microscopic, sankharic-construction vs arising only from non-sankharic conditions, and direct apprehension vs indirect apprehension. What is important in all cases is the dependent origination and emptiness. ------------------------------------------------- > > Have you got a reference which suggests concepts have lakkana > (characteristics)? [If there’s one reference or sutta for all qus, that > would be convenient.....] ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This is evident. If they had no characteristics there would be no way of distinguishing them! We *do* distinguish concepts. One doesn't need scriptural references for everything. If we did, wed have to carry a pocket book of suttas around with us to live on this planet. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25685 From: Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/29/03 5:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > >Howard: > > The terms and the corresponding ideas do. And the ideas are directly > > > >experienced as namas within the namarupic flux. > .... > S: How can ideas be experienced as namas?? > =========================== What!? One could ask how cittas can be experienced as namas! Ideas *are* namas. What should they be experienced as? Not rupas. That's all there is, Sarah - namas, rupas, and absences (most especially nibbana). That's all there is. If we experience ideas - and we certainly do (!), then they are either namas, rupas, or absences (including nibbana). Unfortunately, not only do we experience ideas, we take them much too seriously. They are, after all, *only* ideas! With metta, Howard P.S. I replied to your post to TG and me by means of several short posts, each addressing a separate aspect of your post. I don't think there is is too much more that won't simply be repetitive that I can add. I hope these few short posts have clarified my positions. (Now back to meditating. ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25686 From: sukinder Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:58am Subject: Sutta and interpretation. Dear All, The Sutta about the monk, one of two brothers, who was having a hard time to understand the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha then gives him a cloth to rub a stone (?) and he came to recognize impermanence. Can someone direct me to it? At the Sat. discussions Shakti made reference to it and I unknowingly, identified this as the 'Simile of the Cloth'. Shakti, I hope you are reading this. Now that was one mistake needing correction and now I wonder if my interpretation is also not wrong. What I said was, I can relate the above case to my own tendency to moha, and I am sure others can also. That there will often be times when one is listening or reading the Dhamma, but there is no understanding at all. It seems at those times, as if the words are just bouncing off one's ears. So I believe, that in the case of this particular monk, there were conditions for such moha to arise almost *all* the time! Only because there was lots of accumulated panna as anussya, that when he did get the chance to reflect on impermanence, which he must have done quite a bit in previous lives, then he was reminded of its real significance and meaning. Later on to Ivan, I also added that the fact that this monk did not make the *wrong* interpretation, which would have been a reflection of 'wrong view', showed at least that the main obstacle to Vipassana, was not there to say anything about the lack of intelligence!! Am I on the right track. If no, I would like to hear a more accurate interpretation. Thanks everyone in advance. Mike, would like to hear your views, long time no hear from you. :-) Best wishes, Sukin. 25687 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:38am Subject: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Chapter 12 The Buddha¹s Last Meal Introduction. The Buddha¹s last meal, on the day of his final passing away, was offered by Cunda the Smith. People have been wondering whether this meal contained meat and different explanations have been given to the term ³súkara maddava² used to designate this meal. This Issue deals with its meaning. We read in the Commentary to the ³Mahåparinibbåna Sutta² that the deities of the four great continents and their twothousand surrounding islands infused nutritive essence into the food. Therefore, it was not able to be properly digested by anyone else but the Buddha. We read in the Commentary to the ³Cunda Sutta², Commentary to the ³Verses of Uplift², that, for this reason, the Buddha had the remains of this food buried in a pit and that he gave an explanation for this. He wanted to release Cunda from the blame of others who might give the wrong explanation of the fact that the remains were not given to the monks or to other people. Afterwards the Buddha spoke to Ånanda that Cunda might have remorse but that this should be dispelled by telling him that it was of great gain that he had offered the last meal to the Buddha. Ånanda should tell Cunda: ²There are two offerings of food which are of equal fruition, of equal outcome, exceeding in grandeur the fruition and result of any other offerings of food. Which two? The one partaken of by the Tathågata on becoming fully enlightened, in unsurpassed, supreme enlightenment; and the one partaken of by the Tathågata on coming to pass into the state of Nibbåna wherein the elements of clinging do not arise. By his deed has the venerable Cunda accumulated that which makes for long life, beauty, wellbeing, glory, heavenly rebirth, and sovereignty!² [1] ****** Issue of Analysis: Was the ³delicate pig², ³súkara maddava², the Buddha consumed on the day of his final passing away (parinibbåna) porc? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: It was porc¹s meat. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The Commentary to the ³Mahåparinibbåna Sutta², in the ³Sumaògala Vilåsiní², Commentary to the Dialogues of the Buddha. 2. The Commentary to the Cunda Sutta, in the ³Paramatthadípaní², Commentary to the ³Verses of Uplift². 3. The ³Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning², ³Madhuratthavilåsiní², Commentary to the ³Chronicle of Buddhas², Buddhavaósa. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: Different teachers have different opinions about the ³súkara maddava² that the Buddha consumed on the day of his final passing away. They explain it as: young bamboo shoots eaten by swine, truffles eaten by them, soft-boiled rice or an alchemistic elixir. However, the Commentaries clearly explain that ³súkara maddava² is pig¹s meat. In the Commentary to the ³Mahåparinibbåna Sutta² (Ch 4, translated by Yang-Gyu An) it is said: ³Pork stew (súkaramaddava): the fresh meat (pavattamamsa) from a prize pig that is neither too young nor too old. That, people say, is both tender and succulent. The meaning is that he had it prepared and carefully cooked. But some teachers say that Œsúkaramaddava¹ is the name of a recipe for cooking soft-boiled rice with the five liquid products of the cow, just as cow¹s milk is the name of a beverage. Others say that Œsúkaramaddava¹ is the name for a kind of elixir.² The Commentary to the Cunda Sutta (translated by Peter Masefield) states: ³It is said in the Great Commentary that Œsúkaramaddava¹ is the already available meat of the pig that is tender and succulent. Some, however, say that Œsúkaramaddava¹ is not pig¹s meat (but rather) bamboo shoots that pigs (súkarehi) have trampled upon (maddita), others that it is a mushroom that has come into being at a spot that pigs (súkarehi) have trampled upon (maddita), whilst still others proclaim that Œsúkaramaddava¹ is the name for a certain elixir. For it was this, they say, that Cunda, the Smith¹s son, gave out of a desire to have the Teacher live for a long time, hoping, ŒSurely he will remain a while longer once he has consumed this¹, after coming to hear that the Lord was to attain parinibbåna that same day.² The ³Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning², the Commentary to the ³Chronicle of Buddhas², in the Exposition of ³The Differences between the Buddhas², relates what is the regulation for all Buddhas. Among the thirty regulations, we read about the twentyninth: ³Partaking of the flavour of meat on the day of the final nibbåna.² This clearly states that the ³súkaramaddava² the Buddha consumed on the day of his final passing away was meat. The súkaramaddava (pig¹s meat) was not poisonous food, but it was delicate food and when the Buddha had eaten it, it enabled him to walk on foot to the city of Kusinåra. We read in the Commentary to the ³Mahåparinibbåna Sutta² : ³ Cunda prepared the súkaramaddava with an elixir, thinking, ŒLet the Blessed One not attain parinibbåna¹. And the deities of the four great continents and their twothousand surrounding islands infused nutritive essence into it.² The same Commentary explains the words of the Sutta text: ³Bhuttassa ca súkara-maddavenå², and after he had eaten from the súkara-maddava, a dire sickness fell upon him...² We read: ³It happened to him when he had eaten, but not because he had eaten [2] . If he had not eaten, the pains would have been too strong [3] ; but because he had eaten the succulent food, his pain was slight, which is why he was able to walk on foot.² ****** Footnotes 1. I wrote the Introduction, and for the translation of the text I used the ³Wheel², no 67-69, B.P.S. Sri Lanka. 2. The Buddha had pains and dysentery after the meal. But the pains were not caused by the porkstew. 3. Yang-Gyu An translates: ³If it had happened when he had not eaten, it would have been too painful.² ******** translated from Thai. Nina 25688 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 19 Hi Larry, 27-09-2003 19:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Does "insistence" and "interpretation" refer to javana because javana > citta is repeated 7 times in citta process? In this text it refers to right interpretation, to vipassana pañña, not just to the repetition of javana. Also clinging arises in javana, seven times. L: Also, I was wondering if > root cittas only arise in javana? N: They can also arise as mahaavipaakacittas, such as rebirth and also as retention, tadaaramma.na-cittas. Nina. 25689 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:38am Subject: Visuddhimagga. Tiika 17 Vis:XIV, 17. Non-increase is what is called detriment. That also is twofold as the diminution of good and the arousing of harm. Skill in detriment is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in detriment? When a man brings these things to mind, both unarisen profitable things do not arise ... ' (Vbh. 326) and so on. 17. apaayoti pana avuddhi, saapi duvidhaa atthahaanito ca anatthuppattito ca. tattha kosalla.m apaayakosalla.m. yathaaha ``tattha katama.m apaayakosalla.m? ime dhamme manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva kusalaa dhammaa na uppajjantii''tiaadi (vibha0 771). Tiika17: words: apeta (apeti): gone away, without mati (f): wisdom, opinion, thought matta: as much as, like, just as samattha: skilled, proficient nirujjati: vanish, cease Tiika text: 17. vuddhilakkha.naa aayato apetattaa apaayo, avuddhi. Detriment is being without the characteristic of increase, without improvement, it is non-increase. tattha kosallanti tasmi.m atthahaanianatthuppattilakkha.ne apaaye kosalla.m kusalataa apaayakosalla.m. As to the words, skill in these, mean: skill in detriment concerning the characteristic of the diminution of benefit and the arousing of harm, that what is profitable, skill in detriment. tampi paa.livaseneva dassetu.m ``ime dhamme''tiaadi vutta.m. ³These dhammas etc.² * is said, in order to show that this is also according to the text. tattha ida.m vuccatiiti yaa imesa.m kusaladhammaana.m anuppajjananirujjhanesu, akusaladhammaana.m vaa uppatti.t.thitiisu pa~n~naa, Herein this is called, means: understanding concerning the non-arising and cessation of profitable dhammas and the arising and maintenance of unprofitable dhammas, ida.m apaayakosalla.m naamaati vuccati. this is called skill in detriment. aayakosalla.m taava pa~n~naa hotu, apaayakosalla.m katha.m pa~n~naa naama jaataati? Let only skill in improvement be understanding, but why does skill in detriment come to be called understanding? eva.m ma~n~nati ``apaayuppaadanasamatthataa apaayakosalla.m naama siyaa''ti, ta.m pana tassa matimatta.m. He thinks thus: Proficiency concerning the arousing of detriment may be called skill in detriment, and therefore it is just the understanding of it. kasmaa? pa~n~navaa eva hi ``mayha.m eva.m manasi karoto anuppannaa kusalaa dhammaa nuppajjanti, uppannaa nirujjhanti. Why? It is truly understanding when one knows: ²When I pay attention in this way knowing that unarisen profitable dhammas do not arise, and that arisen profitable dhammas dwindle away, anuppannaa akusalaa dhammaa uppajjanti, uppannaa pava.d.dhantii''ti pajaanaati, and that unarisen unprofitable dhammas arise, and arisen unprofitable dhammas increase. so eva.m ~natvaa anuppanne akusale na uppaadeti, uppanne pajahati. When he understands this, unarisen unprofitable dhammas do not arise, and those which have arisen cease, anuppanne kusale uppaadeti, uppanne bhaavanaapaaripuuri.m paapeti. unarisen profitable dhammas arise, and he brimgs those that have arisen to perfection through development. eva.m apaayakosallampi pa~n~naa evaati. Thus also skill in detriment is truly understanding. **** English: Detriment is being without the characteristic of increase, without improvement, it is non-increase. As to the words, skill in these, mean: skill in detriment concerning the characteristic of the diminution of benefit and the arousing of harm, that what is profitable, skill in detriment. ³These dhammas etc.² * is said, in order to show that this is also according to the text. Herein this is called, means: understanding concerning the non-arising and cessation of profitable dhammas and the arising and maintenance of unprofitable dhammas, this is called skill in detriment. Let only skill in improvement be understanding, but why does skill in detriment come to be called understanding? He thinks thus: Proficiency concerning the arousing of detriment may be called skill in detriment, and therefore it is just the understanding of it. Why? It is truly understanding when one knows: ²When I pay attention in this way knowing that unarisen profitable dhammas do not arise, and that arisen profitable dhammas dwindle away, and that unarisen unprofitable dhammas arise, and arisen unprofitable dhammas increase. When he understands this, unarisen unprofitable dhammas do not arise, and those which have arisen cease, unarisen profitable dhammas arise, and he brimgs those that have arisen to perfection through development. Thus also skill in detriment is truly understanding. _____ * In paying attention to these dhammas. ****** Nina. 25690 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: questions about citta. Dear KKT, op 26-09-2003 22:28 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > I have some more questions: > > __I still don't understand why > an actual Citta can't be aware of itself? > (Htoo Naing has answered this question > and I will read carefully his answer) N: Object-condition is one of the conditions for citta. When it arises it has straightaway an object, it could not arise without having an object. The object is other than that citta. KKT: __Does it mean that it seems > impossible for us to << live in the present >> > because we can only be aware > of the just fallen Citta and Cetasikas? N: It depends how one defines the present. It citta that is only just fallen away is still present. Its characteristic appears and you can prove it. We do not have to count moments. See my example about the dosa. KKT: __The notion of << pure mind >> > in the sense of a Citta existing alone > is impossible since Citta is always > accompanied by other Cetasikas? >> __In this phrase of Anguttara I,VI > > This mind (ie. Citta), O monks, > is luminous, but it is defiled ... etc. > > what is the meaning of << luminous >> ? N: Pure. Here it refers to the bhavangacitta: no defilements yet, citta is not yet involved in the objects which impinge and on account of which defilements arise. In other texts we see that also other kinds of citta are called pure, see archives of dsg. Num and Sarah wrote about this. Citta experiences an object, it clearly knows an object, and citta itself is not defilement, defilements which can accompany it are specific cetasikas. Luminous mind, we had many debates with Rob Ep. In the Mahayana tradition as you know nibbana is called luminous mind. You referred to Zen for this. Suan also wrote about this subject. KKT: __Same thing for the notion of > << empty mind >> which is absurd > since the << mind >> is never > empty of Cittas and Cetasikas? N: It is empty of the self, it is anatta. Also the word su~n~natta, empty, is used for anatta. And references are in the Middle length Sayings. III, no. 121-130, in the Sunnnattavagga. Nina. 25691 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:46am Subject: Re: Self-sacrifice Hi, Christine and Sarah ~ I think the bandit thing comes from the Vsm on metta and might not be a sutta... Suppose a person is sitting in a place with a dear, a neutral and a hostile person, himself being the fourth; then bandits come to him and say 'Venerable Sir, give us a bhikkhu', and on being asked why, they answer, 'So that we may kill him and use the blood of his throat as an offering'. That's all I have of it. peace, connie 25692 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Chapter 12 > > The Buddha¹s Last Meal > > Introduction. > > The Buddha¹s last meal, on the day of his final passing away, was offered by Hi Nina, I don't believe that you write these dhamma issues but I do take exception to this one about the Buddha's last meal. This dhamma issue states "We read in the Commentary to the ³Mahåparinibbåna Sutta² that the deities of the four great continents and their two thousand surrounding islands infused nutritive essence into the food. Therefore, it was not able to be properly digested by anyone else but the Buddha." Not only is this foreign idea not supported whatsoever by the text, it doesn't make any sense. Allow me to quote from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta: 4.20 And after having eaten the meal provided by Cunda, the Lord was attacked by a severe sickness with bloody diarrhea, and with sharp pains as if he were about to die. [128] But he endured all this mindfully and clearly aware, and without complaint. Then the Lord said: `Ananda, let us go to Kusinara.' `Very good Lord', said Ananda. Having eaten Cunda's meal (this I've heard), He suffered a grave illness, painful, deathly; From eating a meal of `pig's delight' Grave sickness assailed the Teacher. Having purged, the Lord then said: `Now I'll go to Kusinara town' 419 And this dhamma issue also goes on to state, "The súkaramaddava (pig¹s meat) was not poisonous food, but it was delicate food and when the Buddha had eaten it, it enabled him to walk on foot to the city of Kusinåra." Huh? It gave him bloody diarrhea and pains as if he were about to die, I would not call that delicate food. Additionally, they got it wrong because the Buddha didn't even make it to the town of Kusinara. He had to stop twice along the way to rest from sickness and decided to take his parinibbana just outside of the town of Kusinara, he didn't make it to the city proper. Ananda was upset by this and said to the Buddha, "Lord, may the Blessed Lord not pass away in this miserable little town of wattle- and-daub, right in the jungle in the back of beyond!..." The Buddha chastised Ananda for saying this and sent him on to the town of Kusinara to inform the townspeople that the Buddha was passing away just outside of their town. These facts run contrary to the idea that the food was blessed by devas and allowed the Buddha to walk by foot to the town; he was very sick the entire way and he didn't even make it to the town...he died in the jungle. Frankly, I think the commentaries have it really wrong about this one. Do you have any input? Metta, James 25693 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 0:41pm Subject: Re: Self-sacrifice Hello Sarah, Connie, and all, Thanks for your posts. ... (even though Sarah mentioned the V.. word. :-)) You were right Connie, it isn't a sutta, it's in the Visuddhimagga IX.41 "Suppose this person is sitting in a place with a dear, a neutral, and a hostile person, himself being the fourth; then bandits come to him and say 'Venerable sir, give us a bhikkhu, and on being asked why, they answer 'So that we may kill him and use the blood of his throat as an offering', then if that bhikkhu thinks 'Let them take this one, or this one', he has not broken down the barriers. And also if he thinks 'Let them take me but not these three', he has not broken down the bariers either. Why? Because he seeks the harm of him whom he wishes to be taken and seeks the welfare of the others only. But it is when he does not see a single one among the four people to be given to the bandits and he directs his mind impartially towards himself and towards those three people that he has broken down the barriers. Hence the Ancients said: "When he discriminates between The four, that is himself, the dear, The neutral, and the hostile one, Then "Skilled" is not the name he gets, Nor "Having Amity At Will", But only "Kindly Towards Beings", Now when a bhikkhu's barriers, Have all the four been broken down, He treats with equal amity The whole world with its deities; Far more distinguished than the first Is He Who Knows No Barriers." Hard to think in this way, hard to turn from the way one has been trained, hard to shake off the values admired in our society, hard to not feel impelled to try to rescue others from fear and pain, to alleviate and comfort them in their suffering by offering oneself ... sounds sort of apathetic somehow, or even lacking in courage. I wonder why this wouldn't just be clinging to self disguised by high sounding words? "Kindly Towards Beings" sounds pretty good to me ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi, Christine and Sarah ~ > > I think the bandit thing comes from the Vsm on metta and might not be a > sutta... > > Suppose a person is sitting in a place with a dear, a neutral and a > hostile person, himself being the fourth; then bandits come to him and > say 'Venerable Sir, give us a bhikkhu', and on being asked why, they > answer, 'So that we may kill him and use the blood of his throat as an > offering'. > > That's all I have of it. > > peace, > connie 25694 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hiya Sukin, Have a look at a previous post by RobK: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24981 Looking forward to seeing you (and all) soon,:-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinder" wrote: > Dear All, > > The Sutta about the monk, one of two brothers, who was having a hard > time to understand the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha then gives him a > cloth to rub a stone (?) and he came to recognize impermanence. Can > someone direct me to it? At the Sat. discussions Shakti made reference > to it and I unknowingly, identified this as the 'Simile of the Cloth'. > Shakti, I hope you are reading this. > Now that was one mistake needing correction and now I wonder if my > interpretation is also not wrong. > 25695 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:25pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 01 ) Hi Htoo, Interesting post. Will this be a series? I have inserted some questions / comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Everybody has one and the only one mind ( from science point of > view ). ===== I'm not sure what you mean here. ===== Actually mind has as army of soldiers ( mental factors ) led > by the general ( Citta ) or the king or the leader. When citta works > like a king, accompanying cetasikas work as ministers. Ministers > advise the king and the king does all the action. So, for > everything, the king is responsible. > > There are four sets of ministers. > > 1.Permanent ministers(Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas) > 2.Flexible ministers(Pakinnaka Cetasikas) > 3.Destructive ministers(Akusala Cetasikas) > 4.Constructive ministers(Kusala Cetasikas) > > Cetasikas cannot perceive senses,which is function of citta.But their > accompaniment makes the citta different names. So they can be > conferred designers. Cetasikas help citta, advise citta, drive citta > and do have many effects on citta. But citta behaves itself and > always leads all the mental bodies. ===== According to CMA, the functions of citta are: - As an agent, citta is that which cognizes an object - As an instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the the object - As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object I suspect that you are taking your "King and retinue" analogy from Atthasalini (p90). Buddhaghosa used this analogy to stress the inseparabality of citta and cetasika, but I am concerned that you are extending the metaphor beyond its intended usage. Specifically, though citta is the forerunner (only for worldly phenomena - interesting enough, for transcendental phenomena, understanding is the forerunner), I am not clear what you mean by, "citta behaves itself and always leads all the mental bodies." ===== > The existence of Cetasikas is hard to be aware of if one has not > learned about it. Mind is made up of Citta and Cetasikas. They come > in a series without any interruption. As Citta is the leader, there > always is a Citta but they are not the same and each Citta only lives > just a moment ( one billionth of a blink ). ===== I don't think that it possible to be aware of a cetasika as distinct from the associated citta? This section could be misinterpreted as saying that cetasika follow citta in a series and that citta is the leader of the series. ===== > > In a continuous flux of Cittas, each Citta is accompanied by > different combinations of Cetasikas. It is these Cetasikas that make > known Citta with different names. Actually from the view point of its > character, there is one and only one Citta. > > Citta is pure. It is clean. It is luminous. It is radiant. It is free > of sins and free of all Akusala. This is its origionality. But as > Cetasikas always accompany him, its pureness has gone and there arise > different Cittas good and bad. ===== Again, I am concerned that one might infer that one could be aware of a citta as distinct from its concommitant cetasikas. What do you mean by "from the view point of character"? ===== > > We can strive to obtain Citta to be back into its normality as the > purest. To do this is to eliminate all Cetasikas. This again seems to > be impossible. But there is a possibility that these Cetasikas can be > totally stopped if arising of Citta can be stopped. ===== Again, I have a problem with the implication that cetasikas can be treated as distinct from citta (i.e. eliminated). ===== > Citta arises due to condition. Deconditioning will finally lead to a > state when there is no more chance of arising of Citta as at the time > after '' Cuticitta of Arahats''. To eliminate Cetasikas needs to > understand them first. All events and happenings are related to Citta > and Cetasikas. So the way of liberation is also connected with Citta > and Cetasikas again. ===== What is meant by "deconditioning"? This could be interpreted as suggesting that parinibbana as the goal; the Buddha always said that the attainment of nibbana, not parinibbana was the goal. I salute your effort - I will interested in your feedback on my comments. Metta, Rob M :-) 25696 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 13-16 for comment Why do people study the Abhidhamma? Slide Contents ============== A stick figure of a man: Study ----- Leg: Nature of mind - Greed (lobha) - Hatred (dosa) - Delusion (moha) Leg: Characterisitics of existence - Impermanence (anicca) - Suffering (dukkha) - No Self (anatta) Lower Torso: Five Aggregates - How the mind and the body interact Practice -------- Arm: Giving (Dana) - Do good Arm: Virtue (Sila) - Avoid evil Upper Torso (with a heart): Meditation (Bhavana) - Purify the mind Realization ----------- Head: Wisdom (Pañña) Speaker Notes ============= The foundation of the Abhidhamma is an understanding of the nature of reality. This includes the nature of mind, the three characteristics of existence and the realities which constitute a being – the five aggregates. Abhidhamma provides a framework for the understanding of our everyday experience and this understanding is a condition for the arising of insight. The mind plays a central role in Buddhism. The first verses of the Dhammapada: "Mind is the forerunner of all evil states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with a wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of all good states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with a pure mind, because of that, happiness follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." "Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind, that is the teaching of the Buddhas." Abhidhamma is the study of the mind, and this will lead to a more effective practice and eventually a "trained mind". The Bhumija Sutta (Mn126) explains that results are obtained, not because of strong desire for results, but rather because of proper practice. The practice of dana, sila and bhavana will lead to wisdom. Abhidhamma is meant for practical use in following the Eightfold Path, rather than for abstract theorizing. We start by studying the nature of reality. We follow this with putting the theory into practice through dana, sila and bhavana. The correct practice will lead us to realization or wisdom. 25697 From: Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, Everything you wrote seems alright to me. The question about the tranquility of a murderer refers to feelings of tranquility which may arise while intending, committing, or resulting from the commission of an akusala act. Is this tranquility kusala or akusala? Howard only mentioned this in passing and I don't know if anyone responded; the reference was to Jeffrey Dahmer, a famous murderer in the U.S. I agree tranquility is only mental. There is no tranquility of rupa. Since we are discussing kusala I might ask what is so wholesome about understanding (panna) the arising and passing of dhammas? Scientists and gamblers do this all the time. Larry 25698 From: Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 19 L: "Also, I was wondering if root cittas only arise in javana? N: "They can also arise as mahaavipaakacittas, such as rebirth and also as retention, tadaaramma.na-cittas." H Nina, Thanks for your replies. In these two cases of root cittas there is no kamma result, correct? Is that because there is no intention or just because they only arise once and are too weak to produce kamma? Also, do you think the word "abhinivisati" refers to javana or some other kind of process? Larry Vism. XIV, 19, n.6: The word "abhinivisati" with its noun "abhinivesa" means literally 'to dwell on', and so to adhere, or 'insist'. In the Tipi.taka it always appears in a bad sense and always appears in contexts with wrong view and clinging (see e.g. M.iii, 30-31, Nd. I, 436 and also Ps. quoted above at Ch. I, 140). However, in the Commentaries the word appears also in a good sense as at Ch. XIV, 130, Ch. XXI, 73 and 83f., and at MA.i,250 (cf. "saddha.m nivisati", M.ii,173). In this good sense it is synonymous with "right" interpretation of experience. All the bare experience of perception is interpreted by the mind either in the sense of permanence, pleasure, self, which is wrong because it is not confirmed by experience, or in the sense of impermanence, etc., which is right because it is confirmed by experience (see Ch. XIV, 130). There is no not interpreting experience, and it is a function of the mind that the interpretation adopted is 'dwelt upon', i.e. insisted upon. And so it is this insistence or interpretation in accordance with reality as confirmed by experience that is the "abhinivesa" of the Commentaries in the good sense. For these reasons the words "interpretation", "misinterpretation" and "insistence" have been chosen here as renderings. 25699 From: Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi, Larry (and Jon) - In a message dated 9/29/03 6:53:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Jon, > > Everything you wrote seems alright to me. The question about the > tranquility of a murderer refers to feelings of tranquility which may > arise while intending, committing, or resulting from the commission of > an akusala act. Is this tranquility kusala or akusala? Howard only > mentioned this in passing and I don't know if anyone responded; the > reference was to Jeffrey Dahmer, a famous murderer in the U.S. > > I agree tranquility is only mental. There is no tranquility of rupa. > > Since we are discussing kusala I might ask what is so wholesome about > understanding (panna) the arising and passing of dhammas? Scientists and > gamblers do this all the time. > > Larry > > ============================== Larry, Jon did give a reply to my post as follows: ********************************* Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Jim) - > Lists aside, wouldn't it be appropriate to say that while > Jeffrey > Dahmer was enjoying a large, satisfying dinner, his calm mindstates > were akusala? > ;-) The point, it seems to me, is that evil actions can instill > delightful > calm in some people, and that calm is certainly unwholesome. > > With metta, > Howard I'm sure you're right here. But unwholesome mindstates are the norm for everyone, it's just that there can be considerable differences in degree, so it shouldn't be assumed that the concentration of upright, law-abiding folks like you and me (hopefully) is kusala rather than akusala, even where the object is one we regard as a 'kusala' object. Sounds tough, I know, but better to face up to the size of the problem than assume (wrongly) a better case ;-)) Jon ****************************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25700 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:42pm Subject: Re: Self-sacrifice Thanks, Christine, for the rest of the Vissuddhimagga bandit thing. I was going to say that not clinging to self would be Buddhist self-sacrifice, with the idea that whatever we attain or eradicate is good for everyone else, too but if there's no self to begin with... So, the Skilled one just keeps sitting there extending metta and the bandit just picks someone? Then, someone starts reciting the Simile of the Saw. That's the one where it seems like everytime I mention it, someone says "I don't think we have to be doormats to be good Buddhists" or something about 'boundary issues' and the conversation kind of stops. I don't even know what boundary issues means... must be those barriers. But didn't Sariputta say something about being a doormat, or was it 'like the earth'? Maybe the bandit gets overwhelmed by all the metta and decides these doormats must know something worth listening to or just gets all frieked out when no one acts scared and starts thinking "I'd better get out of here while I still can." peace, connie 25701 From: Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Thanks for the reference, Howard. Larry 25702 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:35pm Subject: Advice on Discussion Topics Hi Friends, Each Sunday morning, I teach an introductory Abhidhamma class at the local temple. For the past two years, I have been using the Abhidhamma as a structure to present Dhamma topics (see my class notes in the Files section). After my class, another teacher (Bro. Teo) covers "intermediate Abhidhamma". Most of the people in the class have repeated the course at least twice (through there are some newcomers). I am starting to hear comments such as, "we've heard this before...", so I want to change my approach to teaching starting in January (new class). Rather than using the Abhidhamma as a jumping off point for Dhamma topics, I am thinking about using Dhamma topics as jumping off points for Abhidhamma topics. For example, each week, I would start with a practical question and then incorporate as much Abhidhamma as I can in the answer. Here is a partial list (in no particular order) of practical questions that would form the theme of Abhidhamma talks. I seek your advice / input as to additional questions that I could use as the basis for Dhamma talks (my emphasis is on PRACTICAL Abhidhamma, I will leave the theory to Bro. Teo). 1. What is the Abhidhamma 2. What happens when I die? 3. How does kamma work? 4. What is good and evil? 5. What are the steps to attain Nibbana? 6. What is the relationship between Buddhism and Science? 7. What is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma? 8. How do I apply anatta in daily life? 9. How does thinking occur? 10. What happens when I practice samattha meditation? 11. What happens when I practice vipassana meditation? 12. Is there free will? 13. What is the role of faith in Buddhism? 14. What is the role of rites and rituals in Buddhism? 15. What is the Buddhist perspective on life (right view)? 16. How do I control anger? 17. How do I control attachment? 18. How do I cultivate loving-kindness? 19. How do I cultivate generosity? 20. What is mindfulness? 21. What does "dependent origination" mean? 22. What are the five aggregates? 23. What are the four noble truths? 24. What does it mean to take precepts? 25. How do I cultivate karuna, mudita and upekkha? Some of these topics may take two weeks to cover properly, so I am looking for five to ten more topics so that I have a one year syllabus. Thanks for your input... Metta, Rob M :-) 25703 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:45pm Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Rob K., Christine (and Shakti), Chris, thanks for the reference. But I am now trying to locate the original story and can't find it. However from the little that has been mentioned in Robert's post, I get the impression that the lesson Culapantaka learnt may not have been 'impermanence'. So my guess is probably wrong. Robert, can you please give a more detailed explanation of your own understandings? The mention in your post of the commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, does not to me, seem to particularly point to this question. Appreciate all assistance. Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hiya Sukin, > > Have a look at a previous post by RobK: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24981 > > Looking forward to seeing you (and all) soon,:-) > > metta, > Chris > 25704 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: Self-sacrifice Hi Christine, All Christine wrote: > Dear Group, > > Is self-sacrifice viewed positively in Theravada Buddhism? Does > Buddhism have an equivalent to the Christian verse, "'Greater love > has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."? > I recall a couple of the Jatakas showing animals giving their lives > voluntarily to help others - but what of the Suttas? I don't know if this helps but I found this verse from the Samyutta Nikaya, Devatasamyutta 78 > Love "What should he not give who loves the good? What should a mortal not relinquish? What should one release when its good, But not release when its bad?" "A person should not give himself away; He should not relinquish himself. One should release speech that is good, But not speech that is bad." Commentary > One should not give oneself away by becoming the slave of another, but an exception is made for all bodhisattas, So too except for all bodhisattas, one should not relinquish oneself to lions, tigers, etc. Steve 25705 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Saturday discussions in Bkg, to SUKIN Dear Sukin, You complain about moha, good reminder, I have a lot of it too. As to attending discussions: you could make notes, this always keeps me awake! And we all will benefit too. And possibly keep your own tape recorder running at the same time. Then you can check your own tape at home, no need to wait. Looking forward to your notes, Nina. Sarah wrote to Sukin: > Re your comments on the Sat discussion - can you just > send the para as it is (or slightly edited if you > like) to DSG so others can join in or read? ... I know Nina also would like > to encourage you to do this and is more likely to give > a helpful reply then as well;-) Good qus for everyone > to consider and interesting points. 25706 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Chris, thanks for the reference. But I am now trying to locate the > original story and can't find it. ..... I also wrote a little more about it in this post (to Howard) which might be useful: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m21006.html For more details, also see this entry from Dict of Pali Proper Names: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/c/cuula_panthaka_th.htm ..... I think the point is that we all have very different inclinations and accumulations - some like to study Pali in depth, others the Abhidhamma, others the suttas and so on. Some can memorise or recount what they read easily, whilst others like you find it helpful to listen to tapes. However busy you are or whatever problems you face, you still get to the Foundation regularly for discussions and consider the teachings very deeply in your daily life. Culapantaka didn’t have his brother’s ability to memorise even a few lines and even though his bother was an arahant, he wasn’t able to appreciate what Culapantaka needed to hear. Only the Buddha knew. Culapantaka became an arahant with all the Patisambhidas (Discriminations). This is why I’d never like to suggest that everyone needs to study Pali, read the Abhidhamma texts, chant stanzas or anything else that is contrary to one’s inclinations. It’s also why I appreciate it when A.Sujin just reminds us to be aware of the present realities - the namas and rupas appearing now, regardless of whether we are being alert or forgetful, clear or confused, fast or slow and so on. It’s good to appreciate how much moha and other akusala this is even in a Dhamma discussion, I think. I believe this is also the wonder of the Buddha’s teachings, i.e that they are equally applicable to everyone and there are always present phenomena to be known, whatever the circumstances. We never know what will arise by conditions and can appreciate the truth of anatta in this regard. I like your comments very much, Sukin. Look f/w to more. Like you, I’d also be glad to hear further comments from Mike, RobK and anyone else. Metta, Sarah ===== 25707 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Dear Nina (& James), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Chapter 12 > > The Buddha1s Last Meal [....] > Issue of Analysis: Was the 3delicate pig2, 3súkara maddava2, the Buddha > consumed on the day of his final passing away (parinibbåna) porc? > Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: It was porc1s meat. .... I.B. Horner also came to this conclusion in her comments in the introduction to the ‘Clarifier of Sweet Meaning’ (transl of comy to Buddhavamsa). She wrote: “ ‘ma”msarasabhojana’, meal consisting of a flesh-product....Not in PED as a compound, though of course all 3 elements appear. The importance of the compound is that it is here said it is ‘dhammataa’, regulation, for all Buddhas that on the day of the parinibbaana there is a partaking of, or eating, ‘bhojana’, a meat or flesh, ‘ma”msa’, product, ‘rasa’. The conclusion therefore seems inescapable, even if ‘rasa’ were translated as flavour or taste, that the last meal a Buddha ate was a meat-meal or a meal in which there was meat in ome form. Therefore, this passage provides evidence that suukara-maddava, the Buddha Gotama’s last meal, should not be translated as sometimes it has been as “truffles”, but rather as tender, ‘maddava’, (flesh or meat) from a boar.......Indeed, DA ii 568, 1.13-14 is quite clear: ‘suukarassa pavatta-ma”msa.m’, meat of a boar available (in the market). DA.T ii 218 further explains: ‘vanavaraahassa muduma”msa’, the soft flesh of a forest boar or wild hog. UdA 399 agrees with DA ii 568 and while ascirbing this interpretation to the Mahaa-a.t.takathaa, also gives different interpretations made by “some”, ‘keci’, and by “others”, ‘a~n~ne’, both of which appear to substantiate RhD’s “truffles”. See also Miln 175 for Gotama’s last meal before the awakening and the last before his parinibbaana.” **************** Metta, Sarah p.s James, I think you raised a very good point. Perhaps we need to look at the Pali with someone’s help. M.Walshe gives this transl which also makes it sound as if the meal was the cause: “having eaten Cunda’s meal (this I’ve heard), He suffered a grave illness, painful, deathly; From eating a meal of ‘pig’s delight’ Grave sickness assailed the Teacher. Having purged, the Lord then said: ‘Now I’ll go to Kusinaaraa town.’” As Nina quoted from the PTS comy: “ “And when he had eaten, because of the pork stew (suukaramaddava)’: It happened to him when he had eaten, but not because he had eaten. If it had happened when he had not eaten, it would have been too painful; but because he had eaten the succulent food, his pain was slight, which i why he was able to walk on foot.” An example, perhaps, of how we never know the conditions at work or what would have happened without certain factors?? ====== 25708 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Self-sacrifice Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, Connie, and all, > > Thanks for your posts. ... (even though Sarah mentioned the V.. > word. :-)) .... OOps! I need a little reminder card next to my computer of ‘pet peeves’ - the V word for you, ‘intrinsic’ for Howard, ‘accumulations’ for Mike (??), ‘reality’ for TG, ‘rupa’ for James, ‘wholesome’ for mums, ‘skilful’ for Dan and so on...... Anyway, as you’re smiling about it now, let me mention that when we were last in Bkk I raised the difficulty of the ‘V’ Jataka for many with K.Sujin and gave some details. Her simple comment was that without the ‘V’ Jataka or lifetime and details as given, none of us would be here discussing the teachings. Metta, Sarah p.s Steve, thx for the SN sutta reference. I understand that only a Bodhisatta would perform these acts with sufficient wisdom. Did you go to the last Cooran weekend? What did you find of interest? ====== 25709 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Larry (& TG), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > If a car is seen as arising then the insight > knowledges apply. If a car is seen as non-arising, insight knowledges > don't apply but the car can't be found and its identity is very tenuous. > This is tantamount to insight knowledge in that it leads to > nonattachment. .... Do you think this is the same kind of insight knowledge or understanding we’re reading about in Vism such as in the ‘penetrating the individual essences of states’ and understanding of nama and rupa? .... >If we avoid saying either "exists" or "doesn't exist" in > either case, the ethical viability of kamma is preserved and we don't > stray into the extremes of nihilism or eternalism. .... ?? ..... > One point I would like to add is that "reality" is actually a > translation of "dhamma". It might be worth considering whether > conventional reality (concept) is less "real" than ultimate reality. > Both realities are ungraspable. ..... On the contrary, I understand both ultimate realities and concepts are very graspable. BUT, concepts only ‘exist’ when cittas think about them as shadows or imaginations. They seem to be real, but if we don’t think about them, they are never experienced. .... > > Also, a question for you and Sarah: in terms of self-view, I was > wondering how abhidhamma, or the suttas, analyze subjectivity when it > manifests as "identifying-with". For example, I can be subjectively > angry or objectively angry. Anger can be an object of consciousness > which is not angry. ..... Anger has its particular characteristics which can be known when it arises (as you say, as object of consciousness immediately following its falling away). Someone may look and sound angry, but only panna can know its exact nature when it arises. For others, it is just thinking about it. ..... >Is lobha, dosa, moha as root consciousness > personality view? ..... There is some controversy about the term personality view. I take it you’re referring to sakkaya-ditthi, translated in Nyantiloka’s dict as personality view? Personality view (sakkaya-ditthi) is always rooted in lobha. BUT, not all lobha-mula-cittas are accompanied by sakkaya-ditthi. Same with conceit. Remember from ADL, that 4 types of lobha-mula-citta arise with wrong views and 4 without? The sotapanna still has the 4 without, inc. conceit which can arise with any of these. Also, moha is a root with all unwholesome cittas. .... >Is "identifying-with" the same as root consciousness? > Is alobha, adosa, amoha as root consciousness personality view? Is sati > personality view? .... I think that ‘identifying-with’ would usually refer to micha- ditthi - a cetasika accompanying the lobha-mula-citta. Only panna can know, however, whether there is ditthi, maana, equanimity, lobha or what state at any given moment. Consciousness rooted in alobha, adosa and amoha cannot be accompanied by unwholesome factors such as sakkaya ditthi. So sati and sakkaya ditthi cannot arise together, but it’s characteristic can be the object of subsequent cittas with sati. Metta, Sarah ===== 25710 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Dear Htoo, I thought the following was a very clear explanation. I was curious (because I don't remember having seen) the part about even pannatti causing the bending of nama. Certainly they are objects of nama and condition nama by arammana-paccaya (object condition). Very helpful. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Nibbana is Nama Dhamma. Citta is Nama Dhamma. Cetasika is Nama > Dhamma. Rupa is Rupa Dhamma. Pannatti is not an ultimate reality. > > Citta arises. It passes away. It takes an object.And it can be taken > as an object.It is Nama Dhamma. It is one of ultimate realities. > > Cetasikas arise. They pass away. They also take an object along with > Citta. They can be taken as objects.They are Nama Dhamma. They are > some of ultimate realities. > > Rupa arise. They pass away. They cannot take any object. But they can > be taken as objects.They are Rupa Dhamma. They also are some of > ultimate realities. > > Nibbana does not arise. Nor does it pass away. It cannot take any > object. But it can be taken as an object. As you said it causes > bending of Citta or Cetasika. So it is Nama Dhamma.It is one of > ultimate realities. > > Panatti does not arise. It does not pass away. It cannot take any > object. It is not an ultimate reality. But it can be taken as an > object. Even though it can cause bending of Nama ( Citta and > Cetasika ) it is not Nama Dhamma ( this may not fit with definition > of Nama ). It is not Rupa Dhamma as well. ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 25711 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Hi LC, Good to see all your fine qus and contributions too;-) --- lokuttaracitta wrote: > Regarding "store-consciousness" or something like that, All I can > say now from my experiences is that " attachement to self " tends to > creep into practioners in a very subtle level and give a kind of > fatal damage to their spritual development as Buddhists once "latent > citta" or " store-consciousness " is assumed as a kind of paramattha > dhamma. .... I agree! .... That is why "authentic" maha-yana traditions including Vajra- > yaha ( Dont feel shocked!) have been interpreting the definition of > such conciousnesses with the utmost care. Theravadin's( Shoud I > say "Buddha's" (^^)? ) stoic attitude toward such a citta should be > highly appreciated. .... Hence it is truth of ‘anatta’ which sets the teachings apart from all others. You asked about ‘paritta’ and you’ll find more detail in UP (glad you find it useful;-)) under paritta or protection. Paritta texts are commonly recited in countries such as Sri Lanka and there are special parita ceremonies, usually recited by bhikkhus in Pali and with other ceremonial passing of thread, pouring of water and so on. Sometimes these may last all night. Typical examples of verses recited are the metta sutta, the mangala sutta, the ratana sutta, the dasadhamma sutta, khandha paritta and many others. You can get a thin book, such as Piyadassi Thera’s “Book of Protection” from BPS or elsewhere (?). Others may know more. Metta, Sarah ===== 25712 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mantras Hi KKT, Thank you for your explanations: --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > > KKT: If I have to condense > > the Teachings in one word, > > it should be << MIND >> .... > KKT: At first glance > Buddhism should be seen > as a path to ease and > to cure human sufferings. > > There are bodily and > mental sufferings. > > Bodily sufferings are > unavoidable but mental > sufferings are optional. > > To cure mental sufferings > a profound knowledge of > the real nature and the > workings of human mind > reveals necessary. > > This is why we study > Abhidhamma here. .... I agree. I'd just add that I think all phenomena need to be known - rupas as well as namas. Without understanding rupas, I doubt it's possible to really understand namas or to distinguish between them. What do you think? I think the Zen understanding - finding the 'real nature' or 'buddha-nature', equated with nibbana as you explain is different. Hence my question about whether the (Theravada) Teachings can be condensed into <>...... How about <>?? Metta, Sarah ===== 25713 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: Advice on Discussion Topics Hello RobM, and all, If I were coming to your lectures, I would be hoping to hear something about the process of bondage - how we become entangled - and about freedom - how we become unentangled or don't get tangled in the first place. And what part 'contact' plays and how it all works. Confused, aren't I ? :-) Or, rather, feeling harassed, obsessed and assailed by the stories my mind spins out, fed by perceptions, likes and dislikes. As you can probably tell, I've been reading the 'The Ball of Honey' MN 18 Madhupindika Sutta "Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye." And I'd also be interested in anything about 'ignorance', what exactly it is, why don't we recognise the extent of it in ourselves, and how we know if we are digging it out. Maybe this is all covered under one of the other headings? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Friends, > > Each Sunday morning, I teach an introductory Abhidhamma class at the > local temple. For the past two years, I have been using the > Abhidhamma as a structure to present Dhamma topics (see my class > notes in the Files section). After my class, another teacher (Bro. > Teo) covers "intermediate Abhidhamma". > > Most of the people in the class have repeated the course at least > twice (through there are some newcomers). I am starting to hear > comments such as, "we've heard this before...", so I want to change > my approach to teaching starting in January (new class). > > Rather than using the Abhidhamma as a jumping off point for Dhamma > topics, I am thinking about using Dhamma topics as jumping off > points for Abhidhamma topics. For example, each week, I would start > with a practical question and then incorporate as much Abhidhamma as > I can in the answer. > > Here is a partial list (in no particular order) of practical > questions that would form the theme of Abhidhamma talks. I seek your > advice / input as to additional questions that I could use as the > basis for Dhamma talks (my emphasis is on PRACTICAL Abhidhamma, I > will leave the theory to Bro. Teo). > 1. What is the Abhidhamma > 2. What happens when I die? > 3. How does kamma work? > 4. What is good and evil? > 5. What are the steps to attain Nibbana? > 6. What is the relationship between Buddhism and Science? > 7. What is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma? > 8. How do I apply anatta in daily life? > 9. How does thinking occur? > 10. What happens when I practice samattha meditation? > 11. What happens when I practice vipassana meditation? > 12. Is there free will? > 13. What is the role of faith in Buddhism? > 14. What is the role of rites and rituals in Buddhism? > 15. What is the Buddhist perspective on life (right view)? > 16. How do I control anger? > 17. How do I control attachment? > 18. How do I cultivate loving-kindness? > 19. How do I cultivate generosity? > 20. What is mindfulness? > 21. What does "dependent origination" mean? > 22. What are the five aggregates? > 23. What are the four noble truths? > 24. What does it mean to take precepts? > 25. How do I cultivate karuna, mudita and upekkha? > > Some of these topics may take two weeks to cover properly, so I am > looking for five to ten more topics so that I have a one year > syllabus. > > Thanks for your input... > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25714 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: six Councils, to Htoo and Suan. Dear Nina (Htoo & Suan). --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Thank you for the information. I read that there were controversies > about > the texts of the sixth council. I do not know details. .... I think this article gives quiet a good and fair summary of the councils - all the details seemed accurate as far as I know. (It doesn't mention the recent controversies you raise.) I've seen more details, but forget where. Others like Christine or Connie might know. Metta, Sarah ===== 25715 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: six Councils, to Htoo and Suan. Dear Nina and all, This is the link for the article I liked that I missed out;-) http://acl.arts.usyd.edu.au/~hudson/buddhism_2.htm Another helpful article with more detail, by Ven Dr Rewatta Dhamma is this one: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/councils.html Metta, Sarah ==== 25716 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina (& James), > > An example, perhaps, of how we never know the conditions at work or what > would have happened without certain factors?? > ====== Hi Sarah, Could you please explain what you mean here? I believe there has to be some agreement on the cause of events or there is no reason to even learn the dhamma. With your posit, the causes for nothing could be determined and nothing could be understood...there would be no reason for the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. Everything would be provisional for each person's determination; in other words, total chaos and anarchy. Metta, James 25717 From: Larry Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:43am Subject: Re: Advice on Discussion Topics Hi Rob, Here's a practical question for discussion: How do we better understand present experience? Another one: What is the result of better understanding present experience? Or: What is failing to understand present experience? And: What is the result of failing to understand present experience? To answer this you could discuss what is understanding (panna), what is involved in understanding, how does understanding work, what is improvement (bhavana), what is involved in improvement, how does it work, what is the relationship between understanding and the fruits of understanding, how does that work, what is not understanding, what are the fruits of not understanding, etc. To begin with, I would like to know how to improve my ability to _identify_ my present experience. I can usually identify large movements like "thinking" or "feeling" but I have trouble finding specific desires, aversions, bewilderments or seeing how recognition occurs, what is involved in that, and the role of concept in present experience. Any thoughts? [How does thinking work?] Larry 25718 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:31am Subject: Re: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 01 ) Dear Rob M, Thanks for your interest. Actually this is an old post round about 10300 Msg. There were few replies on this subject of 5 post. Nina suggested me to post on these subjects as there have been many newcomers in this forum. I must ( MUST ) admit that the idea of the king and ministers is just my thought. I do not know about 'Atthasalini'. I have read a lot. Most are Burmese versions and Pali. I did not recognise 'Atthasalini ' in Burmese version when I read about Cetasikas. But when I got reply letter on this subject, I was really surprised. I remember that post contained ' fortred or something '. Anyway, 1. permanent 2. flexible 3. constructive 4. destructive are my own words, I am sure. But there might be overlapping with ideas already printed. See my inline text reply to your questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > Interesting post. Will this be a series? > > I have inserted some questions / comments. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Everybody has one and the only one mind ( from science point of > > view ). > > ===== > > I'm not sure what you mean here.( Rob M ) > > ===== I mean there is body and mind. So, mind is mind. There is never two minds in a body at the same moment.( Htoo ) ------------------------------------------ > > Actually mind has as army of soldiers ( mental factors ) led > > by the general ( Citta ) or the king or the leader. When citta > works > > like a king, accompanying cetasikas work as ministers. Ministers > > advise the king and the king does all the action. So, for > > everything, the king is responsible. > > > > There are four sets of ministers. > > > > 1.Permanent ministers(Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas) > > 2.Flexible ministers(Pakinnaka Cetasikas) > > 3.Destructive ministers(Akusala Cetasikas) > > 4.Constructive ministers(Kusala Cetasikas) > > > > Cetasikas cannot perceive senses,which is function of citta.But > their > > accompaniment makes the citta different names. So they can be > > conferred designers. Cetasikas help citta, advise citta, drive > citta > > and do have many effects on citta. But citta behaves itself and > > always leads all the mental bodies. > > ===== > > According to CMA, the functions of citta are: > - As an agent, citta is that which cognizes an object > - As an instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying > mental factors cognize the the object > - As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of > cognizing the object > > I suspect that you are taking your "King and retinue" analogy from > Atthasalini (p90). Buddhaghosa used this analogy to stress the > inseparabality of citta and cetasika, but I am concerned that you > are extending the metaphor beyond its intended usage. Specifically, > though citta is the forerunner (only for worldly phenomena - > interesting enough, for transcendental phenomena, understanding is > the forerunner), I am not clear what you mean by, "citta behaves > itself and always leads all the mental bodies." > > ===== > > > The existence of Cetasikas is hard to be aware of if one has not > > learned about it. Mind is made up of Citta and Cetasikas. They > come > > in a series without any interruption. As Citta is the leader, > there > > always is a Citta but they are not the same and each Citta only > lives > > just a moment ( one billionth of a blink ). > > ============================ > > I don't think that it possible to be aware of a cetasika as distinct > from the associated citta? > > This section could be misinterpreted as saying that cetasika follow > citta in a series and that citta is the leader of the series. ( Rob M ) > > =============================== Distinct is that Cetasika each has their own character. I said come in a series. Yes. Citta after Citta and then Citta after Citta. That is series. I didn't mean there is a rail of Citta and Cetasikas where Citta is an engine ( leading car in the trail ) and Cetasikas are following in successive order. I said accompanied. It is something like moving of X-line along Y-axis rather than moving of Y-line along the Y-axis with arrow head at the top, in which the arrow is Citta and line represent all Cetasikas that follow. As X-line is moving all points on the X-line are moving equally. If a Citta arises, at the same time Cetasikas arise. It is these Cetasikas that make Citta named. But as Citta has the chief function of knowing the object or recognition of the object it is called the leader. Leadership is one of the characteristics of Citta. This does not mean, Citta is going first and all Cetasikas are following him. No, not in this way. ( Htoo ) ======================================== > > In a continuous flux of Cittas, each Citta is accompanied by > > different combinations of Cetasikas. It is these Cetasikas that > make > > known Citta with different names. Actually from the view point of > its > > character, there is one and only one Citta. > > > > Citta is pure. It is clean. It is luminous. It is radiant. It is > free > > of sins and free of all Akusala. This is its origionality. But as > > Cetasikas always accompany him, its pureness has gone and there > arise > > different Cittas good and bad. =============================== > Again, I am concerned that one might infer that one could be aware > of a citta as distinct from its concommitant cetasikas. > What do you mean by "from the view point of character"?( Rob M ) ======================================= Here, for example, Dosa is a Cetasika and destruction is its character. Citta itself does not have destructive character. Citta is to know the object. Even though they arise together and cannot be separable, character- wise they are separate entities. So said there are Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana as ultimate realities or Paramattha Sacca. ( Htoo ) ============================================ > > We can strive to obtain Citta to be back into its normality as the > > purest. To do this is to eliminate all Cetasikas. This again seems > to > > be impossible. But there is a possibility that these Cetasikas can > be > > totally stopped if arising of Citta can be stopped. > =========================== > Again, I have a problem with the implication that cetasikas can be > treated as distinct from citta (i.e. eliminated).( Rob M ) ========================= Character-wise, yes.This is contemplation. Citta origionally is pure. We all most of the time do not have Dosa.Right. No one can have Dosa successively moment by moment continuing days, weeks, months, and years.If stay for a long time, we might have died from heart stopping. But all notice that when Dosa comes or arise, Citta becomes ugly, shaking, shocking, quivering, shivering, tremulous. This Dosa can ( CAN ) be eliminated temporarily. But it is impossible to eliminate all Cetasikas. The idea I put was Citta origionally is pure, if no Cetasika,Citta will be pure again. This will happen only when all Cittas stop to arise. No more Citta, no more Cetasikas, then the purest and calmest come as a state called Nibbana. ( Htoo ) ========================== > > Citta arises due to condition. Deconditioning will finally lead to > a > > state when there is no more chance of arising of Citta as at the > time > > after '' Cuticitta of Arahats''. To eliminate Cetasikas needs to > > understand them first. All events and happenings are related to > Citta > > and Cetasikas. So the way of liberation is also connected with > Citta > > and Cetasikas again. =========================== > What is meant by "deconditioning"? > > This could be interpreted as suggesting that parinibbana as the > goal; the Buddha always said that the attainment of nibbana, not > parinibbana was the goal. ( Rob M ) =================================== Deconditioning means removal or eradication of the all causes. You are right. Dead right. Buddhists' goal is Nibbana and not Parinibbana. Nibbana is a separate topic to be discussed later on. ( Htoo ) =================================== > > I salute your effort - I will interested in your feedback on my > comments. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ================================== You are really welcome. But as Christine always says the problem is that you think you have time. Whenever I have got enough time, I will put my effort to help people to be on the right path. I have got some off-line mails. Some talked there are many different ways to Nibbana and so on. But I do not argue on that but I always try to help people. If some resist I do not put them into disasters. There are many sorts of people. The Buddha helped countless Sattas. Still there are many many left. Even in His life time, The Buddha could not put some on the right path like '' Sunakkhatta '' who finally followed Miccha-Ditthi Titthi ( misbeliever ). Ruby always shines even in mud. May all beings have right view on Dhamma. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25719 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:43am Subject: Re: Advice on Discussion Topics Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > If I were coming to your lectures, I would be hoping to hear > something about the process of bondage - how we become entangled - > and about freedom - how we become unentangled or don't get tangled in > the first place. And what part 'contact' plays and how it all works. > Confused, aren't I ? :-) Or, rather, feeling harassed, obsessed and > assailed by the stories my mind spins out, fed by perceptions, likes > and dislikes. As you can probably tell, I've been reading the 'The > Ball of Honey' MN 18 Madhupindika Sutta ===== One of my favourites - I intend to spent some time on this as I explain dependent origination (how we get caught up in samsara and how to get out of it). ===== > And I'd also be interested in anything about 'ignorance', what > exactly it is, why don't we recognise the extent of it in ourselves, > and how we know if we are digging it out. ===== Ignorance would be a major theme of "What is the Buddhist perspective on life (right view)?" Looking forward to more ideas! Metta, Rob M :-) 25720 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:45am Subject: Re: Advice on Discussion Topics Hi Larry, I love it! Great suggestion! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Here's a practical question for discussion: How do we better > understand present experience? Another one: What is the result of > better understanding present experience? Or: What is failing to > understand present experience? And: What is the result of failing to > understand present experience? 25721 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: Advice on Discussion Topics Dear Rob M, Here are good topics. Sue ( suelynnloh ) has onced asked about Moha and Avijja and the discussion was on triplegem forum. 1.Difference between Moha and Avijja 2.Does Akusala co-exist Kusala? 3.Is it possible that Nama exist on their own without any Rupa? 4.Asannasatta Rupa Brahma and where is their Citta? 5.Do Brahma go to Apaya Bhumi directly? 6.How do Arahats use their time before Parinibbana? 7.Is Anicca Anatta or is Dukkha Anatta? Which one is Anatta? 8.What is the object of Arahatta Magga Citta? 9.Are all Tilekkhana seen at the same time? 10.When or where is the distinction between previous life and present life? 11.Can animal reborn at Deva realms? 12. Are there animals at Deva realms ( horse cart driven by Martali )? 13.Are there 4 Rupa Jhana or 5 Rupa jhana? 14. What is Vicara and what is the difference between Vitakka and Vicara? 15.What is Saddha? 16.All Kusala Cittas are accompanied by Saddha. If so, what about non- Buddhists giving their possession as offering to other people or group as charity? 17. Is Miccha-Ditthi Akusala? 18. Are all non-Buddhists commiting Akusala because of their Miccha- Ditthi? 19. What is Samma-Ditthi? Is it Vitakka or anything else? 20.Do Visuddhi Magga come one after another? 21.Are Sotapana free from Akusala? If so, what are possible Akusala in them and compare them with those of Puthujana? 22.Why don't Brahmas have Tadaarmmanacitta? 23.What are Manodvaravithicittas and Visayapavatti? 24.Can Arahats experience Nibbana before Parinibbana? In which way? 25.Why do Dvi-Pancavinnana have only 7 Cetasikas? 26.Do Mana and Dosa arise together? And many more.... May my contribution make you put forward effort searching the right answer and teach the students of Abhidhamma. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Friends, > > Each Sunday morning, I teach an introductory Abhidhamma class at the > local temple. For the past two years, I have been using the > Abhidhamma as a structure to present Dhamma topics (see my class > notes in the Files section). After my class, another teacher (Bro. > Teo) covers "intermediate Abhidhamma". > > Most of the people in the class have repeated the course at least > twice (through there are some newcomers). I am starting to hear > comments such as, "we've heard this before...", so I want to change > my approach to teaching starting in January (new class). > > Rather than using the Abhidhamma as a jumping off point for Dhamma > topics, I am thinking about using Dhamma topics as jumping off > points for Abhidhamma topics. For example, each week, I would start > with a practical question and then incorporate as much Abhidhamma as > I can in the answer. > > Here is a partial list (in no particular order) of practical > questions that would form the theme of Abhidhamma talks. I seek your > advice / input as to additional questions that I could use as the > basis for Dhamma talks (my emphasis is on PRACTICAL Abhidhamma, I > will leave the theory to Bro. Teo). > 1. What is the Abhidhamma > 2. What happens when I die? > 3. How does kamma work? > 4. What is good and evil? > 5. What are the steps to attain Nibbana? > 6. What is the relationship between Buddhism and Science? > 7. What is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma? > 8. How do I apply anatta in daily life? > 9. How does thinking occur? > 10. What happens when I practice samattha meditation? > 11. What happens when I practice vipassana meditation? > 12. Is there free will? > 13. What is the role of faith in Buddhism? > 14. What is the role of rites and rituals in Buddhism? > 15. What is the Buddhist perspective on life (right view)? > 16. How do I control anger? > 17. How do I control attachment? > 18. How do I cultivate loving-kindness? > 19. How do I cultivate generosity? > 20. What is mindfulness? > 21. What does "dependent origination" mean? > 22. What are the five aggregates? > 23. What are the four noble truths? > 24. What does it mean to take precepts? > 25. How do I cultivate karuna, mudita and upekkha? > > Some of these topics may take two weeks to cover properly, so I am > looking for five to ten more topics so that I have a one year > syllabus. > > Thanks for your input... > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25722 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:57am Subject: Re: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 01 ) Hi Htoo, Your clarifications help a lot. Thanks - looking forward to the next in the series! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob M, > > Thanks for your interest. Actually this is an old post round about > 10300 Msg. There were few replies on this subject of 5 post. Nina > suggested me to post on these subjects as there have been many > newcomers in this forum. 25723 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: six Councils, to Htoo and Suan. Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your links about 5th and 6th Buddhists Council. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina and all, > > This is the link for the article I liked that I missed out;-) > http://acl.arts.usyd.edu.au/~hudson/buddhism_2.htm > > Another helpful article with more detail, by Ven Dr Rewatta Dhamma is this > one: > http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/councils.html > > Metta, > > Sarah > ==== 25724 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: Advice on Discussion Topics Hi Htoo, Thanks for the suggestions. Most of the people in the class are parents who have dropped their kids off at Sunday School. Most of them do not open any Abhidhamma text outside of class and most are not keen readers. Your questions are interesting to be sure (some have got me wondering - why doesn't a brahma have registration cittas?). However, I am looking for broad topics that would be of interest to a non-academic Buddhist that allow me to introduce a range of points from the Abhidhamma. One area that is not covered by my questions is rupa. My problem is forming a question (something that others would care about) that involves rupa as a main part of the answer. Any ideas for a "rupa question" or other more broad questions? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob M, > > Here are good topics. > > Sue ( suelynnloh ) has onced asked about Moha and Avijja and the > discussion was on triplegem forum. > > 1.Difference between Moha and Avijja > 2.Does Akusala co-exist Kusala? > 3.Is it possible that Nama exist on their own without any Rupa? > 4.Asannasatta Rupa Brahma and where is their Citta? > 5.Do Brahma go to Apaya Bhumi directly? > 6.How do Arahats use their time before Parinibbana? > 7.Is Anicca Anatta or is Dukkha Anatta? Which one is Anatta? > 8.What is the object of Arahatta Magga Citta? > 9.Are all Tilekkhana seen at the same time? > 10.When or where is the distinction between previous life and present > life? > 11.Can animal reborn at Deva realms? > 12. Are there animals at Deva realms ( horse cart driven by Martali )? > 13.Are there 4 Rupa Jhana or 5 Rupa jhana? > 14. What is Vicara and what is the difference between Vitakka and > Vicara? > 15.What is Saddha? > 16.All Kusala Cittas are accompanied by Saddha. If so, what about non- > Buddhists giving their possession as offering to other people or > group as charity? > 17. Is Miccha-Ditthi Akusala? > 18. Are all non-Buddhists commiting Akusala because of their Miccha- > Ditthi? > 19. What is Samma-Ditthi? Is it Vitakka or anything else? > 20.Do Visuddhi Magga come one after another? > 21.Are Sotapana free from Akusala? If so, what are possible Akusala > in them and compare them with those of Puthujana? > 22.Why don't Brahmas have Tadaarmmanacitta? > 23.What are Manodvaravithicittas and Visayapavatti? > 24.Can Arahats experience Nibbana before Parinibbana? In which way? > 25.Why do Dvi-Pancavinnana have only 7 Cetasikas? > 26.Do Mana and Dosa arise together? 25725 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Dear James, op 29-09-2003 21:15 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: Allow me to quote from the > Mahaparinibbana Sutta: > > 4.20 And after having eaten the meal provided by Cunda, the Lord was > attacked by a severe sickness with bloody diarrhea, and with sharp > pains as if he were about to die. [128] But he endured all this > mindfully and clearly aware, and without complaint. Then the Lord > said: `Ananda, let us go to Kusinara.' `Very good Lord', said Ananda. > Having eaten Cunda's meal (this I've heard), > He suffered a grave illness, painful, deathly; > From eating a meal of `pig's delight' > Grave sickness assailed the Teacher. > Having purged, the Lord then said: > `Now I'll go to Kusinara town' 419 > > And this dhamma issue also goes on to state, "The súkaramaddava > (pig¹s meat) was not poisonous food, but it was delicate food and > when the Buddha had eaten it, it enabled him to walk on foot to the > city of Kusinåra." Huh? It gave him bloody diarrhea and pains as if > he were about to die, I would not call that delicate food. N: I have two sutta translation: the Wheel and BPS, these do not have: bloody diarrhea." Yes, severe pains even unto death. J: Additionally, they got it wrong because the Buddha didn't even make > it to the town of Kusinara. He had to stop twice along the way to > rest from sickness and decided to take his parinibbana just outside > of the town of Kusinara, he didn't make it to the city proper. N: the Co only said: after eating the sukkaramaddava he was able to walk on foot, it is not said: to Kusinara. The food itself was not the condition for the pains, the word condition, paccaya, that is used here in the Pali text of the Co is rather strong. I think the point merely is: thanks to the meal he could at least walk on, even though the pains were very strong and he had to rest many times. The meal was not poison, on the contrary, it was of benefit. J: Frankly, I think the commentaries have it really wrong about this > one. Do you have any input? N: I do not have much input. I hope others have. I read a verse added about the sharp pain even unto death and here is an interesting point about Buddhaghosa's way of editing: in a footnote: Buddhaghosa said: "It should be understood that these are verses by the Theras who held the council." It shows how conscientious he was. In the same Co, about the Four Great References, we read about the ways of checking what is true. The three great Councils are mentioned. "The word of the teacher" means the commentary [established by the 500 monks at the first great council]. This tells us something about the way Buddhaghosa worked. And a few times he mentioned: this is my own opinion. Nina. 25726 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 19 Hi Larry, op 30-09-2003 01:07 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "They can also arise as mahaavipaakacittas, such as rebirth and also > as > retention, tadaaramma.na-cittas." L: Thanks for your replies. In these two cases of root cittas there is no > kamma result, correct? Is that because there is no intention or just > because they only arise once and are too weak to produce kamma? N: They are vipaka, thus, not producing result, they themselves are results. Also sobhana results can be accompanied by roots. L: Also, do you think the word "abhinivisati" refers to javana or some > other kind of process? N: See my other post. You had a question before about rupa impinging on a sense-base and the bhavangastream which is then interrupted so that a process begins. Is there anything else not clear? I partly answered it before. This weekend we shall probably away for a week, I try to finish off work. Nina. 25727 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 0:41pm Subject: Re: Self-sacrifice Hello Connie, You make me smile. :-) And, as far as I can tell, the Simile of the Saw is about the importance of Right Speech using an example of *extreme* duress. "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn21.php I'm sure we are not supposed to just lie there like a roast leg of lamb with a 'Bless you my son" look on our faces, while someone saws pieces from us with a carving knife and fork. Your 'metta' idea might work ... but then, it might not either. Running might be a good idea ... and what's wrong with begging for mercy? Screaming for help could be cathartic and may bring the cavalry ... or maybe the whole gang of bhikkhus suddenly leaping on the bandit delegate (compassionately, and with loving-kindness, of course) could work. After all, it would be saving him from incurring terrible vipaka ... :-) But, then again, I think we will do just what we will do at the time, who can tell ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Thanks, Christine, for the rest of the Vissuddhimagga bandit thing. > > I was going to say that not clinging to self would be Buddhist > self-sacrifice, with the idea that whatever we attain or eradicate is > good for everyone else, too but if there's no self to begin with... > > So, the Skilled one just keeps sitting there extending metta and the > bandit just picks someone? Then, someone starts reciting the Simile of > the Saw. That's the one where it seems like everytime I mention it, > someone says "I don't think we have to be doormats to be good Buddhists" > or something about 'boundary issues' and the conversation kind of stops. > I don't even know what boundary issues means... must be those barriers. > But didn't Sariputta say something about being a doormat, or was it > 'like the earth'? > > Maybe the bandit gets overwhelmed by all the metta and decides these > doormats must know something worth listening to or just gets all frieked > out when no one acts scared and starts thinking "I'd better get out of > here while I still can." > > peace, > connie 25728 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 0:44pm Subject: Re: Self-sacrifice Thanks Steve - clearly a difference in emphasis in Buddhism to that of Christianity. If we don't 'own' a 'self', than there is nothing noble about sacrificing 'one self' for 'another'. I expect the emotions involved in offering to die in the place of someone else are a great mixture of noble and not so noble. No doubt 'attachment' plays a big role. And biology - both animals and humans often seem compelled to die protecting their offspring. (I'm SO glad it's only bodhisattas who have the right to 'relinquish' themselves to lions and tigers.:-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Christine, All > > Christine wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Is self-sacrifice viewed positively in Theravada Buddhism? Does > > Buddhism have an equivalent to the Christian verse, "'Greater love > > has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his > friends."? > > I recall a couple of the Jatakas showing animals giving their lives > > voluntarily to help others - but what of the Suttas? > > I don't know if this helps but I found this verse from the Samyutta > Nikaya, Devatasamyutta 78 > > > Love > "What should he not give who loves the good? > What should a mortal not relinquish? > What should one release when its good, > But not release when its bad?" > > "A person should not give himself away; > He should not relinquish himself. > One should release speech that is good, > But not speech that is bad." > > Commentary > One should not give oneself away by becoming the slave > of another, but an exception is made for all bodhisattas, So too > except for all bodhisattas, one should not relinquish oneself to > lions, tigers, etc. > > Steve 25729 From: Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah Will reply to your full massage on this subject later but wanted to reply to the below statement in your response to Larry. In a message dated 9/30/2003 1:54:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > There is some controversy about the term personality view. I take it > you’re referring to sakkaya-ditthi, translated in Nyantiloka’s dict as > personality view? > > Personality view (sakkaya-ditthi) is always rooted in lobha. BUT, not all > lobha-mula-cittas are accompanied by sakkaya-ditthi. Same with conceit. > Remember from ADL, that 4 types of lobha-mula-citta arise with wrong views > and 4 without? The sotapanna still has the 4 without, inc. conceit which > can arise with any of these. Also, moha is a root with all unwholesome > cittas. > TG: On this very critical and subtle point, you have either misquoted Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, or you have a different version than I have. In my version, Nyanatiloka translates sakkaya-ditthi as "Personality-belief." He proceeds to explain that this "belief" comes about by associating 'the 5 aggregates as 'self' in one of the 4 ways... Nyanatiloka's Dictionary: "There are 20 kinds of Personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of the belief to each of the 5 groups of existence: (1-5) the belief to be identical with corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations or consciousness, (6-10) to be contained in them, (11-15) to be independent of them, (16-20) to be the owner of them." This clearly represents (to me) the gross 'belief-in-self' and not the more subtle 'self-views' or 'sense-of-self' that arises as part of the normal perceptual processes. The above 20 types of "personality-belief" would be those found in people grasping after 'theories of self' such as most other religions and philosophies do. The reason that I (and presumably you) are not streamwinners is because we are still 'subject to those beliefs.' We have not 100% eradicated the possibility that they can arise in the future. TG 25730 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah and all, Some points to share: 1. Seeing yourself as the five aggregates is the self-view. 2. It is you and only you who can eat, for instance, the dimsum (if you do eat them), for yourself, not eating. Eating is not you. Likewise, it is you and only you who can understand, for instance, the Buddha's teaching, for yourself, not panna. And panna is not you. 3. The conditioned can be categorized either as nama or rupa. Excrement is conditioned. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi TG, > > I appreciate your further comments and feedback. I'm not sure if there's > any difference (other than terminology) in what we're saying or not. > > Perhaps you could kindly tell me if you disagree with any of these points > before we go on, to clarify: > > 1. `People' is a conventional term, a pa~n~natti referring to the 5 > aggregates. > > 2. Khandhas repesented by conventional terms such as people and animals > arise and pass away, but the conventional terms are mere designations. > > 3. Namas and rupas can be directly experienced and known by pa~n~na > (wisdom) and associated mental factors. > > 4. There are no `events' - mere elements or phenomena arising and passing > away. (I'm checking because perhaps I mistakenly took `unfolding causal > occurrences' to refer to something more than the latter - apologies if > this was wrong). > > 5. Namas and rupas are `paramattha dhammas' (ultimate > realities/actualities). > > 6. They are such because they have lakkha.na (characteristics) and > sabhaava (intrinsic quality/particular nature) which can be known. > For example, seeing has a characteristic quite different from hearing and > quite different from the object seen. > > 7. These `actualities' are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and > anatta. > > 8. Wrong views are an impediment. Right views are the forerunner of the > other path factors. > > 9. Arahants have no more kilesa (defilements) of any kind. Sotapannas have > eradicated all erroneous self and other views. > > 10. Finally, I forget if you have CMA (or other AbhidamatthaSangaha > transl) or Vism. If so, do you accept > > a) CMA ch V111, Compendium of Conditionality, 30 > > Concept as what is made known > "...such terms as `person', `individual', and the like, so named > [concepts] on account of the five aggregates..................... > All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, > become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) > things. > > They are called concepts because they are thought of, reckoned, > understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, > with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called > because it is made known." > > b) Vism V111,39 > > " `Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; > The highest sense this concept will allow" (Nd 1, 42). > > See detailed footnote 11 (Nanamoli transl) which details all the kinds of > concepts. > ***** > > TG, again, I greatly appreciate your well-considered comments. Pls let me > know if I have over-looked any points (I'm in a bit of a rush) and which > of the comments above you disagree with (if any;-)). > > With metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > > "Personality view" has to do with whether there is a view that there is > > a > > self, soul, controler, agent, entity, etc., that persists apart from > > mere > > conditions. Since such a condition does not exist, personality- view is > > an incorrect > > view. However, as you point out next, nama and rupas do exist...and > > yes...people are made up of nama and rupas. Therefore...people exist > > based on that. > > People = The 5 Aggregates, and the 12 Fold Chain indicates the > > systematic > > dynamics that power them. I don't think that personality-view, > > self-view, > > identity-view, or whatever term suits you, has anything to do with > > whether or not > > people exist. > > > > The conditions that generate what we call a person do occur. People and > > > > animals and plants actually do arise. There is just no self that arises > > along > > with those conditions. > [....] > 25731 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:43pm Subject: nama or rupa? Hi all, I have a question: Is exrement nama or is it rupa? Peace, Victor 25732 From: Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, My view on concept and reality is that it doesn't make any difference whether we analyze a belief in a self as a nonarising concept or as an arising phenomenon. If we analyze correctly the result is the same: enlightenment. A concept cannot be found anywhere and an impermanence also cannot be found anywhere. A concept or impermanence can be desired but neither can be permanently held, i.e., grasped. The trick is to not stray into extreme views of eternalism or nihilism. These are equivalent to asserting concepts exist or don't exist; or asserting impermanences exist or don't exist. A middle way is necessary in order to see the ethical consequences of kamma without reifying a self. As far as I know there is no official insight knowledge that recognizes and understands concepts but this knowledge must be assumed in order to say anything about concept and reality. So, at most, perhaps we could say it is implicit. Whatever it is, we have to figure it out for ourselves. The ancient commentators, post-Buddhaghosa, began to develop it*, as did Mahayana commentators, but there is no consensus view on concept. My point is it doesn't matter what view you take if it results in letting go of obsessions. If you think a car is a phenomenon you can look at its impermanence. If you think a car is a concept you can look at its nonarising, unfindable aspect. Either way, there is nothing to hold on to. But cars crash, ruin the environment, and take you to the store; so there is your kamma. What I was wondering about self view and experience is why does anger as root consciousness running through javana seem like "me"? Larry ps: *An interesting essay on concept in Theravada is Warder's "The Concept of Concept" in the Journal of Indian Philosophy, published several years ago. It is only about 15 pages and would make a good addition to the files section. If you are interested you might be able to get permission to copy it there. Otherwise,you might be able to find it in a university library. 25733 From: Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 19 Hi Nina, No more questions for now. If anything comes up, I'll ask when you get back. Larry 25734 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi Sarah, Thanks again for your responses and thanks also for the many interesting quotes you provided. What I'm looking for in particular is a sutta reference where the Buddha clearly lays down the five precepts for lay people to follow in a way similar to the laying down of the ten precepts for samaneras in the Vinaya Mahavagga. But now I'm about to cut away from list discussions for a few months so there's no need for a response now. Best wishes, Jim > Hi again Jim & all on this thread, > > Three posts in one day to you.....comments only *if* anyone wishes;-) > I'm just adding more quotes which may be relevant. > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi again, > > > > I was interested in seeing if I could find any passages where the > > Buddha explicitly refers to the five as training-precepts > > (sikkhaapadaani) and found one at AN IX.20 (Velaama Sutta) in a > > dialogue with Anathapindaka: > > > ***** > Also: > Dispeller, 14Classification of the Training Precepts, 1905 > > 1905 "Now in the classification of the Training Preepts next to that, > pa~nca (five) is the division by number. Sikkhaapadaani (training > precepts): precepts to be trained in; 'portions of training' is the > meaning. Furthermore, all the profitable states handed down above [S: in > earlier sections] are trainings (sikkhaa) because they should be trained > in.. but any factor among the five factors of virtuous conduct is a basis > (pada) for those trainings in the sense of foundation; thus because of > being the bases for trainings (sikkhaana.m padattaa), they are precepts > (bases) of training....... 25735 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, Thanks for your correction and earlier message. No need to apologize. I'm afraid I don't have enough time to respond as I'm getting ready to leave tomorrow but will consider what you have written and maybe get back to you on these matters in a few months time. I have uploaded a new Pali text file (zvism14.txt) to the files section of DSG. This one replaces the first one (now deleted) and contains the entire Chapter XIV of the Visuddhimagga with ~Naa.namoli's numbering system. Best wishes, Jim > Jim > > A hasty correction, and apology. > > Your comment below about samatha not being limited to cittas > associated-with-knowledge is of course correct, metta being but one > example (as I mentioned in my subsequent post to Larry). > > My answer was directed to samatha bhavana that leads to jhaana. > Since all jhaana cittas are associated-with-knowledge, then the > cittas by which that is developed must also be > associated-with-knowledge, as I understand it. > > But that wasn't the context of your comment, I know. > > Sorry for the confusion. > > Jon 25736 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Re: nama or rupa? Hi Victor, Nama is consciousness / mental states. Excrement is clearly rupa; rupa born of temperature. I am curious - what prompted such a question? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > I have a question: > > Is exrement nama or is it rupa? 25737 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:59pm Subject: Re: nama or rupa? Hi Rob, I am curious as well. I thought maybe some would say excrement is concept. Now, is excrement paramatha dhamma, the ultimate reality?? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Nama is consciousness / mental states. > > Excrement is clearly rupa; rupa born of temperature. > > I am curious - what prompted such a question? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > I have a question: > > > > Is exrement nama or is it rupa? 25738 From: Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Hi, Victor (and Rob) - In a message dated 9/30/03 9:00:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Rob, > > I am curious as well. I thought maybe some would say excrement is > concept. > > Now, is excrement paramatha dhamma, the ultimate reality?? > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > >Hi Victor, > > > >Nama is consciousness / mental states. > > > >Excrement is clearly rupa; rupa born of temperature. > > > >I am curious - what prompted such a question? > > > >Metta, > >Rob M :-) > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > wrote: > >>I have a question: > >> > >>Is exrement nama or is it rupa? > > > > ============================= My answer is the following: All the *characteristics* of this supposed substance you inquire about, including its odor, texture, solidity, color, etc are rupas that are experienced, typically in close temporal proximity to each other. The *idea* (or *concept*) of a single thing/entity/substance serving as substrate for such properties, and produced in a particular manner, and called "excrement", is a nama - I view concepts as namas, and the alleged *thing/entity/substance*, itself, which that idea/concept purports to point to is not anything at all that is ever experienced, but is a mere designation - it is pa~n~natti. That is my take on the issue. BTW, I also wonder why you chose that particular notion instead of, for example, water, or lemons, or fingernails, or paper. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25739 From: m. nease Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Friends, Sorry to drop in like this--of course, excrement is pa.n.natti. mn p.s. For practical purposes, pa.n.natti is excrement, too. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? > Hi, Victor (and Rob) - > > In a message dated 9/30/03 9:00:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > I am curious as well. I thought maybe some would say excrement is > > concept. > > > > Now, is excrement paramatha dhamma, the ultimate reality?? > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > > wrote: > > >Hi Victor, > > > > > >Nama is consciousness / mental states. > > > > > >Excrement is clearly rupa; rupa born of temperature. > > > > > >I am curious - what prompted such a question? > > > > > >Metta, > > >Rob M :-) > > > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > > wrote: > > >>I have a question: > > >> > > >>Is exrement nama or is it rupa? > > > > > > > > > ============================= > My answer is the following: All the *characteristics* of this supposed > substance you inquire about, including its odor, texture, solidity, color, > etc are rupas that are experienced, typically in close temporal proximity to > each other. The *idea* (or *concept*) of a single thing/entity/substance serving > as substrate for such properties, and produced in a particular manner, and > called "excrement", is a nama - I view concepts as namas, and the alleged > *thing/entity/substance*, itself, which that idea/concept purports to point to is not > anything at all that is ever experienced, but is a mere designation - it is > pa~n~natti. That is my take on the issue. > BTW, I also wonder why you chose that particular notion instead of, > for example, water, or lemons, or fingernails, or paper. 25740 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Hi Howard, I am not asking whether the odor, texture, solidity, or color of excrement is nama or rupa. Neither am I asking whether the concept of excrement is nama or rupa. My question was: Is excrement nama or rupa? Rob gave a straightforward answer that excrement is rupa. Excrement is what we have to deal with from time to time, if not daily. Now, is excrement the ultimate reality? Peace, Victor [snip] > My answer is the following: All the *characteristics* of this supposed > substance you inquire about, including its odor, texture, solidity, color, > etc are rupas that are experienced, typically in close temporal proximity to > each other. The *idea* (or *concept*) of a single thing/entity/substance serving > as substrate for such properties, and produced in a particular manner, and > called "excrement", is a nama - I view concepts as namas, and the alleged > *thing/entity/substance*, itself, which that idea/concept purports to point to is not > anything at all that is ever experienced, but is a mere designation - it is > pa~n~natti. That is my take on the issue. > BTW, I also wonder why you chose that particular notion instead of, > for example, water, or lemons, or fingernails, or paper. > > With metta, > Howard 25741 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Hi mn, Really?? Excrement is idea, concept?? And idea, concept is excrement?? Where does that idea, concept come from?? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Friends, > > Sorry to drop in like this--of course, excrement is pa.n.natti. > > mn > > p.s. For practical purposes, pa.n.natti is excrement, too. 25742 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Hi Victor (and all); It would be a travesty if we allowed this to degenerate into an issue of semantics. I believe that we are all in agreement that excrement is: - a very large number of kalapas (groups of rupas; rupas are paramattha dhammas, kalapas are not) - a name (concept / pannatii) Metta, Rob M :-) 25743 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mantras Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi KKT, < snip > How about <>?? KKT: A very good << one-word >> mantra. KKT 25744 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Hi Rob, So excrement is a very large number of groups of rupas, a very large number of groups of ultimate realities/paramattha dhammas?? But at the same time excrement is a concept?? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor (and all); > > It would be a travesty if we allowed this to degenerate into an > issue of semantics. I believe that we are all in agreement that > excrement is: > - a very large number of kalapas (groups of rupas; rupas are > paramattha dhammas, kalapas are not) > - a name (concept / pannatii) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25745 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sarah and Nina, Thank you Sarah for directing me to the entry in the Dict of Pali Proper Names and to a post of yours. Nina, I am seeing some benefit in keeping a notebook and taking notes, so I will probably start taking one to the Sat. discussions.:-) Sarah, though I do not have the accumulations to book study, I think that it is very useful and I hope that the regular reading of posts on dsg, will condition some effort in the future, to take a more serious approach to the Texts. Of course at this stage, the best thing for me is listening to K. Sujin. She makes everything so clear, using daily life as example to express what I would otherwise not be able to directly understand if I were to read the original texts alone. But even this I do relatively little, especially when I compare to many people in Thailand, who make the effort to get up very early to listen to her radio programs. I think there are many, many conditions involved in deciding how at any given moment there will be any understanding, be it of the intellectual or practice level. This is one reason why I think, that any real appreciation of the Buddha's teachings *must* be a natural and daily life, without any thought of time, place and idea of formal practice coming in the way to distort the perception. We are who we are, conditioned to be this way from the infinite past. Only maggacitta arising for the first time at the level of Sotapanna, makes any 'real' difference to our outlook, conditioning any radical change of mental, verbal and bodily behavior. But even a Sotapanna is not rid of the attachments to sense pleasure and still basically lives her life as she did before enlightenment with regard to day to day activities. This I believe is because she cannot decide to do otherwise! Conditions are at work beyond her control as much as it is for all of us. So I believe that for us putthujanas, it would be a mistake not to take this into consideration. How can one expect to be without greed, aversion and ignorance after just hearing some words of the Buddha? Only wrong thinking and wrong view I believe will lead one to the idea that there are certain modes of behavior more conducive to understanding. Only *thinking* can get in the way of understanding the present moment. And the beauty about the Buddha's teachings is that even this 'thinking' is conditioned and can be known!! When, where, how are just concepts, behind which is the process of 'thinking'. Better to know this than to be taken by the ideas themselves. However, not all thinking is useless. There are some wholesome reflections and not all thinking point to 'wrong practice'. Some are kusala, as in metta, dana, karuna etc. The kind of thinking which I find particularly harmful, is one that leads one to believe in the idea of better, time, place and even mental make up for the development of panna. What many may not realize is that all this instead of leading to more detachment and appreciation of Anatta, may lead to a greater attachment to self and wrong view. Of course, there are many conditions at work, to decide which direction events will flow and I certainly can't single out one factor and say whether someone is at any moment moving in the right direction or not. But I think Right View and the ability to distinguish between concept and reality is of primary importance! I've already said too much. Didn't intend to write all this, but conditions...!! I don't want to be in the position where I have to respond to a whole lot of objections coming from many people. :-( I'll end here. With metta, Sukin. > ..... > I also wrote a little more about it in this post (to Howard) which might > be useful: > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m21006.html > > For more details, also see this entry from Dict of Pali Proper Names: > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/c/cuula_panthaka_th.htm > ..... 25746 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin and all, Is excrement a concept or reality? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: [snip] > moment moving in the right direction or not. But I think Right View and > the ability to distinguish between concept and reality is of primary > importance! [snip] > With metta, > Sukin. 25747 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Ken H --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > My assumption was that the > possibility for akusala action would have be one that arose > against the actor's wishes. After all, a criminal who > breaks into a house and then changes his mind about > murdering the inhabitants can hardly expect to be treated > as a hero. > > But maybe he is, at the moment of changing his mind, > making a supreme effort. By comparison, most law-abiding > citizens are simply doing what comes naturally -- nothing > difficult or heroic at all. Yes, I agree. What you've just said highlights the fact that the greater an individual's accumulated tendencies for wholesome action, the less opportunity/need there will be for restraint on his part (all other things being equal). And of course, those developed wholesome accumulated tendencies will include the accumulated tendency for restraint, so should the need arise he will be relatively better equipped to avoid wrong action anyway. As you say, the person is doing what comes naturally, in the sense that relatively less effort is required for his/her conduct to remain virtuous. ... > The criminal, resisting his own homicidal urges, is, in > his way, living the good life -- doing what still needs > to be done. Whereas the law-abiding citizen, sitting > harmlessly in front of television, might be 'living on > stale fare' (as I think it is called in one of the > suttas) -- complacently living off good kamma > accumulated in previous lifetimes. Yes. The person who is 'sitting harmlessly doing [whatever/nothing]' could in fact be doing so with rather a lot of akusala (wrong view, for example). Or just with 'everyday' akusala (which, as you know, is not considered 'harmful' in terms of the potential for development of the path). Or with some kusala moments, if his/her accumulated tendencies are such. The person could equally be someone who is living a 'smart' lifestyle (like with the snails). Again, there could be akusala of varying degrees or some moments of kusala, depending on the accumulated tendencies. But in either case, unless there is the effort for kusala at the level of satipatthana, then any relatively 'safe' situation will be very short-lived. In this regard we are indeed fortunate that it requires no more than just a basic level of understanding about the underlying dhammas to make some progress in this lifetime towards eventual release from the cycle. Thanks for the opportunity to reflect on this. Jon 25748 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mantras Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi KKT, < snip > I agree. I'd just add that I think all phenomena need to be known - rupas as well as namas. Without understanding rupas, I doubt it's possible to really understand namas or to distinguish between them. What do you think? KKT: I'm intrigued by this phrase << Without understanding rupas, I doubt it's possible to really understand namas >> Could you elaborate, Sarah? But don't hurry up, take your time. Thanks, Sarah. KKT 25749 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Everything you wrote seems alright to me. Just to make sure we are on the same page here, are you quite comfortable with the idea of samatha as a form of kusala (mental) action that occurs naturally in ordinary daily life, that is to say, quite apart from any notion of 'developing samatha'? This is fairly key to everything that follows. I think it's useful to consider aspects of daily life that do or could involve instances of this kind of kusala (i.e., samatha). Perhaps you wouldn't mind suggesting 1 or 2 yourself (real or hypothetical). Others may also be interested to ponder on this. Jon PS 1. > The question about the > tranquility of a murderer refers to feelings of tranquility which > may > arise while intending, committing, or resulting from the commission > of > an akusala act. Is this tranquility kusala or akusala? Howard only > mentioned this in passing and I don't know if anyone responded; the > reference was to Jeffrey Dahmer, a famous murderer in the U.S. If we are talking about an observable 'calmness', that may be indicative of a level of concentration which, as we have discussed, is a skill that can be developed in akusala mode (and more easily of course than it can in kusala mode). In other words, there need not be any kusala involved. PS. 2 > Since we are discussing kusala I might ask what is so wholesome > about understanding (panna) the arising and passing of dhammas? > Scientists and gamblers do this all the time. Sorry, I'm not quite with you here. Do you mean of a *presently arisen* dhamma? Would you mind clarifying in what sense you see this as being so. Thanks. 25750 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, :-) Concept! Metta, Sukin ----- Original Message ----- From: "yu_zhonghao" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:10 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. > Hi Sukin and all, > > Is excrement a concept or reality? > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" > wrote: > [snip] > > moment moving in the right direction or not. But I think Right > View and > > the ability to distinguish between concept and reality is of > primary > > importance! > [snip] > > With metta, > > Sukin. 25751 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim Many thanks for the work done on the Vism Pali text and for uploading it to the 'Files' section. Much appreciated! Looking forward to hearing again from you after your period off. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for your correction and earlier message. No need to > apologize. > I'm afraid I don't have enough time to respond as I'm getting ready > to > leave tomorrow but will consider what you have written and maybe > get back to you on these matters in a few months time. > > I have uploaded a new Pali text file (zvism14.txt) to the files > section of DSG. This one replaces the first one (now deleted) and > contains the entire Chapter XIV of the Visuddhimagga with > ~Naa.namoli's numbering system. > > Best wishes, > Jim 25752 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 1:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, So excrement is concept?? Really?? Where does that concept come from?? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > :-) > Concept! > > Metta, > Sukin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "yu_zhonghao" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:10 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. > > > > Hi Sukin and all, > > > > Is excrement a concept or reality? > > > > Peace, > > Victor 25753 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, > So excrement is concept?? Really?? Where does that concept come > from?? From thinking *about*, what is seen, smelt,...touched...:-(. Metta, Sukin 25754 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 2:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hello Victor and Sukin, I'm glad you are having this strange conversation about excrement - I was wondering what exactly a concept is and found the UP on this subject a bit beyond me. Is there a definition of what concept means in Abhidhammat? Buddhadatta says concept is sankappa, which is a synonym for vitakka. 1. sankappa is 'thought' 2 vitakka is 'thought' or 'thought conception' And the english dictionary gives the meanings of concept as: 1. A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences. 2. Something formed in the mind; a thought or notion. From what Sukin says, I understand a concept to be a a 'named whole', made up of (in the case of excrement) the paramattha dhammas colour, smell and softness/hardness. Close or not close?? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > So excrement is concept?? Really?? Where does that concept come > > from?? > > From thinking *about*, what is seen, smelt,...touched...:-(. > > Metta, > Sukin 25755 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 3:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I'm glad you are having this strange conversation about excrement - I > was wondering what exactly a concept is and found the UP on this > subject a bit beyond me. Is there a definition of what concept > means in Abhidhammat? The sense-door citta process takes rupa as object. Following the sense-door citta process, there are a few bhavanga cittas and then a mind-door citta process that takes the same rupa as object. After a few more bhavanga cittas, another mind-door citta process takes place that takes a concept as an object. A concept is an object of a mind-door process. Even before the activity of naming takes place, a concept arises. The pattern is something like this: - reproduce object at sense door (rupa as object) - Construction of the whole picture (concept as object) - Perception of colour (concept as object) - Conception of shape (concept as object) - Designation as flower (concept as object) - Judgement as rose (concept as object) - Classification as red rose (concept as object) You mentioned that you have been reading the Honeyball Sutta. Consider the following: Part I ====== "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." Part I lists the purely objective natural reaction occurring as part of the seeing process (Naturally arising phenomena). Part II ======= "What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates." Part II shows how, based on feeling, one reacts to the natural process of seeing (One's reaction to naturally arising phenomena). Part III ======== "With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." Part III gives the impact of our reaction. We take the "ultimate reality" (things as they truly are) and obscure it with added layers of concepts to create what we think is reality (papanaca - conceptual proliferation). Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 25756 From: Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Hi, Victor - In a message dated 9/30/03 10:14:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I am not asking whether the odor, texture, solidity, or color of > excrement is nama or rupa. > > Neither am I asking whether the concept of excrement is nama or > rupa. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: As part of a complete and proper answer and explanation as I wished to give it, regardless of exactly how you framed your question and what sort of answer is satisfying to you, I dealt with the foregoing issues of what is rupa and what is nama with regard to this. I *also* said that "the alleged *thing/entity/substance*, itself, which that idea/concept purports to point to [i.e., your intended referent of the word 'excrement'] is not anything at all that is ever experienced, but is a mere designation - it is pa~n~natti." I did not literally say "excrement is pa~n~natti," because, in this context I wanted to speak precisely, and not informally. To have said "excrement is pa~n~natti" would by the very means of applying an adjective to a noun implied the existence of a thing named by that noun. I wanted to avoid a statement of the same sort as "the self is the five khandhas" or "the self is not the five khnadhas". To speak of something and ascribe properties to it without even circumscribing ones words is to imply the existence of such an entity. You evidently wanted a slogan-type answer such as "excrement is rupa" or "... is nama" or "... is pa~n~natti". I didn't choose to frame my response in such terms. ----------------------------------------------------- > > My question was: > > Is excrement nama or rupa? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I answered the question as truthfully as I could, without accepting the presumption of existence in the question. I did the best I could in answering a question of the sort: "Have you stopped beating your wife - yes or no?" ------------------------------------------------------- > > Rob gave a straightforward answer that excrement is rupa. > > Excrement is what we have to deal with from time to time, if not > daily. > > Now, is excrement the ultimate reality? > > Peace, > Victor > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25757 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 7:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Self-sacrifice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, > Connie, and all, > > > > Thanks for your posts. ... (even though Sarah mentioned the V.. > > word. :-)) > .... > OOps! I need a little reminder card next to my computer of `pet peeves' - > the V word for you, `intrinsic' for Howard, `accumulations' for Mike (??), > `reality' for TG, `rupa' for James, Hi Sarah! LOL! Too true! ;-) Metta, James 25758 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 9:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Hi Howard and all, What presumption of existence about excrement are you talking about?? Are you saying that excrement does not exist?? If excrement does not exist, then what does one go to the toilet for? What is that alleged thing/substance/entity?? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - [snip] 25759 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, So excrement come from thinking about what is seen, smelt, touched...?? What is it that is seen, smelt, touched?? Is this what is been seen, smelt, and touched reality or concept? Does concept comes in solid or liquid form? Does concept gives off a smell? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > So excrement is concept?? Really?? Where does that concept come > > from?? > > From thinking *about*, what is seen, smelt,...touched...:-(. > > Metta, > Sukin 25760 From: Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama or rupa? Hi, Victor - In a message dated 10/1/03 12:15:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > What presumption of existence about excrement are you talking > about?? Are you saying that excrement does not exist?? If > excrement does not exist, then what does one go to the toilet for? > > What is that alleged thing/substance/entity?? > > Peace, > Victor > ============================ I can't be any clearer about this Victor. I'm surprised you don't get my position by this time, but, then, I've never completely grasped yours either. I guess we'll have to leave it at that. (A self-serving slogan for each of us would, of course, be "I don't have a position," but I don't believe that. I know I still have opinions, held tentatively and lightly, I hope! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25761 From: nidive Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor & all, The smell of excrement is reality. The sight of excrement is reality. The taste of excrement is reality. The touch of excrement is reality. The sound of excrement is reality. Caged in the Prison of the Five Senses, to ask if excrement is a reality or not, that is beyond sanity. Regards, Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Sukin and all, > > Is excrement a concept or reality? > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" > wrote: > [snip] > > moment moving in the right direction or not. But I think Right > View and > > the ability to distinguish between concept and reality is of > primary > > importance! > [snip] > > With metta, > > Sukin. 25762 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 10:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin and all, I am not sure if excrement is from thinking about what is seen, smelt, touched... However, I do know that excrement is waste matter discharged from the body; especially waste (as feces) discharged from the alimentary canal.* In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha taught that to remain focus on the body in and of itself, "a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'" ** This is how I see it: This body, with all kinds of unclean things, feces, urine, pus, etc internally or externally, is the "ultimate reality" to be reflected on. I am not sure how excrement, the feces, the urine, is concept and can be thought out. I would rather and usually go to the bathroom and discharge them in the toilet. Peace, Victor * http://www.webster.com ** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > So excrement is concept?? Really?? Where does that concept come > > from?? > > From thinking *about*, what is seen, smelt,...touched...:-(. > > Metta, > Sukin 25763 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Swee Boon, What is excrement then?? So excrement is neither reality nor concept? If so, how is the smell of something that is neither reality nor concept a reality? Likewise for sight, taste, touch, and sound. If excrement is concept, then how is the smell of concept reality? Likewise for sight, taste, touch, and sound. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Victor & all, > > The smell of excrement is reality. > The sight of excrement is reality. > The taste of excrement is reality. > The touch of excrement is reality. > The sound of excrement is reality. > > Caged in the Prison of the Five Senses, to ask if excrement is a > reality or not, that is beyond sanity. > > Regards, > Swee Boon 25764 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 0:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hello RobM, Yes, I get it.:-) At least for the moment. Thanks for the clear straightforward explanation. Retaining the understanding is another matter. I wonder if there is such a thing as Dhamma-alzheimers? metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > > A concept is an object of a mind-door process. Even before the > activity of naming takes place, a concept arises. The pattern is > something like this: > - reproduce object at sense door (rupa as object) > - Construction of the whole picture (concept as object) > - Perception of colour (concept as object) > - Conception of shape (concept as object) > - Designation as flower (concept as object) > - Judgement as rose (concept as object) > - Classification as red rose (concept as object) > > Does this help? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25765 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 2:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Yes, I get it.:-) At least for the moment. Thanks for the clear > straightforward explanation. Retaining the understanding is another > matter. I wonder if there is such a thing as Dhamma-alzheimers? A woman is standing on one side of a large creek wanting to get to the other side. She stands there psyching herself up, "I can do it!" - this state of mind is not deep-rooted and easily forgotten. While she is standing there, a man arrives. He takes a few steps back, runs and jumps over the creek. The woman's state of mind is now, "I know it can be done. I have seen it done". This state of mind is firmly rooted and not easily forgotten. After a while, she makes the effort herself and jumps over the stream. Her mind is now, "I have experienced it." This state of mind is impossible to uproot because it is now "part of her". In other words, things memorized and theorized can be forgotten easily whereas things experienced become part of you. Look at your own mental states. Is it not clear that what you take for reality is in fact constantly changing. One day, you see a friend and a pleasant feeling arises. Later in the day, you hear that this friend was saying nasty things about you behind your back. The next day, you see the same friend and an unpleasant feeling arises. It is the same visible object (one day apart), but you "see" it differently. Is it not clear that your own perceptions of what is real are in fact deeply coloured by your own mental proliferations: Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. When observed in this manner, is it not clear that concepts (non- ultimate realities) are what we take as real after the mind starts working on them? Metta, Rob M :-) 25766 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Victor & all, > > The smell of excrement is reality. > The sight of excrement is reality. > The taste of excrement is reality. > The touch of excrement is reality. > The sound of excrement is reality. > > Caged in the Prison of the Five Senses, to ask if excrement is a > reality or not, that is beyond sanity. ..... Very good to see you around again;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 25767 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 3:06pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 17-21 for comment Do People Really Exist? Slide Contents ============== M: By what name shall I know you, Sir? N: My companions call me Nâgasena. But the name and the person to whom the name refers do not really exist. M: If Nâgasena and the person do not exist, to whom do people offer alms and who receives these offerings? Since you receive them, you really exist. N: Your Majesty, did you come to this monastery on foot or by chariot? M: I came by chariot. N: Well then, what is a chariot? Is the horse the chariot? Is the wheel the chariot? Is the axle the chariot? Is the carriage the chariot? M: I must answer "No" to all of your questions. N: Is there a thing called chariot beside the horse, the wheel, the axle, the carriage, etc.? M: There is no chariot beside the horse, the wheels, the axle and the carriage. Just a combination of these things has been named a chariot. N: Very well, your Majesty, you should understand Nâgasena as you understood the chariot. Speaker Notes ============= "The Questions of King Milinda" was written in the first century BC. The book takes the form of questions from a philosopher king, King Milinda, to a Buddhist monk, Nâgasena. King Milinda was based on King Menander, a famous historical figure. King Menander was a Greek who ruled Bactria (present day Afghanistan) between 150 - 110 BC, about 200 years after Alexander the Great conquered the area. The Bactrians later became Buddhist. In fact, it is in Bactaria that the first statues of the Buddha (obviously with a Greek influence) were created in the first century AD. Prior to this, the Buddha was represented by footprints, an empty throne or a stupa. The dialogue above takes place when they first meet and illustrates the idea that concepts do not ultimately exist and apparent realities can be broken into ultimate realities. According to the Visuddhi Magga (Path of Purification), "… So in many hundred Suttas there is only mentality-materiality which is illustrated, not a being, not a person. Therefore, just as when the component parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles… are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the mere conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate sense, when each part is examined, there is no chariot… so too, when there are the five khandhas of clinging there comes to be the mere conventional term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption 'I am' or 'I'; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision." 25768 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 17-21 for comment Hi Rob, The view that "there are no people" is a wrong view. The view that a being is composed of the five aggregates is a wrong view. There are beings in the world. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Do People Really Exist? 25769 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 17-21 for comment Hi Rob, I think these passages are relevant: "And what is aging and death, what is the origin of aging and death, what is the cessation of aging and death, what is the way leading to the cessation of aging and death? The aging of beings in the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, grayness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties -- this is called aging. The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body -- this is called death." "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact -- this is called birth." "And what is being, what is the origin of being, what is the cessation of being, what is the way leading to the cessation of being? There are these three kinds of being: sense-sphere being, fine-material being and immaterial being." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html Visuddhi Magga is to be read with a grain of salt. Peace, Victor [snip] > > According to the Visuddhi Magga (Path of Purification), "… So in > many hundred Suttas there is only mentality-materiality which is > illustrated, not a being, not a person. Therefore, just as when the > component parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles… > are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the mere > conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate sense, when each > part is examined, there is no chariot… so too, when there are the > five khandhas of clinging there comes to be the mere conventional > term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each > component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the > assumption 'I am' or 'I'; in the ultimate sense there is only > mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is > called correct vision." 25770 From: Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I am comfortable with the idea that tranquility arises in daily life but I am not so sure it is always wholesome. The most obvious example would be sleep. Another example would be the tranquility that arises with satisfaction on completing an intended activity: having washed the dishes, I briefly feel relaxed (tranquil) and satisfied. I don't know where you are going with this argument but I wonder if we need to define "wholesome". Perhaps we would need two definitions: one conventional and another buddhistic. Also, I don't see tranquility as being particularly associated with concentration. The idea of concentration being EXclusive rather than INclusive lends itself to buddhist ideas of less is better and none is best. Nibbana is peace and tranquility is a measure of peace. Concentration seems to be a way of maximizing peace by minimizing hindrances and ultimately, path factors. Understanding (panna) seems to be a way of making a radical change in one's orientation (the so called "change of lineage" consciousness) that permanently eliminates the hindrances. This amounts to the peace of nibbana but not necessarily the peace of concentration, which seems to be something of a speciality item not on everyone's menu. Maybe the reason the Buddha so often recommended the peace of concentration is because it was something people could do and also no one is really convinced that nibbana is desirable, so this is a way of demonstrating the benefits of peace. Why do you think samma samadhi is part of the 8-fold path? Larry -------------------- Jon: "Just to make sure we are on the same page here, are you quite comfortable with the idea of samatha as a form of kusala (mental) action that occurs naturally in ordinary daily life, that is to say, quite apart from any notion of 'developing samatha'? This is fairly key to everything that follows. I think it's useful to consider aspects of daily life that do or could involve instances of this kind of kusala (i.e., samatha). Perhaps you wouldn't mind suggesting 1 or 2 yourself (real or hypothetical). Others may also be interested to ponder on this." 25771 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 6:03pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 17-21 for comment Hi Victor, In your previous post, you stated, "The view that "there are no people" is a wrong view. The view that a being is composed of the five aggregates is a wrong view. There are beings in the world." I was going to ask you for sources to support this position and you appeared to read my mind and sent the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > "And what is aging and death, what is the origin of aging and death, > what is the cessation of aging and death, what is the way leading to > the cessation of aging and death? The aging of beings in the various > orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, grayness of > hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties -- > this is called aging. The passing of beings out of the various > orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, > dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying > down of the body -- this is called death." > > "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the > cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of > birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their > coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, > manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact -- > this is called birth." > > "And what is being, what is the origin of being, what is the > cessation of being, what is the way leading to the cessation of > being? There are these three kinds of being: sense-sphere being, > fine-material being and immaterial being." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html Victor, you then took exception to the Visuddhi Magga quote below: > > According to the Visuddhi Magga (Path of Purification), "… So in > > many hundred Suttas there is only mentality-materiality which is > > illustrated, not a being, not a person. Therefore, just as when > the > > component parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, > poles… > > are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the mere > > conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate sense, when each > > part is examined, there is no chariot… so too, when there are the > > five khandhas of clinging there comes to be the mere conventional > > term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each > > component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the > > assumption 'I am' or 'I'; in the ultimate sense there is only > > mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is > > called correct vision." Sorry, Victor, I am confused. When I read the Sammaditthi Sutta (Mn9), I do not see where it implies that beings are other than the five aggregates. You said, "The view that a being is composed of the five aggregates is a wrong view." Please explain. In your opinion, is a "being" more than the five aggregates, less than the five aggregates or a different set of aggretgates? Or, are you following that early school (can't remember the name) who believed that a "being" was another paramattha dhamma? Metta, Rob M :-) 25772 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 8:30pm Subject: kamma DEAr Nina, On the question of whether each javana moment is kamma here is an interesting piece: "It is stated in the Kathavatthupakarana-atthakatha that there is a relationship between citta and kamma. If mind be distracted, no kamma can be performed. Yada cittam bhajjamanam hoti tada kammaam bhajjamanam hotiti attho." P147 The life and work of Buddhaghosa by B.C Law robertk 25773 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 10:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, Firstly I would like to say that I really appreciate your presence in this = group. Even when our views differ, I find your statements to be good reminder of the danger of holding onto views, esp. those that originate from and further solidify `self-view'. Actually *all* views it seems, originate from self-view, no?! With regard to this, I therefore think that = to take `beings' as being ultimately real is to risk being drawn further away from the real understanding of Anatta. I understand that ignorance is quite predominant in everyone, and this is made worse by `clinging' to views. And though I believe that the study of Abhidhamma, the knowledge about ultimate realities, is absolutely essential for any real appreciation of Buddhadhamma, I think most of us have a tendency to *cling* to our particular perspective and subsequently papancize. And here I believe, is where wise friends like you can come in to give us good reminders. But I do not quite agree with your position with regard to the status of `excrement' and `beings', and following are my remarks to your statements. I am combining both of your posts to me to save time, as I do not want to stay too long in front of this computer. (I just had my shop painted last night, and I feel quite uncomfortable with the smell.) > So excrement come from thinking about what is seen, smelt, > touched...?? What is it that is seen, smelt, touched?? In the seen there is only the seen, likewise in the smelt and touched. Apart from this, there is thinking. However this is *not* my experience, as I, like you, take excrement to be real all the time and I perceive shape and form and infer smell and texture (and probable taste ;-( ) to that `imaginary' thing! This is the way of the worldlings like us. But at least we have been given the chance through the Buddha's teachings, to know intellectually, that this is *not* so in the ultimate sense. And if conditions are ripe, I believe that we can and do get a glimpse of this fact. > Is this what is been seen, smelt, and touched reality or concept? I believe that you are pre-supposing the existence of `things' out there and attributing characteristics of experience on to that thing. In other words you have failed to see that `seeing' is only an element, and have instead taken that which is seen to be `something' waiting to be experienced by a `self'. Do you see the danger of holding such a view? Because no matter how you then view experiencing of `objects' out there, even if this is with the understanding that there is only one citta = arising at a time to experience an object, the experience will still be tie= d to `self', as originating from some fixed entity. Of course all this is just thinking, and I may be wrong about your understanding…. > Does concept comes in solid or liquid form? It is precisely because concepts are pre-supposed to exist, that the question about them being `solid or liquid' arises. See how concepts, wrongly understood lead to further reliance on other concepts?! > Does concept gives off a smell? See how you take for granted that concepts are real and then end up qualifying `smell', a reality, onto it? I think maybe this is what Mike was= trying to show in his remark made on this thread, (correct me if I am wrong Mike), that there is `smell' a reality, but ideas about the smell `excrement' a concept, is like excrement coming out as a product of ignorance in the case of worldlings like you and me…?! > I am not sure if excrement is from thinking about what is seen, > smelt, touched... > > However, I do know that excrement is waste matter discharged from > the body; especially waste (as feces) discharged from the alimentary canal.* Conventional so called `common sense' understanding is fine and scientific knowledge is fine too. As long as we understand them to be for convenience in communication, and just living in the conventional world. But see from your own example above, how for example `alimentary canal' is taken so matter of factly? This is how I believe the whole of the scientific community strives to be further caught in `illusion' in the name of the `quest for truth' which they will never get an inch closer to. This being an illustration of taking `concepts= ' to be real and further reliance on more and more concepts to explain and justify one's position. The understanding of Satipatthana is crucial, and so the correct interpretation of the sutta from which you quote below. > In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha taught that to remain focus on > the body in and of itself, "a monk reflects on this very body from > the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, > surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In > this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, > flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, > spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, > bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, > mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'" ** I do not have the Sutta with me, but I believe an important part of the Sutta which everyone who wants to overlook does so, is the part that states to the effect, that "this self or being or person, is taken just for= convenience as a means to reflect and know the ultimate realities which the consciousness apprehends within this `body'." In other words, because it is only here within this mind/matter continuum that wrong view of self originates, that the *right* can be known. And what is this Right View? That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas and rupa. Aside from this, nothing does, all being concept only! So similarly the different organs of the body, are precisely where wrong view originates, ie. we take them to be my (or other) kidney, hair, blood etc. And so it is here that we then need to `correct' our perception and hence view, *not* by then simply denying their existence, but by seeing what is then the underlying realities when these experiences occur! > This is how I see it: > This body, with all kinds of unclean things, feces, urine, pus, etc > internally or externally, is the "ultimate reality" to be reflected on. As above! ;-) But of course, when you say `unclean', then there can be reflection on asubha as well, and in this case, the object can be both `concept' and reality, I think. Or is there a subtle difference between foulness and asubha?? > I am not sure how excrement, the feces, the urine, is concept and > can be thought out. I would rather and usually go to the bathroom > and discharge them in the toilet. That's my experience too!:-) Got to rush out for some fresh air. Best wishes, Sukin. 25774 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: S:> > An example, perhaps, of how we never know the conditions at work or > what > > would have happened without certain factors?? > > ====== > > Hi Sarah, > J:> Could you please explain what you mean here? .... It was a bit of a ‘throwaway comment’. What I meant was that in effect, only a Buddha with his omniscient powers fully comprehends all the details of kamma and other condititions at work at anytime. In another thread we were talking about Culapantaka (Little Wayman) and how even his arahant brother didn’t know what he needed to hear. In the example of the Buddha’s last meal, (assuming the commentary is correct for now;-)), only the Buddha would have known the great results which would follow the offering by Cunda and how it was as a result of this delicacy that he was able to take further steps and so on. He also knew everyone would assume the meal to be the cause of sickness and blame Cunda if he didn’t speak out. In a similar (simplistic) manner, perhaps we assume a certain food or activity to be the cause of some ache or disability or sickness when in fact we may have been far sicker without it. We really understand so very little about the complex conditions and results at any time. .... >I believe there has to > be some agreement on the cause of events or there is no reason to > even learn the dhamma. With your posit, the causes for nothing could > be determined and nothing could be understood...there would be no > reason for the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. Everything would > be provisional for each person's determination; in other words, total > chaos and anarchy. ..... LOL - I’m not sure it’s quite that drastic;-) A lot can be known and understood about causes and conditions in theory and practice. We read and consider the value of the TripleGem and test out the value of all kinds of wholesome states. We also read that only a Buddha can fully comprehend the detailed workings of kamma and fully understand different determinations and accumulations. Phenomena are intricately conditioned, but this doesn’t mean all these conditions can ever be fully known (or need to be for liberation). No chaos, but no universal omniscience either. Hope this clarifies. I’ve appreciated your comments on this thread and in particular on this very important sutta. Metta, Sarah ===== 25775 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 1:05am Subject: advice on discussion topics Dear Bro. Rob Your message No:25702 dated 30-9-2003 refers. Nice to know that you are going to revise the abdhimma topics for the forecoming session.As a sunday dhamma teacher for several years, I myself do feel that it is necessary, especially when the majority of the students in your class have attended two years ( in fact right from the beginning ). It is natural to hear the comments, please treat these as valuable feedback. Before deciding on the topics, it would be good to know the students' background (marketing segment ) . I had attended your class several times and you are right that they are housewives who drop in the class before picking up their children home. Many of them, as you mentioned, seldom investigate further( in dhamma studies) after leaving the class. For the non-academic laities like those , I would suggest to teach the popular dhamma topics that the common buddhists like best. Since your intention is to teach Abhidhamma, why not "inject"/ incorporate the abhidhammic concepts into popular topics of dhamma ? I would like to suggest the followings for your class : 1) Abhidhammic aspect of rebirth ( patisandi citta ....etc) 2) 31 planes of existence ( other forms of beings and their cittas.. etc) 3) Significance of buddhist chanting (many laities here like chanting. to explain to them the arising of wholesome thought /cittas..etc) 4) Transference/sharing of merits ( how it works...from cittas/ abhidhamma point of view). 5) Ten paramis ( how to perfect paramis and get rid of defilements that accompany the practice. for example how to perform a higher form of dana ........donating while not thinking about whether the receipient will help you back or not .Cittas involved during that practice/process ) 6) Difference between wisdom and intelligence ( it is common for the laities to mix up these two terms Explain the mental factors of panna and intelligence)..... 7) Wealth, making money, right livelihood from buddhist standpoint. 8) Buddhism and war ( millitary actions and killings) 9 ) How to keep 5 precepts in business/political circles. ( on sila) 10) How to incorporate abhidhamma into daily life ? ( I often hear that abhidhamma is meant for the yogi....that also applicable only during meditation) with metta, P C 25776 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 1:16am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 17-21 for comment Hi Rob, I hope you find the passages helpful. The claim "there is no being" is simply false. Seeing and delineating oneself in terms of the five aggregates, whether one is more than the five aggregates, less than the five aggregates, or a different set of aggretgates, or composed of the five aggregates, one sees oneself with a self-view. The Buddha's teaching is not about what oneself, a being, is. It is not about what exists and what does not exist. It is not about what is real, what is concept. It is not an ontology. It is not a metaphysics. The Buddha taught the four noble truths. Buddha's teaching is about dukkha/the imperfect/the unsatisfactory and the cessation of dukkha. Ontological and metaphysical views and line of reasoning might be very fascinating, but they are entangling, obstructive to the goal of the cessation of dukkha. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 25777 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Howard & All, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > What!? One could ask how cittas can be experienced as namas! > Ideas > *are* namas. What should they be experienced as? Not rupas. That's all > there is, .... If we take ideas to be thoughts or that which is conceptualised abut, then they are pa~n~natti (concepts) which RobM just explained very clearly (Thanissaro’s use of ‘ideas’ in translations often has a wider meaning). I think you agree so far, Howard. According to the texts we’ve been considering, pannatti are NOT namas or rupas. Also as RobM has explained, they do not have the characteristics of namas or rupas either. .... > Sarah - namas, rupas, and absences (most especially nibbana). That's all > there > is. If we experience ideas - and we certainly do (!), then they are > either > namas, rupas, or absences (including nibbana). ..... Whilst concepts can be taken as objects by cittas and associated mental states (as you say, ‘we certainly do (!)’, they are never experienced in the sense of being ‘penetrated’ or ‘directly known’ as namas and rupas can be (as discussed in Vism thread). An idea of say ‘a computer’ or’ person’ or ‘butter-ja’ can never be understood. The thinking about it can, however. ..... >Unfortunately, not only > do we > experience ideas, we take them much too seriously. They are, after all, > *only* > ideas! .... Agreement! We experience and cling on to ideas, taking them for being ‘real’ and having value. As you say, they are *only* ideas, of no *intrinsic* (oops!) value at all. ..... [...] >I hope these > few short > posts have clarified my positions. (Now back to meditating. ;-) .... Yes, I understand where we’re in agreement and where there is a difference. Now it may be that *my* meditating confirms what I think is experienced and yours confirms *your* understanding. This is why I suggest we look at references sometimes -not because I’m fussed about the references, but sometimes they are needed as a kind of referee of what the Tipitaka says on the matter;-) Let me add an extract of a quote I gave before which Victor and others may may like to read again as well. We may think about and talk about people and butter-jars, but these concepts are not included in the 5 aggregates or paramattha dhammas to be known (i.e namas and rupas): (In the first chapter in the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy - the Abhidhamma text, PTS)and its commentary (the Debates Commentary) there is a lot of discussion about commonly used terms. The following quote is from the Commentary (On the Person, p 41)): ***** QUOTE “The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates, and so forth, and the popular taching consisting of ‘butter-jar,’ and so forth. The Exalted One does not, indeed, overrun consistency. Hence, on the mere expression “there is the person who,” must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept. The remaining meanings are clear everywhere. The controversy on ‘person’ is ended.” (see this post for full quote of the passage) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m17026.html Metta, Sarah ======= 25778 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion i Howard, It must be a day for me to interrupt your meditations;-), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > Howard: > It's a matter of emphasis, Sarah, and of language. The emphasis > strongly suggests an adherence to discretist, self-existence view. The > word > 'intrinsic' clinches it. Both connotation and denotation are dangerous. .... Perhaps we should just use ‘sabhaava’ or one of the other translations we picked , such as ‘particular qualit’? I think we were quoting Nanamoli’s transl of the vism in this thread, but I forget now. ..... > I particularly draw your attention to "belonging to the essential > > nature or constitution of a thing" and to "originating and included > wholly within > an organ or part". Compare this with the following definition of > 'extrinsic' : > "originating from or on the outside". The Buddhist position, of course, > is a > middle-way one which is neither intrinsic nor extrinsic. Both of those > extremes are grounded in a substantialist sense. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, I don’t have a problem with ‘intrinsic’ as defined and don’t consider that referring to the ‘nama-ness’ or ‘impermanence’ or ‘quality of experiencing visible object’ when referring to the *essential nature or constitution* of seeing consciousness as being any problem. I understand that for TG and yourself, you are not happy about impermanence, for example, as being referred to as an inherent or essential or intrinsic quality of phenomena. When we refer to ‘sabbe sankhara dhamma anicca’ and so on, surely as Nyantiloka writes in his dict entry under ‘anicca’: “impermanence is a basic feature of all conditioned phenomena, be they material or mental, coarse or subtle, one’s own or external..” Without insight into the ‘basic features’, ‘characteristics’ or sabhaava, starting with the clear distinction of the qualities of namas and rupas, there can be no attainment or deliverance. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: [...] > What is important in all cases is the dependent origination and > emptiness. > ------------------------------------------------- I agreed with most your comments and don’t want to get lost in semantics here either;-) We do however have a fundamental difference of understanding at this point in that I understand the texts to be referring to paramattha dhammas which have the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and which are dependent on causes and to be known in successive stages of penetrative insight for liberation to take place. By ‘all cases’, I understand you to be including concepts. ..... > > Have you got a reference which suggests concepts have lakkana > > (characteristics)? [If there’s one reference or sutta for all qus, > that > > would be convenient.....] > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This is evident. If they had no characteristics there would be no > way > of distinguishing them! We *do* distinguish concepts. One doesn't need > scriptural references for everything. If we did, wed have to carry a > pocket book of > suttas around with us to live on this planet. > ======================== ... LOL - we distinguish concepts by thinking about them. Again it is the sanna, vitakka and other mental states that have distinguishing characteristics. Even if we voice out our thoughts and say “H.O.W.A.R.D” or “L.A.R.R.R.Y”, all that is heard are various sounds, only visible objects are seen on the screen and more pannatti on account of these ‘distinguished’ sounds and visible objects. I don’t think I’ve explained very clearly. These are subtle and useful points and I appreciate your deep reflections on them, Howard. Maybe others like RobM or Sukin can add more. Metta, Sarah ===== 25779 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 2:47am Subject: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Howard (& Ken H), For what it’s worth, I thought these comments you made before (post 24714) in a great discussion with Ken H were very good (I mean I agreed;-)). Hardness rupas have particular common qualities, but no two hardness rupas are the same as you explain: ============================ Howard : [...]The error, and I do think it was an error, was to informally think of rupas as self-sufficient in the following sense: I was, for example, thinking of hardness as a unitary, mind-independent rupa constituting *one* thing, and a separate appropriate mind-door vi~n~nana, conditioned to observe that rupa with a certain vedanic taste, and then these two separate phenomena coming together in contact. But, what I think is probably closer to the facts is that hardness is not a single rupa, but is a category of rupas; in any context, a variety of conditions,including one's own kamma, create the potential for the arising/actualization of a *particular* hardness-rupa to be experienced with characteristics, including type and degree of vedanic taste, specific to that hardness-rupa but not necessarily to others. Once certain conditions, arise, the rupa, as a specific potential arammana, arises, and when and if the necessary full complement of conditions has finally arisen, the rupa is actualized by contact. The main point here, putting aside the potentiality-actuality business, which may be problematical or at least debatable, is that there are, even for a single namarupic stream, different hardness rupas that arise, with differing characteristics, and not just the "same" hardness rupa arising at different times and perceived differently at different times.” ***** As Ken H also said (post 24699), the flavour or hardness is inherent in the rupa-arammana. (Rupas are conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition, Ken. Those outside such as food or rocks are conditioned by temperature). I also liked the way you (Ken H) wrote in the same thread: “It is important to know that dhammas are absolute -- that their characteristics are independent of how they are reacted to. A rupa that becomes the object of consciousness is inherently pleasant or unpleasant. It depends, not on how it is perceived, but on how it is conditioned (and is conditioned by either kusala kamma or akusala kamma). [S: i.e the experiencing of the object or vipaka cittas. Rupas experienced by one of the 4 causes above - always an intricate set of conditions at work to include other support conditions too]. You continued to write wisely imho, “As a general rule, pleasant sense objects are reacted to with lobha and unpleasant objects with dosa but I think there are a lot of exceptions.....it’s probably just that various other conditions predominate. What is important though, is that we appreciate the absolute nature of dhammas: A rupa may be inherently pleasant even when it is experienced with dosa; or inherently unpleasant even when it is experienced with lobha.” (Ken H, I hope you can add more in your pithy style which is helpful for us all. Btw, I could think of a very good reason to go from the Sunshine coast to the Gold coast for a holiday: quality time with Sue, your wife who never got her proper shower on the ranch and happily teaches whilst you check out the surf;-)) Finally, I want to add this quote which was in one of Jaran’s posts from his translation of a talk of K.Sujin’s: ***** Sujin: “Thinking of dhamma, understanding that there are characteristics and nature to be understood directly is on the right path of directly experience the dhamma. Sometime later after when this knowledge has settled in the mind firmly, sati, even without calling it sati, arises to be aware of the dhamma and its nature. Without having to do anything, making anything arise, but understanding that there are characteristics to be understood, the right understanding begins to develop. This is difficult since we are not familiar with the characteristics of dhamma because of our ignorance. We are more familiar with 'hope', 'ambition', 'desire' and 'work for what we want'.” Metta, Sarah ===== 25780 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] advice on discussion topics Hi PC & RobM, (Good to see you around PC....look forward to hearing more from you;-)). --- bodhi dhamma wrote: > > Before deciding on the topics, it would be good to know the students' > background (marketing segment ) . I had attended your class several > times and you are right that they are housewives who drop in the class > before picking up their children home. Many of them, as you mentioned, > seldom investigate further( in dhamma studies) after leaving the class. .... I’m not adding any more topics, but I’m just wondering whether it might be useful to try and involve these students a little more in the classes. You know they will be with you for the year, so one suggestion might be in the first class to ask everyone to write down one topic or one question on a piece of paper (names optional)for you to look at later and incorporate into your plan for the year. It might be interesting for you to see the areas that come up and help the students to feel the lectures are relevant to their requests and needs and add special interest when their topics come up. (Most will fit into your present framework, I'm sure). Pls ignore if it wouldn’t work for your large audience. Metta, Sarah ======= 25781 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 3:17am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > S:> > An example, perhaps, of how we never know the conditions at work or > > what > > > would have happened without certain factors?? > > > ====== > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > J:> Could you please explain what you mean here? > .... > It was a bit of a `throwaway comment'. What I meant was that in effect, > only a Buddha with his omniscient powers fully comprehends all the details > of kamma and other condititions at work at anytime. Hi Sarah, Well, it seems to me that you are going to keep dancing around this issue. I give you specifics and you keep giving me generalities; and the thing is that you are using generalities to support what is a very specific position of the commentaries. Let's get down to brass tacks, I have an interest in disproving the commentaries, any commentaries, because I believe that many of them are wrong…as I have said before. Unfortunately, up to this point my contentions with the commentaries have always been with interpretive issues, which are easy to slip out of when there is any discussion. However, this is one time when the issue is pretty black and white…the Buddha both got sick and died from eating that meal or he didn't…and yet you are trying to say that it is interpretive. It is not interpretive…there is one answer that is correct and the other answer isn't correct. The question is: Which is the correct answer? I find this `interpretive' stance convenient for you because you support the commentaries entirely and don't believe that any of them could be false or misleading. This is a very important point to me because I believe that if I can prove that just one commentary is false, it has to be accepted that they all can be false. After all, if just one teaching of the Buddha is false, they are all false. Since they are all true, the entire teaching is true. The commentaries aren't from the Buddha, remember that. I believe that I have shown, without a reasonable doubt, that this commentary is false. It just doesn't add up no matter how you look at it. It doesn't match what other's said about the Buddha's death and it doesn't match what he himself said about his impending death. Yes, the Buddha did say that people shouldn't blame Cunda for his death and that Cunda shouldn't blame himself, but he didn't say that the meal had nothing to do with his death…He just said that Cunda should consider himself lucky that he gave the Buddha his last meal. Don't you get it? He was being a nice guy up to the very end… diffusing what could have potentially turned into an ugly situation . He didn't say, "Don't blame Cunda because his meal was actually infused with nutrients from devas and will allow me to live a little time more. I was actually going to die anyway and have bloody diarrhea and pains from no cause. Cunda's meal didn't cause that at all" That is a ridiculous conclusion to reach that isn't supported by the text at all. It doesn't take an arahant to have some common sense in evaluating the events of his death. You are saying that only an arahant can know what caused his death…well, isn't that a convenient position? Again, it appears to me that you are trying to slip out of the obvious…the commentaries created a false report to justify some hidden agenda; a more useful discussion would be to determine what that agenda was. Why create this fairy tale? I know that you are not going to concede this point because I know what it would mean. It would unravel a lot that you stand on. Until you present more compelling, SPECIFIC evidence in support of the commentaries' conclusion, I think my point still stands. Let the readers of this post decide the rest for themselves. Metta, James 25782 From: Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/2/03 4:38:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Whilst concepts can be taken as objects by cittas and associated mental > states (as you say, ‘we certainly do (!)’, they are > never experienced in the sense of being ‘penetrated’ or ‘directly known’ > as namas and rupas can be (as discussed in Vism thread). An idea of say ‘a > computer’ or’ person’ or ‘butter-ja’ can never be understood. The thinking > about it can, however. > =========================== A brief comment, bowing ever so slightly in your direction. I still maintain that concepts are simply ideas, and ideas are mind-door objects, and are namas. But, and this is a big 'but', concepts are not nearly so simple and unitary as a perfunctory, unexamined observation would suggest. For example, to say that we have an idea/concept of 'computer' is not quite so. Many *differing*, and mostly quite vague, 'computer' ideas arise in the mind. One such idea is a mental summing up of *certain* experiences, generally of complex streams of experiences. and other such are summings up (and summonings up!) of yet *other* such experiential streams. All of these embody experiences of a variety of sorts including visual, tactile, and other types, and frequently "topped off" by, if not a verbal expression, then at least by an impulse to same reflecting a mental unification. Ideas and concepts are quite complex, difficult to grasp, multi-formed, multi-layered, and elusive (and illusive!) - but they *are* mind-door objects. I find unacceptable the notion that penetration with wisdom of any mind-door object is impossible. An arahant, or certainly a Buddha, would have the wisdom to understand fully all the nuances and aspects of every arising concept he encounters. Even we poor worldings can grasp many of the multi-layered aspects of our concepts, observing how, for example, "the" tree concept is built of other concepts such as bark, roots, branches (and branching), leaves, etc, and associated notions of birds setting on branches, of bird nests etc, and a further grasping of how, for example, the bark-concept is built of concepts such as dark color, rough texture, and hardness, etc, etc. All this even *we* can see, from our very limited and circumscribed perspectives. When we look and apparently "see" a tree, a concept of tree is arising (or several such arise in a sequence) at the mind-door; it arises (or they arise) as mental reification growing out of a mental proliferation upon sa~n~nic recognitions, recognitions which already sum up a variety of visual clues, and make "matchings" via memory. What is going on is mental function, the creation of mental constructs, and these are knowable by wisdom as to their precise nature, and in full detail, though not to us at our stage with our current limitations With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25783 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Hi James, The Facts as I understand them: 1.I made it clear that I thought you raised a good point at the outset as there did seem to be a discrepancy in the texts. I said that I thought we’d need to look further at the Pali (with assistance) for the verse in question in the sutta. I had no interest in getting into any dispute over it and that wasn’t the point of my post as you know well;-) 2. I mentioned as a general comment that conditions were very complex. 3. You asked me to explain what I meant by this, which I did. I made reference to the commentary, but was not discussing whether it was right or not. I merely said ‘assuming for this discussion’....I could have said ‘assuming for this discussion that the Buddha died from the food’ and the points I made would have been the same. 4. Yes, I have great confidence in the ancient commentaries and as a general rule would always rely on their interpretations before those of my own or of modern scholars. (Of course there are bound to be some errors and occasional differences between say Burmese and Thai texts. One of these was discussed with Suan and B.Bodhi). I have no problem in accepting that many others like yourself take the opposite stand and have an interest in disproving them. 5. I’m very glad that contentions about the commentaries and various interpretive issues are raised here. I think discussion of these points are essential for all of us in developing our understanding and for the future of (Theravada) Buddhism. Who knows, one of us might even change our stance;-) 6. You make a good point about showing ‘one false commentary’. I haven’t reached the same conclusion as you as yet in this case. I think it’s premature and I would be surprised if there really is a conflict in the texts. After all, the commentators would have had an interest in giving not only a correct interpretation, but one that would not be understood to be in conflict with the sutta on a basic point;-) I hope Suan, Derek, Steve or someone will help fish out the Pali and talk us through it: (Parinibbana Sutta, ii 129, Walshe transl p257 4.20) Metta, Sarah ===== 25784 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hello RobM, This post is much appreciated. I've read and reasoned out many times before that "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." But it always seemed like an abstract formula that had nothing much to do with everyday life. You say: "> When observed in this manner, is it not clear that concepts (non-ultimate realities) are what we take as real after the mind starts working on them?< Yes, this time, with your example of the difference between thinking and experiencing, and differences in the way we feel towards the same object over time, I understand more clearly (while still holding in remembrance the Buddha's caution to Ananda, about the deepness and difficulty of really comprehending it). Thanks Rob. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 25785 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 2:18pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Hi Sarah, Thank you so much for enumerating your points. It makes it so much clearer what you are saying and allows me to respond in kind. I have responded in text: The Facts as I understand them: 1.I made it clear that I thought you raised a good point at the outset as there did seem to be a discrepancy in the texts. I said that I thought we'd need to look further at the Pali (with assistance) for the verse in question in the sutta. I had no interest in getting into any dispute over it and that wasn't the point of my post as you know well;-) James: Okay, now I don't want to sound sarcastic, but I am not looking for pats on the head. I want to know if you either agree with my point or disagree with it, not if you think it is a `good point'; I know that `teacher technique' all too well, being a teacher myself. No need to butter me up. Please explain why we need to `look at the Pali' with assistance. What exactly do you think that is going to prove or disprove? It was my understanding that these `dhamma issues' were written by monks well versed in Pali. How many Pali experts need to look at this one issue? I think you are making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. I have to smile at your comment that you didn't intend to get into any dispute about this with me. Just where have you been? This is me we are talking about here…you don't pick the disputes, they will pick you. ;-) 2. I mentioned as a general comment that conditions were very complex. 3. You asked me to explain what I meant by this, which I did. I made reference to the commentary, but was not discussing whether it was right or not. I merely said `assuming for this discussion'....I could have said `assuming for this discussion that the Buddha died from the food' and the points I made would have been the same. James: So, like I said, you were being general, not making any specific points. If you didn't have any specific points to make, and no agenda whatsoever, I don't understand why you chose to respond (well, actually I think I do but I won't say). As I recall my original post was to Nina. Why would you jump in if you have nothing to say one way or the other? (But actually you did…in many subtle ways…but I will pretend for now that you didn't) 4. Yes, I have great confidence in the ancient commentaries and as a general rule would always rely on their interpretations before those of my own or of modern scholars. (Of course there are bound to be some errors and occasional differences between say Burmese and Thai texts. One of these was discussed with Suan and B.Bodhi). I have no problem in accepting that many others like yourself take the opposite stand and have an interest in disproving them. James: Thank you for making your position clear. I guess you are very magnanimous. 5. I'm very glad that contentions about the commentaries and various interpretive issues are raised here. I think discussion of these pointsare essential for all of us in developing our understanding and for thefuture of (Theravada) Buddhism. Who knows, one of us might even change our stance;-) James: These discussions aren't going to get anyone anywhere if there is a constant veneer of `dhamma political correctness' to the discussions. There is nothing wrong with having a position and stating it forthright; that isn't against Buddhism. 6. You make a good point about showing `one false commentary'. I haven't reached the same conclusion as you as yet in this case. I think it's premature and I would be surprised if there really is a conflict in the texts. After all, the commentators would have had an interest in giving not only a correct interpretation, but one that would not be understood to be in conflict with the sutta on a basic point;-) James: Again, unnecessary pat on the head to start with. If you haven't reached the same conclusion just explain why you haven't reached the same conclusion. What reasons do you have? By your own statementws, you haven't made any points. You think a conclusion is premature at this point? Why? Does it have to be discussed for years before any decision is reached? This seems pretty straightforward to me…I want to know what you are thinking and why you are thinking it. This could have been a simple discussion but I feel as if I am pulling teeth to get a straight answer. I hope Suan, Derek, Steve or someone will help fish out the Pali and talk us through it: (Parinibbana Sutta, ii 129, Walshe transl p257 4.20) James: Okay. I feel like this is Dhamma Congress and my proposal has just been tabled…until a later date when it can receive more study. I was never one for politics. Metta, James 25786 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 3:28pm Subject: The Perfect Gift Dear Friends, Blood is an anonymous gift. There is no way that the recipient could know who the donor was. Donating blood is a pure act of giving, without any other possible motives. Blood is free from economics. When a gift is opened, the recipient cannot help but think of how much was paid. Unlike other types of gifts, neither the donor nor the recipient attaches an economic value to a gift of blood. Blood is a very personal gift. What could be more personal than blood? Blood cannot be manufactured, except by a human body. During the act of donating, blood is pumped into the sac by the heart of the donor. The recipient always appreciates a gift of blood. Other types of gifts are sometimes left unused or unappreciated. When a person receives blood it is because they really need it; perhaps it is even a case of life or death. You do not need to be wealthy to donate blood, just healthy. I think that we all agree that health is more important than wealth. Let us celebrate our good health and share it with others who are less fortunate (less healthy) than ourselves by donating blood. Metta, Rob M :-) 25787 From: Derek Cameron Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 3:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Hi, Sarah, > I hope Suan, Derek, Steve or someone will help fish out the Pali > and talk us through it: (Parinibbana Sutta, ii 129, Walshe transl > p257 4.20) Is this the bit you're interested in? PTS D ii.128 tipitaka.org DN 2.3.190 cundassa bhatta.m bhu~njitvaa kammaarassaati me suta.m aabaadha.m samphusii dhiiro pabaalha.m maara.nantika.m bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena byaadhippabaalho udapaadi satthuno (virecamaano? viriccamaano? viri~ncamaano?) bhagavaa avoca gacchaamaha.m kusinaara.m nagaranti Derek. 25788 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] advice on discussion topics Hi PC (and Sarah) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > Before deciding on the topics, it would be good to know the students' > > background (marketing segment ) . I had attended your class several > > times and you are right that they are housewives who drop in the class > > before picking up their children home. Many of them, as you mentioned, > > seldom investigate further( in dhamma studies) after leaving the class. > .... Incorporate the abhidhammic concepts into popular topics of dhamma is exactly the approach that I want to take. Some items in your list of popular dhamma topics would definitely fit under my previous list, such as: - Abhidhammic aspect of rebirth -> What happens when I die - Significance of buddhist chanting -> What is the role of rites and rituals? - Transference/sharing of merits -> What is the role of rites and rituals? However, you have given me some excellent new ideas as well: - How to keep 5 precepts in business? - What is the Buddhist view on war? - 31 planes of existence (this topic is not "practical", but it is very popular, so I will include it in the list) PC, thanks for your suggestions! > I'm not adding any more topics, but I'm just wondering whether it might be > useful to try and involve these students a little more in the classes. You > know they will be with you for the year, so one suggestion might be in the > first class to ask everyone to write down one topic or one question on a > piece of paper (names optional)for you to look at later and incorporate > into your plan for the year. It might be interesting for you to see the > areas that come up and help the students to feel the lectures are relevant > to their requests and needs and add special interest when their topics > come up. (Most will fit into your present framework, I'm sure). > > Pls ignore if it wouldn't work for your large audience. Sarah, this is an excellent suggestion. I will prepare my current list of topics and leave space for ten to twenty more topics to be written in. I will circulate it in my class to get their input. Metta, Rob M :-) 25789 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you so much for enumerating your points. It makes it so much > clearer what you are saying and allows me to respond in kind. I have > responded in text: ..... :-) thanks for these. (I’ll try to remember to add ‘pats on the head’ to the list of pet peeves under your name. Let’s see: James - rupa, akusala, Pali experts, pat on the head......) > I have to smile at your > comment that you didn't intend to get into any dispute about this > with me. Just where have you been? This is me we are talking about > here… .... Right...I must have forgotten...LOL...I notice everyone else is much smarter round here;-) .... >you don't pick the disputes, they will pick you. ;-) ..... So it seems.. ... [...] > James: Okay. I feel like this is Dhamma Congress and my proposal has > just been tabled…until a later date when it can receive more study. .... Now that’s a good idea (oops - pet peeves list)....;-) Back to a few other disputes.... Metta, Sarah ======= 25790 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 2, 2003 11:42pm Subject: Nina & Yahoo Dear All, Nina hasn't gone away yet, but she's been having problems with yahoo and all the mods having been working hard trying to sort things out for her. For no apparent reason she stopped getting mail from DSG and hasn't been able to send posts either. We've reactivated another yahoo account for her, so hopefully she'll be back soon. I mention this partly in case anyone else has the same problems and also in case anyone's been waiting for an answer. Metta, Sarah ======= 25791 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Hi Derek (Nina, James, Mike & All), --- Derek Cameron wrote: >(Parinibbana Sutta, ii 129, Walshe transl > > p257 4.20) > > Is this the bit you're interested in? ... Yes, thank you very much. Exactly. > > PTS D ii.128 > tipitaka.org DN 2.3.190 > > cundassa bhatta.m bhu~njitvaa kammaarassaati me suta.m > aabaadha.m samphusii dhiiro pabaalha.m maara.nantika.m > > bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena > byaadhippabaalho udapaadi satthuno > (virecamaano? viriccamaano? viri~ncamaano?) bhagavaa avoca > gacchaamaha.m kusinaara.m nagaranti .... viriccamaano - purging (present participle of viriccati -to get purged) according to PED. (the wheel transl however gives ‘dauntless’, presumably from viriya -energy??) I have the wheel (sister Vajira & Francis Story) and Walshe translations and both look pretty accurate from my very limited comprehension of the Pali. (James, I note Walshe does use ‘bloody diarrohoea’ as you rightly gave, whilst the wheel one uses ‘dysentery’). The verse (added later) definitely seems to say he got sick ‘from the suukara-maddava (tender pork)’[instr case] after eating the meal provided by Cunda whereas the prose before it just says after eating the meal...he got sick and had the deadly pains etc. Derek (*Mike* or anyone else), do you have anything to add? I’ve got students arriving and am in a rush now. (Just looking for very quick replies - TG, KKT and others - I look f/w to getting back later, after the weekend probably). Thx again for your help in fishing out the Pali- (I had looked but got lost and confused in the maze of symbols I get;-( ) Metta, Sarah ====== 25792 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, I thought you made some very wise comments in your post to Victor. Your explanation (below) of the extract from the S.sutta was very helpful, I thought. of course, most the world won’t agree with it and that’s fine too;-) When others disagree we can either ignore these comments, try to explain our understanding further, and/or learn from the other viewpoints as you said to Victor. Yes, the reading can be helpful forthe explanations as well - a kind of dana. Look forward to examples from your note-taking at the Sat discussion;-) Anumodana, Sarah ====== Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > I do not have the Sutta with me, but I believe an important part of the > Sutta which everyone who wants to overlook does so, is the part that > states to the effect, that "this self or being or person, is taken just > for= > > convenience as a means to reflect and know the ultimate realities which > the consciousness apprehends within this `body'." In other words, > because it is only here within this mind/matter continuum that wrong > view of self originates, that the *right* can be known. And what is this > > Right View? That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas and rupa. Aside > from this, nothing does, all being concept only! > So similarly the different organs of the body, are precisely where wrong > > view originates, ie. we take them to be my (or other) kidney, hair, > blood > etc. And so it is here that we then need to `correct' our perception and > > hence view, *not* by then simply denying their existence, but by seeing > what is then the underlying realities when these experiences occur! .... 25793 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Larry, Thx for elaborating on your understanding of concepts and reality and your reference to Warder’s article - all of which I read with interest. Perhaps you could post just a paragraph or two sometime. As I just have a few minutes, I’ll just respond to your qu: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > What I was wondering about self view and experience is why does anger as > root consciousness running through javana seem like "me"? .... As you imply, wrong views don’t arise with anger, but as soon as the anger has passed away, it can subsequently be the object of those self and other wrong views in following javanas rooted in attachment. These follow each other so quickly that it seems like the anger is *Me* as you say. If the anger is followed by javanas with wisdom, then there is no idea of *Me* at all - just conditioned mental factors. So, no *Me* except as object (concept-pannatti) of ditthi. Metta, Sarah p.s Let me know if there was anything else in particular that you wished me to comment on. ===== 25794 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Victor, Thx for your feedback. Pls excuse a rushed reply: --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > Some points to share: > > 1. Seeing yourself as the five aggregates is the self-view. ..... Agree .... > 2. It is you and only you who can eat, for instance, the dimsum (if > you do eat them)or yourself, not eating. .... Disagree (occasionally but not good for the waist-line;-)) .... >Eating is not you. ..... Agree .... > Likewise, it is you and only you who can understand, for instance, > the Buddha's teaching, for yourself, not panna. ..... Disagree ..... >And panna is not > you. ..... Agree ..... > 3. The conditioned can be categorized either as nama or rupa. ..... Agree ..... > Excrement is conditioned. ..... Disagree (Hope we can discuss a lily next time (put in down to my pet peeves if you like);-)) Metta, Sarah ====== 25795 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 1:08am Subject: comment on the diary Dear James, I am Janice Chung and I hope you would still remember me! It was fascinating about the diary you have written " Arrival and Cave Dweller" Here are some questions: Are there any Buddhists besides from you in Egypt? Are there any Buddhist temples there? Do you go to the temple everyday? So far, where have you explored in Cairo? I have been to Cairo with my mom and cousin 2 years ago and it was very amazing to learn about Egypt! That's all! Metta, Janice 25796 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 1:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thank you so much for enumerating your points. It makes it so much > > clearer what you are saying and allows me to respond in kind. I have > > responded in text: > ..... > :-) thanks for these. (I'll try to remember to add `pats on the head' to > the list of pet peeves under your name. Let's see: James - rupa, akusala, > Pali experts, pat on the head......) Hi Sarah, Yep, seems easy enough to remember...;-). Leave some space, there might be some more that come up! LOL! Metta, James 25797 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 3:27am Subject: About Buddhism James: I'm Philip. I would like to ask you a few more questions following last letter: 1. How did you know that I should be nice to my sister and my teachers? Did anyone told you that I am being bad to them? 2. Why did your luggage end up in France, when it should be in Cairo, Egypt? 3. Where are you staying now? In a friend's house or in a hotel? 4. Why do monks have to shave their heads and memorise the same words every day, and they must live in a monestary and they can't live like ordinary people? Please tell me. 5. Is Buddhism your first religion? 6. Actually, is the Buddha male or female? 7. Is the Buddha a person? 8. Is the Buddha as popular as soccer players such as David Beckham? Thanks for answering the questions. Philip Chui 25798 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I am comfortable with the idea that tranquility arises in daily > life but > I am not so sure it is always wholesome. The most obvious example > would > be sleep. Another example would be the tranquility that arises with > satisfaction on completing an intended activity: having washed the > dishes, I briefly feel relaxed (tranquil) and satisfied. Samatha/tranquillity is the name given to a very specific kind of kusala consciousness, so if it's not wholesome then it can't properly be called samatha/tranquillity as used in the texts. What we may conventionally regard as tranquillity will most likely be akusala consciousness rooted in attachment (such as the pleasant, relaxed feeling you mention). Sleep would be a good example of something that is in fact acccompanied by attachment but that is seen conventionally as perhaps wholesome but at least morally 'neutral'. This is why the development of samatha requires (among other things) knowledge by direct experience of the difference between kusala and the akusala that is subtle attachment or aversion. Nevertheless, there may well be moments of kusala in our daily lives that we are not aware of since they are 'lost' in the ever-present attachment and aversion. That's why I suggested trying to postulate a few. Any instances (real or hypothetical) to mention? ... > Maybe the reason the Buddha so often recommended the peace of > concentration is because it was something people could do and also > no > one is really convinced that nibbana is desirable, so this is a way > of > demonstrating the benefits of peace. Why do you think samma samadhi > is part of the 8-fold path? As you know, I understand the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path to be mental factors (cetasikas) that arise at a moment of path consciousness. Samadhi is one of these. Samadhi is a factor in vipassana bhaavanaa (insight development) and also in samatha bhaavanaa (tranquillity development), but to my understanding the samadhi of samatha bhavana cannot perform the samadhi function for vipassana bhavana. Jon 25799 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 8:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > cundassa bhatta.m bhu~njitvaa kammaarassaati me suta.m > > aabaadha.m samphusii dhiiro pabaalha.m maara.nantika.m > > bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena > > byaadhippabaalho udapaadi satthuno > > (virecamaano? viriccamaano? viri~ncamaano?) bhagavaa avoca > > gacchaamaha.m kusinaara.m nagaranti > Derek (*Mike* or anyone else), do you have anything to add? Looks good to me, Sarah ... "bhu~njitvaa," having eaten, and "suukaramaddavena," instrumental. So, not only post hoc, but also propter hoc. Derek. 25800 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. Dear Sarah, Derek and all, I found in the Milinda Questions: 175 that Milinda discussed the last meal with Nagasena. Milinda said: Nagasena answered:< ...For that alms is full of virtue, full of advantage. The gods, O king, shouted in joy and gladness at the thought: "This is the last meal the Tathaagata will take," and communicated a divine power of nourishment to that tender pork. And that was itself in good condition, light, pleasant, full of flavour, and good for digestion. It was not because of it that any sickness fell upon the Blessed One, but it was because of the extreme weakness of his body, and because of the period of life he had to live been exhausted, that the disease arose, and grew worse and worse....So this was not, O king, the fault of the food that was presented, and you can not impute any harm to it."> op 03-10-2003 09:18 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > The verse (added later) definitely seems to say he got sick ‘from the > suukara-maddava (tender pork)’[instr case] after eating the meal provided > by Cunda whereas the prose before it just says after eating the meal...he > got sick and had the deadly pains etc. 25801 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Dear Derek, Thank you for the Pali. Now in the verse we have to look at the instrumental case: bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena..: bhuttassa: from bhutta: eaten, or: the person who has eaten: thus, for the person who has eaten. suukaramaddavena: instrumental: by means of, by way of.. the suukaramaddava. In Warder lesson 8, there are many uses of instrumental case: accompaniement, endowed with. It says: . An example: angry at , here is an instrumental. Also: manner, in this way. So, it is not as strong as paccaya, condition, used in the Co: the food was *not* the condition. Also time: at the end of which. aparena samayena: after some time. There are many uses, a wide meaning. Here is the Co: 20. : It arose fo him who had eaten, but not by the condition of what was eaten; if he had not eaten...> as is: he could not have gone afoot. When I compare texts, I am inclined to give the instrumental case a more general annotation. It is different from the ablative, not a definite cause. What do you think? I would like to know what the Saddaniti has to say, perhaps we shift to Pali list? As to diarrhoea, I do not see the Pali word blood, lohita. We cannot bother Jim, he is away, but perhaps Rob Ed? He has so much experience. I heard there is the first snow in Island. Nina. op 03-10-2003 00:34 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@y...: > PTS D ii.128 > tipitaka.org DN 2.3.190 > > cundassa bhatta.m bhu~njitvaa kammaarassaati me suta.m > aabaadha.m samphusii dhiiro pabaalha.m maara.nantika.m > > bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena > byaadhippabaalho udapaadi satthuno > (virecamaano? viriccamaano? viri~ncamaano?) bhagavaa avoca > gacchaamaha.m kusinaara.m nagaranti 25802 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina & Yahoo Dear Sarah, thank you for all the trouble. I can easily repost my mails, I do not know whether you frwd them already meanwhile. OK I send them now. We are not going for a trek in Ardennes now because of heavy wheather. Nina op 03-10-2003 08:42 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > Nina hasn't gone away yet, but she's been having problems with yahoo 25803 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 11:13am Subject: Tiika Visuddhimagga 18. Relevant text Vis 18: 18. But in either of these cases any skill in means to cause the production of such and such things, which skill occurs at that moment and is aroused on that occasion, is what is called "skill in means", according as it is said: 'And all understanding of means thereto is "skill in means"' (Vbh. 326). So it is of three kinds as skill in improvement, in detriment, and in means. 18. sabbattha pana tesa.m tesa.m dhammaana.m upaayesu nibbattikaara.nesu ta.mkha.nappavatta.m .thaanuppattika.m kosalla.m upaayakosalla.m naama. yathaaha -- ``sabbaapi tatrupaayaa pa~n~naa upaayakosalla''nti (vibha0 771). eva.m aayaapaayaupaayakosallavasena tividhaa. Tiika text: words: accaayika: urgent bhaya (n): fear, danger tikicchaa (f): art of healing .thaana (n): place, condition, reason .thaanuppatti: instant arising .thaanaso: with reason, at once, instantly kara.niiya: ought to be done Tiika: 18. sabbatthaati sabbesu. As to the words, in every way, this means in all (these cases). tesa.m tesa.m dhammaananti sattaana.m ta.mta.mhitasukhadhammaana.m. As to the words, of such and such things, this means, of such and such beneficial and happy things for beings *. ta"nkha.nappavattanti accaayike kicce vaa bhaye vaa uppanne tassa tikicchanattha.m tasmi.myeva kha.ne pavatta.m. As to the words, (skill)occurring at that moment, this means, when a sudden need or a danger has arisen, it occurs at that very moment with the purpose of remedying it. .thaanena uppatti etassa atthiiti .thaanuppattika.m, .thaanaso eva uppajjanaka.m. There is the arising of it on that occasion and thus it is aroused on that occasion, it is arising instantly. tatrupaayaati tatra tatra kara.niiye upaayabhuutaa. As to the words, (and all understanding of) the means thereto, that is: what constitutes the means concerning such or such task to be done. ****** English: As to the words, in every way, this means in all (these cases). As to the words, of such and such things, this means, of such and such beneficial and happy things for beings *. As to the words, (skill)occurring at that moment, this means, when a sudden need or a danger has arisen, it occurs at that very moment with the purpose of remedying it. There is the arising of it on that occasion and thus it is aroused on that occasion, it is arising instantly. As to the words, (and all understanding of) the means thereto, that is: what constitutes the means concerning such or such task to be done. _________ * Thus, it is the understanding which is skill in means to cause the production of such and such happy and beneficial things for beings. ******* Nina. 25804 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice on Discussion Topics Dear Htoo, very good topics, and you know, we could also use them here in dsg, what do you think? But only one by one, they are so many. Nina op 30-09-2003 16:56 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > 1.Difference between Moha and Avijja > 2.Does Akusala co-exist Kusala? > 3.Is it possible that Nama exist on their own without any Rupa? > 4.Asannasatta Rupa Brahma and where is their Citta? > 5.Do Brahma go to Apaya Bhumi directly? > 6.How do Arahats use their time before Parinibbana? > 7.Is Anicca Anatta or is Dukkha Anatta? Which one is Anatta? > 8.What is the object of Arahatta Magga Citta? > 9.Are all Tilekkhana seen at the same time? > 10.When or where is the distinction between previous life and present > life? > 11.Can animal reborn at Deva realms? > 12. Are there animals at Deva realms ( horse cart driven by Martali )? > 13.Are there 4 Rupa Jhana or 5 Rupa jhana? > 14. What is Vicara and what is the difference between Vitakka and > Vicara? > 15.What is Saddha? > 16.All Kusala Cittas are accompanied by Saddha. If so, what about non- > Buddhists giving their possession as offering to other people or > group as charity? > 17. Is Miccha-Ditthi Akusala? > 18. Are all non-Buddhists commiting Akusala because of their Miccha- > Ditthi? > 19. What is Samma-Ditthi? Is it Vitakka or anything else? > 20.Do Visuddhi Magga come one after another? > 21.Are Sotapana free from Akusala? If so, what are possible Akusala > in them and compare them with those of Puthujana? > 22.Why don't Brahmas have Tadaarmmanacitta? > 23.What are Manodvaravithicittas and Visayapavatti? > 24.Can Arahats experience Nibbana before Parinibbana? In which way? > 25.Why do Dvi-Pancavinnana have only 7 Cetasikas? > 26.Do Mana and Dosa arise together? > 25805 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 01 ) Dear Htoo and Rob M, I liked your discussion on citta and cetasikas. When citta is the object of awareness, cetasikas cannot be known at the same time, although they accompany citta. Seeing can be object of awareness. At other times it can be dosa or feeling. The way you, Htoo, explained about purity of citta is the same as we heard from A. Sujin in Bgk. < Citta is pure. It is clean. It is luminous. It is radiant. It is free of sins and free of all Akusala. This is its origionality. But as Cetasikas always accompany him, its pureness has gone and there arise different Cittas good and bad. > Thank you, with appreciation, Nina. 25806 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice on Discussion Topics Dear Rob M, Yes, it is a good idea, also what Christine and Larry suggested. with appreciation, Nina. op 30-09-2003 16:43 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Ignorance would be a major theme of "What is the Buddhist > perspective on life (right view)?" 25807 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue 12, the Buddha's Last Meal. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Derek and all, > I found in the Milinda Questions: 175 that Milinda discussed the last meal > with Nagasena. Milinda said: fruit when it turned to poison, gave rise to disease...> > Nagasena answered:< ...For that alms is full of virtue, full of advantage. > The gods, O king, shouted in joy and gladness at the thought: "This is the > last meal the Tathaagata will take," and communicated a divine power of > nourishment to that tender pork. And that was itself in good condition, > light, pleasant, full of flavour, and good for digestion. It was not because > of it that any sickness fell upon the Blessed One, but it was because of the > extreme weakness of his body, and because of the period of life he had to > live been exhausted, that the disease arose, and grew worse and worse....So > this was not, O king, the fault of the food that was presented, and you can > not impute any harm to it."> Hi Nina, This source doesn't clear up this matter nor answer the question I have raised. Nagasena, the elder monk who is the protagonist of "The Milinda Qustions", was speaking to King Milinda about something that he did not know first-hand. He wasn't present when the Buddha died and had no way of knowing its cause. He is simply going on the information from the commentaries to the suttas (which he learned being a monk), which again were composed after the fact and may not be factual. It is not beneficial to quote hearsay sources to either support or deny the factuality of other hearsay sources. The original sources themselves must be analyzed to determine the factuality of secondary sources. Metta, James 25808 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 0:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi Nina and all, As from the last day of September, Rob Eddison went off-line with no internet or email access for at least the next four months. Also stepped down from the mod. position on DL at that time. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom 25809 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 1:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi, Nina, > What do you think? I think what we have here is a possible linguistic ambiguity in the original Pali. > bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena In attempting to make sense of it, I took bhuttassa as dative, meaning "for eating." But that instrumetal could mean either: And (ca) with the suukaramaddava (suukaramaddavena) for eating (bhuttassa) or it could mean: And (ca) by the suukaramaddava (suukaramaddavena) for eating (bhuttassa) As you say, the instrumental is not as strong as the ablative in implying causation. So, it could be either a coincidental accompaniment (the Buddha got ill and coincidentally just happened to have eaten suukaramaddava) or causation (the Buddha got ill by the eating of the suukaramaddava). My belief that there is ambiguity in the original language is strengthened by the fact that both the commentator and the author of the Milindapañha feel the need to clarify this point. What's also interesting is that the Milindapañha devotes a whole story to the issue, as though it were quite controversial, and important (in the author's mind) for the listener to believe that the Buddha did not die *because* of the suukaramaddava. > I heard there is the first snow in Island. A foggy 13 C here in Vancouver, and the promised afternoon "sunny periods" haven't materialized yet! Derek. 25810 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 1:17pm Subject: Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Sarah, Thank you for correcting me on the cause of rupa. It's easier for me to wax eloquent on these subjects if I know someone will come along later and repair the damage. :-) -------------- S: > (Rupas are conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition, Ken. Those outside such as food or rocks are conditioned by temperature). ..... KH: >> It depends, not on how it is perceived, but on how it is conditioned (and is conditioned by either kusala kamma or akusala kamma). S: > i.e the experiencing of the object or vipaka cittas. Rupas [conditioned] by one of the 4 causes above - always an intricate set of conditions at work to include other support conditions too]. --------------- Now that you mention it, I have seen that explained before. I gather we can say that vipaka citta is conditioned by kamma; If it is conditioned by kusala kamma then it experiences a pleasant object -- akusala kamma, an unpleasant object. External sense objects (rupas), are conditioned by temperature; internal objects by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. That leaves only the cause of inherent pleasantness / unpleasantness to be explained. Is that what you are attributing to 'an intricate set of conditions?' Not as tidy as my version but more satisfactory :-) ---------------- S: > Btw, I could think of a very good reason to go from the Sunshine coast to the Gold coast for a holiday: quality time with Sue, your wife who never got her proper shower on the ranch and happily teaches whilst you check out the surf;-)) ------------- You are referring to the Balinese bathroom I thoughtfully incorporated into the family home. Why are women so unappreciative? Kind regards, Ken H 25811 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 1:24pm Subject: kamanita Dear All, Could anyone refresh my memory as to the name (and sutta ref) of the person who spent the night in a potters' (?) shed with the Buddha unaware of his true identity until after receiving a Dhamma talk? Ajahn Amaro mentions him as Kamanita - but I can't find a sutta reference by that name. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25812 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 1:42pm Subject: Re: kamanita Hi, Christine, It was Pukkusati in MN 140 I think. Derek. 25813 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Re: kamanita Hi Derek and all, Thanks for the ref. to MN 140. What a long sutta! Pukkusati was killed by a cow after the Dhamma talk given by the Buddha, and was reborn in the Pure Abodes. I think this happened to a number of people in the scriptures. There certainly were some very irate cows about in those days ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Cameron" wrote: > Hi, Christine, > > It was Pukkusati in MN 140 I think. > > Derek. 25814 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, Who else can understand the Buddha's teaching for you except you yourself?? You are a teacher right?? As a teacher, you teach your students and help them learn. But when they understand something, they learn and understand it for themselves, they reach their own understanding. You can teach and help them in their learning process, but you can't learn and understand it for them. Your understanding is not theirs. Likewise, when I am thirsty, I would drink some water myself to quench the thirst. Although others can help me to get the water, no one else can drink the water and quench the thirst for me. Is body conditioned?? Is intestine conditioned?? Is feces conditioned?? Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, 25815 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 4:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, That is your view, not the right view as taught by the Buddha. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] And what is this > Right View? That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas and rupa. Aside > from this, nothing does, all being concept only! [snip] 25816 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamanita Hi Chris, ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:20 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: kamanita > Pukkusati was > killed by a cow after the Dhamma talk given by the Buddha, and was > reborn in the Pure Abodes. I think this happened to a number of > people in the scriptures. There certainly were some very irate cows > about in those days ... Still true today--an Ozzie monk in NE Thailand (Ven. Issaro) explained to me that it's because 'they think weah TIGAHS!!!'--which he found quite hilarious. I was glad to have white rather than ochre robes... mike 25817 From: Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "Samatha/tranquillity is the name given to a very specific kind of kusala consciousness, so if it's not wholesome then it can't properly be called samatha/tranquillity as used in the texts." Hi Jon, I look at it the other way. If it is tranquility then it must be wholesome. So a tranquil sleep is a wholesome sleep. The tranquil sleep of an arahant and the tranquil sleep of a murderer are both wholesome. The same with the tranquility that arises after washing the dishes. Maybe you could give an example of what you think is tranquility that arises in everyday life. One problem with the wholesome aspect of tranquility is that "wholesomeness" is a volitional act that produces a conventionally desirable (by merchants and attorneys) kamma result but tranquility tends to be thought of as the absence of volitional activity. Any ideas on how to get around that problem? Larry 25818 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 5:53pm Subject: jhana/vipassana ---Dear group. A reply I posted on pali list: , > > 2. one can study all the pali, commentaries, and > subcommentaries until the end of time, but in the > final analysis, the only valid proof is the > confirmation from one's own realization experienced > directly. To this end, we have to carefully scrutinize > the canon to identify which parts are the most > authoritative and significant. For example, in the > early suttas, you would be hard pressed to find any > references to kasinas and 40 meditation objects. What > you do find is sutta passages that indicate that of > the 4 foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness of body > is the most important, and of the those, mindfulness > of breath is given special prominence. What this tells > me is that the serious cultivator should be spending a > fair amount of their effort engaged in mindfulness of > body, especially the breath. The early pali suttas > also say that if we carefully cultivate mindfulness of > breath, that it would naturally bring all 4 > foundations of mindfulness to fruition, would lead to > samatha, vipassana, single pointedness of mind and > induce jhanic absorption. What a wonderful tool! All > the study of the canon does not equal one minute of > peace, joy, tranquillity and insight that is easily > availabe to us from cultivating the breath. This can > be verified with one's own experience without even > obtaining jhanic absorption. __________ Dear , If one has the ability and inclination to develop anapanasati that is great. Still it is good to know that many conditions are needed to suceed in this: Some meditation subjects need a crosslegged posture, erect back, a very quiet place, solitude... This is all well explained in the visuddhimagga. In particular this applies to anapanasati - breath. Also we should know that anapanasati is singled out as being the most difficult of all the 40 objects.Here is a passage from the Visuddhimagga Viii 211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.." (we discussed this on pali list last year) We might be concentrating on the breath with subtle lobha (attachment) not realising that true samatha comes with alobha, detachment. In many suttas the Buddha was speaking to monks who had vast accumulations of panna and other parami. It is not, I believe, that the Buddha said that all should take up anapanasati. There are other types of samatha - such as Maranasati (meditation on death)- that are suitable for all times. For example the Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 Mahanama) says about Buddhanusati and Dhammanusati and several other samatha objects: "` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging crowded with children" In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: "as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days." In the satipatthana sutta the Buddha explains the four foundations of mindfulness. These can be cultivated in any position at any time. ____ : Talk about accumulations, or lack > thereof, is also baffling to me. Certainly some would > find seclusion and tranquillity easier to cultivate > than others, but if you don't accumulate now, when are > you going to accumulate? After you're dead? ____ It is relevant because this is a Buddha sasana - a very rare event. If one develops samatha bhavana that is wonderful. Indeed all of us have developed samatha and we must have succeeded in gaining jhana in countless lives. This is because of the vast time of samsara. However only very rarely has there been insight into anatta, into the lakkhana (characteristic) of elements. That is why some of us believe that we should give stress to this aspect of the Dhamma. The Buddha sasana will soon be extinguished and it will be a long time before another samma-sammbuddha arises. RobertK 25819 From: Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 6:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin etc., The main problem I see with your understanding of concept is the questionable status of compounds. If all compounds are only conventional then the khandhas are only conventional, because they always arise as compounds. If some compounds are ultimate dhammas then what is the criterion for this distinction? In the Visuddhimagga we learned that this criterion is "sabhava" meaning individual arising. The key concept here is "individual". "Individual" can't mean indivisible because it is applied to the khandhas. I think "individual" means clearly distinguishable. If so, anything that clearly arises is an ultimate dhamma. So excrement, a carriage, and a person would all qualify as ultimate dhammas because they clearly arise. What would not qualify is general ideas of excrement, carriage, person or the words "excrement" "carriage", or "person". These don't arise as external realities but only as objects of thinking (vitakka and vicara). Hence, they are concepts. As I see it there is a slight problem with the nama category. Nama cognizes an object. Concepts don't think so how can concept be nama? But one might also ask do feelings feel? A feeling is the expression of the activity of feeling. Similarly, concept is the expression of thinking. For this reason, concept is nama. Furthermore, we could say the name "carriage" is a convention but the reality of a carriage is what it is even if you have never seen one before and have no idea what it is. You could create a mental image of a carriage and ascribe infinite qualities to it, but this (concept) would always be only the shadow of the reality of a specific carriage that was made, lasts for a while, and falls apart. You might think we cannot realize anatta if compounds are ultimately real but the recognition of anatta is largely dependent on objectivity and the perception of impermanence, not the perception of indivisibility. Larry 25820 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 6:29pm Subject: Re: The Perfect Gift Dear Rob M, Thanks for the advice on giving blood, I hope it leads me to do it more often. For the reasons you have given, donating blood comes deceptively close to a situation where we can control the arising of dhammas. That is, to where there is no need for the right conditions for kusala action: we can 'just do it!' Kom, also, has written about dana. Like you, he described certain things we can do, confident that our motives are kusala. How could we have selfish motives for giving away something precious? I think the catch is that, most of the time, we simply don't do it. In my case, being a low-income earner, donating money is not a big option but I do have time. The local animal shelter needs volunteers to take dogs for a walk; the Meals on Wheels society needs drivers; there must be elderly neighbours who need help with shopping and lawn-mowing. I think about doing these things all the time but I don't do them. It's like the first time I tried to jump of the high diving tower -- I am frozen to the spot. The required conditions for kusala are not there. Have you been following Jon and Larry's conversation on 'concentration and samatha?' Jon wrote: "I think it's useful to consider aspects of daily life that do or could involve instances of this kind of kusala (i.e., samatha). Perhaps you wouldn't mind suggesting 1 or 2 yourself (real or hypothetical). Others may also be interested to ponder on this." Do you have any [almost foolproof] suggestions for samatha in the same way that you have for dana? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Blood is an anonymous gift. There is no way that the recipient could > know who the donor was. Donating blood is a pure act of giving, > without any other possible motives. > > 25821 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 7:12pm Subject: Re: The Perfect Gift Hello Ken, I agree that an untrained beginner couldn't dive off a high tower when frozen with fear - but if you wanted to eventually do that, you could learn to dive off the side of the pool first, then the starting blocks, then the low diving board, then the next height etc. etc. Isn't it possible to play a little with the conditions, accumulate the habit of diving from lower heights for a length of time before having the courage to go from the top of the tower? If the local animal shelter needs helpers, start with a phone call and find out when. Then promise them two or three hours once a week/month (or whatever). Or pop down for a look, and have the same conversation. Things are easier when you've made a commitment. HG - Is it possible that 'the required conditions for kusala are not there' is just, well, a good excuse? :-) (You know, when Rusty REALLY doesn't want to go outside on a cold night to investigate a noise in the yard, he holds his 'broken' paw up - that's his 'the required conditions for viriya (energy) are not there' speech)!:-):-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Rob M, > > Thanks for the advice on giving blood, I hope it leads > me to do it more often. > > For the reasons you have given, donating blood comes > deceptively close to a situation where we can control > the arising of dhammas. That is, to where there is no > need for the right conditions for kusala action: we > can 'just do it!' > > Kom, also, has written about dana. Like you, he > described certain things we can do, confident that our > motives are kusala. How could we have selfish motives > for giving away something precious? > > I think the catch is that, most of the time, we simply > don't do it. In my case, being a low-income earner, > donating money is not a big option but I do have time. > The local animal shelter needs volunteers to take dogs > for a walk; the Meals on Wheels society needs drivers; > there must be elderly neighbours who need help with > shopping and lawn-mowing. I think about doing these > things all the time but I don't do them. It's like the > first time I tried to jump of the high diving tower -- I > am frozen to the spot. The required conditions for > kusala are not there. > > Have you been following Jon and Larry's conversation on > 'concentration and samatha?' Jon wrote: "I think it's > useful to consider aspects of daily life that do or could > involve instances of this kind of kusala (i.e., samatha). > Perhaps you wouldn't mind suggesting 1 or 2 yourself > (real or hypothetical). Others may also be interested to > ponder on this." > > Do you have any [almost foolproof] suggestions for > samatha in the same way that you have for dana? > > Kind regards, > Ken H 25822 From: Date: Fri Oct 3, 2003 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/3/03 9:04:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Sukin etc., > > The main problem I see with your understanding of concept is the > questionable status of compounds. If all compounds are only conventional > then the khandhas are only conventional, because they always arise as > compounds. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: A khandha is definitely concept-only. It is a supposed aggregate/collection, and, ultimately, there is no such thing. The rupakhandha is nothing at all except conventionally. Rupas are phenomena that arise and cease. The so-called rupakhandha never arise or ceases, for it doesn't even exist. Nowhere is the so-called rupakhandha observed, only rupas are. There is the idea/notion/concept of rupakhandha, a well grounded concept based on actual events (or, better, there are concepts [plural] of such), but the only "collecting" done is done by the mind in forming the concept/concepts. Certainly it is okay to speak conventionally of the collection of all rupas, but if we push that too far, we have to ask where that collection is, and when it is observed, and the answer comes to be "nowhere and nowhen"! ----------------------------------------------------------. If some compounds are ultimate dhammas then what is the> > criterion for this distinction? In the Visuddhimagga we learned that > this criterion is "sabhava" meaning individual arising. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's an interesting translation of 'sabhava'. It is far less substantialist than the more usual "own being". ------------------------------------------------------------ The key concept> > here is "individual". "Individual" can't mean indivisible because it is > applied to the khandhas. I think "individual" means clearly > distinguishable. If so, anything that clearly arises is an ultimate > dhamma. > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Khandhas don't arise, only dhammas do. -------------------------------------------------------------- So excrement, a carriage, and a person would all qualify as> > ultimate dhammas because they clearly arise. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We can speak that way (of these "things" arising), but that is mere convention, and taken *literally* and *ultimately*, it is false. It is meaningful conventional speech to say, for example, that a newborn baby has arisen, but literally, no baby is ever born anywhere. The fact of the matter is that the conventional speech "A baby is born" is an awesomely mind-boggling shorthand for an impossibly complex body of speech that comes closer to expressing what actually has occurred, and, in fact, to spell out completely what literally has occurred might well take an entire lifetime, if, in fact, it is adequately expressible at all! Ultimately, all speech misses. ----------------------------------------------------------- What would not qualify is> > general ideas of excrement, carriage, person or the words "excrement" > "carriage", or "person". These don't arise as external realities but > only as objects of thinking (vitakka and vicara). Hence, they are > concepts. > > As I see it there is a slight problem with the nama category. Nama > cognizes an object. Concepts don't think so how can concept be nama? But > one might also ask do feelings feel? A feeling is the expression of the > activity of feeling. Similarly, concept is the expression of thinking. > For this reason, concept is nama. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: To me, nama is simply mental as opposed to physical. Included in the category 'mental' is any functioning which is, or is associated with, the taking of an object. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Furthermore, we could say the name "carriage" is a convention but the > reality of a carriage is what it is even if you have never seen one > before and have no idea what it is. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: When you "see a carriage," the reality consists of many, many visual discernments, acts of sa~n~na, and acts of mental reification (acts of wordless conceptualization which mentally group together various of these visual rupas as alleged individual entities, and these into a single "carriage," named or not.) You *never* see a carriage! You only see sights, and the mind grasps an alleged carriage. ------------------------------------------------------- > > You could create a mental image of a carriage and ascribe infinite > qualities to it, but this (concept) would always be only the shadow of > the reality of a specific carriage that was made, lasts for a while, and > falls apart. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We create such a shadow whenever we "see a carriage", even though we don't realize that. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > You might think we cannot realize anatta if compounds are ultimately > real but the recognition of anatta is largely dependent on objectivity > and the perception of impermanence, not the perception of > indivisibility. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: To realize anatta, we must come to see that no "things" exist at all. There are no entities, no substances, no cores, and no selves. There are namic and rupic events, including, as part of the stream of events, the superimposing of mental concept-constructs on the flow of experience, but even these elementary namic and rupic events are inseparable, interdependent, and empty of own-being. Even at the so-called paramattha dhamma level we impose separation and reification! What there actually *is* is beyond the power of thought and speech to describe, but with the uprooting of the three poisons, with the realization of that bottomless absence that is nibbana, there is full realization of anatta. From our perspective "below heaven", we are engaging largely in empty talk, but we fool ourselves into thinking that we know what we are talking about. There's only one way to come to know what we are talking about - that is to take the Buddha's medicine, to take it all, to the last drop, until we are cured. But then, of course, we will also know, first hand, that what is "real" is beyond all words and concepts, something shockingly different ... and happier (to borrow a usage from Walt Whitman). -------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25823 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 0:07am Subject: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Dear All, Most of us know the basics about kamma. "Beings are the owners of their kamma, heir to their kamma, born of their kamma, related through their kamma, and have their kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement." MN135 Nyanaponika says that "Vipaka 'karma-result' is any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc.) which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this, or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma. >snip<< Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma- samutthana) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipaka as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena." Accepting this, that whatever happens to a person is the result of their actions previously taken in either this life or a past one ... Is there anything else to do, other than endure, hope equanimity arises and recollect the above verse or similar? Enduring is O.K. in the short term, or even for a few days, or weeks - but what about if life and events are not good for a long, long time? Are the reactions one experiences as a result of unhappy experiences just creating more unhappy experiences in the future? What to do? {Sorry if this is a repeat of any question previously asked - there are about 50 Useful Posts on this topic and a search of the archived posts at escribe.com on "kamma" brings up 2717 posts, i.e. about one in eight dsg posts mentions kamma. So, it's quite daunting and unless one has a lot of time, there is almost too much info to go through.] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25824 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: The Perfect Gift Hi Christine, ----------- C: > Isn't it possible to play a little with the conditions, ----------- If that was even the slightest bit possible, then everything would be possible. If it was possible to say, "Let my intentions (cetana), be good, just this once," then it would be possible to say, "Let this consciousness (citta), live forever." But it isn't :-( -------------- C: > accumulate the habit of diving from lower heights for a length of time before having the courage to go from the top of the tower? -------------- Sure, in conventional reality, we do that sort of thing all the time. In conventional reality, control is taken as a basic fact of life. That's why the Dhamma is so hard to see. --------------- C: > If the local animal shelter needs helpers, start with a phone call and find out when. ---------------- That has been at the top of my 'to do' list for about three years. Rob M (and Kom if I remember correctly), have described certain conventional activities, such as blood donation, as readily identifiable signs of the absolute reality, dana. This is a rare thing because, ultimately, it's impossible for us to know the real motives -- the real dhammas -- involved at any one moment. My suggestion is that, even if (IF) it is possible for us uninstructed worldlings to identify a genuinely kusala course of action, that makes it is no more possible to follow it -- unless the conditions for following it are there. --------------- C: > HG - Is it possible that 'the required conditions for kusala are not there' is just, well, a good excuse? :-) --------------- Oh what a horrible thought! But yes, I suppose lazy people (of whom I am king), could use the Dhamma to get out of work. --------------- C: > (You know, when Rusty REALLY doesn't want to go outside on a cold night to investigate a noise in the yard, he holds his 'broken' paw up - that's his 'the required conditions for viriya (energy) are not there' speech)! :-):-) -------------- I have always had an affinity with animals -- Rusty sounds like my kinda guy. Kind regards, Ken H 25825 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: comment on the diary --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > > I am Janice Chung and I hope you > would still remember me! It was fascinating about the > diary you have written " Arrival and Cave Dweller" > > Here are some questions: > > Are there any Buddhists besides from you in Egypt? Are > there any Buddhist temples there? Do you go to the > temple everyday? > > So far, where have you explored in Cairo? I have been > to Cairo with my mom and cousin 2 years ago and it was > very amazing to learn about Egypt! > > That's all! > > Metta, > > Janice Hi Starkid Janice! Yes, I remember you; I hope you are doing well. I have done a little checking around and so far I haven't found any Buddhist temples here in Cairo. I don't know if I am the only Buddhist or not, but I seriously doubt that I am. Give me some more time and I may find something…I have only been here one and a half months. I have been to the pyramids and the Egyptian Museum and some other sights around Cairo. I have also been to the Red Sea where I went swimming in the sea and stayed at a private resort. Yes, Egypt is a very interesting place. It is amazing to go driving to downtown and to see these three huge pyramids behind the office buildings on the skyline; for a second you wonder if they are real. When you realize that they are real, it is mind-blowing to consider the history behind what you are seeing and where you are at. Sorry I don't have a lot of answers for you. Maybe I can have more details later. Metta, James 25826 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 2:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, If you are saying that the terms Citta, Cetasika and the corresponding idea of Rupa are not used anywhere in the Suttas, and if I agree with you for a moment, that the Suttas is the only reliable source of Buddha's teachings, then I agree that the Buddha didn't use these words. However, as I understand, these words are used in the Abhidhamma and commentaries to denote the very same realities as expressed in the concept of Ayatanas and the Five Khandhas. And the Buddha *did* teach about these! So if you would ignore for a moment the issue about `source' of the teachings as I am presently doing, would you not then agree that the Buddha's teachings point to the reality of what these concepts, be it nama/rupa, khandhas, ayatana or dhatus or whatever you want to call them in any language, point to? But I agree with you, when you say, "That is your view, not the right view as taught by the Buddha." Because, no matter how much I repeat and contemplate and consider the Buddha's words, I am only just scratching the surface. So I do not *really* know Right View as taught by the Buddha, what I am doing is mostly parroting what others say. However, it is not as desolate as it might seem, we start from where we are, and there being no other way. Besides, is there anything better?! ;-) One great thing about the Buddha's teachings is that it appeals to all levels of intelligence (Rt. View), and each level of understanding comes with it the corresponding level of detachment which is quite freeing! Considering this, I think we need to go slowly and be aware of when there is a tendency to overreach. So Victor, when you said elsewhere, that what the Buddha taught was Dukkha, the Cause, the Ending and the Path, implying that this was all that was needed to know. Can you please put into your own words what you understand by the Four Noble Truths? While I can intellectually (and this too, very vaguely) agree that the whole of the Buddha's teachings is contained in these four truths, I don't think that it is at all simple to understand. When I consider it, it is all just `thinking'. And I am not talking just from the aspect that they are Ariyan saccha and so putthujanas like you and me, can never really grasp it. But even if I were to consider, out of the three kinds of Dukkha, the more gross and obvious one, dukkha dukkha, I can only *think* about it and do not actually insight it. It is always in retrospect even though it seems like real time. And I think it a mistake to think that such kind of observation, is `direct' understanding, or even that it *can* lead to the higher levels. Firstly there is no choosing the object of contemplation; secondly, dukkha is a characteristic of `realities'. And what are those realities? The khandhas; ayatanas; and for me, the classification that I am more comfortable with, citta, cetasika and rupa. And it is not only that it makes perfect sense to me, that one needs to understand first these realities before understanding the Tilakkhana, but because dhamma is anatta, understanding arises because of conditions just like everything else. One cannot choose to accept or deny anything. But in discussing our viewpoints we can come to know where we may be wrong, and if denying something, we risk misunderstanding that which we accept, if not outright contradiction. So let me ask you Victor, when you say Dukkha, what do you understand by it? Do you deny the existence of the five khandhas when they arise? If not, what are they? Are people and things included in the five khandhas? If so, which khandha and how? Citta is vinnana kahandha, Cetasikas are sankhara khandhas with the exception of sanna and vedana, each being a khandha of its own, and rupa is rupa khandhas. Do you agree? Got to write two more posts, so I will stop here and wait for your response. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Sukin, > > That is your view, not the right view as taught by the Buddha. > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" > wrote: > > Hi Victor, > [snip] > And what is this > > Right View? That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas and rupa. > Aside > > from this, nothing does, all being concept only! > [snip] 25827 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 2:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry (and Howard), Larry, you said: The main problem I see with your understanding of concept is the questionable status of compounds. If all compounds are only conventional then the khandhas are only conventional, because they always arise as compounds. Sukin: I have always found some problem with understanding what the classification by way of Khandhas really implies. I once asked K. Sujin about it, and I think one thing she said was that to understand dhammas as khandhas required a very high level of panna. But we are talking about even the intellectual understanding here, and I am always confused when the terms, heaps, compound, groups and aggregates are used. And my understanding of pali is too little to allow the word `khandha' itself to shed any more light. But I do hear quite often on this list, that these khandhas are just those same realities as the other classifications as nama/rupa, ayatanas and dhatus. At the same time, I also hear that these different ways of classification appeals differently to different people, and so I interpret khandhas within the framework of my understanding about citta, cetasika and rupa. Therefore I am not sure if `compound' used by you is the same as what `khandhas' really imply, but at the same time, I am not inclined to view it as Howard does, that it is a `concept'. At this point I will just have to admit general ignorance. Larry: If some compounds are ultimate dhammas then what is the criterion for this distinction? In the Visuddhimagga we learned that this criterion is "sabhava" meaning individual arising. The key concept here is "individual". "Individual" can't mean indivisible because it is applied to the khandhas. I think "individual" means clearly distinguishable. Sukin: I like your conclusion that "individual" means clearly distinguishable". It reminds me vaguely of a post Jon wrote not too long back, about characteristic of dhammas being apprehended by panna, not as individual namas and rupas, but via many arising and fallings. And I think the important point to always keep in mind, especially for us Abhidhamma enthusiasts, is `what *appears* is what can be known by panna'. No need to think about number of cittas and cetasikas. Larry: If so, anything that clearly arises is an ultimate dhamma. So excrement, a carriage, and a person would all qualify as ultimate dhammas because they clearly arise. What would not qualify is general ideas of excrement, carriage, person or the words "excrement" "carriage", or "person". These don't arise as external realities but only as objects of thinking (vitakka and vicara). Hence, they are concepts. Sukin: I think as Rob M. explained in his post to Christine, the `unreality' is apprehended well before the stage of naming process. Vitakka (with vicara or not?) accompanies all the cittas except for the sense door vinnana. I will say a little more about this in my post to Howard in another thread, I wish you to refer to that too. Larry: As I see it there is a slight problem with the nama category. Nama cognizes an object. Concepts don't think so how can concept be nama? But one might also ask do feelings feel? A feeling is the expression of the activity of feeling. Similarly, concept is the expression of thinking. For this reason, concept is nama. Sukin: Feeling can be known to have certain characteristics, so do vitakka and vicara. But just as in the case of feeling, only panna of satipatthana can know the visesa lakkhana of it, so too the lakkhana of vittaka and vicara can be known. And so are you saying that to know the characteristic of vitakka and vicara is through knowing concept!? Larry: Furthermore, we could say the name "carriage" is a convention but the reality of a carriage is what it is even if you have never seen one before and have no idea what it is. Sukin: Sanna does the recognition and marking, and this works with vitakka and vicara even if one were blind and suddenly made to see. I think. Larry: You could create a mental image of a carriage and ascribe infinite qualities to it, but this (concept) would always be only the shadow of the reality of a specific carriage that was made, lasts for a while, and falls apart. Sukin: `Shadow of realities' or `shadow of a shadow' depends on the level of panna, I think. ;-) Larry: You might think we cannot realize anatta if compounds are ultimately real but the recognition of anatta is largely dependent on objectivity and the perception of impermanence, not the perception of indivisibility. Sukin: Talking at the intellectual level, I think if one does not appreciate the distinction between ultimate realities and conventional reality, impermanence too cannot be properly appreciated. As conceptual reality can only give rise to conceptual idea of impermanence. A `thing' such as a chariot, which is seen to exist up until the time that it is destroyed by various elements, can only give rise to inferential and deductive idea of impermanence. I realize that you are talking about momentary experience and what you are saying is that `chariot' arises and falls immediately, but what if this is not the case, and that the chariot you perceive to have arisen is of the same status as the one that lasts for 30, 40 years?! If so, this is not the understanding which is unique to the Buddha's teachings, but that of most other religions and philosophies, including science. The impermanence which the Buddha wished us to understand is tied to the understanding of anatta and dukkha, which is part of every momentary experience. Even this cannot come by thinking or even much developed panna of the level of satipatthana, before Stream Entry. But at least knowing `theoretically' that this is the case, is important, otherwise I believe it can lead to wrong practice and wrong view. Do you see any place for agreement Larry? Metta, Sukin. 25828 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Howard (and Sarah), Hope you don't mind my butting in. I have some thoughts but they are not so clear and convincing enough, and so I would like to know what you think of it. Howard, sometimes I get the impression that what you say about the process of `thinking' or `concept making', that this process involves an act of intelligence which even panna does not have. This is when you say that they "sum up certain experiences" or "make sense of" experiences. This seems to imply also, that this process is on the `initial level' before kilesas come in to distort the perception, the same in case of both putthujanas and arahattas. My understanding is that sanna, vitakka and vicara simply come in to play performing their function. True, that there are ultimate realities constantly hitting the senses giving this process of `concept making' to seem *more* real here, than when imagination takes place. So a putthujana and an arahatta will both agree to the conventional status of say, `Sarah is sitting in front of the computer'. However, I think rupas out there arise and fall because of their own conditions. It would be a mistake to imply that their existence depend on our perception. Similarly their `objective' status is not what it is, when we think we are making `sense of it'. The exact conditions for their arising and falling is beyond any one's ability to understand, except for the Buddha. And even here, "visible object" is just *one* of the many conditions which make up that reality out there. *All other conditions are dark*. Can you dig that?! Yet we worldlings, tend to base our knowledge of reality on just this one element! What I think is the basic difference between the putthujana and the arahatta's perception, is that for us it is informed by sanna and citta vipallasa. I think this comes into play immediately when anything is perceived. For the arahatta, there is no perversion of sanna and citta, so his concept of Sarah is not distorted as ours, I think. Does this make any sense? Metta, Sukin. > =========================== > A brief comment, bowing ever so slightly in your direction. I still > maintain that concepts are simply ideas, and ideas are mind-door objects, and > are namas. But, and this is a big 'but', concepts are not nearly so simple and > unitary as a perfunctory, unexamined observation would suggest. For example, to > say that we have an idea/concept of 'computer' is not quite so. Many > *differing*, and mostly quite vague, 'computer' ideas arise in the mind. One such idea > is a mental summing up of *certain* experiences, generally of complex streams > of experiences. and other such are summings up (and summonings up!) of yet > *other* such experiential streams. All of these embody experiences of a variety > of sorts including visual, tactile, and other types, and frequently "topped > off" by, if not a verbal expression, then at least by an impulse to same > reflecting a mental unification. Ideas and concepts are quite complex, difficult to > grasp, multi-formed, multi-layered, and elusive (and illusive!) - but they > *are* mind-door objects. > I find unacceptable the notion that penetration with wisdom of any > mind-door object is impossible. An arahant, or certainly a Buddha, would have the > wisdom to understand fully all the nuances and aspects of every arising > concept he encounters. Even we poor worldings can grasp many of the multi-layered > aspects of our concepts, observing how, for example, "the" tree concept is > built of other concepts such as bark, roots, branches (and branching), leaves, > etc, and associated notions of birds setting on branches, of bird nests etc, and > a further grasping of how, for example, the bark-concept is built of concepts 25829 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: About Buddhism Hi Starkid Philip! Well, I see you have a lot more questions. Here go some answers: 1. How did you know that I should be nice to my sister and my teachers? Did anyone told you that I am being bad to them? Answer: No, no one told me you are being bad to them. I just had a feeling I should tell you that. I can't explain why. 2. Why did your luggage end up in France, when it should be in Cairo, Egypt? Answer: I went through France on my way to Cairo. They failed to put one of my cargo containers through at the France airport…so it was stuck there. When Air France in Cairo contacted Air France in France, the luggage was then sent through. This happens sometimes…it is one of the hazards of flying 3. Where are you staying now? In a friend's house or in a hotel? Answer: I am living in another apartment in Nasr City, within walking distance of the school where I teach. 4. Why do monks have to shave their heads and memorise the same words every day, and they must live in a monestary and they can't live like ordinary people? Please tell me. Answer: Philip, it isn't necessary to be a monk to follow the Buddha's teaching, but it is better to be a monk. The Buddha said in the Anguttara Nikaya 17: "There are two kinds of happiness, O monks. The happiness of the home life and the happiness of monkhood. But the happiness of monkhood is the higher of the two. The happiness of the senses and the happiness of renunciation. But the happiness of renunciation is the higher of the two…" Monks do all of those things because it brings them a higher happiness than what you and I experience in the home life. It might seem like they would be less happy, but it is actually the opposite. 5. Is Buddhism your first religion? Answer: I think you are asking: "Was Buddhism my first religion?" No, my first religion was actually Taoism…when I was 15 until 18 years old. When I was 19 I found that I needed to practice meditation to truly discover the mysteries of Taoism, so I became Buddhist. There isn't a lot of difference between the two…except for meditation. 6. Actually, is the Buddha male or female? Answer: The Buddha was male. 7. Is the Buddha a person? Answer: Yes, the Buddha was a person, a human being. 8. Is the Buddha as popular as soccer players such as David Beckham? Answer: I would say that the Buddha is more popular than David Beckham. David Beckham doesn't have his own religion with millions of devout followers. However, there is a Buddhist temple in Thailand that has a gold statue of David Beckham, so I guess you never know what the future might bring! ;-) Thanks for answering the questions. You are very welcome. Take care and be nice to your sister and teachers. Metta, James 25830 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: .. > If it is tranquility then it must be > wholesome. So a tranquil sleep is a wholesome sleep. The tranquil > sleep of an arahant and the tranquil sleep of a murderer are both > wholesome. > The same with the tranquility that arises after washing the dishes. Well it depends on whose definition of 'tranquillity' we are working with -- our own or the Buddha's ;-)). As I read the texts, the Buddha goes to some lengths to explain why conventional ideas of qualities or values such as understanding, worthiness, wealth, importance, desirability, effort, achievement, concentration and the like (and tranquillity) do not conform to the model of those qualities or values as they need to be understood for the purpose of developing the path. Besides, we each have different ideas as to what these things mean in their conventional sense (ideas that are of course coloured by our own particular ignorance and wrong view). According to the teachings, there is no real/actual tranquillity at a moment of akusala, since every akusala mind-moment is accompanied by the mental factor of restlessness. This would include of course the *apparent* tranquillity that accompanies instances of akusala such as the satisfaction of a job well done (your example of finishing washing the dishes) which as we know from our theoretical understanding of the teachings does not fall within any of the kinds of kusala enumerated in the texts and which, like it or not, must involve akusala of some kind or another. I believe it helps to have a clear understanding at a theoretical level of the kinds of kusala action as spelt out in the texts (and which therefore involve tranquillity), and how they differ from the kinds of akusala action (that are accompanied by restlessness) including the subtle attachment that may give the appearance of tranquillity. Without this the task of correctly recognising the moral quality of the present mind-state is considerably more difficult that it would otherwise be. > Maybe you could give an example of what you think is tranquility > that arises in everyday life. Examples of possible instances of wholesome mind-moments of one kind or another that may arise naturally in daily life (i.e., outside the context of any notion of 'having more kusala') could include*: - being considerate of another's convenience (e.g. refraining from disturbing) - pleasantness of manner towards others (e.g. in addressing someone, refraining from sarcasm, observing normal pleasantries and courtesies) - any action prompted by thoughts of concern for the other's welfare (for example, offering helpful information or advice, offering to assist another in doing a task) - reflecting on general dhamma issues that come up on the list, such as the topic we are now discussing (to mention just one) or, and I think this is important also, any occasion of noticing the lack of any such qualities/states and the presence of akusala instead (and, especially, how akusala is the norm for us in our daily life). For obvious reasons, the kusala that arises in our daily lives is likely to be weak and so not readily apparent as being any different from the general level of akusala that constitutes the major part of our daily mental activity. But with a proper theoretical basis of what is and what isn't kusala we have a better chance of recognising each for what it is as and when it is present. Jon PS > One problem with the wholesome aspect of tranquility is that > "wholesomeness" is a volitional act that produces a conventionally > desirable (by merchants and attorneys) kamma result but tranquility > tends to be thought of as the absence of volitional activity. Any > ideas on how to get around that problem? Again, it's a question of 'conventional perception' vs. 'the way things are' as taught by the Buddha. The significance of samatha being kusala action of the kind that is *completed through the mind-door* (as we have been discussing in recent posts in this thread) is that it is of such a nature and strength that no action through the door of body or speech is required for it to be 'complete', i.e., to have achieved the potential to bring result. Note, however, that even where action through body or speech door is required for the action to be 'completed', it is still the mental factor of 'intention' that constitutes the kamma, not the accompanying body/speech door action. PPS The nature of the kamma result of wholesome action is said to be inherently 'pleasant', not inherently 'desirable'. 25831 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Dear Christine, Kamma is one of most interesting Dhammas. It is like a seed. When conditions favour a plant will arise from that seed. When not, some die out. How is it created? Are there any creators? There are no outside devine creators. All wilful ( delibrate, intended ) actions have Cetana Cetasika. This Cetasika is the chief in creation of Kamma. Cetana is a mental factor. This Cetasika always arise with any Citta. But Kamma arise from Cetasika Cetana which arises at the time of arising of Javanacittas which are not of Arahats. There are endless Kamma. But at a time one Kamma dominates. As soon as Arahats' Cuticitta ( the last Citta in Samsara )arises all Kamma die out without any residual Kamma. Those non-arising Kamma become Ahosi Kamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > Most of us know the basics about kamma. > "Beings are the owners of their kamma, heir to their kamma, born of > their kamma, related through their kamma, and have their kamma as > their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in > terms of coarseness & refinement." MN135 > Nyanaponika says that "Vipaka 'karma-result' is any karmically > (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful > feeling, sense-consciousness, etc.) which is the result of wholesome > or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech > or mind, done either in this, or some previous life. Totally wrong > is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result > of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome > or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being > in reality itself karma. >snip<< Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma- > samutthana) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipaka as this > term may be applied only to mental phenomena." > > Accepting this, that whatever happens to a person is the result of > their actions previously taken in either this life or a past one ... > Is there anything else to do, other than endure, hope equanimity > arises and recollect the above verse or similar? Enduring is O.K. in > the short term, or even for a few days, or weeks - but what about if > life and events are not good for a long, long time? Are the > reactions one experiences as a result of unhappy experiences just > creating more unhappy experiences in the future? What to do? > > {Sorry if this is a repeat of any question previously asked - there > are about 50 Useful Posts on this topic and a search of the archived > posts at escribe.com on "kamma" brings up 2717 posts, i.e. about one > in eight dsg posts mentions kamma. So, it's quite daunting and > unless one has a lot of time, there is almost too much info to go > through.] > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25832 From: Bongkojpriya Yugala Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (Christine) Hi, Christine, May I butt in and add a bit? Yes, it usually appears that a lot of akusala vipaka happens at one time, but that is all just thinking and "stories", as Ivan (here in Bkk) likes to call them, the stories that the mind "interprets" in a mind-door process. Basically, akusala and kusala vipaka come through the 6 doorways in the form of rupa aramana through the 5 sense doors, and dhamma aramana (excuse spelling) through the mind door. While this is known to me at the pariyatti level, it is only when satipatthana arises that a fuller understanding of vipaka can arise, likewise increasing the understanding that those aramanas are not self. But until that understanding arises, I am like you: I get frustrated with akusala vipaka and ask the same question: do I just grin and bear it? This is still sakkaya ditthi (self view) because it still is, "my akusala vipaka." But, if after dosa arises over akusala vipaka, a moment of contemplation then arises that reminds "me" of the pariyatti learning, then the dosa just dissapates. This is gradually happening more and more, each one conditioning the next. At this stage, "I'm" content if such contemplation arises, even if it is not a true satipatthana moment. metta, Betty ________________________________________________________ > Subject: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? > > Dear All, > > Most of us know the basics about kamma. > "Beings are the owners of their kamma, heir to their kamma, born of > their kamma, related through their kamma, and have their kamma as > their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in > terms of coarseness & refinement." MN135 > Nyanaponika says that "Vipaka 'karma-result' is any karmically > (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful > feeling, sense-consciousness, etc.) which is the result of wholesome > or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech > or mind, done either in this, or some previous life. Totally wrong > is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result > of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome > or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being > in reality itself karma. >snip<< Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma- > samutthana) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipaka as this > term may be applied only to mental phenomena." > > Accepting this, that whatever happens to a person is the result of > their actions previously taken in either this life or a past one ... > Is there anything else to do, other than endure, hope equanimity > arises and recollect the above verse or similar? Enduring is O.K. in > the short term, or even for a few days, or weeks - but what about if > life and events are not good for a long, long time? Are the > reactions one experiences as a result of unhappy experiences just > creating more unhappy experiences in the future? What to do? > > {Sorry if this is a repeat of any question previously asked - there > are about 50 Useful Posts on this topic and a search of the archived > posts at escribe.com on "kamma" brings up 2717 posts, i.e. about one > in eight dsg posts mentions kamma. So, it's quite daunting and > unless one has a lot of time, there is almost too much info to go > through.] > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25833 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 10/4/03 5:29:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Howard, sometimes I get the impression that what you say about the > process of `thinking' or `concept making', that this process involves an > act of intelligence which even panna does not have. This is when you > say that they "sum up certain experiences" or "make sense of" > experiences. This seems to imply also, that this process is on the `initial > level' before kilesas come in to distort the perception, the same in case > of both putthujanas and arahattas. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't recall using the "make sense of" phrase, but in any case: I believe that 95% of our concept forming is below the level of conscious awareness, that it is a subliminal process for the most part, and that it is infected at the root by the tendency towards reification. -------------------------------------------------- > My understanding is that sanna, vitakka and vicara simply come in to > play performing their function. True, that there are ultimate realities > constantly hitting the senses giving this process of `concept making' to > seem *more* real here, than when imagination takes place. So a > putthujana and an arahatta will both agree to the conventional status of > say, `Sarah is sitting in front of the computer'. > > However, I think rupas out there arise and fall because of their own > conditions. It would be a mistake to imply that their existence depend on > our perception. Similarly their `objective' status is not what it is, when > we think we are making `sense of it'. The exact conditions for their > arising and falling is beyond any one's ability to understand, except for > the Buddha. And even here, "visible object" is just *one* of the many > conditions which make up that reality out there. *All other conditions > are dark*. Can you dig that?! Yet we worldlings, tend to base our > knowledge of reality on just this one element! ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: As I understand it, (apparently separate) conditions of all sorts arise and cease as aspects of a reality that we as worldlings never get a true picture of, because our view is distorted and darkened by the defilements, most particularly avijja. What constitutes our world of experience is, for the most part, mind-constructed. But this world of experience of ours is not the reality. As to your phrase "the reality out there," that presupposes a view that I don't accept. Whatever "reality" is - and I see it as indescribable - it is neither "out there" nor "in here" nor anything in between. -------------------------------------------------------- > > What I think is the basic difference between the putthujana and the > arahatta's perception, is that for us it is informed by sanna and citta > vipallasa. I think this comes into play immediately when anything is > perceived. For the arahatta, there is no perversion of sanna and citta, > so his concept of Sarah is not distorted as ours, I think. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We agree on this. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this make any sense? > > ========================= Sure. It all makes sense. (And a I agree with a drop of it, too! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25834 From: Larry Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 8:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Howard, Do you think rupa is indivisible, that the experience of rupa arises as an indivisible dot of experience in a linear series, and that enlightenment opens the door to limitless sensual delight in this dot? The mahayana made a mistake in thinking the analysis of compounds into parts exposes the falacy of the whole. The analysis of compounds into parts exposes the falacy of glue. Things fall apart. The glue is concept but dhammas nevertheless come together to form larger dhammas and then dissolve. Compounds are flimsy, unreliable, dukkha. Compounds arise before enlightenment and compounds arise after enlightenment. Analysis is conceptual so of course analysis cannot be found outside the body. To analyze an external phenomenon and say it cannot be found in analysis is wrong reasoning. Analysis is a means to disillusionment but analysis isn't a substitute for nibbana. To think that by conceptualizing experience experience can be turned into nibbana is what the gods think and can be a wrong turn for the jhana practitioner. Don't become a god , Howard. Stay human; that's your best bet. Larry 25835 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/4/03 11:59:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Do you think rupa is indivisible, that the experience of rupa arises > as an indivisible dot of experience in a linear series, and that > enlightenment opens the door to limitless sensual delight in this dot? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with the first clause (except possibly for the connotation-loaded term 'dot'), but take no position with respect to the second clause except to indicate my total nonacceptance of nibbana as consisting in "limitless sensual delight." --------------------------------------------------- > > The mahayana made a mistake in thinking the analysis of compounds > into parts exposes the falacy of the whole. The analysis of compounds > into parts exposes the falacy of glue. Things fall apart. The glue is > concept but dhammas nevertheless come together to form larger dhammas > and then dissolve. Compounds are flimsy, unreliable, dukkha. > Compounds arise before enlightenment and compounds arise after > enlightenment. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mahayana picked up on the *Theravadin* use of analysis into parts as a technique for grasping anatta. See the carriage metaphor in the Milindapanha. You can find it at the beginning of that work at the web site: http://web.singnet.com.sg/~rjp31831/nagasena.htm In this work, Nagasena uses the chariot as metaphor for himself, Nagasena. At one point, he says most explicitly the following: "Then, ask as I may, I can discover no chariot at all. This "chariot" is just a mere sound. But what is the real chariot? Your Majesty has told a lie, has spoken a falsehood! There is really no chariot! ..." ---------------------------------------------------- > > Analysis is conceptual so of course analysis cannot be found outside > the body. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? ;-) -------------------------------------------------- To analyze an external phenomenon and say it cannot be > > found in analysis is wrong reasoning. Analysis is a means to > disillusionment but analysis isn't a substitute for nibbana. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. No substitute at all! --------------------------------------------------- To think > > that by conceptualizing experience experience can be turned into > nibbana is what the gods think and can be a wrong turn for the jhana > practitioner. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Do you infer from all that I've written that I am recommending conceptualizing experience? I am recommending seeing through our illusions, and this is *not* accomplished by further conceptualization, but by "looking" with great care and letting go! -------------------------------------------------- Don't become a god , Howard. Stay human; that's your > > best bet. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I have no godly aspirations, Larry! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25836 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 10:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, I am saying the view "That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas and rupa. Aside from this, nothing does, all being concept only!" is your view, not the right view as the Buddha taught. What is right view? "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html Please also refer to Majjhima Nikaya 9 Sammaditthi Sutta The Discourse on Right View http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html regarding right view. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 25837 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi Derek, bhuttassa: bhutta means: what has been eaten , or having eaten or, the person who has eaten, bhuttar, see PED. It is not for the eating. Difficult text but we can understand with the help of different commentaries. What is Duroiselle saying about the intrumentalis? Any more details? Nina. op 03-10-2003 22:05 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@y...: > > But that instrumetal could mean either: > > And (ca) > with the suukaramaddava (suukaramaddavena) > for eating (bhuttassa) > > or it could mean: > > And (ca) > by the suukaramaddava (suukaramaddavena) > for eating (bhuttassa) 25838 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Hi James, Yes, the sutta text itself is most important, but we need help from the ancient commentaries. We just cannot get the meaning at times. Or, after reading the Co I find there are points I overlooked when I was reading the sutta. I am glad they are still available. And better still, we should compare different commentaries. Ven. Bodhi in his transl of the Co to the "Great Discourse on Causation", in the Appendix speaks about the Abhidhamma method and the Suttanta method of the Dependent Arising, and mentions: "but the commentaries, ever aiming at maximum precision in their exegesis of sutta formulations...etc. " I did not read much Co, but from what I learnt I appreciate the reminders Buddhaghosa gives many, many times about the aggregates, elements, sense-bases, because these are realities of the present moment. He also often stresses that in the sutta the message is: being in the cycle (vatta) and not being in the cycle (vivatta). This points to the goal: to be freed from the cycle. I myself can easily overlook the message contained in each sutta: there are realities now and we take these for self. Be aware of them, do not be negligent. Otherwise we shall never, never reach the goal. Nina. op 03-10-2003 21:24 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > He is simply going on the > information from the commentaries to the suttas (which he learned > being a monk), which again were composed after the fact and may not > be factual. It is not beneficial to quote hearsay sources to either > support or deny the factuality of other hearsay sources. The > original sources themselves must be analyzed to determine the > factuality of secondary sources. 25839 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 10:26am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 15 B Co, 15 B: vuttampi ceta.m -- The Buddha spoke as follows: ``aanaapaanassatii yassa, paripu.n.naa subhaavitaa. ³The person who fully develops Mindfulness of Breathing, anupubba.m paricitaa, yathaa buddhena desitaa. Who gradually accumulates it as taught by the Buddha, soma.m loka.m pabhaaseti, abbhaa muttova candimaa''ti.. He brightens the world as the moon that is free from clouds.² (theragaa 548; pa.ti ma 1.1.60) -- ima.m mahapphalata.m sampassamaano thero saddhivihaarika.m tattha niyojeti. Since the Elder considered that Mindfulness of Breathing was of such great fruit he exhorted his co-resident to develop it. iti bhagavaa ruupakamma.t.thaana.m, thero aanaapaanassatinti Thus, the Blessed One taught the meditation subject of materiality, and the Elder taught Mindfulness of Breathing. ubhopi kamma.t.thaana.m aacikkhitvaa gataa, raahulabhaddo vihaareyeva ohiino. When both of them had explained these subjects, they went away, and Lucky Rahula was left behind in the dwelling place. bhagavaa tassa ohiinabhaava.m jaanantopi neva attanaa khaadaniiya.m bhojaniiya.m gahetvaa agamaasi, The Blessed One, even though he knew that Rahula was left behind, did not go himself with hard and soft food, na aanandattherassa hatthe pesesi, nor did he send it through the Elder Aananda, na pasenadimahaaraajaanaathapi.n.dikaadiina.m sa~n~na.m adaasi. nor did he inform King Pasenadi, Anaathapi.n.dika or others. sa~n~naamattaka~nhi labhitvaa te kaajabhatta.m abhihareyyu.m. Had they only been informed, they would have brought food with a carrying pole. yathaa ca bhagavaa, eva.m saariputtattheropi na ki~nci akaasi. Just as the Blessed One, the Elder Sariputta did not take any action either. raahulatthero niraahaaro chinnabhatto ahosi. Rahula went without food, he had to go hungry. ***** English: The Buddha spoke as follows: ³The person who fully develops Mindfulness of Breathing, Who gradually accumulates it as taught by the Buddha, He brightens the world as the moon that is free from clouds.² Since the Elder considered that Mindfulness of Breathing was of such great fruit he exhorted his co-resident to develop it. Thus, the Blessed One taught the meditation subject of matter, and the Elder taught Mindfulness of Breathing. When both of them had explained these subjects, they went away, and Lucky Rahula was left behind in the dwelling place. The Blessed One, even though he knew that Rahula was left behind, did not go himself with hard and soft food, nor did he send it through the Elder Aananda, nor did he inform King Pasenadi, Anaathapi.n.dika or others. Had they only been informed, they would have brought food with a carrying pole. Just as the Blessed One, the Elder Sariputta did not take any action either. Rahula went without food, he had to go hungry. ***** Nina. 25840 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 10:26am Subject: the four discriminations, patisambhidas Dear Sarah and Larry, just an evaluation of the transl of Tiika. For this subject I see that many passages are overlapping with Dispeller of Delusion (Co to Vibhanga, Book of Analysis) II, p. 126, ff. I can type from this work relevant passages, because not everyone has it. When I see an interesting extra detail in the Tiika (I am reading it), I can translate it. But I am not sure whether many are interested in the Tiika. It is quite a lot of work to translate it. Sarah, when you go to Myanmar, I wonder whether you or Jonothan have time to ask a Pali expert about nirutti, discr. of language. I read that this discr. . Also that a name arises together with a reality, like feeling. It must have a name. A name arises?? I think of the relevant Atthasalini passage about nama and name. Is this a specific philosophy of language in the olden times? It escapes me. You also quoted about the Magadha language. Difficult to understand. We can leave it, but I notice that it keeps coming back. It will when we soon get to the four discriminations. Larry, you also have the Path of Discrimination, see Ch XVI. Actuality is the transl of truth, and idea is the transl of dhamma. I have the Co in Thai. Nina 25841 From: sukinder Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 10:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Howard, ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't recall using the "make sense of" phrase, but in any case: I believe that 95% of our concept forming is below the level of conscious awareness, that it is a subliminal process for the most part, and that it is infected at the root by the tendency towards reification. -------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Believe it or not, this is one thing I was thinking about this evening when I was out buying groceries for my wife. I thought, "Did I understand Howard's meaning of "summing up" right? And did he use the phrase "make sense of" at anytime? And did he imply in his suggestions, a factor of 'intelligence' or am I reading that into his statement?" :-) But you do say that whatever is involved otherwise, that the process is 'infected at the root by the tendency towards reification'. When I think in terms of the putthujanas, I can imagine that sanna, vitakka and vicara is conditioned by avijja, so the reification may be just what avijja would allow. But I do believe that the ariyan also conceptualizes, and this I cannot attribute to avijja. So here I am stuck. However, I can also imagine sanna, vitakka and vicara working in such a way, as for example right now, the computer that I see, that it is only a matter of moving the attention around and picking up the signs and particulars, not necessarily *needing* to create a recognizable whole, but does or doesn't do so based on many other factors, the main of which is the continually arising visible object. How does this sound to you? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: As I understand it, (apparently separate) conditions of all sorts arise and cease as aspects of a reality that we as worldlings never get a true picture of, because our view is distorted and darkened by the defilements, most particularly avijja. What constitutes our world of experience is, for the most part, mind-constructed. But this world of experience of ours is not the reality. As to your phrase "the reality out there," that presupposes a view that I don't accept. Whatever "reality" is - and I see it as indescribable - it is neither "out there" nor "in here" nor anything in between. -------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I understand your phenomenalist position and from one point of view, I think it is quite valid. Especially if we refer to Buddha's advice to Bahiya that "in the seen, there is only the seen etc." However, Bahiya was ripe and I don't believe he would deny the existence of 'rupa out there' if questioned about it, ie, after he reached enlightenment. Because part of what it takes to become enlightened, is the firm understanding of conditions and so in the case of seeing and visible object, the two are clearly distinguishable. But of course, in my own case, I cannot make this distinction in any way except by 'thinking' about it. I do not even have a strong basis to make direct inference, since I can only 'think' that there is seeing consciousness and infer that there must be an outside object apprehended. However, since we all have to start with 'theory', I think it is quite important to get it right. If indeed, there are objects out there, then we shouldn't deny it. It can be expected during the day some experiences would give the consciousness end a greater sense of reality, at another time, the outside objects would seem more real. Also it will be the case that we rely on different approaches at different times to make sense of experience. And when it comes to reflecting on the teachings, at some moments the rememberance about the Bahiya Sutta may be most relevant and under such circumstance it will be a mistake to wonder about rupas out there. However, there will be times when for example one must distinguish between say the importance of a 'dog' and a 'handbag', would you not have to consider then that one is just rupa conditioned by heat and the other is one conditioned by citta, kamma and ahara as well? What is the status of those objects during such reflections aside from being pannatti? It may be true that the practice (satipatthana) involves just this mind and its objects, so in a way there is no place for infering either "it is "out there" or "in here" or anything in between" as you say. But the practice involves first "pariyatti", and the correct pariyatti does not deny outside rupa. I think one needs to make a distinction between pariyatti as pariyatti and the subjective experience of the advanced panna. This latter idea may be a part of the theory, but if this implies the rejection of other 'correct' theory, then I think one risks in the long run, of encouraging doubt. And doubting the existence of rupa out there as being conditioned by various factors, is in my opinion quite unhealthy. Of course part of the theory is also to distinguish between 'thinking' and direct understanding. So one does not go around trying to prove to oneself or others, the existence of rupa outside, this would be silly. One just knows what is being experienced right now, and here in the experience, there is only the experience and nothing more. :-) But if the practice is right, then this is supposed to lead one day to understand rupa as rupa and nama as nama, both quite distinct and each condition the other by different ways. Rupa condition nama quite differently from nama conditioning rupa. Does this make sense? I just had the thought that I should save this letter and wait until morning to post it after reading through it again. But since I can always blame any mistake in reasoning on my drowsiness and consequent murkiness of mind, I will send this off and await your reply. :-) Metta, Sukin. 25842 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 10/4/03 1:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@k... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't recall using the "make sense of" phrase, but in any case: > I > believe that 95% of our concept forming is below the level of conscious > awareness, that it is a subliminal process for the most part, and that > it is infected > at the root by the tendency towards reification. > -------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Believe it or not, this is one thing I was thinking about this evening > when I was out buying groceries for my wife. I thought, "Did I > understand Howard's meaning of "summing up" right? And did he use the > phrase "make sense of" at anytime? And did he imply in his suggestions, > a factor of 'intelligence' or am I reading that into his statement?" :-) > But you do say that whatever is involved otherwise, that the process is > 'infected at the root by the tendency towards reification'. When I think > in terms of the putthujanas, I can imagine that sanna, vitakka and > vicara is conditioned by avijja, so the reification may be just what > avijja would allow. But I do believe that the ariyan also > conceptualizes, and this I cannot attribute to avijja. So here I am > stuck. > However, I can also imagine sanna, vitakka and vicara working in such a > way, as for example right now, the computer that I see, that it is only > a matter of moving the attention around and picking up the signs and > particulars, not necessarily *needing* to create a recognizable whole, > but does or doesn't do so based on many other factors, the main of which > is the continually arising visible object. > How does this sound to you? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds pretty good to me. The Buddha said "I" and "myself" etc. He formed and used concepts, but he "didn't take a stand" on them. He was not taken in by the human communication-constructs we call "concepts". He merely used them. His luminous mind was not subject to the error of reification. ---------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > As I understand it, (apparently separate) conditions of all sorts > > arise and cease as aspects of a reality that we as worldlings never get > a true > picture of, because our view is distorted and darkened by the > defilements, most > particularly avijja. What constitutes our world of experience is, for > the most > part, mind-constructed. But this world of experience of ours is not the > reality. As to your phrase "the reality out there," that presupposes a > view that I > don't accept. Whatever "reality" is - and I see it as indescribable - it > is > neither "out there" nor "in here" nor anything in between. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > I understand your phenomenalist position and from one point of view, I > think it is quite valid. Especially if we refer to Buddha's advice to > Bahiya that "in the seen, there is only the seen etc." However, Bahiya > was ripe and I don't believe he would deny the existence of 'rupa out > there' if questioned about it, ie, after he reached enlightenment. > Because part of what it takes to become enlightened, is the firm > understanding of conditions and so in the case of seeing and visible > object, the two are clearly distinguishable. > But of course, in my own case, I cannot make this distinction in any way > except by 'thinking' about it. I do not even have a strong basis to make > direct inference, since I can only 'think' that there is seeing > consciousness and infer that there must be an outside object > apprehended. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know about Bahiya, or his ripeness, or what he would say under questioning, but what the Buddha had to say seems clear to me. In the seen, let there only be the seen. -------------------------------------------------- > However, since we all have to start with 'theory', I think it is quite > important to get it right. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: We start with what the Buddha taught. But very quickly, we should drop the theorizing and get on with the practice, preferably under the guidance of those further along than we - the Buddha most of all, of course, via the sutta pitaka, the least disputable record of his teaching. -------------------------------------------------- If indeed, there are objects out there, then> > we shouldn't deny it. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is, in principle, no way of knowing. What we *can* know is what directly arises within the range of discernment - sights, sounds, etc, etc., and our unfortunate reification of these, a mental enslavement activity. -------------------------------------------------- It can be expected during the day some experiences> > would give the consciousness end a greater sense of reality, at another > time, the outside objects would seem more real. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: There is no contact except with namas and rupas, and the site of that contact is not properly describable as "out there" or "in here" or "in between". All three of these are concept-only based on mental proliferation. In the seen, there is just the seen. ------------------------------------------------- Also it will be the case> > that we rely on different approaches at different times to make sense of > experience. And when it comes to reflecting on the teachings, at some > moments the rememberance about the Bahiya Sutta may be most relevant and > under such circumstance it will be a mistake to wonder about rupas out > there. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I seriously think that it is best if we minimize our theorizing, especially about what is in principle unknowable. ------------------------------------------------------ However, there will be times when for example one must> > distinguish between say the importance of a 'dog' and a 'handbag', would > you not have to consider then that one is just rupa conditioned by heat > and the other is one conditioned by citta, kamma and ahara as well? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that it is quite important to distinguish among these apparent "things", but the reality is that neither of them is rupa. Conventionally we think of them as "true existents that are material objects existing out there in the real world". That, of course, is the view of the worldling, a view which quite usefully causes my wife to go to remove money from her handbag (and me from my wallet) and not from the mouth [or elsewhere] of a dog - I guess I must have that "excrement" topic in the back of my mind! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- What> > is the status of those objects during such reflections aside from being > pannatti? > > It may be true that the practice (satipatthana) involves just this mind > and its objects, so in a way there is no place for infering either "it > is "out there" or "in here" or anything in between" as you say. But the > practice involves first "pariyatti", and the correct pariyatti does not > deny outside rupa. I think one needs to make a distinction between > pariyatti as pariyatti and the subjective experience of the advanced > panna. This latter idea may be a part of the theory, but if this implies > the rejection of other 'correct' theory, then I think one risks in the > long run, of encouraging doubt. And doubting the existence of rupa out > there as being conditioned by various factors, is in my opinion quite > unhealthy. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't really care if there is something called rupa "out there" in some "external world". What is never knowable is of no interest! What I do care about is what I actually can encounter, and the more I look, the more I see that all that is actually encountered are experiential phenomena, and these are events that are without self-existence, are coreless, tentative, fleeting, and dependent. I don't see this by theorizing, but by looking at what is actually there. As the Zen folks say: "LOOK! LOOK!" --------------------------------------------------- > Of course part of the theory is also to distinguish between 'thinking' > and direct understanding. So one does not go around trying to prove to > oneself or others, the existence of rupa outside, this would be silly. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. -------------------------------------------------- > One just knows what is being experienced right now, and here in the > experience, there is only the experience and nothing more. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly. ---------------------------------------------------- But if> > the practice is right, then this is supposed to lead one day to > understand rupa as rupa and nama as nama, both quite distinct and each > condition the other by different ways. Rupa condition nama quite > differently from nama conditioning rupa. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't frankly recall ever having confused nama with rupa. ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Does this make sense? I just had the thought that I should save this > letter and wait until morning to post it after reading through it again. > But since I can always blame any mistake in reasoning on my drowsiness > and consequent murkiness of mind, I will send this off and await your > reply. :-) > > Metta, > Sukin. > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25843 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 0:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I misunderstood what you were getting at. I thought you were looking for tranquility specifically but you are talking about kusala specifically and tranquility as one of the accompanying factors. As such, I agree, more or less, with what you wrote. One minor quibble: CMA p. 172, "The "Sammohavinodanii" states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirable and undesirable obtains by way of the average being (majjhima-sata): "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants."" L: What is distinguishable by average men sounds like a consensus opinion rather than an intrinsic value. Also it is interesting that bhikkhus aren't included as "average men". Whatever causes a super abundance of material wealth would be considered by average men to be "intrinsically desirable" so whatever causes a super abundance of material wealth must be kusala. Also, rebirth is considered to be "intrinsically desirable" by average men these days so whatever causes rebirth must be kusala. Also, the whole theory of kamma has a giant hole in the middle of it. There are lots of causes and lots of effects but no way of connecting the two. It is impossible to know what will be the effect of a specific cause or what caused a specific effect. Not even arahants can know this. So what is kusala is really unverifiable. This seems unacceptable to me. We should understand cause and effect in this life in the usual, ordinary way. Even that is pretty difficult. Larry 25844 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 0:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, Understanding compounds is easy. You put two things together and you get something else. 1 + 1 = 3, the two things plus the something else. Blue plus yellow makes green. The blue is there, the yellow is there, and also now there is green with its own specific characteristic: it makes traffic go. Larry 25845 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 1:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Howard, Rupa isn't indivisible and the experience of rupa isn't indivisible. The simplest form into which experience can be conceptully analyzed is as consciousness and an object. Consciousness and an object are two, not one. But this is just concept. An actual experience is far more complex. LOOK, LOOK. Larry ps: Nagasena misled the king. If there is no carriage, there are no parts of the carriage because all those parts have parts. Similarly, if there is no person, there are no parts of a person, no namarupa. Nagasena's analysis inevitably leads to the view that experience can be turned into nibbana by analysis [unfindable, nonarising, unconditioned]. 25846 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the four discriminations, patisambhidas Hi Nina, However you want to proceed is fine with me. Just give me a signal so I know when to post another passage. Also, I wonder if we could talk about patisambhida as something for ordinary people, not just arahants. It seems very applicable to the subjects we discuss: cause, effect, language, and expression. Larry 25847 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 1:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Sarah: "As you imply, wrong views don't arise with anger, but as soon as the anger has passed away, it can subsequently be the object of those self and other wrong views in following javanas rooted in attachment. These follow each other so quickly that it seems like the anger is *Me* as you say. If the anger is followed by javanas with wisdom, then there is no idea of *Me* at all - just conditioned mental factors. So, no *Me* except as object (concept-pannatti) of ditthi." Hi Sarah, On closer inspection, I think you are right. I thought there was something about the subjective aspect of javana, or at least akusala javana, that was inherently self assuming, but there actually has to be a self view (ditthi) either accompanying or closely following in order to experience "self", which is a view or belief. With that there is also usually conceit (pride, self contempt, or camaraderie). Anger can just be anger. Larry 25848 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 11:31am Subject: One More Time (Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation.) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/4/03 4:12:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Rupa isn't indivisible and the experience of rupa isn't indivisible. The > simplest form into which experience can be conceptully analyzed is as > consciousness and an object. Consciousness and an object are two, not > one. But this is just concept. An actual experience is far more > complex. LOOK, LOOK. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Hard to say whether it is more complex, or simpler. What you wrote here spurs me to mention something: I, in fact, think of phassa as more fundamental than nama or rupa, and more fundamental than subject or object. To me, an experience has one aspect or pole of which is the knowing, and the other of which is the known, with the two mediated by a so-called sense door. And the knowing, known, and sense-door activation, while distinguishable, are inseparable. None of them exists on its own, but only as an aspect/facet of an act of cognition (phassa). Possibly this is what you meant when you said that neither rupa nor its experience is indivisible - perhaps you meant that they are not separable and do not arise alone, in which case we are in agreement, but if not, this then puts me simultaneously at odds on this issue with both you and Abhidhamma! ;-)) ========================= With metta, Howard > > Larry > > ps: Nagasena misled the king. If there is no carriage, there are no > parts of the carriage because all those parts have parts. Similarly, if > there is no person, there are no parts of a person, no namarupa. > Nagasena's analysis inevitably leads to the view that experience can be > turned into nibbana by analysis [unfindable, nonarising, unconditioned]. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25849 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:01pm Subject: Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Hi Betty, Htoo Naing and all, Htoo Naing: Thanks for this concise summary of kamma. Now that I know a few more Pali terms, I find it a condition to want to learn more abhidhamma. Kamma is of particular interest - it can't be ignored, and so is a bit scary really. As you say, 'there are endless kamma'. I read someone on another list saying that they didn't believe in kamma. They seemed to think this would mean they were 'out of the loop' and not subject to vipaka because they didn't believe in it. That was was a worry - it's a bit like jumping from a plane without a parachute and saying you'll be O.K. because you don't believe in gravity. I think someone (the Buddha?) said something about worse consequences flowing from wrong actions done in ignorance than wrong actions deliberately done. (hope that's not incorrect attribution). Betty: Yes, it's true in the times that I can remember what I have learned about the present moment, vipaka and 'stories' that the dosa actually dissipates quickly.It's sort of disappointing in a way :-) it's hard to keep an 'internal emotional drama' going when intellectually you remember that this is just "dosa 'n dukkha" - not my dosa, my dukkha. And particularly when anicca comes to mind -'this too shall pass' - which is good, but sometimes the upsetting drama is quite satisfying in a weird way (and addictive). I can remember finding a few posts of Sarah's a condition for dosa simply because she used the phrase 'that's just the story' about what I considered was an horrendously unfair and dastardly action by someone that was likely to ruin the rest of my life ... can't acutally remember what it was now :-) The question of whether to just grin and bear it, is a little different don't you think? For instance, say one is told of what one considers to be an unfair, inescapable, exorbitant increase in charges, should one just think 'that's vipaka' and accept - or should one try through the proper channels to bring ones' concern to a number of authorities and ask for change? Or even on a personal level, if subjected to rudeness (say in a shop), should one think 'that's vipaka', practise patience, or should one make a complaint and request for more courteous service? (I'm understanding here that any action taken is not vipaka but new kamma.) I have a sinking feeling that the answer is (something like) a person will do whatever their accumulations and current conditions cause them to do, and there is no control ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 25850 From: Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:16pm Subject: Re: One More Time (Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation.) Hi Howard, You are right, we don't agree. My view is, the reason things come together and fall apart is because their components are separable, not inseparable. I don't see the intellectual attraction of a solid unity at all, and a linear pointilism just makes no sense to me as a model of experience. Plus I think you go way too far in dismissing external reality as being completely unknowable. I think you are making the path too esoteric and "modern". The way I read it, the path is largely a matter of common sense and discipline. I do agree, however, that there is a large component of convention in common sense, and, of course, nibbana is very uncommon sense. Larry 25851 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:31pm Subject: Cows, Monks, and Tigers ([dsg] Re: kamanita) Hello Mike,:-) The sense of humour sounds like an aussie (and we can blame the Poms for that) - however, the accent Mike! the accent! ... Personally, I think he was a Texan. :-) Maybe his mother was Australian? ... How would a Thai cow (gaavii) - let's include Sri Lankan cows as well - who has never seen a tiger (vyaggha), or anything carnivorous except mankind, know to charge someone dressed in orange? .... according to the Abhidhamma that is? With regard to orange coloured (piitaratta) robes ... I know the cittas pass on accumulations (sa–caya) - but over a hundred generations, the fear of the colour orange (was that a movie?) ... shouldn't the robe have black stripes? and Thai cows must create havoc in an orange orchard :-) ... And did Thailand ever have a tiger? Or Sri Lanka a lion (siiha)? Does using Pali keep this on topic? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Chris, > Pukkusati was > > killed by a cow after the Dhamma talk given by the Buddha, and was > > reborn in the Pure Abodes. I think this happened to a number of > > people in the scriptures. There certainly were some very irate cows > > about in those days ... > > Still true today--an Ozzie monk in NE Thailand (Ven. Issaro) explained to me > that it's because 'they think weah TIGAHS!!!'--which he found quite > hilarious. I was glad to have white rather than ochre robes... > > mike 25852 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mostly akusala. Dear Jonothan, Much appreciated. We forget that akusala is the norm for us in our daily life. Good reminders. Nina op 04-10-2003 11:37 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Examples of possible instances of wholesome mind-moments of one kind > or another that may arise naturally in daily life (i.e., outside the > context of any notion of 'having more kusala') could include*: > - being considerate of another's convenience (e.g. refraining from > disturbing) > - pleasantness of manner towards others (e.g. in addressing someone, > refraining from sarcasm, observing normal pleasantries and > courtesies) > - any action prompted by thoughts of concern for the other's welfare > (for example, offering helpful information or advice, offering to > assist another in doing a task) > - reflecting on general dhamma issues that come up on the list, such > as the topic we are now discussing (to mention just one) > > or, and I think this is important also, any occasion of noticing the > lack of any such qualities/states and the presence of akusala instead > (and, especially, how akusala is the norm for us in our daily life). > > For obvious reasons, the kusala that arises in our daily lives is > likely to be weak and so not readily apparent as being any different > from the general level of akusala that constitutes the major part of > our daily mental activity. But with a proper theoretical basis of > what is and what isn't kusala we have a better chance of recognising > each for what it is as and when it is present. 25853 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 11:38pm Subject: Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I think someone (the Buddha?) said > something about worse consequences flowing from wrong actions done in > ignorance than wrong actions deliberately done. (hope that's not > incorrect attribution). I think you are referring to Milinda-panha, where Nagasena used a simile of a person who unknowingly grasped a red-hot iron would be burned worse than a person who grasped knowingly. Kamma is the accumulated potential of all present and past volitions which have not yet produced their results. Modern society measures quality of actions predominantly by the impact they have on our surroundings. With kamma, we focus on the effect of actions on ourselves (agents of actions). Events do not occur accidentally or randomly, events have causes, many causes and many conditions. It would be a mistake to believe that everything that happens to us exclusively through the operation of kamma. Kamma is only one of the 24 modes of conditional relations, but it is a very important condition. The 24 modes of conditioning are: - Mind as a condition for mind (6 modes - proximity, etc.) - Mind as a condition for mind/matter (5 modes) 1. Root condition (ethics - defines what is good / bad) 2. Kamma condition a. Conascent: cetana coordinating other cetasikas b. Asynchronous (temporal gap): conditioning state is past wholesome / unwholesome volition, conditioned state is resultant cittas with their cetasikas and kamma-produced rupa (both at rebirth linking and during course of existence) 3. Vipaka condition (makes vipaka cittas / cetasikas passive, not active) 4. Jhana condition 5. Path condition - Mind as a condition for matter (1 mode - postnascence) - Matter as a condition for mind (1 mode - prenascence) - Mind/matter as a condition for mind (2 modes - object, decisive support / accumulations) - Mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter (9 modes) You will note that the 24 conditions do not include matter as a condition for matter (this would be the natural laws of physics and chemistry). This is because this type of understanding was not conducive to the holy life, nor did it lead to Nibbana. Imagine a bug living on a billiard ball. Our perspective on the movement of the billiard ball is that the ball is still until it is hit by another ball; then the ball moves until it rebounds off another ball, reflects off a bumper or slows and stops (cause and effect based on natural laws of physics). But what is the bug's perspective? The motion of his world would appear to be arbitrary and unfathomable (work of a God). The Buddha made it clear that the detailed workings of kamma was one of the four inpenetrables (drive you crazy if you try to understand): 1. Scope of power of a Buddha 2. Scope of power of a jhanic state 3. Detailed workings of kamma 4. The origin of the universe IMHO, people place far to much emphasis on the workings of kamma, "This happened to me because of my kamma...". Sure, kamma plays a role, but so do accumulations (decisive support) and other natural laws (niyama). What is important is not so much understanding the causes of what happens to us, but rather ensuring that our reaction to what happens to us is kusala. Imagine that something bad happens to you. We could think of this as a wave of negative energy hitting you. The source of the wave is irrelevant (it is in the past, it no longer exists). If you react in a negative way, you are propogating and perpetuating that wave. If you react in a negative way to multiple people, you are spreading the negative wave - you are making the world a less nice place to live in. Not reacting to the negative wave is better, reacting in a positive way (a sense of humour?) is best; reacting in a positive way initiates a positive wave. Hopefully, your positive wave will impact many, many people and make this world a better place to live. Metta, Rob M :-) 25854 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 0:34am Subject: Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Betty, Htoo Naing and all, > > Htoo Naing: Thanks for this concise summary of kamma. Now that I > know a few more Pali terms, I find it a condition to want to learn > more abhidhamma. Kamma is of particular interest - it can't be > ignored, and so is a bit scary really. As you say, 'there are > endless kamma'. I read someone on another list saying that they > didn't believe in kamma. They seemed to think this would mean they > were 'out of the loop' and not subject to vipaka because they didn't > believe in it. That was was a worry - it's a bit like jumping from a > plane without a parachute and saying you'll be O.K. because you > don't believe in gravity. ------------------------------------ Christine:I think someone (the Buddha?) said something about worse consequences flowing from wrong actions done in ignorance than wrong actions deliberately done. (hope that's not incorrect attribution). --------------------------------------- Htoo Naing : Actions are carried out in line with Kammogenic Cittas ( Kammapatha Javanacittas ). For bad actions there are three roots 1. Moha 2. Dosa 3. Lobha. These three roots in 12 Akusalacittas just represent chief Cetasika. But in all Akusalacittas, Moha or ignorance is included. There are 8 Lobha rooted Cittas or consciousness. Half is associated with wrong view ( Ditthi ). But all 8 are accompanied by ignorance. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25855 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Hi Christine (and all); Here is a summary of a book, "Curbing Anger Spreading Love" by Bhikkhu Visuddhacara which describes ways of controling anger. Mindfulness =========== Mindfulness (sati) is the first and best guard against anger and all unwholesome states of mind. When we are watching our anger, we are not paying attention to that which "caused" the anger. Mindfulness allows us to pause to make a correct response. We must have mindfulness before practicing the other suggestions. Firm resolution in maintaining calmness ======================================= If we make a consistent and purposeful effort to maintain calmness and equanimity, we are less likely to get swept away with the emotion of anger. Consider the Buddha's fine example ================================== The Buddha did not get angry when Devadatta tried to kill him or when Cinca falsely accused the Buddha of making her pregnant. Khanti (forbearance/patience) is a parami, one of the ten qualities perfected by the Buddha. The Bodhisatta Khantivadi, "Preacher of Patience", incurred the wrath of a jealous king. The king had the Bodisatta flogged then the king had the Bodhisatta's hands, feet, ears and nose cut off. The Bodhisatta endured without anger. Consider that we must all die one day ===================================== Every moment of anger is a moment of lost opportunity for skillful thoughts. Verse 6 of the Dhammapada says: The others do not know that in this world, we all must die; Those who know, have their anger calmed thereby. Consider that we are all related ================================ It is unbecoming to harbour hatred against a person who has been related to us in a previous life. The Buddha said, "Bhikkhus, it is not easy to find a being who has not formerly been your mother, your father, your brother, your sister, your son or your daughter." Consider the harmful effects of anger on oneself ================================================ By getting angry, you are like a man who wants to hit another and picks up a burning ember and thus first burns himself. In the Kodhana Sutta (AN VII.60), the Buddha says: An angry person is ugly and sleeps poorly. Gaining a profit, he turns it into a loss, having done damage with word and deed. A person overwhelmed with anger destroys his wealth. Maddened with anger, he destroys his status. Relatives, friends and colleagues avoid him. Anger brings loss. Anger inflames the mind. He doesn't realize that his danger is born from within. An angry person doesn't know his own benefit. An angry person doesn't see the Dhamma. A man conquered by anger is in a mass of darkness. He takes pleasure in bad deeds as if they were good, but later, when his anger is gone, he suffers as if burned with fire. He is spoiled, blotted out, like fire enveloped in smoke. When anger spreads, when a man becomes angry, he has no shame, no fear of evil, is not respectful in speech. For a person overcome with anger, nothing gives light. Consider that we are the owners of our deeds ============================================ The law of kamma works for us and it works for others. Others will "pay the price" for their deeds and we will "pay the price" for our anger. When a Brahman scolded the Buddha, the Buddha replied as follows: "Do you sometimes receive visits from guests or relatives?" "Yes, I do" "When they come, do you offer them food?" "Yes, I do" "And if they refuse your offer, to whom does this food belong?" "It belongs to me." "In this case, you offered me anger, but I did not accept it. It is yours." Consider their good points ========================== All people have good points. Our anger may cause us to momentarily focus on the person's bad points, but that does not change the fact that the person has many good points as well. Focusing on the person's good points as well helps us to expand our perspective Having a more balanced view calms our anger. Freeze! ======= Whenever we are angry, we should not act or say anything. For in that frame of mind, what we do or say is likely to be unskillful. We might do or say something that we regret later. Whenever anger arises, we should freeze and be like a block of wood. Only after we have quelled the anger should we say or do something. It is the nature of anger to feed upon itself. Anger is like a fire; it constantly consumes its base of support and needs new fuel to sustain itself. A frozen mind can stop the progress of anger. Why are we angry? ================= If we take a moment and consider why we are angry, we usually discover that we get angry because we have an ego, a BIG ego. Things are not the way that WE want them and so we get angry. The current situation naturally arises because of conditions but WE want it to be different. Who is angry? ============= There is no base for anger (anatta). The so-called "I" is not the same for two consecutive moments. At the moment the wrong was done there was another thought and another mass of molecules which were regarded as "I", whereas what are regarded as "I" at the present moment are a different thought and collection of molecules, though belonging to the same process. Thus some other being did wrong to someone else and another gets angry with another. Is this not a ridiculous situation? Look into a mirror ================== Anger makes a person look ugly. The heat of anger accelerates the aging process. A person who is habitually angry will be reborn ugly in their next life. Nobody is free from blame ========================= People living in glass houses should not throw stones. When we consider our own faults, it is easier to forgive others. Perhaps it is our own faults that is making others angry at us. Forgiveness =========== Forgive others and forgive ourselves. Forgiving others is a way of taking a negative energy and converting it into a positive one. There are many examples of the Buddha forgiving others who wanted to harm Him. Often it is most difficult to forgive ourselves. Not forgiving ourselves is a form of punishing ourselves. We should consider that in the Sangha, there is no punishment there is only acknowledgement, forgiveness and learning. There is no use crying over spilt milk. Review the benefits of loving kindness (Metta) ============================================== Regular metta meditation develops a positive habit in the mind. This positive habit can become an "automatic response" as situations arise and can help to prevent anger from gaining a foothold in our mind. According to the Metta Sutta (AN XI.16), one who consistently practices metta can expect the following the benefits: - One sleeps easily, wakes easily and does not have bad dreams - One is liked by humans and animals, protected by Devas - Cannot be harmed by fire, poison or weapons - The mind is easily concentrated - One's countenance is serene (bright complexion) - One is destined for a positive rebirth (dies unconfused) Give a gift =========== If a person insults or slanders us, understand that that person is consumed with anger. We should consider the current and future suffering of that person and have compassion. Responding with anger ourselves simply perpetuates the feeling of anger. Verse 5 of the Dhammapada explains that anger is never stilled by anger, only by metta is anger stilled; this is an eternal law. Giving a gift to the person who insults or slanders us can shock that person into realizing the foolishness of anger. It may also be helpful to note that "dukkha" is sometimes translated as "stress"... Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 25856 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I misunderstood what you were getting at. I thought you were > looking for > tranquility specifically but you are talking about kusala > specifically and tranquility as one of the accompanying factors. Actually, you understood correctly ;-)) I was indeed asking about kusala of samatha, but in my post I did not limit the examples to samatha specifically (my footnote to that effect somehow got left out -- see the asterisk after 'could include' in my last post). However, I think most or all of my examples would include some aspects of samatha. Metta is one aspect of samatha. It is kusala action through the mind-door (i.e., it does not require action through body or speech door). Apart from being one of the '40 subjects of focus' given in the Visuddhi-Magga as capable of supporting high levels of concentration, metta is a mental factor that can arise in any person at any time (i.e., it is not limited to someone who is consciously developing metta, or concentration based on metta or whatever). Metta is actually the mental factor of adosa (non-aversion) that accompanies each wholesome mind-moment (kusala citta) that has another person/being as its object. At that moment of wholesome consciousness the other person's wellbeing is in mind -- not necessarily consciously, but in terms of the specific mental factors arising. There is an absence of dosa (aversion) of any kind towards the person. So whenever the object of our consciousness is another person, and the consciousness is kusala, the mental factor of metta is involved. Looking at the list of situations, which I have set out again below, I think it is not difficult to see how the kusala moments of consciousness involved in the situations at (a), (b) and (c) would all include metta of one degree or another (as well as other aspects of kusala, e.g., dana and sila). Similarly, recollection of the teachings, of virtue and of generosity are aspects of samatha. They too are kusala action through the mind-door, and can arise in any person at any time, without there having to be any deliberate directing of effort or attention to their cultivation. This aspect of samatha would no doubt be involved in the situations at items (d) and (e) in the list. On this basis, are we agreed that for many (most) people there are likely to be moments of the kusala that is samatha arising from time to time in daily life, naturally and spontaneously? Jon (From my last post) Examples of possible instances of wholesome mind-moments of one kind or another that may arise naturally in daily life (i.e., outside the context of any notion of 'having more kusala') could include*: a/ being considerate of another's convenience (e.g. refraining from disturbing) b/ pleasantness of manner towards others (e.g. in addressing someone, refraining from sarcasm, observing normal pleasantries and courtesies) c/ any action prompted by thoughts of concern for the other's welfare (for example, offering helpful information or advice, offering to assist another in doing a task) d/ reflecting on general dhamma issues that come up on the list, such as the topic we are now discussing (to mention just one) e/ or, and I think this is important also, any occasion of noticing the lack of any such qualities/states and the presence of akusala instead (and, especially, how akusala is the norm for us in our daily life). PS Thanks for the correction on 'desirable' vs. 'pleasant' sense-door object. I'll write separately on the kamma thread. 25857 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO ´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! Dear Nina Nina:" How do you manage > to get at a computer? Is it allowed? I admire you that you keep up with > Dhammasangani in the midst of harsh training and the eating of mutton." --------------------------------------------------------------------- No... computers and Palm Tops aren´t allowed. Only at the weekends I manage to take a flight back to home and post to you all!!! And about clogging my stomach with mundane meat... oh well... take a look at the next chapter of my Dhamma Diary!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------- Nina:" You > do not forget paramattha dhammas, even when there is stomach trouble. > Keep courage and good cheer, > best wishes," -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Nina! I had memorized all list of Paramattha Dhammas times ago: that´s not difficult at all. The Dhammasangani´s Mattika is also very easy to handle with! I am missing all of you, noble company of Dhamma Students! Military barracks are so boring sometimes... mettaya, Ícaro > Nina. > op 27-09-2003 14:22 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > Sarah:" Logic??? No more mutton sceances??" > > > > No more clogged stomach with meat, you see... > > 25858 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] the four discriminations, patisambhidas Dear Larry, It is fine whenever you post a new passage, because I can always add: relevant passage, so that the thread is not lost. Patisambhida is not for ordinary people, it is high understanding. We can try to grasp it intellectually to some extent. Nina. op 04-10-2003 22:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > However you want to proceed is fine with me. Just give me a signal so I > know when to post another passage. > > Also, I wonder if we could talk about patisambhida as something for > ordinary people, not just arahants. It seems very applicable to the > subjects we discuss: cause, effect, language, and expression. 25859 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 8:26am Subject: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER THREE !!!! My head aches... My stomach twistes... My limbs are trembling... I am pouring off all my lunch...arghhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Oh!!! Is the Last Meal of Buddha ??? Not yet! It´s the ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER THREE: The Noble truths and a tiresome, wearisome, irksome FLOCK of somniferous boys and grrrrls!!!! let´s face it: the world hasn´t any worthy thing to cling up. After a very hard military fitness session, the dry and hellish hot weather, the ill-adjusted boots (and uniform) and a bad tempered meal, the obvious result is... an afternoon at the sick bay! While I am lying down at bed, I get some time to breathe and think about the Four Noble Truths: 1. Dukkha 2. Samudaya 3. Nirodha 4. Magga The very original standpoint of Siddartha Gautama is this four main concepts: mind tricks, intrincated reasonings and deep insights are more or less shared by all other Maharishis, Gurus and Masters of all times... but Buddha was the first Muni to accept entirely the World´s total lack of worthness. And, speaking seriously as a good master could do it, Siddartha Gautama have stated also the paramount role of mind in all philosophical doctrines and religious beliefs. How did Buddha put the questions about Mind, Dhamma and external world relationship ? Mind element: mano + mental object = Dhamma Mental factors = Cetasika Simple ! Dhamma is a set of imbricated Mind Elements and factors (Cetasika) plus the mental objects. Because of mind, matter arises. Because of matter, mind arises. Sometimes both arises simultaneously. Sometimes one arises first. After a time at the sick bay, I am on my feet again. Now our squad is practising all that so typical march exercises and military cerimonials. As a buddhistic wheel of existence, Doughboys and Grrrrrrrls are marching along up and down the Air Force Base, counting down the time for the REAL bootcamp that will begin at the future days. What about the wheel of existence ? (Yes! I have got still time to make some Niyama about these questions. I will divide the W. of E. in three sections: Past, Present and Future, ordered and numbered to make understanding more easy to readers, and since all these elements are produced by Kamma process, I will try to answer the questions about how these elements are produced on. I´ve picked up this list at a uncertain source on internet, perhaps at the Mahasi Sayadaw´s some time ago) WHEEL OF EXISTENCE !!! PAST -------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Ignorance (avijja) 2. Karma Accumulations (sankharas) (Karma Process (kamma-bhava)- 5 causes: 1,2,8,9,10) -------------------------------------------------------------------- PRESENT 3. Rebirth-Linking consciousness (viññana) 4. Corporeality-Mentality (Nama-Rupa) 5. Six Bases (Ayatana) 6. Impression (Phassa) 7. Feeling (Vedana) (Rebirth-Process(Upatti-bhava)- 5 results: 3-7) 8. Craving (Tanha) 9. Clinging (Upadana) 10. Process of Becoming (Bhava) (Kamma-Process (kamma-bhava)- 5 causes:1,2,8,9,10) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FUTURE 11. Rebirth (Jati) 12. Old Age and Death (Jara-Marana) (Rebirth Process(Upatti-bhava)- 5 results: 3-7) ------------------------------ The attentive reader will perceive that Buddha had expounded Dhamma is many ways and manners. The Buddhistic Wheel of Existence has some connections with many Hinduistic ideas about the same questions, but Siddartha Gautama was the first sage to say openly that everything on this scheme has a formal and definite cause - Kamma-bhava or Upatthi-bhava - that send all this effects to other quadrants of the Wheel. Samsara is Samsara, rolling up on and on... Will the doughboys and grrrrrrrls survive at the real boot camp ? Some days before my falling down at the sick bay many other grrrrrrls had the same fate of mine because the hot and dry wheater here... hard days are coming !!!!! O noble bunch of Dhamma followers! Don´t dare to cling up at the thought of a delicious floating over caskets of red, red wine on Lotus Ponds at the breeze of springtime, forgotting to read the next chapter of ICARO´s DHAMMA DIARY!!!! ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY, CHAPTER FOUR: "I´ve been working on the SHEEP road, working night and day..." Mettaya, Ícaro 25860 From: Larry Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 9:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I agree any kusala mental action (javana?) would have an element of tranquility in it and this action could arise "spontaneously" for anyone, depending on accumulations etc. Larry ps: I was wondering about different kinds of tranquility. Would all of the following be considered different kinds of tranquility: tranquility cetasikas, jhana cittas, path and fruition cittas, nirodha samapatti? What is the difference between nirodha samapatti and bhavanga cittas? When the bhavanga cittas are arising, is that tranquility? This goes back to my thinking that dreamless sleep is tranquility. I'm guessing that tranquility isn't just a minimum of sense door activity but rather there has to be a virtuous intention that conditions it. So if one went to sleep with a virtuous intention wouldn't that be tranquility? Or would it be more correct to say the intention has an element of tranquility but not the sleep (bhavanga)? Does tranquility have a particular quality, sort of soft and gentle (not corpse-like)? L. 25861 From: Larry Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 9:44am Subject: One More Time (Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation.) Hi Howard, I have thought some more about our conversation and I think I can see what you are getting at regarding contact (phassa) being all that is known. However, I think the (hypothetical) 5 door in-put to that point of contact is a very detailed three dimentional image for all 5 doors, depending on the acuity of sense perception. [I think I would divide the body door into internal and external.] It seems like these 5-door processes are constantly building an evolving image of "reality" somewhere in the mind. I agree all this raw data is interpreted, usually very shallowly. But from childhood on we are constantly experimenting with our "world". These experiments alter our interpretations. We learn, and to a surprising extent we get most of it right, practically speaking. Although there can be some spectacular mistakes. So I guess my ontology and epistomology are pragmatic: when results follow according to intentions, we have understood reality correctly. A three dimentional visual image arises; another three dimentional image moves through it. Yes! It is a door. Larry 25862 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 11:48am Subject: FW: [dsg] ICARO ´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! memorizing texts. Dear friends I am sure Icaro does not mind me forwarding this letter, you will appreciate to hear from him. Icaro wrote:< I had memorized all list of Paramattha Dhammas times ago>. Hear we see the benefit also of memorizing. Some people may think, just memorizing, well, that is not all. But, in stressful times, in times of trouble, it helps. These times are sure to come. I remember a text one of the Pali teachers gave me and which he recites everyday; Beantwoord: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Datum: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:18:32 -0000 Aan: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Onderwerp: Re: [dsg] ICARO ´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! Nina:" How do you manage > to get at a computer? Is it allowed? I admire you that you keep up with > Dhammasangani in the midst of harsh training and the eating of mutton." --------------------------------------------------------------------- No... computers and Palm Tops aren´t allowed. Only at the weekends I manage to take a flight back to home and post to you all!!! And about clogging my stomach with mundane meat... oh well... take a look at the next chapter of my Dhamma Diary!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------- Nina:" You > do not forget paramattha dhammas, even when there is stomach trouble. > Keep courage and good cheer, > best wishes," -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Nina! I had memorized all list of Paramattha Dhammas times ago: that´s not difficult at all. The Dhammasangani´s Mattika is also very easy to handle with! I am missing all of you, noble company of Dhamma Students! Military barracks are so boring sometimes... mettaya, Ícaro 25863 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER THREE !!!! Dear Icaro, I appreciate the truth this diary contains and the very lively style. Thank you. But it is not yet the real bootcamp? It will be worse, illfitting boots, disagreeable food, bad climate, etc. Let me think of something to cheer you up. Metta is the feet of the world, without metta how could we live? We have to help each other. You wrote about the wheel of samsara. We are all in the same boat. You and your colleagues have to depend on one another especially when conditions get worse. So, this situation has something positive also: it makes you realize the benefit of metta. Nina. op 05-10-2003 17:26 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > My head aches... > My stomach twistes... > > > WHEEL OF EXISTENCE !!! > > PAST > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > 1. Ignorance (avijja) > 2. Karma Accumulations (sankharas) > (Karma Process (kamma-bhava)- 5 causes: 1,2,8,9,10) > > 25864 From: Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 10:44am Subject: Re: One More Time (Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation.) Hi, Larry - I'm glad you've given a bit more thought to this. The matter really isn't as simple as either of us thinks, but to me, the act of cognition (phassa), encompassing both knowing and known as aspects, is primary. I think I follow you when you write " the .. 5 door in-put to that point of contact is a very detailed three dimensional image for all 5 doors, depending on the acuity of sense perception. [I think I would divide the body door into internal and external.] It seems like these 5-door processes are constantly building an evolving image of "reality" somewhere in the mind." I agree that there is a kind of cumulative processing that builds the picture of "our world". As to the "somewhere in the mind" this occurs, I believe that this is a sankharic processing producing a multilayered structure of mental constructs formed on the basis of working over the results of repeated acts of sa~n~na. The details of the "detailed three diminsional image" you refer to are carved out by mental processing after the initial contact occurs, with that contact followed by multiple additional contacts on increasingly "sa~n~nified" and "sankharized" versions of the initial data. This is the conceptual picture I have of what goes on. But it is just theoretical guesswork. There really isn't much point in going beyond what we directly get to know. What we can get to know, depending on how refined, attentive, concentrative, and microscopic our discernment becomes, is only what we can directly observe, and, of this, what is most important, I think, is that we increasingly come to see the fleetingness of it all, the impersonality and insubstantiality of it all, and the unworthiness, uselessness, and even sorrowfulness of grasping at it. What we really need to do is to learn to *let go*. This includes letting go of pet theories, and just coming to see how the Buddha's handful of leaves is really enough. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/5/03 12:45:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I have thought some more about our conversation and I think I can see > what you are getting at regarding contact (phassa) being all that is > known. However, I think the (hypothetical) 5 door in-put to that > point of contact is a very detailed three dimentional image for all 5 > doors, depending on the acuity of sense perception. [I think I would > divide the body door into internal and external.] It seems like these > 5-door processes are constantly building an evolving image > of "reality" somewhere in the mind. I agree all this raw data is > interpreted, usually very shallowly. But from childhood on we are > constantly experimenting with our "world". These experiments alter > our interpretations. We learn, and to a surprising extent we get most > of it right, practically speaking. Although there can be some > spectacular mistakes. So I guess my ontology and epistomology are > pragmatic: when results follow according to intentions, we have > understood reality correctly. A three dimentional visual image > arises; another three dimentional image moves through it. Yes! It is > a door. > > Larry > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25865 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 3:06pm Subject: Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Hi Christine, Your question and the subsequent discussion reminded me of this poem: For each ecstatic instant We must an anguish pay In keen and quivering ratio To the ecstasy. For each beloved hour Sharp pittances of years - Bitter contested farthings - And Coffers heaped with Tears! -Emily Dickinson Metta, James 25866 From: Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:23pm Subject: Re: One More Time (Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation.) Howard: "There really isn't much point in going beyond what we directly get to know. What we can get to know, depending on how refined, attentive, concentrative, and microscopic our discernment becomes, is only what we can directly observe, and, of this, what is most important, I think, is that we increasingly come to see the fleetingness of it all, the impersonality and insubstantiality of it all, and the unworthiness, uselessness, and even sorrowfulness of grasping at it. What we really need to do is to learn to *let go*. This includes letting go of pet theories, and just coming to see how the Buddha's handful of leaves is really enough." Hi Howard, I agree *but* [I'm afraid there will always be a "but"] one has inclinations. I've been reading "Recognizing Reality" by Dreyfus, which is an analysis of Dharmakirti's thought, and it has animated my mental factors. Also it is interesting to look at these five doors and try to figure out what is going on. I think having two eyes and two ears accounts for a certain amount of three dimentionality. Plus just moving the head from side to side enriches the picture immeasurably. I'm sure someone with a good nose or tongue can pick up quite a bit of detail. And the body sense, internal and external, accounts a lot for our sense of being a solid on-going concern with a definite location in space. I wonder if there are mental factors that inhibit the optimal functioning of the five doors. I know concentration plays a role in focusing attention within a field. Maybe tranquility helps in opening-up a field. Larry 25867 From: Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 20 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there] 20. 11. As regards the tetrads, in the first tetrad, knowledge that occurs contingent upon the truth of suffering is "knowledge of suffering"; knowledge that occurs contingent upon the origin of suffering is "knowledge of the origin of suffering"; knowledge that occurs contingent upon the cessation of suffering is "knowledge of the cessation of suffering"; and knowledge that occurs contingent upon the way leading to the cessation of suffering is "knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering". So it is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths. 25868 From: Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 3:24pm Subject: Re: One More Time (Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation.) Hi, Larry - I find myself often and sorely tempted to read the *Madhyamika and Yogacara theoretical writings, preserved mainly by the Tibetan traditions, and to delve deeply into the details there, but I do try to resist that temptation. I think it's far better to keep it simple as far as the intellect is concerned - the temptation is great but the payoff small. With metta (pure and simple! ;-), Howard * Fortunately, I don't have as much trouble resisting the "lure" of Abhidhamma! ;-) In a message dated 10/5/03 8:24:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I agree *but* [I'm afraid there will always be a "but"] one has > inclinations. I've been reading "Recognizing Reality" by Dreyfus, which > is an analysis of Dharmakirti's thought, and it has animated my mental > factors. Also it is interesting to look at these five doors and try to > figure out what is going on. I think having two eyes and two ears > accounts for a certain amount of three dimentionality. Plus just moving > the head from side to side enriches the picture immeasurably. I'm sure > someone with a good nose or tongue can pick up quite a bit of detail. > And the body sense, internal and external, accounts a lot for our sense > of being a solid on-going concern with a definite location in space. I > wonder if there are mental factors that inhibit the optimal functioning > of the five doors. I know concentration plays a role in focusing > attention within a field. Maybe tranquility helps in opening-up a field. > > Larry > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25869 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 7:27pm Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] ICARO ´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! memorizing texts. --- Dear Nina, Congratulations to Lodewijk on his birthday! Did you see my post?: On the question of whether each javana moment is kamma here is an interesting piece: "It is stated in the Kathavatthupakarana-atthakatha that there is a relationship between citta and kamma. If mind be distracted, no kamma can be performed. Yada cittam bhajjamanam hoti tada kammaam bhajjamanam hotiti attho." P147 The life and work of Buddhaghosa by B.C Law In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > kamma. > This is a good day to recollect because Lodewijk just turned 78 today. ---- with respect robert 25870 From: m. nease Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 8:17pm Subject: Distraction Hi Robert, Nina and Lodewijk, Robert, I did see this earlier. How do you reckon citta can be distracted--that is, given the duration of a cittakha.na, how can a distraction occur? Can 'cittam' be used in a more conventional sense here? Not having any luck with 'bhajjamanam'. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 7:27 PM Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] ICARO ´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! memorizing texts. > --- Dear Nina, > Congratulations to Lodewijk on his birthday! > Did you see my post?: > On the question of whether each javana moment is kamma here is an > interesting piece: > "It is stated in the Kathavatthupakarana-atthakatha that there is a > relationship between citta and kamma. If mind be distracted, no kamma > can be performed. Yada cittam bhajjamanam hoti tada kammaam > bhajjamanam hotiti attho." > P147 The life and work of Buddhaghosa by B.C Law > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > kamma. > > This is a good day to recollect because Lodewijk just turned 78 > today. > ---- > with respect > robert 25871 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 10:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, :-)) This time it is not only a good reminder, but also a good 'lesson' for me, re. the "Sammaditthi Sutta". Thanks man!! When I stated, "That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas and rupa. Aside from this, nothing does, all being concept only!", though I was aware of not including Nibbana because I wanted to mention only the 'contitioned realities' which I thought was more immediately relevant, I should not have associated it with "Right View". Right View *includes* the knowledge of Nibbana! And this is not all, the limitation of my assertion is not just with regard to this. Dependent Origination and the Four Noble Truths must always be kept in mind also. Besides when I do state firmly about something being Right or Wrong View, do I even keep in mind the difference between Kusala and Akusala in terms of their relevance to the development of wisdom? Rarely. Hopefully I will be more careful from now. But I do suffer from the same 'dhammazheimer' disease as Christine does. :-/ I have always felt uneasy when I read about Dependent origination, and I usually avoid it. But now I won't and will be happy with whatever little I gain from reading about it. The Sammaditthi Sutta will be read over and over again, and I believe that full understanding of it will never come to me ever. However, at this point it has also shown me the importance of studying Abhidhamma. Victor, since I get the impression that you believe in viewing experiences from the standpoint of 'things' and 'beings', I would like to express the following observations. When I read about 'beings' as in human, animals, devas and brahmas, I understand them to be manifestations of different conditions. A couple of months ago, there were conditions to reflect briefly on Kaamavaccara bhumi the one we are in. I reflected on the fact that all the time it is just one sense door or the other that aramana is being apprehended. And all the while there are sounds, sights, smells, tangible object and tastes almost as if, waiting to be experienced. And then there are concepts which are objects of the mind door, and which is no other than memories and expectations of these very experiences through the five doorways. I then compared this to the rupavaccara and the arupavaccara and concluded that, 'those' bhumis are totally different. The conditions being so. Even when it is both kaamavaccara, the difference as in Deva and human is quite vast. For example the devas can perceive fine matter through all the senses that we can't, and the fine food for us will be very gross for them. And now we can bring this kind of understanding to our own experience and the difference not only between ours and other's experiences, but also different experiences at different times. What is there but a complexity of conditions?!! So when you say for example, such things as it is "up to *us*, that this or that will be", I think it better to say that "it is up to conditions"! The idea that *we* do things is an obstacle to understanding the reality of that which *is*. Same applies to viewing conventional birth, old age and death. When I read about these, they remind me of conditions. And these conditions can be understood only when considering this momentary experience, not as *I* experiencing, but as impersonal dhammas performing their own functions. There cannot be insight of the Buddhadhamma kind when the object is a conventional reality. This will happen only if the conventional reality conditions mindfulness of the presently arising dhamma. Does this make any sense? Once again I thank you Victor for the Sammaditthi Sutta. I really am grateful. Best wishes, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Sukin, > > I am saying the view "That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas > and rupa. Aside from this, nothing does, all being concept only!" is > your view, not the right view as the Buddha taught. > > What is right view? > > > "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge > with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to > the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of > practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right > view." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html > > Please also refer to > Majjhima Nikaya 9 > Sammaditthi Sutta > The Discourse on Right View > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html > regarding right view. > > Peace, > Victor > 25872 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 0:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, > Understanding compounds is easy. You put two things together and you get > something else. 1 + 1 = 3, the two things plus the something else. Blue > plus yellow makes green. The blue is there, the yellow is there, and > also now there is green with its own specific characteristic: it makes > traffic go. But how is this when it applies to khandhas? Sukin. 25873 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Howard, I'll go only to some parts of your posts. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > We start with what the Buddha taught. But very quickly, we should drop > the theorizing and get on with the practice, preferably under the guidance of > those further along than we - the Buddha most of all, of course, via the > sutta pitaka, the least disputable record of his teaching. > -------------------------------------------------- I know that you know that we see this quite differently, and I don't expect to budge you and inch to my direction. But allow me to express myself anyway. ;-) Obviously you agree that all dhammas are anatta, and so there is no one to "drop the theorizing and get on with the practice". However what I think you may not appreciate as I do, is that pariyatti is very much *part* of the practice. Theorizing and analysis or even papanaca are conditioned too. And though they may not be useful especially when compared to the moment of satipatthana, no amount of wishing them away will do the work. Even when we say that direct 'experience' is more important that 'theory', if indeed the experience does not take place, it simply means that 'conditions are not ripe yet'! And very likely one of the conditions that which need more nurture, is more pariyatti and reflection. It is not so much the question of prematurity, that we are careful not to attempt applying our 'knowledge' of the Tipitaka to practical matters. But rather, *understanding* that sati and panna are conditioned realities, and amongst other things, that they are different from 'lobha', the desire to catch realities and 'ignorance'. That pariyatti and only this, which can condition patipatti, and not desire. And how and when this happens, it is all up to conditions. This leads me to be wary of personal experience, unless it confirms with the intellectual understanding of the theory. I also keep in mind the the word Sekha as applied to the Ariyans below the arahatta. Only they can be said truly to be "learning from experience". The rest of us, without referring to the Buddha's teachings, are groping in the dark and only making wild guesses. And being who we are today, with so much ignorance and wanting, I think we will end up interpreting even the Buddha's teachings in a way best suited to us. So not only is the correct and most authoritative teachings should be relied upon, but also the 'wise friend' who will be able to correct our misinterpretation. Some find the commentaries as contaminating of the original purity of the Teachings if not out right distortion. However, I have found through constant reference made here and elsewhere, that they have helped in increasing my appreciation of the Buddha's direct words to a very large extent. > If indeed, there are objects out there, then> > > we shouldn't deny it. > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is, in principle, no way of knowing. What we *can* know is what > directly arises within the range of discernment - sights, sounds, etc, etc., > and our unfortunate reification of these, a mental enslavement activity. > -------------------------------------------------- But the Buddha did teach about Rupa and about them arising and falling due to conditions of the sort different from nama, and who knows how and when this knowledge will condition insight in the future?! Also as I mentioned above, I am cautious about subjective experience. Being generally 'ignorant' or at least having a large latent tendency of it, I would be careful to base my knowledge of the Truth on them. But yes, in theory, all that can be known is what is experienced through the doorways. And if indeed there is no insight into reality, then one should not insist on theoretical knowledge as*proof* of the situation, beyond the fact that the Buddha said so. However, if one knows theory as just that, then it should be fine. To reject it on the other hand, would be a bigger blunder, I think. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't really care if there is something called rupa "out there" in > some "external world". What is never knowable is of no interest! What I do care > about is what I actually can encounter, and the more I look, the more I see > that all that is actually encountered are experiential phenomena, and these are > events that are without self-existence, are coreless, tentative, fleeting, > and dependent. I don't see this by theorizing, but by looking at what is > actually there. As the Zen folks say: "LOOK! LOOK!" > --------------------------------------------------- Are you sure that all this is direct experience, are you sure it is not just `thinking'? Will end it here. Metta, Sukin. 25874 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Thanks for this gift James - I like it very much. It seems life is like that, the happiness outweighed by the sorrow. metta, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Your question and the subsequent discussion reminded me of this poem: > > For each ecstatic instant > We must an anguish pay > In keen and quivering ratio > To the ecstasy. > > For each beloved hour > Sharp pittances of years - > Bitter contested farthings - > And Coffers heaped with Tears! > > -Emily Dickinson > > Metta, James 25875 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Hello RobM, Thanks for your last couple of posts. I've printed them off and have them in my work diary to read again when I get a few spare moments. Only four days until I go on Leave, and so much to do. I had hoped to reply, but may not get a chance for a while. Please know that I enjoy your posts tremendously and learn a lot from them. Thanks for the summary of the 'Curbing Anger, Spreading love' book. Much appreciated. metta and peace, Christine ---The Trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine (and all); > > Here is a summary of a book, "Curbing Anger Spreading Love" by > Bhikkhu Visuddhacara which describes ways of controling anger. > > Mindfulness > =========== > Mindfulness (sati) is the first and best guard against anger and all > unwholesome states of mind. When we are watching our anger, we are > not paying attention to that which "caused" the anger. Mindfulness > allows us to pause to make a correct response. We must have > mindfulness before practicing the other suggestions. > > Firm resolution in maintaining calmness > ======================================= > If we make a consistent and purposeful effort to maintain calmness > and equanimity, we are less likely to get swept away with the > emotion of anger. > > Consider the Buddha's fine example > ================================== > The Buddha did not get angry when Devadatta tried to kill him or > when Cinca falsely accused the Buddha of making her pregnant. Khanti > (forbearance/patience) is a parami, one of the ten qualities > perfected by the Buddha. The Bodhisatta Khantivadi, "Preacher of > Patience", incurred the wrath of a jealous king. The king had the > Bodisatta flogged then the king had the Bodhisatta's hands, feet, > ears and nose cut off. The Bodhisatta endured without anger. > > Consider that we must all die one day > ===================================== > Every moment of anger is a moment of lost opportunity for skillful > thoughts. Verse 6 of the Dhammapada says: > The others do not know that in this world, we all must die; > Those who know, have their anger calmed thereby. > > Consider that we are all related > ================================ > It is unbecoming to harbour hatred against a person who has been > related to us in a previous life. The Buddha said, "Bhikkhus, it is > not easy to find a being who has not formerly been your mother, your > father, your brother, your sister, your son or your daughter." > > Consider the harmful effects of anger on oneself > ================================================ > By getting angry, you are like a man who wants to hit another and > picks up a burning ember and thus first burns himself. > > In the Kodhana Sutta (AN VII.60), the Buddha says: > An angry person is ugly and sleeps poorly. Gaining a profit, he > turns it into a loss, having done damage with word and deed. A > person overwhelmed with anger destroys his wealth. Maddened with > anger, he destroys his status. Relatives, friends and colleagues > avoid him. Anger brings loss. Anger inflames the mind. He doesn't > realize that his danger is born from within. An angry person doesn't > know his own benefit. An angry person doesn't see the Dhamma. A man > conquered by anger is in a mass of darkness. He takes pleasure in > bad deeds as if they were good, but later, when his anger is gone, > he suffers as if burned with fire. He is spoiled, blotted out, like > fire enveloped in smoke. When anger spreads, when a man becomes > angry, he has no shame, no fear of evil, is not respectful in > speech. For a person overcome with anger, nothing gives light. > > Consider that we are the owners of our deeds > ============================================ > The law of kamma works for us and it works for others. Others > will "pay the price" for their deeds and we will "pay the price" for > our anger. When a Brahman scolded the Buddha, the Buddha replied as > follows: "Do you sometimes receive visits from guests or > relatives?" "Yes, I do" "When they come, do you offer them > food?" "Yes, I do" "And if they refuse your offer, to whom does this > food belong?" "It belongs to me." "In this case, you offered me > anger, but I did not accept it. It is yours." > > Consider their good points > ========================== > All people have good points. Our anger may cause us to momentarily > focus on the person's bad points, but that does not change the fact > that the person has many good points as well. Focusing on the > person's good points as well helps us to expand our perspective > Having a more balanced view calms our anger. > > Freeze! > ======= > Whenever we are angry, we should not act or say anything. For in > that frame of mind, what we do or say is likely to be unskillful. We > might do or say something that we regret later. Whenever anger > arises, we should freeze and be like a block of wood. Only after we > have quelled the anger should we say or do something. It is the > nature of anger to feed upon itself. Anger is like a fire; it > constantly consumes its base of support and needs new fuel to > sustain itself. A frozen mind can stop the progress of anger. > > Why are we angry? > ================= > If we take a moment and consider why we are angry, we usually > discover that we get angry because we have an ego, a BIG ego. Things > are not the way that WE want them and so we get angry. The current > situation naturally arises because of conditions but WE want it to > be different. > > Who is angry? > ============= > There is no base for anger (anatta). The so-called "I" is not the > same for two consecutive moments. At the moment the wrong was done > there was another thought and another mass of molecules which were > regarded as "I", whereas what are regarded as "I" at the present > moment are a different thought and collection of molecules, though > belonging to the same process. Thus some other being did wrong to > someone else and another gets angry with another. Is this not a > ridiculous situation? > > Look into a mirror > ================== > Anger makes a person look ugly. The heat of anger accelerates the > aging process. A person who is habitually angry will be reborn ugly > in their next life. > > Nobody is free from blame > ========================= > People living in glass houses should not throw stones. When we > consider our own faults, it is easier to forgive others. Perhaps it > is our own faults that is making others angry at us. > > Forgiveness > =========== > Forgive others and forgive ourselves. Forgiving others is a way of > taking a negative energy and converting it into a positive one. > There are many examples of the Buddha forgiving others who wanted to > harm Him. Often it is most difficult to forgive ourselves. Not > forgiving ourselves is a form of punishing ourselves. We should > consider that in the Sangha, there is no punishment there is only > acknowledgement, forgiveness and learning. There is no use crying > over spilt milk. > > Review the benefits of loving kindness (Metta) > ============================================== > Regular metta meditation develops a positive habit in the mind. This > positive habit can become an "automatic response" as situations > arise and can help to prevent anger from gaining a foothold in our > mind. > > According to the Metta Sutta (AN XI.16), one who consistently > practices metta can expect the following the benefits: > - One sleeps easily, wakes easily and does not have bad dreams > - One is liked by humans and animals, protected by Devas > - Cannot be harmed by fire, poison or weapons > - The mind is easily concentrated > - One's countenance is serene (bright complexion) > - One is destined for a positive rebirth (dies unconfused) > > Give a gift > =========== > If a person insults or slanders us, understand that that person is > consumed with anger. We should consider the current and future > suffering of that person and have compassion. Responding with anger > ourselves simply perpetuates the feeling of anger. Verse 5 of the > Dhammapada explains that anger is never stilled by anger, only by > metta is anger stilled; this is an eternal law. Giving a gift to the > person who insults or slanders us can shock that person into > realizing the foolishness of anger. > > It may also be helpful to note that "dukkha" is sometimes translated > as "stress"... > > Hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25876 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 5:47am Subject: Re: Distraction : To Mike and Robert K Dear Mike, Robert K, Nina, and all How are you? While we are waiting for Robert's reply, I would like to say something about distraction. Yes, it seems that a mental moment being to short may not have the time to be distracted. But, the mind being distracted merely means the mind accompanied with distraction, namely one of the unhealthy minds (akusalacittaani), - in particular the moha-rooted mind with distraction as the dominant cetasika. Therefore, when a distracted mind vanishes, both the mind and distraction also vanish together in same mental moment. By the way, Robert, could you please check the spelling "bhajjamanam" or the page number in the Kathaavatthu A.t.thakathaa. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: Hi Robert, Nina and Lodewijk, Robert, I did see this earlier. How do you reckon citta can be distracted--that is, given the duration of a cittakha.na, how can a distraction occur? Can 'cittam' be used in a more conventional sense here? Not having any luck with 'bhajjamanam'. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 7:27 PM Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] ICARO ´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! memorizing texts. 25877 From: Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 10/6/03 3:30:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I'll go only to some parts of your posts. > > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > We start with what the Buddha taught. But very quickly, we > should drop > >the theorizing and get on with the practice, preferably under the > guidance of > >those further along than we - the Buddha most of all, of course, via > the > >sutta pitaka, the least disputable record of his teaching. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > I know that you know that we see this quite differently, and I don't > expect to budge you and inch to my direction. But allow me to express > myself anyway. ;-) > > Obviously you agree that all dhammas are anatta, and so there is no > one to "drop the theorizing and get on with the practice". However what > I think you may not appreciate as I do, is that pariyatti is very much > *part* of the practice. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, a part. The Buddha was fairly clear in the suttas as to what the practice is. He did not continually say read and read, and think and think. He said to guard the senses, to restrain the senses, to be mindful (and to be mindful, and to be mindful!), to cultivate the jhanas, and, most specifically, paraphrasing, to avoid evil, to do good, and to purify the mind. And the Buddha also taught that these things *can* be done, and that he would not tell us to do them if they could not be done. He did *not* preach a gospel of no-control. ------------------------------------------------------ Theorizing and analysis or even papanaca are > > conditioned too. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: So what? This is not news. What is your conclusion, that there is nothing to be done? That there is no option to follow the Buddha's instructions, because the die is cast, conditions are in place, and what will happen will happen? Buddhism is called the "middle path" and the "path of purification", but not the "impossible path" or the "path of hopelessness"! ---------------------------------------------------- And though they may not be useful especially when > > compared to the moment of satipatthana, no amount of wishing them > away will do the work. Even when we say that direct 'experience' is > more important that 'theory', if indeed the experience does not take > place, it simply means that 'conditions are not ripe yet'! And very likely > one of the conditions that which need more nurture, is more pariyatti > and reflection. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I honestly think it is nonsense to say that (especially excessive/compulsive) theorizing and analyzing are inevitable. The notion of "no control" is way overblown, way exaggerated, by several folks here. Many things cannot be directly controlled (i.e., influenced), but those things can be *indirectly* controlled. Whatever arises arises due to conditions. While we often have no direct control over a phenomenon, we can indirectly control it by influencing some of the conditions for it. A mundane, conventional example: Sure, wishing for a cup of coffee won't give us a "java jolt"! ;-) But brewing some coffee, and pouring some into a cup, and putting our hand on the handle, and bring the cup to our lips, and taking a sip, and swallowing it *will*! In order not to get involved in a convoluted, speculative line of thought about something we don't and can't have verification of, we can, for example, first of all, by means of a developed habit of keen mindfulness and guarding the senses, particularly guarding the mind door, turn the mind to something else, or engage in a physical activity that requires our full attention. Can we avoid anger? Yes, at least much of the time, if we can calm the mind, and yes, if we don't persist with a line of thought that leads to anger. Can we control what we see when we open our eyes? Well, that depends on whether we've left the light on or not, and on whether we've stayed in our room or gone outside, etc, etc. If we are unmindful most of the time, we have little control over anything. But if we pursue a cultivation of calm, concentration, and, above all, mindfulness, then the more successful we are in this, the greater is the control. Yes, there is no "I" to exercise control! I'm no disputing that. There is no agent to do anything, including reading and studying and thinking and concocting, but there *is* the doing of these things, and there can also be the diminishing of these things! ----------------------------------------------------- > It is not so much the question of prematurity, that we are careful not to > attempt applying our 'knowledge' of the Tipitaka to practical matters. But > rather, *understanding* that sati and panna are conditioned > realities, and amongst other things, that they are different from 'lobha', > the desire to catch realities and 'ignorance'. That pariyatti and only this, > > which can condition patipatti, and not desire. And how and when this > happens, it is all up to conditions. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This notion that pariyatti *is* the practice is peculiar to the followers of Khun Sujin, it seems to me. This is *not* what the Buddha taught during his 45 years. The statement that it is "pariyatti and only this, which can condition patipatti, and not desire. And how and when this happens, it is all up to conditions" is a perfect blueprint for hopelessness and despair. Moreover, it is *not* what the Buddha taught. He did not teach that study *is* the practice. Oh, and BTW, while wishing won't make it so, were there not the desire to gain freedom, a desire growing out of the recognition of the imperfection of our current state of dukkha, if there were no quest, there would be no finding! I am very grateful that the desire for peace and freedom is there in me, and is strong, because one who doesn't even desire to leave his prison, or who does desire it, but believes there is nothing s/he can do about it, is truly consigned to imprisonment. --------------------------------------------------------- > This leads me to be wary of personal experience, unless it confirms > with the intellectual understanding of the theory. I also keep in mind the > the word Sekha as applied to the Ariyans below the arahatta. Only they > can be said truly to be "learning from experience". The rest of us, > without referring to the Buddha's teachings, are groping in the dark and > only making wild guesses. > And being who we are today, with so much ignorance and wanting, I > think we will end up interpreting even the Buddha's teachings in a way > best suited to us. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And I think that interpreting the Dhamma as a teaching of utter lack of control is a way least suited to us, a way suited only to continued imprisonment. -------------------------------------------------------- So not only is the correct and most authoritative > > teachings should be relied upon, but also the 'wise friend' who will be > able to correct our misinterpretation. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The least disputable teachings are to be found in the sutta pitaka. And, BTW, how do you choose who is the "wise friend"? Don't you have to do that yourself? Is it simply conditioned? Well, of course it is. But does that mean it is random? That there is no choice to be made? ----------------------------------------------------- > Some find the commentaries as contaminating of the original purity of > the Teachings if not out right distortion. However, I have found through > constant reference made here and elsewhere, that they have helped in > increasing my appreciation of the Buddha's direct words to a very large > extent. > > > If indeed, there are objects out there, then> > >>we shouldn't deny it. > >> > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > There is, in principle, no way of knowing. What we *can* know > is what > >directly arises within the range of discernment - sights, sounds, etc, > etc., > >and our unfortunate reification of these, a mental enslavement activity. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > But the Buddha did teach about Rupa and about them arising and falling > due to conditions of the sort different from nama, and who knows how > and when this knowledge will condition insight in the future?! > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, you propose reading (especially Abhidhamma) and then just waiting, because "WHO KNOWS [emphasis mine] how and when this knowledge will condition insight in the future?! " Frankly, I don't even understand why you bother recommending reading. After all, we have no control over that, right? Either we will or we won't, subject to conditions! ----------------------------------------------------------- > Also as I mentioned above, I am cautious about subjective experience. > Being generally 'ignorant' or at least having a large latent tendency of it, > > I would be careful to base my knowledge of the Truth on them. > > But yes, in theory, all that can be known is what is experienced through > the doorways. And if indeed there is no insight into reality, then one > should not insist on theoretical knowledge as*proof* of the situation, > beyond the fact that the Buddha said so. However, if one knows theory > as just that, then it should be fine. To reject it on the other hand, would > be a bigger blunder, I think. > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't really care if there is something called rupa "out there" in > >some "external world". What is never knowable is of no interest! > What I do care > >about is what I actually can encounter, and the more I look, the more > I see > >that all that is actually encountered are experiential phenomena, and > these are > >events that are without self-existence, are coreless, tentative, > fleeting, > >and dependent. I don't see this by theorizing, but by looking at what is > >actually there. As the Zen folks say: "LOOK! LOOK!" > >--------------------------------------------------- > > Are you sure that all this is direct experience, are you sure it is not > just `thinking'? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sure of very little. But I have "seen" a bit, and that has caused me to gain trust in what the Buddha is reported in the suttas to have taught. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Will end it here. > > Metta, > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25878 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Distraction : To Mike and Robert K Hi Suan, Thanks, this does make sense--does this mean that kamma cannot occur ("be performed") with mohamuulacitta? How does this mohamuulacitta differ from the moha arising with all akusalacittani? Does this refer only to pa.tisandhicitta, or...? Still interested in the paali for 'distraction' if anyone knows. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: abhidhammika To: Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 5:47 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Distraction : To Mike and Robert K Dear Mike, Robert K, Nina, and all How are you? While we are waiting for Robert's reply, I would like to say something about distraction. Yes, it seems that a mental moment being to short may not have the time to be distracted. But, the mind being distracted merely means the mind accompanied with distraction, namely one of the unhealthy minds (akusalacittaani), - in particular the moha-rooted mind with distraction as the dominant cetasika. Therefore, when a distracted mind vanishes, both the mind and distraction also vanish together in same mental moment. By the way, Robert, could you please check the spelling "bhajjamanam" or the page number in the Kathaavatthu A.t.thakathaa. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: Hi Robert, Nina and Lodewijk, Robert, I did see this earlier. How do you reckon citta can be distracted--that is, given the duration of a cittakha.na, how can a distraction occur? Can 'cittam' be used in a more conventional sense here? Not having any luck with 'bhajjamanam'. mike 25879 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Sukin, This is excellent--thanks! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:32 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. > Hi Victor, > > :-)) > This time it is not only a good reminder, but also a good 'lesson' for me, > re. the "Sammaditthi Sutta". Thanks man!! > > When I stated, > "That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas and rupa. Aside from this, > nothing does, all being concept only!", > > though I was aware of not including Nibbana because I wanted to > mention only the 'contitioned realities' which I thought was more > immediately relevant, I should not have associated it with "Right View". > > Right View *includes* the knowledge of Nibbana! > And this is not all, the limitation of my assertion is not just with regard > to this. Dependent Origination and the Four Noble Truths must always > be kept in mind also. Besides when I do state firmly about something > being Right or Wrong View, do I even keep in mind the difference > between Kusala and Akusala in terms of their relevance to the > development of wisdom? Rarely. Hopefully I will be more careful from > now. But I do suffer from the same 'dhammazheimer' disease as > Christine does. :-/ > > I have always felt uneasy when I read about Dependent origination, and > I usually avoid it. But now I won't and will be happy with whatever little I > gain from reading about it. The Sammaditthi Sutta will be read over and > over again, and I believe that full understanding of it will never come to > me ever. However, at this point it has also shown me the importance of > studying Abhidhamma. > > Victor, since I get the impression that you believe in viewing > experiences from the standpoint of 'things' and 'beings', I would like to > express the following observations. > > When I read about 'beings' as in human, animals, devas and brahmas, I > understand them to be manifestations of different conditions. A couple > of months ago, there were conditions to reflect briefly on Kaamavaccara > bhumi the one we are in. I reflected on the fact that all the time it is just > one sense door or the other that aramana is being apprehended. And > all the while there are sounds, sights, smells, tangible object and tastes > almost as if, waiting to be experienced. And then there are concepts > which are objects of the mind door, and which is no other than > memories and expectations of these very experiences through the five > doorways. > I then compared this to the rupavaccara and the arupavaccara and > concluded that, 'those' bhumis are totally different. The conditions being > so. Even when it is both kaamavaccara, the difference as in Deva and > human is quite vast. For example the devas can perceive fine matter > through all the senses that we can't, and the fine food for us will be > very gross for them. > > And now we can bring this kind of understanding to our own experience > and the difference not only between ours and other's experiences, but > also different experiences at different times. What is there but a > complexity of conditions?!! So when you say for example, such things as > it is "up to *us*, that this or that will be", I think it better to say that "it > is up to conditions"! > The idea that *we* do things is an obstacle to understanding the reality > of that which *is*. > Same applies to viewing conventional birth, old age and death. When I > read about these, they remind me of conditions. And these conditions > can be understood only when considering this momentary experience, > not as *I* experiencing, but as impersonal dhammas performing their > own functions. There cannot be insight of the Buddhadhamma kind > when the object is a conventional reality. This will happen only if the > conventional reality conditions mindfulness of the presently arising > dhamma. > > Does this make any sense? > > Once again I thank you Victor for the Sammaditthi Sutta. I really am > grateful. > > Best wishes, > Sukin. 25880 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma with distracted mind Dear Robert, Lodewijk thanks you for the good wishes. op 06-10-2003 04:27 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Congratulations to Lodewijk on his birthday! > "It is stated in the Kathavatthupakarana-atthakatha that there is a > relationship between citta and kamma. If mind be distracted, no kamma > can be performed. Yada cittam bhajjamanam hoti tada kammaam > bhajjamanam hotiti attho." > P147 The life and work of Buddhaghosa by B.C Law N: Like Mike, I also stumbled on bhajjamanam, must be a misprint. But this must be the meaning: the type of moha-muulacitta that is accompanied by uddhacca cannot produce as result rebirth, but it can produce result in the course of life. We discussed this in K.K. The reason is that when lobha-muulacitta motivates kamma, there are many moha-muulacittas accompanied by uddhacca in between, and these can also produce result. This is for Mike: when there is a moment with uddhacca, reslessness or distraction, there is not one moment but seven, and in following processes again and again. Nina. 25881 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] stories, stories. Dear Christine, this was answered already. Remember the Perfections? It was under Patience (Ch 7) with a lot of commentary about Pukkusati and the potter's workshop. I love that story, one of my favorites. You said that when involved in difficult situations you cannot swallow the saying: just stories. I discussed this with Lodewijk, and he has the same feelings. We know it is true, but we are not always ready for it, do not want to hear it. But it helps to know that even when involved in stories this is conditioned. We should not try not to be involved in it, or force ourselves in any way. It is all natural. Nina. op 03-10-2003 22:24 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Could anyone refresh my memory as to the name (and sutta ref) of the > person who spent the night in a potters' (?) shed with the Buddha > unaware of his true identity until after receiving a Dhamma talk? 25882 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 10:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, No problem, and you are welcome. Even if you stated "That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas, rupa, and Nibbana. Aside from this, nothing does, all being concept only!", that view is still not the right view as the Buddha taught. Why not? If you compare the view above with what the Buddha taught right view is and what Sariputta explained in Sammaditthi Sutta, you would see that right view is not a view on what exists and what does not exist, what are real, what are not real. In addition, the Buddha's teaching is not about what a being is or what a thing is. Inquiry and assertion along the line of what exists, and what does not exist, what are real, what are not real, what a being is, or what a thing is belong to the domain of metaphysics. It is good to know that you will read Sammaditthi Sutta over and over again. I would not assume that you will never understand it. Regarding your observations, I would say that: Try to first understand what the Buddha's teaching is about. Then try to examine your observations and see if they in accord and/or relevant to the Buddha's teaching. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > :-)) 25883 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 0:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Distraction : To Mike and Robert K Hi Mike, According to Buddhadatta: distracted (adj.) asamaahita; a––avihita. distraction (m.) sambhama; vikkhepa. (f.) anava.t.thiti. distractive (adj.) cittakobhaka; vikkhipaka. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > > Still interested in the paali for 'distraction' if anyone knows. > > mike 25884 From: Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 4:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, I wrote: "Understanding compounds is easy. You put two things together and you get something else. 1 + 1 = 3, the two things plus the something else. Blue plus yellow makes green. The blue is there, the yellow is there, and also now there is green with its own specific characteristic: it makes traffic go." Sukin: "But how is this when it applies to khandhas?" Larry: Put 5 khandhas together and you get a person. Five people together is a committee. Five committees is a government. All these are real by the definition of distinctly arising (sabhava), correct? Larry 25885 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma with distracted mind --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Robert, > Lodewijk thanks you for the good wishes. > op 06-10-2003 04:27 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > > > Congratulations to Lodewijk on his birthday! > > > "It is stated in the Kathavatthupakarana-atthakatha that there is a > > relationship between citta and kamma. If mind be distracted, no kamma > > can be performed. Yada cittam bhajjamanam hoti tada kammaam > > bhajjamanam hotiti attho." > > P147 The life and work of Buddhaghosa by B.C Law > N: Like Mike, I also stumbled on bhajjamanam, must be a misprint. Dear Nina, Mike and Suan, The quote says If mind be distracted, no kamma can be performed. Yada cittam blajjamanam hoti tada kammaam bhajjamanam hotiti attho." I changed the first blajjamanam to bhajjamanam to match the second one assuming the first had a spelling mistake The third a has a line over it and the final m a dot. robertk 25886 From: Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 8:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 20 "So it is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths." Hi all, Here are a few lines from the "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm sacca-ñána: 'knowledge of the truth' (s. prec.), may be of 2 kinds: (1) knowledge consisting in understanding (anubodha-ñána) and (2) knowledge consisting in penetration (pativedha-ñána), i.e. realization. Cf. pariyatti. "Amongst these, (1) 'knowledge consisting in understanding' is mundane (lokiya, q.v.), and its arising with regard to the extinction of suffering, and to the path, is due to hearsay etc. (therefore not due to one's realization of the supermundane path; s. ariya-puggala) (2) 'Knowledge consisting in penetration', however, is supermundane (lokuttara), with the extinction of suffering (= nibbána) as object, it penetrates with its functions the 4 truths (in one and the same moment), as it is said (S. LVI, 30): whosoever, o monks, understands suffering, he also understands the origin of suffering, the extinction of suffering, and the path leading to the extinction of suffering' " (Vis.M. XVI, 84). See visuddhi (end of article). "Of the mundane kinds of knowledge, however, the knowledge of suffering by which (various) prejudices are overcome, dispels the personality-belief (sakkáya-dilthi, s. ditthi). The knowledge of the origin of suffering dispels the annihilation-view (uccheda-ditthi, s. ditthi); the knowledge of extinction of suffering, the eternity-view (sassata-ditthi, s. ditthi); the knowledge of the path, the view of inefficacy of action (akiriya-ditthi, s. ditthi)" (Vis.M. XVI, 85). Ditthi (snipped): Eternity-belief (sassata-ditthi) is the belief in the existence of a persisting ego-entity, soul or personality, existing independently of those physical and mental processes that constitute life and continuing even after death. Annihilation-belief (uccheda-ditthi), on the other hand, is the belief in the existence of an ego-entity or personality as being more or less identical with those physical and mental processes, and which therefore, at the dissolution at death, will come to be annihilated. - For the 20 kinds of personality-belief, see sakkáya-ditthi. Now, the Buddha neither teaches a personality which will continue after death, nor does he teach a personality which will be annihilated at death, but he shows us that 'personality', 'ego', 'individual', 'man', etc., are nothing but mere conventional designations (vohára-vacana) and that in the ultimate sense (s. paramattha-sacca) there is only this self-consuming process of physical and mental phenomena which continually arise and again disappear immediately. - For further details, s. anattá, khandha, paticcasamuppáda. Larry: Apparently mundane knowledge that desire causes suffering dispels the belief in a self that dies, and mundane knowledge of nibbana dispels belief in an eternal soul. I'm guessing this means: 1. Seeing the continuity of desire and suffering we can see the continuity of the khandhas (the objects of desire). Further, "self" could not be an object of desire because desire implies not having and if there were a self there could be no not having of it. 2. The correct conceptual understanding of nibbana is that nibbana is a mere cessation. How do you see it? Larry 25887 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? htootintnaing wrote: . There are endless Kamma. But at a time one Kamma dominates. As soon as Arahats' Cuticitta ( the last Citta in Samsara )arises all Kamma die out without any residual Kamma. Those non-arising Kamma become Ahosi Kamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing Dear Htoo Naing your message dated 4.10.2003 refers.(reply to Christine) Sorry to intercept the tread this way as I have problem to trim the long passages. With regard to you last paragraph, is it correct to say that when an arahant's cuticitta arises, his passed unmanifested kamma (e.g. says killing human being a few lives earlier ) will die out without any residue and become ahosi kamma ? I hope you can help to clear my doubt.Alternatively, can a serious kamma remains unmanifested until the last moment of parinibbana, in case of an arahant? Thanks, with metta, P C Yap 25888 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma with distracted mind Dear RobertK, Nina , Mike, Suan, Chris & All, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear Nina, Mike and Suan, > The quote says If mind be distracted, no kamma > can be performed. Yada cittam blajjamanam hoti tada kammaam > bhajjamanam hotiti attho." > I changed the first blajjamanam to bhajjamanam to match the second > one assuming the first had a spelling mistake > The third a has a line over it and the final m a dot. ..... I think in the context which BC Law quotes, it might be referring to the correlation between kamma (i.e. cetana) and citta. If there is no citta, there is no kamma. So I take ‘distracted’ not to be referring to uddhacca (restlessness) but perhaps to ‘doesn’t arise’. If anyone can give an exact reference for the Pali it would help, but I think the passage may refer to ‘On Action and Accumulation’, Kathaavatthuppakarana-A.t.thakathaa, ch XV, X1. This is on the controverted point that “kamma is one thing, its accumulation is another”. The Andhakas and Sammitiyas declared that the accumulating of kamma ‘goes on automatically, independently of moral action, of mental action.’ [Mike, lots of good stuff on accumulations in this chapter. From the Kathaavathu: ***** Theravaadin: Are you then prepared to admit that each mental phase - mental reaction, feeling, perception, volition........also the ten corruptions (kilesas) - is a different thing from its accumulation? Of course not. Then neither can you affirm your proposition. Again, do you imply that karmic accumulation is coexistent with karma? You deny? But think! You assent. Then [a fortiori] meritorious (or good) karma is coexistent with good karmic accumulation? No? Nay, you must admit it is. then [it follows that] karma, [being inseperably] conjoined with feeling, is both coexistent with its accumulation, and also inseperably conjoined with corresponding feeling. Similarly for demeritorious (or bad) karma. Again, you admit of course that karma is coexistent with consciousness and has a mental object, but you do not admit as much of its accumulation. *That is to say, you agree that karma, being coexistent with consciousness is broken off [as mental process] when consciousness is broken off*. But by your view of the different nature of karmic accumulation, you hold that when consciousness stops, karmic accumulation does not [necessarily] stop. So that we may get a cessation of karma as conscious process and a continuation of karmic accumulation as product!” *I think Rob’s quote may refer to the line about ‘broken off’ here, (on the other-hand, without the exact reference I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely!!). The commentary to this line says [i.e possibly the phrase Law refers to??}: “ “When consciousness is broken off” means that, when consciousness is broken off, karma is broken off. Or, it is an accusative case in the locative sense. It means consciousness being broken off. This is the reading.....” In the main discussion, the Theravadin continues to show the illogical nature of the controverted point. I hope someone can track the Pali and confirm whether this is the correct passage. Interesting reading, nonetheless! Metta, Sarah ====== 25889 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi Derek, Nina & James, I think Derek's comments are probably spot on here - esp. the part about the 'ambiguity in the original language': --- Derek Cameron wrote: > As you say, the instrumental is not as strong as the ablative in > implying causation. > > So, it could be either a coincidental accompaniment (the Buddha got > ill and coincidentally just happened to have eaten suukaramaddava) or > causation (the Buddha got ill by the eating of the suukaramaddava). > > My belief that there is ambiguity in the original language is > strengthened by the fact that both the commentator and the author of > the Milindapañha feel the need to clarify this point. > > What's also interesting is that the Milindapañha devotes a whole > story to the issue, as though it were quite controversial, and > important (in the author's mind) for the listener to believe that the > Buddha did not die *because* of the suukaramaddava. ..... I also thought Nina's explanation of the possible instrumental use was very good. To give a simple English example, we might say something like: *Having arrived at the party, (by way of) a taxi, he fell ill.* In other words, the taxi describes the arrival rather than the cause of falling ill. As noted, in the prose section before the verse in the sutta, it just something like 'having eaten the meal, he became very sick'. In the verse, we are reminded of what the meal was. James, I know this isn't satisfactory to you and probably sounds like another brain-washed explanation, but I think we just have to accept that the wording may be ambiguous and select what interpretation we wish (or until the Dhamma Congress reports back with more info;-)). I'm also reminded of some old English riddles I used to hear as a child, which also depend on the punctuation. Here's one: charles 1 walked and talked half an hour after his head was chopped off How?* Metta, Sarah ... .... ... .... *Charles 1 walked and talked. Half an hour after, his head was chopped off ================================= 25890 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mantras --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > > KKT: I'm intrigued by this phrase > > << Without understanding rupas, I doubt > it's possible to really understand namas >> > > Could you elaborate, Sarah? ..... Very good and difficult question. Let’s take seeing consciousness and its accompanying mental factors. These are namas which experience a rupa, visible object. If there is an idea that ‘seeing’ sees computers and people or anything other than visible objects, then I doubt that it’s possible to understand the characteristic of ‘seeing’. The first stage of insight is clearly understanding the characteristics and distinction between namas AND rupas. It is only by understanding these different dhammas that the characteristic of anatta OF these same dhammas, leading to detachment from them, can be known at any level. I think you agreed that *ANATTA* lies at the heart of the Buddha’s teachings. In other words, if it seems that namas can and should be known, but rupas are unnecessary, it indicates (to me) a *selection* with possibly an idea of self or lack of real understanding of dhammas. ... > But don't hurry up, take your time. ..... I took you at your word;-) I’ll be glad to hear your further comments, KKT. Metta, Sarah ====== 25891 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Howard, I will be commenting after every few sentence, please do not see this as being critical, but rather because I think that one misunderstanding leads to another, and that we should make things as clear as possible. > > Obviously you agree that all dhammas are anatta, and so there is no > > one to "drop the theorizing and get on with the practice". However what > > I think you may not appreciate as I do, is that pariyatti is very much > > *part* of the practice. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, a part. The Buddha was fairly clear in the suttas as to what the > practice is. He did not continually say read and read, and think and think. --------------------------------------------------------------- I wouldn't recommend this either! Reading is *not* the point at all, but understanding the `meaning' of the words. And this is not dependent on *more* words as such, but the panna, ability to extract meaning from the words. And though this may lead to seeking more `words', it is the `understanding' that is the object. So I wouldn't advice anyone to read, nor to think (since thinking may also only be repetition of words and not accompany any understanding). When a person sees any value in reading, listening or discussing, as a way to develop pariyatti, his object is *understanding* and not the words. However he does know that without the `word' there cannot be any understanding of the kind which then conditions patipatti. Besides, I cannot even make myself understand anything, so how can I expect another to come to any understanding simply by asking him to read? I don't want to be doing the same mistake as the meditation teachers of today do, when they say such things as, " Just Sit!" and/or "Do this, do that." as though the activity matters more than the understanding of this very moment. But yes, if indeed someone sees the value of listening, ie. in relation to understanding, then more listening will be better chance of giving rise to this understanding. And I say this as a way of describing conditions and not a recommendation for a practice. Also if you would consider, the Buddhist path is about the development of "understanding". And how is this understanding developed if not starting from the intellectual level. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > He said to guard the senses, to restrain the senses, to be mindful (and to be > mindful, and to be mindful!), to cultivate the jhanas, and, most specifically, > paraphrasing, to avoid evil, to do good, and to purify the mind. And the Buddha > also taught that these things *can* be done, and that he would not tell us to > do them if they could not be done. > ------------------------------------------------------ Of course he said these things and of course they can be done. But by whom? By Self? Isn't it all a matter of right conditions coming together and dhammas performing their functions? And one of the conditions is the understanding the listener has when he hears those words? Could a staunch Christian or Moslem come to see any sense in those words the same way as you? Would it produce the same result? Isn't there a danger of `wrong practice' if understood wrongly and which leads to a stronger sakayaditthi instead of a higher appreciation of anatta? -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > He did *not* preach a gospel of no-control. ----------------------------------------------- Nor did he teach about control. There was no question about control or no control, only the understanding that *all dhammas are conditioned*, and there is no self standing apart anywhere to dictate the flow, not in the past, not in the future, and certainly not now in the present. I think you understand this, what I think you believe in, is that certain activities such as, guarding the senses and formal sitting, is part of the "present" conditions crucial to development. And I don't deny present conditions, just that I don't see those as being contained in `conventional' activities such as meditation or even the `willful' guarding of the senses. And this does not mean a helpless reliance on pre-determined conditions, but just being aware of what really *are* the conditions at this moment and not being fooled by the conventional activity. And this itself is a present condition by various ways. However it falls away immediately, and if indeed it is accompanied by pleasant feelings or some minor insight, there is no need to wonder about it, less to believe that one can reproduce a similar state of mind. There is never a "need" to do anything, not even to understand. This need conditions wrong practice imho. The only positive condition which ensures the further development of understanding is sati and panna. And panna is accompanied by detachment, not wanting more. ------------------------------------------------------- > Theorizing and analysis or even papanaca are > > > conditioned too. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > So what? This is not news. What is your conclusion, that there is > nothing to be done? That there is no option to follow the Buddha's instructions, > because the die is cast, conditions are in place, and what will happen will > happen? Buddhism is called the "middle path" and the "path of purification", but > not the "impossible path" or the "path of hopelessness"! Indeed, what will happen will happen? The problem is that we do not appreciate this deep enough. On the one hand there are those who believe in the importance of `self' taking charge of the situation and so they resist the idea of no control. They end up getting into all sorts of frustrating situations, because indeed it is *not up to them*! On the other hand, some think it is *all* pre-determined and do not take into account present conditions. So they leave it all to destiny. But they too end up troubled, precisely because they are not aware of their present akusala reactions and realize that this too is a condition. Both do not know about causes and conditions, and aware or not, both are motivated by results. One driven towards it, the other with hope, awaits it. But the wise man concentrates on the cause, and knowing the present moment, he is not driven to `create' conditions, nor does he have time to wonder about result in light of the ever rising and falling away of conditions. The Middle Way is when there is mindfulness of a reality arising at the moment, and not thinking about past or future. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I honestly think it is nonsense to say that (especially > excessive/compulsive) theorizing and analyzing are inevitable. -------------------------------------- I didn't mean to imply inevitability nor necessity just that if it does it is because of conditions. And that seeing the undesirability of it does not mean that one can control it. But I do think, that reflection and contemplation of what has been heard indeed helps. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The notion of "no control" is > way overblown, way exaggerated, by several folks here. Many things cannot be > directly controlled (i.e., influenced), but those things can be *indirectly* > controlled. Whatever arises arises due to conditions. While we often have no > direct control over a phenomenon, we can indirectly control it by influencing > some of the conditions for it. A mundane, conventional example: Sure, wishing > for a cup of coffee won't give us a "java jolt"! ;-) But brewing some coffee, > and pouring some into a cup, and putting our hand on the handle, and bring the > cup to our lips, and taking a sip, and swallowing it *will*! ------------------------------------- This may only be an example you make and you don't take seriously the comparison. But if you do, ie. you apply the line of reasoning to your understanding of dhamma, here are some thoughts of mine. Conventional realities give an impression of continuity; this is why we can always come `back' to them with little or no chance of being proven wrong. The way we manipulate reality (material) is like a 3 year old child being given a paper and pencil and taught to draw. She does not need to know what it is called, but can be trained in no time to draw a perfect circle. A mathematician ;-), on the other hand also draws a circle, however his understanding of "circles" is entirely different from that of the 3 year old. Yet they can both with equal efficiency, draw perfect circles. In the same way, the scientist manipulates matter to create and invent things. He does not have to know `hardness' as an element to create a `lens'. And he does not have to understand `thinking' to be able to manipulate the idea of lens in his mind and come up with the invention of `microscope'. This is the way all things were invented, including the computers we are both using, nothing mysterious and fascinating. But the whole world thinks otherwise and is impressed. Likewise, in our day to day life, we do not `know' what is going on, yet we end up functioning quite well. However if this seeming sense of control is taken to apply also to `ultimate realities', then I think it is a dangerous idea. Even if you think that it is only indirectly. Because ultimate realities arise from no where and go no where after they fall, and before we know it, billions of such dhammas have come and gone. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: > In order not to get involved in a convoluted, speculative line of > thought about something we don't and can't have verification of, we can, for > example, first of all, by means of a developed habit of keen mindfulness and > guarding the senses, particularly guarding the mind door, turn the mind to something > else, or engage in a physical activity that requires our full attention. Can > we avoid anger? Yes, at least much of the time, if we can calm the mind, and > yes, if we don't persist with a line of thought that leads to anger. Can we > control what we see when we open our eyes? Well, that depends on whether we've > left the light on or not, and on whether we've stayed in our room or gone > outside, etc, etc. If we are unmindful most of the time, we have little control over > anything. But if we pursue a cultivation of calm, concentration, and, above > all, mindfulness, then the more successful we are in this, the greater is the > control. Yes, there is no "I" to exercise control! I'm no disputing that. There > is no agent to do anything, including reading and studying and thinking and > concocting, but there *is* the doing of these things, and there can also be the > diminishing of these things! > ----------------------------------------------------- I hadn't read this part when I started to compose my reply. But I think what I have written so far applies to this part also. Only add this, what is `cultivation of calm', `concentration' and `mindfulness'? Are you referring to activities of body or of mind? If of mind, are you talking about specific cetasikas or something else? > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This notion that pariyatti *is* the practice is peculiar to the > followers of Khun Sujin, it seems to me. This is *not* what the Buddha taught during > his 45 years. The statement that it is "pariyatti and only this, which can > condition patipatti, and not desire. And how and when this happens, it is all up > to conditions" is a perfect blueprint for hopelessness and despair. ---------------------------------------------------------- A few weeks ago when Robert K. was here, at one point he expressed his calm acceptance of the fact that it will take innumerable lives to reach the goal. At that time, though I could imagine what the basis of this attitude was, I myself did not feel so good about feeling so lost. However, just yesterday, I came upon what I think was a similar feeling. There was calm acceptance without a need to justify and explain as I often otherwise did. And I remembered Robert, and thought that this must have been what he felt. But even before this, I never felt hopeless nor despair. It is what the outsider would feel, I think especially those who are attached to results. ---------------------------------- Howard: > Moreover, it is *not* what the Buddha taught. He did not teach that study *is* the > practice. Oh, and BTW, while wishing won't make it so, were there not the desire > to gain freedom, a desire growing out of the recognition of the imperfection of > our current state of dukkha, if there were no quest, there would be no > finding! I am very grateful that the desire for peace and freedom is there in me, > and is strong, because one who doesn't even desire to leave his prison, or who > does desire it, but believes there is nothing s/he can do about it, is truly > consigned to imprisonment. > --------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but any development, any subsequent understanding depend on altogether different conditions. From a certain perspective, as of late, I have come to feel that progress along the path is in direct proportion to the variety of situations in which sati and panna can be conditioned to arise. Decisive Support-condition? I think that the more a person's kusala and akusala can be condition for sati to arise at any time, this I think is a sign of going the right direction and truly understanding the practice. So if on the other hand, if a person finds that certain situations are more conducive than others, then I feel inclined to conclude that something is wrong. With respect to this, it seems therefore, that it is not `intention' which determines, but the developed `habit' of being aware without choosing time and place. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The least disputable teachings are to be found in the sutta pitaka. > And, BTW, how do you choose who is the "wise friend"? Don't you have to do that > yourself? Is it simply conditioned? Well, of course it is. But does that mean > it is random? That there is no choice to be made? > ----------------------------------------------------- Someone once remarked about how one determines `who' is a wise friend. I said that there is no way of knowing, that like `birds of a feather flock together', we will just come upon the `wise' friend most suitable to us. K. Sujin on the other hand once commented that instead of seeking a `wise friend' out there, why don't we think about being one ourselves? And I think this is the best advice regarding this issue. ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again, you propose reading (especially Abhidhamma) and then just > waiting, because "WHO KNOWS [emphasis mine] how and when this knowledge will > condition insight in the future?! " Frankly, I don't even understand why you bother > recommending reading. After all, we have no control over that, right? Either > we will or we won't, subject to conditions! > ----------------------------------------------------------- Yes, no control over that. Either we will or won't, subject to conditions. And whether there will subsequently be any understanding, even this is subject to conditions. This post is very long, after this however; I hope I can at least avoid repeating the same old points which have not got either of us anywhere closer to the other's position. :-( Best, Sukin. 25892 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG, I’ve taken my time on quite a few responses - apologies. --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > TG: On this very critical and subtle point, you have either misquoted > Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, or you have a different version than I have. > In my > version, Nyanatiloka translates sakkaya-ditthi as "Personality-belief." > He proceeds > to explain that this "belief" comes about by associating 'the 5 > aggregates as > 'self' in one of the 4 ways... .... OK, I was going by memory when I mentioned ‘personality-view’, as I would have considered ‘personality view’ or ‘self-view’ as synonyms for ‘personality-belief’. [....] > This clearly represents (to me) the gross 'belief-in-self' and not the > more > subtle 'self-views' or 'sense-of-self' that arises as part of the normal > > perceptual processes. ..... I agree with you that (asmi) maana (conceit or what you refer to as ‘sense-of-self’ I think) is not the same as sakkaya-ditthi (personality-belief) or any kind of wrong view. I’m not sure I would categorise all sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthi as ‘gross’ however. I am quite sure that at the higher stages of insight any lingering sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthi are extremely subtle. Even now, amongst grosser forms, I am sure there are many subtle variants that we have little idea about. Quite possibly, too, that many so called conceits (or ‘sense-of-self’ cittas), may with more wisdom turn out to be one form of ditthi or other. They follow each other so very closely, I find. Anyway, I agree with your point. Only sati and panna will know precisely what the reality is, I think. (I think there may have been some confusion because by ‘self-view’ you are referring to mana and I’m referring to sakkaya-ditthi. Let me know if this isn’t right). .... >The above 20 types of "personality-belief" would > be those > found in people grasping after 'theories of self' such as most other > religions > and philosophies do. The reason that I (and presumably you) are not > streamwinners is because we are still 'subject to those beliefs.' We > have not 100% > eradicated the possibility that they can arise in the future. .... I wrote a post to Victor not so long ago which quoted suttas to show that all wrong views are rooted in sakkaya-ditthi in some form. Recently RobK and others were discussing silabbata-paramasa and how quickly it can slip in even when we’re following a supposedly wholesome course of action. This can be whilst ‘undertaking’ precepts, donating blood (RobM & Ken H - sorry, but so many different cittas involved in any act of dana), or even reading Dhamma! I think the same applies for other ditthi including sakkaya-ditthi, even when it’s not possible to exactly pin-point or pigeon-hole the offender. I appreciate your posts and challenging comments, TG. Look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ====== 25893 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Howard, I thought you made some very good points in our discussion and hope you find a slight bowing in your direction in my comments too;-): --- upasaka@a... wrote: > A brief comment, bowing ever so slightly in your direction. I > still > maintain that concepts are simply ideas, and ideas are mind-door > objects, and > are namas. ..... We all agree that ideas/concepts are mind-door objects. Are you quite sure that in other posts you haven’t explained to others that concepts are not namas???;-) .... [...] Ideas and concepts are quite complex, > difficult to > grasp, multi-formed, multi-layered, and elusive (and illusive!) - but > they > *are* mind-door objects. .... Yes. However complex, they are by definition merely conceptualisations. The aim of the teachings is not to understand the multi-layered concepts, papanca, stories, imaginations and so on, but to directly know namas and rupas, namas as being defined as consisting of cittas and cetasikas (and nibbana) only. By directly knowing these ‘truths’, we begin to see the futility of that insight can ever arise merely from ‘working out’ the concepts or ideas;-) .... > I find unacceptable the notion that penetration with wisdom of > any > mind-door object is impossible. .... Me too;-) Namas and rupas can be known with penetrative wisdom as mind-door objects. Indeed, namas can only be known as mind-door objects as they never arise as sense-door objects. Concepts can be the object of panna (wisdom), for example in the development of samatha or of jhanas. But, only namas and rupas can be the object of vipassana panna. Hope this clarifies. It’s the same in the suttas as I read them. .... An arahant, or certainly a Buddha, would > have the > wisdom to understand fully all the nuances and aspects of every arising > concept he encounters. Even we poor worldings can grasp many of the > multi-layered > aspects of our concepts, observing how, for example, "the" tree concept > is > built of other concepts such as bark, roots, branches (and branching), > leaves, > etc, and associated notions of birds setting on branches, of bird nests > etc, and > a further grasping of how, for example, the bark-concept is built of > concepts > such as dark color, rough texture, and hardness, etc, etc. .... We ‘poor worldlings’ understand these concepts, but by thinking wisely about them. In other words, as conventional truths (sammuti sacca). It’s hard for me to imagine that an arahant would think about ‘bark-concept’, but certainly there is still thinking about concepts, for example when Sariputta swept the temple or checked the water urn was full. In the case of arahants, no ignorance or unwholesome cittas and full comprehension of the truths, but still penetrative insight has to be of namas and rupas. When it comes to the patisambhidas (discriminations), the Buddha’s knowledge, such as of past and future lives, it’s very, very difficult to comprehend. In the Vism it talks about the impossibility of understanding the Buddha’s knowledge. When I ask these qus I usually forget the answers because it’s so much beyond my comprehension even intellectually. .... >All this even > *we* > can see, from our very limited and circumscribed perspectives. When we > look > and apparently "see" a tree, a concept of tree is arising (or several > such arise > in a sequence) at the mind-door; it arises (or they arise) as mental > reification growing out of a mental proliferation upon sa~n~nic > recognitions, > recognitions which already sum up a variety of visual clues, and make > "matchings" via > memory. What is going on is mental function, the creation of mental > constructs, and these are knowable by wisdom as to their precise nature, > and in full > detail, though not to us at our stage with our current limitations .... When you say ‘What is going on is mental function, the creation of mental constructs’, I would agree if you are referring to cittas accompanied by sanna, vitakka, phassa and so on. The tree, the bird on the tree, the pretty leaves, the bark and so on are the ‘stories’ (tell me if it’s on your list too;-)). No one ever became enlightened by understanding the stories, in spite of what scientists, philosophers or other religions might say. Hence the Buddha’s teachings which show that only namas and rupas arise and fall away - no things, no people, no concepts in truth. Metta, Sarah p.s Have you had a chance to visit the monastery we discussed? ====== 25894 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > On closer inspection, I think you are right. .... That could be a first from you, Larry;-) .... >I thought there was > something about the subjective aspect of javana, or at least akusala > javana, that was inherently self assuming, but there actually has to be > a self view (ditthi) either accompanying or closely following in order > to experience "self", which is a view or belief. With that there is also > usually conceit (pride, self contempt, or camaraderie). .... Yes, as I said to TG, I think self view can slip in very easily.... Just one point, I think the conceits (and your other interesting definitions of the 3 kinds), arise at different moments to self and other wrong views. They have different objects, but are all unwholesome and often follow each other closely as you suggest. .... >Anger can just > be anger. ..... ;-( Unfortunately.... Metta, Sarah ===== 25895 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 3:04am Subject: Re: Cows, Monks, and Tigers ([dsg] Re: kamanita) Hi Christine (& Mike), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Mike,:-) > > The sense of humour sounds like an aussie (and we can blame the Poms > for that) - however, the accent Mike! the accent! ... Personally, I > think he was a Texan. :-) Maybe his mother was Australian? ... [...] > Does using Pali keep this on > topic? .... A classic, Chris. I've been waiting for Mike's response;-) I note it's taken you little time to become the group's Pali expert on animals.....we all know now where to come for answers to knotty questions concerning animal issues in the texts;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25896 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah and all, Sarah, what teaching are you talking about?? I would be interested to see some references regarding the teachings. Peace, Victor > The aim of the teachings is not to understand the multi-layered concepts, > papanca, stories, imaginations and so on, but to directly know namas and > rupas, namas as being defined as consisting of cittas and cetasikas (and > nibbana) only. By directly knowing these `truths', we begin to see the > futility of that insight can ever arise merely from `working out' the > concepts or ideas;-) 25897 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How does one handle stressful results of kamma? Hi Betty (& Christine), I thought you gave some really good points and reminders. It’s always great when you butt in (not that this was any kind of ‘butting in’). .... Betty: >May I butt in and add a bit? Yes, it usually appears that a lot of akusala vipaka happens at one time, but that is all just thinking and "stories", as Ivan (here in Bkk) likes to call them, the stories that the mind "interprets" in a mind-door process. Basically, akusala and kusala vipaka come through the 6 doorways in the form of rupa aramana through the 5 sense doors, and dhamma aramana (excuse spelling) through the mind door.< .... Yes, my first response was to wonder if we could refer to ‘stressful results of kamma’ at all. I’ve known for sometime that ‘stories’ are on C’s ‘pet-peeves’ list, but you and Ivan weren’t to know;-) Like both of you, I find that clinging to ‘proliferations’, especially the ‘my akusala vipaka’ one comes very easily;-( I think Chris made a great point when she said that even when it’s an ‘upsetting drama’ it is ‘quite satisfying in a weird way (and addictive)’. Isn’t it true, that in ignorance we cling to all these dramas (OK, good new word, Chris;-)) such as the ‘horrendously unfair and dastardly action by someone that was likely to ruin the rest of my life’ that is soon forgotten when the next drama materialises;-) I reflected on all this when I sprained my knee a couple of days ago, just as my arm has almost recovered;-(. For a couple of days I was unable to sit at the computer and here I am now in an awkward position with one leg propped up against the door as I write. When I go out, I hobble around on a stick, desperately hoping that I have a quick recovery before our trip next week and just occasionally reflectig that there’s really very little obvious akusala vipaka that I’m aware of. I have very little pain now, as long as I’m careful, a great excuse to drop all yoga, tai chi and any exertions or chores I don’t feel like doing. Wherever I go, I’m having doors opened for me and smiles and metta even from strangers. Really, the only problems are the ‘poor me’ dramas and clinging to the ‘drama’ of the ‘way of life I was enjoying last week’. As Nina, said, even these kinds of thinking are conditioned. Whatever is experienced and whatever the reactions, there really is no other ‘solution’ than the developing of satipatthana to know the present realities. As Chris said: “I have a sinking feeling that the answer is (something like) a person will do whatever their accumulations and current conditions cause them to do, and there is no control ...” It should be with joy and lightness of heart that one reflects like this;-) Instead of being like a prison, I think it is like the escape from prison to give up the idea of self and control. Betty, I’ll just repeat your other sincere, honest and wise comments (imho of course;-)) at the end (partly because I notice your post didn’t come to my in box so others may have missed it too). Hope to hear more of them (& Ivan too) and look forward to seeing you both very, very soon (hopefully without my stick!). Metta, Sarah ===== Betty: >While this is known to me at the pariyatti level, it is only when satipatthana arises that a fuller understanding of vipaka can arise, likewise increasing the understanding that those aramanas are not self. But until that understanding arises, I am like you: I get frustrated with akusala vipaka and ask the same question: do I just grin and bear it? This is still sakkaya ditthi (self view) because it still is, "my akusala vipaka." But, if after dosa arises over akusala vipaka, a moment of contemplation then arises that reminds "me" of the pariyatti learning, then the dosa just dissapates. This is gradually happening more and more, each one conditioning the next. At this stage, "I'm" content if such contemplation arises, even if it is not a true satipatthana moment.< 25898 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, What reality are you talking about? What do sati and panna know about the reality? Do you know what they know? If you don't know what they know, how are you going to know what they know? You think that only sati and panna will know precisely what the reality is. Are you sure about that? Where did you get the idea that only sati and panna will know precisely what the reality is? Peace, Victor > Anyway, I agree with your point. Only sati and panna will know precisely > what the reality is, I think. (I think there may have been some 25899 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Victor, I’d love to refer you to Book 1 of the Points of Controversy, Katthavatthu (Abhidhamma text), ‘Of the Existence of a Personal Entity’. I think you’d enjoy the style of controversial discussion. So many of the points discussed are ones that come up on DSG too. ***** --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, V: > > Who else can understand the Buddha's teaching for you except you > yourself?? > > You are a teacher right?? .... Conventionally speaking only. Here is one short extract. soul is used as a translation for ‘puggala’. the translator gives a note to say that ‘individual, person, or ego would serve equally well in the more psychological considerations’. [181] >Theravadin: Ought it to be said that a soul (puggala) of wrong views is derived from wrong views? Puggalavadin: Yes. T: Ought it to be said that when the wrong views cease to exist, the sould having wrong views ceases to exist? P: nay, that cannot truly be said.... T: Ought it, again, to be said that when any other parts of the Wrong Eightfold Path cease to exist, the soul, said by you to be derived from that part, ceases to exist? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.... T: Similarly, ought it to be said that a soul of right views, or right aspiration, right speech...... is derived from the corresponding part [of the Eightfold Path]? P: Yes. T: Ought it, again, to be said that when the given part ceases, the soul so derived ceases? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.... [183] T: Is the concept of soul derived from material qualities and feeling? P: Yes. T: Then could the concept of a double soul be derived from the pair of aggregates? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said... T: or could the concept of a double soul be derived from material quality coupled with any of the other three aggregates... or the concept of five souls be derived from all five aggregates? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said... T: Is the concept of soul derived from the organs of sight (eye) and hearing (ear)? P: Yes. T: then could the concept ‘two souls’ be derived from the two organs? (and so on....to include all the twelve ayatanas)......< ***** V:>As a teacher, you teach your students and > help them learn. But when they understand something, they learn and > understand it for themselves, they reach their own understanding. > You can teach and help them in their learning process, but you can't > learn and understand it for them. Your understanding is not > theirs. Likewise, when I am thirsty, I would drink some water > myself to quench the thirst. Although others can help me to get the > water, no one else can drink the water and quench the thirst for me. ..... All agreed as long as its with the proviso that there’s no ‘puggala’, no teacher, no students, no me, no you;-) I'm not suggesting the debate above reflects your understanding, Victor, but that the responses reflect what I consider to be right view;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 25900 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > Sarah, what teaching are you talking about?? I would be interested > to see some references regarding the teachings. ..... By 'teachings' I was referring to the entire Suttanta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries. Hope this clarifies (but I doubt it;-)). Metta, Sarah ===== 25901 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Victor again;-), You're a fast reader and typist... --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > What reality are you talking about? .... All namas and rupas as we discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta thread. Also see Nyantiloka's dictionary under 'pramattha'. .... What do sati and panna know > about the reality? .... Sati (as in the development of satipatthana) as the characteristic of being aware of the reality. Panna of knowing the characteristic. do you remember all the threads on sati-sampojanna (sati and panna) in the S.sutta commentary discussions? .... >Do you know what they know? If you don't know > what they know, how are you going to know what they know? You think > that only sati and panna will know precisely what the reality is. > Are you sure about that? Where did you get the idea that only sati > and panna will know precisely what the reality is? .... No me or you to know. When they begin to arise (intellectually in the beginning as Betty said), they start to perform their functions. Gradually as they develop, more confidence develops and there is less doubt about their functions or the nature of realities. We read about sati and panna and the realities (i.e khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, namas and rupas....) throughout the teachings. Do you have any references which suggest realities (paramattha dhammas) are other than these and/or any text to suggest that panna and sati are not involved in the 'penetration' of their characteristics? There will probably be some delays before further responses - I probably will need a day or two away from the computer now for my arm and leg;-( Metta, Sarah ====== 25902 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, Sarah, whom am I addressing this message to?? What is the right view as the Buddha taught?? What is the view that you consider to be the right view?? Is the view that you consider to be the right view the right view as the Buddha taught?? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 25903 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, What are the teachings about? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > > > Sarah, what teaching are you talking about?? I would be interested > > to see some references regarding the teachings. > ..... > By 'teachings' I was referring to the entire Suttanta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma > and ancient commentaries. > > Hope this clarifies (but I doubt it;-)). > > Metta, > > Sarah 25904 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 4:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, Who directly knows?? Sati and panna?? "A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations -- who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge -- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn001.html How do you know reality is nama and rupa? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor again;-), [snip] > > What reality are you talking about? > .... > All namas and rupas as we discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta thread. Also [snip] 25905 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma with distracted mind Hi All The closest passage i could find in the Kathavatthu Atthakatha to>> "Yada cittam blajjamanam hoti tada kammaam bhajjamanam hotiti attho." is "Citta.m bhijjamaananti yadaa citta.m bhijjamaana.m hoti, tadaa kamma.m bhijjatiiti attho." Its from the com. to this Kathavatthu XV,XI passage as Sarah pointed out. Again, you admit of course that karma is coexistent with consciousness and has a mental object, but you do not admit as much of its accumulation. *That is to say, you agree that karma, being coexistent with consciousness is broken off [as mental process] when consciousness is broken off*. But by your view of the different nature of karmic accumulation, you hold that when consciousness stops, karmic accumulation does not [necessarily] stop. So that we may get a cessation of karma as conscious process and a continuation of karmic accumulation as product! Kamma.m cittena sahajaata.m, kamma.m saaramma.nanti? Aamantaa. Kammuupacayo cittena sahajaato, kammuupacayo saaramma.noti? Na heva.m vattabbe 'pe' kammuupacayo cittena sahajaato, kammuupacayo anaaramma.noti? Aamantaa. Kamma.m cittena sahajaata.m, kamma.m anaaramma.nanti? Na heva.m vattabbe 'pe'. Kamma.m cittena sahajaata.m, citta.m bhijjamaana.m kamma.m bhijjatiiti? Aamantaa. Kammuupacayo cittena sahajaato, citta.m bhijjamaana.m kammuupacayo bhijjatiiti? Na heva.m vattabbe 'pe'. Kammuupacayo cittena sahajaato, citta.m bhijjamaana.m kammuupacayo na bhijjatiiti? Aamantaa. Kamma.m cittena sahajaata.m, citta.m bhijjamaana.m kamma.mna bhijjatiiti? Na heva.m vattabbe 'pe'. Com.> "When consciousness is broken off" means that, when consciousness is broken off, karma is broken off. Or, it is an accusative case in the locative sense. It means consciousness being broken off. This is the reading. He assents, because kamma is conjoined with consciousness, and breaks of with it. He denies, because kammic accumulation is automatic and hence does not break off." Citta.m bhijjamaananti yadaa citta.m bhijjamaana.m hoti, tadaa kamma.m bhijjatiiti attho. Bhummatthe vaa paccatta.m, citte bhijjamaaneti attho. Ayameva vaa paa.tho. Tattha yasmaa sampayutto bhijjati, vippayutto na bhijjati,tasmaa pa.tijaanaati ceva pa.tikkhipati ca. Steve ps Sarah, yes i did attend the cooran weekend and it was wonderful catching up with everyone,talking Dhamma, looking at Mars etc.. and as always looking forward to the next one. Once again thanks to Andrew. 25906 From: Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, Sarah - Just a few replies to a few points, and some significant snipping: In a message dated 10/7/03 5:51:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I thought you made some very good points in our discussion and hope you > find a slight bowing in your direction in my comments too;-): > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > A brief comment, bowing ever so slightly in your direction. I > >still > >maintain that concepts are simply ideas, and ideas are mind-door > >objects, and > >are namas. > ..... > We all agree that ideas/concepts are mind-door objects. Are you quite sure > that in other posts you haven’t explained to others that concepts are not > namas???;-) > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: To the best of my knowledge, I've only written of concepts (i.e. ideas) as namas. When I may say something to the effect that such-and-such is "concept-only," my meaning is that the alleged such-and-such doesn't truly exist, but that all there is is the concept of it (applied to a particular sequence of mentally unconstructed, directly observed phenomena). As I think about this issue a bit further, a thought occurs to me: Concepts/ideas are mental objects which are mind-constructed. They are actually constructed by mental activity and actually observed via the mind door, and they are not rupas, and so I count them as namas. If, however, a nama must, itself, take an actual object, then many ideas/concepts fail that test. But I'm not at all sure that is a good test. Feelings do not take objects, though they are *associated* with objects. In fact, very often a feeling is arises from the cognizing of an object which is a concept (idea)! Also, nibbana is classified as a nama, and it takes no object. So I'm not persuaded that the object-taking test is a valid one for what constitutes namas - it is sufficient, but not necessary. ------------------------------------------------ > .... > [...] > Ideas and concepts are quite complex, > >difficult to > >grasp, multi-formed, multi-layered, and elusive (and illusive!) - but > >they > >*are* mind-door objects. > .... > Yes. However complex, they are by definition merely conceptualisations. > The aim of the teachings is not to understand the multi-layered concepts, > papanca, stories, imaginations and so on, but to directly know namas and > rupas, namas as being defined as consisting of cittas and cetasikas (and > nibbana) only. By directly knowing these ‘truths’, we begin to see the > futility of that insight can ever arise merely from ‘working out’ the > concepts or ideas;-) > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Grasping stories is exactly how we begin to understand the Dhamma. Thank goodness we can grasp and analyze stories! Mundane understanding is an important support (among several) for wisdom. (Note to Sukin: I don't deny that! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > .... > > I find unacceptable the notion that penetration with wisdom of > >any > >mind-door object is impossible. > .... > Me too;-) Namas and rupas can be known with penetrative wisdom as > mind-door objects. Indeed, namas can only be known as mind-door objects as > they never arise as sense-door objects. Concepts can be the object of > panna (wisdom), for example in the development of samatha or of jhanas. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Unless I'm mistaken, I do believe I have read you to say in the past that pa~n~na cannot take concepts as objects. --------------------------------------------------- > But, only namas and rupas can be the object of vipassana panna. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then there would no way to know with transformative wisdom that concepts have no actual references! As I see it, vipassana pa~n~na can "penetrate" concepts to see how they are fabricated, to see the paramattha dhammas from which they are fabricated, and to see their illusive nature, their being empty of the actual reference they *seem* to have. ---------------------------------------------------- Hope this> > clarifies. It’s the same in the suttas as I read them. > .... > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s Have you had a chance to visit the monastery we discussed? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, unfortunately not yet. My mother-in-law, who was in rehab following major open-heart surgery, hasn't been doing so well. A little over a week ago, at our insistance, she went back into the hospital. Thank goodness we were on top of her situation and didn't listen to the people at the rehab center. She really does need to be back in the hospital. In fact, just yesterday she was moved into the critical care unit to be monitored for receiving a certain type of I.V. heart medication. So, it looks like that monastery visit will have to wait a bit longer. Thank you for asking, Sarah! ================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25907 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 10:41am Subject: Tiika, Vis. 20 Tiika, Vis. 20 Relevant text Visuddhimagga: Vis. 20 (11). As regards the tetrads, in the first tetrad, knowledge that occurs contingent upon the truth of suffering is "knowledge of suffering"; knowledge that occurs contingent upon the origin of suffering is "knowledge of the origin of suffering"; knowledge that occurs contingent upon the cessation of suffering is "knowledge of the cessation of suffering"; and knowledge that occurs contingent upon the way leading to the cessation of suffering is "knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering". So it is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths. 20. catukkesu pa.thamacatukke dukkhasacca.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhe ~naa.na.m. dukkhasamudaya.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhasamudaye~naa.na.m. dukkhanirodha.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhanirodhe~naa.na.m. dukkhanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya ~naa.nanti eva.m catuusu saccesu~naa.navasena catubbidhaa ******* Tiika 20: words: aarabbha: beginning, referring to paccavekkha.na: contemplation, reflection vidhamati: destroy sesa: remaining itara: other pa.ticchaadeti: cover, conceal. pa.ticchaadaka: concealing, hiding dvaya: twofold paakata: wellknown, generally known 20. dukkhasacca.m aarabbhaati dukkhasacca.m aaramma.na.m katvaa, As to the words, with reference to the truth of dukkha, this means, when understanding makes the truth of dukkha its object, tappa.ticchaadakasammohavidha.msanavasena ca pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhe~naa.na.m. and it occurs because of the elimination of delusion that is concealing it *, that is understanding concerning dukkha. dukkhasamudaya.m aarabbhaati etthaapi eseva nayo. As to the words, with reference to the arising of dukkha, this is also according to that method. tathaa sesapadadvayepi. And likewise with regard to the remaining two words. paccavekkha.na~naa.na.m hi catusacca.m aarabbha pavatta~naa.na.m naama, Understanding contingent upon the four truths is called knowledge of contemplation, tatiya.m pana magga~naa.na.m, but it is well known that the understanding contingent upon the third truth is path-knowledge, itarasaccaani vipassanaa~naa.nanti paaka.tameva. whereas that contingent upon the other truths is insight knowledge. ****** English: As to the words, with reference to the truth of dukkha, this means, when understanding makes the truth of dukkha its object, and it occurs because of the elimination of delusion that is concealing it *, that is understanding concerning dukkha. As to the words, with reference to the arising of dukkha, this is also according to that method. And likewise with regard to the remaining two words. Understanding contingent upon the four truths is called knowledge of contemplation, but it is well known that the understanding contingent upon the third truth is path-knowledge **, whereas that contingent upon the other truths is insight knowledge. ________ * Delusion conceals the truth of dukkha. ** This is supermundane understanding, lokuttara pa~n~naa. ******* Nina. 25908 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 20, the four Truths. Dear Larry, I found the dict rather complicated, especially as to which truth eliminates what. I compared with Vis. XVI, 84. This gives alterantives to each explanation which makes it clearer. op 07-10-2003 05:17 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "So it is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths." > Here are a few lines from the "Buddhist Dictionary" > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm > > "Of the mundane kinds of knowledge, however, the knowledge of suffering > by which (various) prejudices are overcome, dispels the > personality-belief (sakkáya-dilthi, s. ditthi). N: Vis states: When we speak of dukkha we have to think of impermanence, it arises and falls away immediately. We experience an unpleasant object, and think of important me who has to receive such vipaka. But, as I heard on tape this morning: See, what we learn here we have to apply now, otherwise we only understand the theory. L quotes:The knowledge of the > origin of suffering dispels the annihilation-view (uccheda-ditthi, s. > ditthi); N: Vis states: When we do not understand that lobha is the cause of dukkha, and we do not understand that there are conditions for being born again and again (arising is dukkha), we may have annihilation belief, not seeing condiitons for rebirth, or other kinds of belief like belief in a creator. L quotes: the knowledge of extinction of suffering, the eternity-view > (sassata-ditthi, s. ditthi); N: Vis states: Thus one believes in eternal life, in a kind of heaven. L quotes:the knowledge of the path, the view of > inefficacy of action (akiriya-ditthi, s. ditthi)" (Vis.M. XVI, 85). N: Vis states: Thus, one does not know the middle way. One takes for the Path what is not the Path. This we have to consider now, in daily life. We are bound to have wrong ideas as to the practice, only the sotapanna has eradicated these. Is there some clinging to doing particular things which can cause the arising of insight? We have to know the right cause of the right effect: developing insight stage by stage, beginning by distinguishing what nama is, different from rupa, and what rupa is. By being aware of one characteristic at a time (only one!) as it appears through one of the six doors. As Sukin stresses: the theory has to be right so that the practice can be right. > > Larry: Apparently mundane knowledge that desire causes suffering dispels > the belief in a self that dies, and mundane knowledge of nibbana dispels > belief in an eternal soul. I'm guessing this means: > 1. Seeing the continuity of desire and suffering we can see the > continuity of the khandhas (the objects of desire). Further, "self" > could not be an object of desire because desire implies not having and > if there were a self there could be no not having of it. N: The wrong view of self goes together with desire, it is citta rooted in attachment and accompanied by wrong view. L: 2. The correct conceptual understanding of nibbana is that nibbana is a > mere cessation. N: Not clear enough. In how far is there conceptual understanding of nibbana, hard to know. We can have some understanding of what nibbana is not. Let us go back to Vis: we can have intellectual understanding that nibbana is not an eternal heaven. Nina. 25909 From: Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah I believe personality-view or belief, or however we want to phrase it comes in three basic "strengths." 1) The most subtle is associated with the sense of "mine." 2) The next level is the idea/sense of "I." 3) The last (most gross) is the belief/view of a "self" or "myself." I believe the streamwinner has only eradicated the last of these levels. The streamwinner still has the idea or sense of "I" and "mine" which is why attachment, conceit, ignorance, restlessness, and desire for future "being" still persists. Other than the more gross belief/view/theory of self, they still see things with 'self-view' (as I understand it.) Appreciate your response as well. :) TG 25910 From: Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 21 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 21. 12. In the second tetrad, the four kinds of knowledge classed as that concerned with meaning, etc., are called the "four discriminations". For this is sad: 'Knowledge about meaning is the discrimination of meaning (attha-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about law is the discrimination of law (dhamma-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law is the discrimination of language (nirutti-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about kinds of knowledge is discrimination of perspicuity (pa.tibhaana-pa.tisambhidaa)' (Vbh. 293). 25911 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 5:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Derek, Nina & James, > James, I know this isn't satisfactory to you and probably sounds like > another brain-washed explanation, but I think we just have to accept that > the wording may be ambiguous and select what interpretation we wish (or > until the Dhamma Congress reports back with more info;-)). > > I'm also reminded of some old English riddles I used to hear as a child, > which also depend on the punctuation. Here's one: > > charles 1 walked and talked half an hour after his head was chopped off > How?* > > Metta, > > Sarah > Hi Sarah, LOL! No, this explanation doesn't sound like a brainwashed explanation (when you start to get into that no-control, meditation is dangerous/unnecessary kick that you sound brainwashed), this just sounds like a simple case of selective attention. Granting that the one line in Pali is ambiguous (which I will have to take Derek's word for that) the other details of the incident combined with that one ambiguous line makes the whole incident far from ambiguous. That is just common sense. The commentaries come up with this fantastic story that isn't suggested by the text at all, that isn't ambiguous either. I guess each person needs to decide for him/herself which answer is the most plausible. I believe it is more plausible that the Buddha got sick from that meal and died; those are definitely what the facts point to. Since you refer to old English riddles, I will refer to an old English philosopher: William of Occam, the medieval philosopher, set forth the logical principal of `Occam's Razor,' which states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. Metta, James 25912 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Dear Sarah, as you say, so hard to detect. We can also cling to "me" just with lobha, no wrong view or conceit. If there is an opportunity in Myanmar, may be a point for discussion? It will always come back to us. Nina. op 07-10-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I am > quite sure that at the higher stages of insight any lingering > sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthi are extremely subtle. Even now, amongst > grosser forms, I am sure there are many subtle variants that we have > little idea about. Quite possibly, too, that many so called conceits (or > sense-of-self’ cittas), may with more wisdom turn out to be one form of > ditthi or other. They follow each other so very closely, I find. 25913 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 10:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, Larry: Put 5 khandhas together and you get a person. Five people together is a committee. Five committees is a government. All these are real by the definition of distinctly arising (sabhava), correct? Sukin: But the khandhas rise and fall, so at which point does it constitute a person? Metta, Sukin. 25914 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 10:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, > No problem, and you are welcome. :-) > Even if you stated "That all there is are the cittas, cetasikas, > rupa, and Nibbana. Aside from this, nothing does, all being concept > only!", that view is still not the right view as the Buddha taught. > Why not? If you compare the view above with what the Buddha taught > right view is and what Sariputta explained in Sammaditthi Sutta, you > would see that right view is not a view on what exists and what does > not exist, what are real, what are not real. In addition, the > Buddha's teaching is not about what a being is or what a thing is. > Inquiry and assertion along the line of what exists, and what does > not exist, what are real, what are not real, what a being is, or > what a thing is belong to the domain of metaphysics. I was aware of this point which you often make and which I think is a good reminder. And this is partly why I referred also to the 4NT and dependent origination. Also I had other things in mind with regard to the limitation of my understanding, none of which was a question of existence / non existence. While I agree that question about existence and non-existence should not be our concern, I do not think that this is a problem with anyone here on dsg. Any question about what is real and what is not, is usually in response to views which hold that `conventional reality' can be the object of insight. And behind all this is not so much `knowledge of existents' as such, but the teaching of Satipatthana and what *are* the objects of sati of this level. Also the discussions often center on the difference between samatha and vipassana, and since these two have different objects, one being `concept' and other being `a reality', the difference need to be stressed. And of course the very basic difference between your approach and that of some of us, `Suttanta vs. Abhidhamma, puts you in a position of viewing our approach as being reliance on `lists of existents'. But this is not so. The lists of Abhidhamma is not about `charting out experiences', but serve as reminders when and if conditions allow, for them to condition a deeper appreciation of the reality of the moment. But of course imho, studying the Abhidhamma has positive influence in other ways as well. Even when it is all `theory', the reasoning in terms of causal relations being grounded on the way things are and not on abstracts as in the study of logic, can have a powerful influence on one's understanding of experiences. (But don't ask me exactly how. ;-)) Also, I am speculating, that all of us not being enlightened yet have still quite a bit of `doubt' accumulated. And this mental factor can often cause us to quiver around whether something is real or not. So under such circumstance I think it is good to be reminded about cittas, cetasikas and rupa. > It is good to know that you will read Sammaditthi Sutta over and > over again. I would not assume that you will never understand it. I do believe that I have an infinite tendency to ignorance and doubt, so I look at the empty portion the glass. ;-) But of course, there is no need to `assume' one way or the other. > Regarding your observations, I would say that: > > Try to first understand what the Buddha's teaching is about. Then > try to examine your observations and see if they in accord and/or > relevant to the Buddha's teaching. I think this is what I am already doing. But I think what you are saying, is that the Suttas is where I should place my attention, and to keep away from the Abhidhamma. Right?! :-) Metta, Sukin. 25915 From: june_tg Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 3:08am Subject: buddhist publication society Hi, Hows everyone doing? Has anyone here ever ordered directly from the Buddhist Publication Society? It's quite strange, am I being too impatient, or is it normal to usually take more than 1 week to reply? I really don't want to complain, but I wonder what's going with my order. I don't want to keep writing, because I don't want to be pushy, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And it's quite a large order, about 300 US$. Does anyone here know what I'm talking about? Thanks. June 25916 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] buddhist publication society June Last time I dealt with BPS (some time ago now), I found that emails did not elicit a response but a faxed order did. I don't know if the same still applies. On a subsequent occasion I ordered through Pariyatti, who have a large BPS catalogue. They were quite efficient in dealing with my order. Email worked fine. My own experience, anyway. Jon http://www.pariyatti.com/ --- june_tg wrote: > Hi, > > Hows everyone doing? Has anyone here ever ordered directly from the > Buddhist Publication Society? It's quite strange, am I being too > impatient, or is it normal to usually take more than 1 week to > reply? > I really don't want to complain, but I wonder what's going with my > order. I don't want to keep writing, because I don't want to be > pushy, > but I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And it's quite a large > order, about 300 US$. > > Does anyone here know what I'm talking about? > > Thanks. > June 25917 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard] > Also, nibbana is classified as a nama... Are you sure? 25918 From: Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 3:51am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Dan - In a message dated 10/8/03 9:26:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dhd5@c... writes: > >Also, nibbana is classified as a nama... > > Are you sure? > ============================ No, I'm not. I've read from folks on this list that nibbana is so classified in Abhidhamma, and I have seen what I consider to be mental contortions gone through to attempt to justify this categorization. Nothing of this sort occurs in the suttas, of course, where it merely says that nibbana is the end of suffering or absence of defilements or things of that sort. When it was said on DSG (a while back) that nibbana is a nama, I took that as a basis for identifying nibbana with so-called unmanifestive discernment (an objectless consciousness). But, frankly, I think that nibbana is an absence pure and simple - specifically the absence of dukkha, the absence of defilements - and the only sense in which it should be construed as a nama is that it is not a rupa, which leaves just the category of nama under the assumption that everything must be nama or rupa. I would be just as happy to say that nibbana is neither nama nor rupa, because it is not the presence of something at all, but an absence. All that "exist" (or, better, all that appear) are namas and rupas, infected by the three poisons in all but the arahant, and the absence of these defilements, which is also the absence of dukkha, is what nibbana is, and with such an absence, the "world" of apparently separate, self-sufficient "things", including namas and rupas as usually perceived, is gone (or radically transformed) as I see the matter. Of course I have no positive inkling of what the suchness is that is the direct experience of an arahant. The view from nibbana, the view "above the clouds", is not available to us. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25919 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 8:51am Subject: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Meal: To Nina and Sarah Dear Nina, Sarah, Christine, Mike Niece, Robert K, Derek and all, How are you? Nina asked: "I would like to know what the Saddaniti has to say, ....?" The following is my quick translation of the verse on the Buddha's last meal. "Cundassa bhattam bhuñjitvaa, kammaarassaati me sutam; aabaadham samphusii dhiiro, pabaa.lham maara.nantikam. Bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena, byaadhippabaa.lho udapaadi satthuno; virecamaano bhagavaa avoca, gacchaamaham kusinaaram nagaranti. "It was heard by me that the Buddha experienced fatally severe sickness, After eating Cunda's food, of the son of goldsmith. And when having eaten his lunch with tender pork cuisine, Severe disorder occurred to the Teacher of the Universe. The Mighty One, losing diarrhoeaic blood, said, "Let's go to the City of Kusinaara". Section 190, Mahaaparinibbana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo GRAMMAR RULES for the expression " Bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena" Buttassa - Cha.t.thii vibhatti meaning genitive case. The equally correct syntax in place of "buttassa" is "butte" - Sattamii vibhatti meaning locative case. Both genitive case and locative case are used to express the sense of the action of one verb while or when the action of another verb is taking place or has taken place as in the above verse. Please see the following rules in Saddaniiti Suttamaalaa. Suttam 633: Anaadaramhi ca. Anaadaramhi ca gamyamaane bhaavavataa li`ngamhaa cha.t.thiivibhatti hoti sattamii ca. Aphorism 633: And, in the case of the verb showing disrespect. "When the case of the verb showing disrespect is to be known, the sixth case comes after the bare noun having the verb that gets disrespected or the seventh case does similarly." One of the examples given is from Section 2169, Vessantara Jaataka, Jaataka Pali, Volume 2. "Aako.tayanto te neti Siviraajassa pekkhato" "While the Sivi King (Vessantaro) watching, the Brahmin beating the two children lead them away." In the above example, the verb to lead is the verb showing disrespect while the verb to watch is the verb getting disrespect. We can reconstruct the expression "Siviraajassa pekkhato" as "Siviraajassa pekkhassa". When we get the term "pekkhassa", that can easily remind us of the expression "buttassa". Finally we get the expression "Buddhassa buttassa". In the verse on the Buddha's last meal, the verb to eat is the verb getting disrespect while the verb to occur is the verb to show disrespect. Thus, we finally get the following alternative translation. "Despite having lunch with tender pork cuisine, Severe disorder occurred to the Teacher of the Universe." This alternative translation is exactly and literally in line with the Pali grammar rule. In my opinion, the commentator commented on that phrase in light of the Pali grammar rule. In short, the tender pork cuisine was the food that kept the Buddha going, rather than something that ruined him. When we reconstruct the expression "Buddhassa buttassa" as the expression "Buddhe butte" using the seventh case, we get a neutral general while/when syntax under the rule 644: Kaalebhaavesu ca. We can use the same translations as above for examples. When we know how the writer of the verse had carefully chosen the right syntax to convey the correct sense of the event, we get the lines of the verse right. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: I would like to know what the Saddaniti has to say, perhaps we shift to Pali list? 25920 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 9:57am Subject: Re: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Meal: To Nina and Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > "It was heard by me that > the Buddha experienced fatally severe sickness, > After eating Cunda's food, of the son of goldsmith. > And when having eaten his lunch with tender pork cuisine, > Severe disorder occurred to the Teacher of the Universe. > The Mighty One, losing diarrhoeaic blood, said, > "Let's go to the City of Kusinaara". Hi Suan, I think this first translation is probably the more spot on; that second one required a lot of semantic juggling in my estimation (I am not ashamed to admit that I could barely follow you...I bet I am not alone either). I think it is interesting that the suttas describe the meal as 'tender pork cuisine'; hmmmm...I wonder why it was so tender? A good guess would be that it was probably undercooked. Here is an entry from encyclopedia.com that parallels the symptoms of the Lord Buddha after he ate this meal of tender (undercooked?) meat: In 1982 a particularly toxic strain of E. coli, E. coli 0157:H7, was identified; it produces a toxin that damages cells that line the intestines. Usually transmitted via raw or undercooked ground meat (thought to become contaminated during slaughter or processing), the strain can potentially contaminate any food and can also be spread by infected persons. Symptoms, which begin 1 to 8 days after infection and last for about a week, include bloody diarrhea, abdominal pain, vomiting, and in some cases, fever. The most serious complication is a hemolytic-uremic syndrome that can lead to kidney failure and death, especially in children. There is no treatment other than supportive care. Practical preventive measures include thorough cooking of meat and careful hygiene around infected individuals. http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/Escheri_E.ColiFoodPoisoning.a sp Metta, James 25921 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 10:12am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta 16 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta 16 B Commentary 16 B ***** Relevant Sutta passage: Atha kho aayasmaa Raahulo saayanhasamaya.m pa.tisallaanaa vu.t.thito.... Then, at evening time, the venerable Rahula got up from solitude Commentary text: tassa panaayasmato -- ``bhagavaa ma.m vihaare ohiina.m jaanantopi However, the following thoughts did not occur to the venerable Rahula: ³Although the Blessed One knows that I am left behind in the monastery, attanaa laddhapi.n.dapaata.m naapi saya.m gahetvaa aagato, he has not, after he has personally received alsmfood, taken it and come himself, na a~n~nassa hatthe pahi.ni, na manussaana.m sa~n~na.m adaasi, nor did he send me food through someone else, nor did he inform others about it, upajjhaayopi me ohiinabhaava.m jaananto tatheva na ki~nci akaasii''ti cittampi na uppanna.m. nor indeed did my preceptor do anything at all, although he knows that I am left behind.² kuto tappaccayaa omaana.m vaa atimaana.m vaa janessati. Why should he because of that arouse self-disrespect or pride? bhagavataa pana aacikkhitakamma.t.thaanameva purebhattampi pacchaabhattampi -- Rahula contemplated the meditation subject that was explained to him by the Blessed One before and after his meal thus: ``itipi ruupa.m anicca.m, itipi dukkha.m, itipi asubha.m, itipi anattaa''ti ³Materiality truly is impermanent, it truly is unsatisfactory, it truly is foul, it truly is non-self². aggi.m abhimatthento viya nirantara.m manasikatvaa saayanhasamaye cintesi -- After he had contemplated this continuously, just as someone who tries to kindle a fire, the following thoughts occurred to him towards evening: ``aha.m upajjhaayena aanaapaanassati.m bhaavehiiti vutto, ³Since my preceptor has told me to develop mindfulness of breathing, tassa vacana.m karissaami. aacariyupajjhaayaana~nhi vacana.m akaronto dubbaco naama hoti. I shall be obedient. Someone who does not obey his teacher and his preceptor, is called obstinate. `dubbaco raahulo, upajjhaayassapi vacana.m na karotii'ti ca garahuppattito kakkha.lataraa pii.laa naama natthii''ti Nothing is more oppressive and hard than the occurrence of the reproach, ŒRahula is obstinate, he does not obey his preceptor.¹ ² bhaavanaavidhaana.m pucchitukaamo bhagavato santika.m agamaasi. He visited the Blessed One because he was eager to ask about the method of mental development. ta.m dassetu.m atha kho aayasmaa raahulotiaadi vutta.m. In order to explain this, Ananda said the words, ³then, (at evening time,) the venerable Rahula (got up from solitude) etc.² ****** English: However, the following thoughts did not occur to the venerable Rahula: ³Although the Blessed One knows that I am left behind in the monastery, he has not, after he has personally received alsmfood, taken it and come himself, nor did he send me food through someone else, nor did he inform others about it, nor indeed did my preceptor do anything at all, although he knows that I am left behind.² Why should he because of that arouse self-disrespect or pride? Rahula contemplated the meditation subject that was explained to him by the Blessed One before and after his meal thus: ³Materiality truly is impermanent, it truly is unsatisfactory, it truly is foul, it truly is non-self². After he had contemplated this continuously, just as someone who tries to kindle ³ Since my preceptor has told me to develop mindfulness of breathing, I shall be obedient. Someone who does not obey his teacher and his preceptor, is called obstinate. Nothing is more oppressive and hard than the occurrence of the reproach, ŒRahula is obstinate, he does not obey his preceptor.¹ ² He visited the Blessed One because he was eager to ask about the method of mental development. In order to explain this, Ananda said the words, ³then, (at evening time,) the venerable Rahula (got up from solitude) etc.² ******* Nina. 25922 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 10:12am Subject: Dhamma Issue 13, Devas reborn with an ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta. no 1. Chapter 13. (No 1) Devas reborn with an ahetuka kusala vipåkacitta. Introduction [1]. Human birth is the result of kusala kamma performed by kåmåvacara cittas, cittas of the sense-sphere. Kusala kamma has different degrees and therefore the result has also different degrees. Some people are born with a rebirth-consciousness, patisandhi-citta, that is ahetuka kusala vipåka, not accompanied by beautiful roots. Others are born with a patisandhi-citta that is sahetuka kusala vipåka, accompanied by two beautiful roots, by alobha (non-attachment) and adosa (non-aversion), or by three beautiful roots, by alobha, adosa and paññå. When the patisandhi-citta is ahetuka kusala vipåkacitta, the kamma which produced it is weaker than the kamma which produces a patisandhi-citta that is sahetuka kusala vipåka. Human beings who are born with a patisandhi-citta that is ahetuka kusala vipåka are handicapped from the first moment of life. Eyesense or earsense do not develop or they have other defects. There are two types of ahetuka vipåkacitta that can perform the function of patisandhi, namely: santírana akusala vipåkacitta and santírana kusala vipåkacitta. Santírana-citta is ahetuka vipåka. When it arises in a sense-door process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the five senses, it performs the function of investigating the object. However, it can also perform the function of patisandhi and in that case it does not arise in a sense-door process and it does not investigate an object. The same citta can perform more than one function, but at different moments and at different occasions. There are three kinds of santíraùa-citta: 1. Santírana-citta which is akusala vipåka, accompanied by indifferent feeling (upekkhå) 2. Santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka, accompanied by indifferent feeling (upekkhå) 3. Santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka, accompanied by pleasant feeling (somanassa). The santírana-citta which is akusala vipåka, accompanied by indifferent feeling, can perform the function of patisandhi in a woeful plane: the animal world, the world of ghosts (petas), the world of demons (asuras) and the hell planes. This means, that the this type of patìsandhi-citta is the same type of citta as the akusala vipåkacitta which performs the function of investigating, santírana, in a sense-door process. The santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka, accompanied by indifferent feeling, can, apart from the function of investigating in a sense-door process, also perform the function of patisandhi in the human plane and in heavenly planes. The santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka, accompanied by pleasant feeling, cannot perform the function of patisandhi. This Issue deals with the question whether devas who are born with a rebirth-consciousness which is santírana-citta kusala vipåka are, just as in the case of humans, handicapped from the first moment of life, or whether they are not handicapped. ******* Issue of Analysis: Can devas who are reborn with a patisandhi-citta that is kusala vipåka santírana-citta accompanied by upekkhå be handicapped from birth? Can they be blind, deaf or can they have other handicaps? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: As far as available sources explain, it is not stated whether devas who are born with such vipåkacitta are handicapped from birth or not. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The Commentary to the ³Dhammasangani², the ³Expositor² (II, Book I, Part X, Ch I, 265). 2. The Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha¹, the ³Sumangalavilåsiní², Commentary to the ³Mahånidånasutta²(D II, no 15). 3. Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 111 4. Abhidhammattha Sangaha, a Manual of Abhidhamma, Ch 5. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: 1. The ³Expositor², the Commentary to the ³Dhammasangani² (II, Book I, Part X, Ch I, 265) states: ³And the second mind-consciousness element (mano-viññåna dhåtu) becomes a result on five occasions [2]. How? At the time when the blind, the deaf, the foolish, the mad, a hermaphrodite, or a neutre takes conception in the world of men, such consciousness takes effect as conception...² This text explains about the rebirth with santírana-citta which is ahetuka kusala vipåka, accompanied by indifferent feeling, of those who are handicapped, who are blind, deaf, foolish, mad, a hermaphrodite, or an eunuch. It deals with birth only in the human plane, and it does not speak about the deva planes. 2. We read in the ³Sumangalavilåsiní ², Commentary to the Dialogues of the Buddha, Mahå-nidåna sutta, an explanation of the following words of the Mahå-nidåna sutta (translated by Ven. Bodhi): ³Beings who are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the lower realms.² The Commentary states: ³ ¹Some gods¹ (ekkacce ca): the gods of the six sense-sphere heavens [3]. For these may have bodies that are blue, yellow, etc., and their perception may be triple-rooted or double rooted, though not rootless. ³Some beings in lower realms²: such beings as the female spirits (yakkhiní) Uttaramåtå, Piyankaramåtå, Phussamittå, Dhammaguttå [4], etc., and other spirits who live in places outside the four planes of misery. For their bodies are of diverse colours, shapes, and sizes, and like humans their perception may be double-rooted, triple-rooted or rootless. But unlike the gods they are not powerful; they are powerless like low-class humans. They have trouble finding food and clothing and live oppressed by pain. Some are afflicted during the dark fortnight and happy during the bright fortnight. Therefore, they have fallen from the height of happiness, they are called ³beings in the lower realms² [5] . Those among them who are triple-rooted can achieve comprehension of the Dhamma.² We then read that the yakkhiní Piyaòkara¹s mother who had heard the Elder Anuruddha reciting Dhamma became a sotåpanna. Footnotes: 1. I wrote this Introduction. 2. Mind-consciousness-element, mano-viññåna dhåtu, includes all cittas except the sense-cognitions and the cittas which are mind-element, mano-dhåtu. Mind-element comprises the five-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of receiving-consciousness which are kusala vipåka and akusala vipåka. ³The second mind-consciousness-element², named by the Expositor, is the santírana-citta which is ahetuka kusala vipåkacitta, accompanied by indifferent feeling. This becomes a result on five occasions: as rebirth-consciousness, as life-continuum, as investigating-consciousness, as dying-consciousness and as registration (tadårammana). 3. There are six classes of devas belonging to the sensuous sphere. The lowest class is the class of the ŒFour Great Kings², catumahåråjika devas. Of these again the earth-bound or terrestial devas, bhummadevatå, are the lowest in rank. The commentary uses the word saññå, perception, which can be accompanied by two roots or three roots. That means: they are born with a rebirth-consciousness accompanied by two roots or three roots. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum and dying-consciousness are of the same type of citta. 4. The Visuddhimagga XII, 39, explains that these female spirits could fly through the air. 5. Footnote by Ven. Bodhi: Ordinarily the ³beings in the lower realms², vinipåtika, are identified with the denizens of the four planes of misery. But here the term is used to refer to other classes of beings outside the planes of misery.² The plane of Petas, ghosts, and the plane of Asuras, demons, are unhappy planes, but in some cases the words peta and asura are used for devas of the lowest class. A peta with a heavenly mansion or palace, vimåna, is a vemånika peta. This peta is a deva of the lowest class of the ³Four Great Kings². (Translated from Thai) Nina. (will be continued) ****** 25923 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Verse On The Buddha's Last Meal: To Nina and Sarah Dear Suan, Most interesting. I am delighted you gave us the Saddaniti. You use the expression disrespect, a verb showing disrespect, and this I do not understand yet. Could you please give a further explanation? With many thanks, Nina. op 08-10-2003 17:51 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > In short, the tender pork cuisine was the food that kept the Buddha > going, rather than something that ruined him. > > When we reconstruct the expression "Buddhassa buttassa" as the > expression "Buddhe butte" using the seventh case, we get a neutral > general while/when syntax under the rule 644: Kaalebhaavesu ca. We > can use the same translations as above for examples. > > When we know how the writer of the verse had carefully chosen the > right syntax to convey the correct sense of the event, we get the > lines of the verse right. 25924 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry Sorry for the delay in getting back. . --- Larry wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I agree any kusala mental action (javana?) would have an element of > tranquility in it and this action could arise "spontaneously" for > anyone, depending on accumulations etc. Yes, and not only could it arise spontaneously for anyone, it can (and no doubt does) occur spontaneously for each of us, to a greater or lesser degree, in our daily lives. Would you also agree with this? Jon > ps: I was wondering about different kinds of tranquility. Would all > of the following be considered different kinds of tranquility: ...tranquility cetasikas, Passaddhi cetasika is a cetasika that accompanies every kusala citta. In this sense, tranquillity is as aspect of all forms of kusala. ...jhana cittas, Jhaana cittas are the outcome of the development of samatha (samatha bhavana) to a very high degree of concentration. Samatha bhavana is often translated as 'tranquillity meditation'. Jhaana cittas are kusala cittas. ...path and fruition cittas, Path citta (magga citta) is the outcome of the development of insight (vipassana bhavana) to a very high degree. It is a supramundane kusala citta. Fruition citta (phala citta) follows immediately after path citta and is the result of that immediately preceding magga citta. As a vipaka citta, it is not said to have the quality of tranquillity (vipaka cittas are accompanied by the 7 'universal' cetasikas only). > When the bhavanga cittas are arising, is that > tranquility? This goes back to my thinking that dreamless sleep is > tranquility. I'm guessing that tranquility isn't just a minimum of > sense door activity but rather there has to be a virtuous intention > that conditions it. So if one went to sleep with a virtuous > intention > wouldn't that be tranquility? Or would it be more correct to say > the intention has an element of tranquility but not the sleep > (bhavanga)? Bhavanga cittas are vipaka cittas. They are the result of deeds (kamma) performed in a previous life. They do not take on the quality of, and are quite unaffected by, the preceding kusala or akusala cittas. > Does tranquility have a particular quality, sort of soft and gentle > (not corpse-like)? Free from akusala and the restlesness that accompanies avery moment of akusala. Definitely not corpse-like (whatever that is) ;-). Good questions, Larry. 25925 From: Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 3:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I agree kusala citta could arise for anyone depending on conditions. You are certainly taking a long time to develop this argument. Larry 25926 From: Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Sukin: "But the khandhas rise and fall, so at which point does it constitute a person?" Hi Sukin, At birth. Some might say before then. Larry 25927 From: Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 21 Hi all, Below is the definition of "patisambhida" in the PTS Dict. I was wondering what "resolving" means in "resolving continuous breaking up". How do you get "resolving" from "pati"? It seems that this is rather esoteric knowledge; so I'm wondering if "analysis" or "discrimination" is really suitable as a translation since anyone can analyze or discriminate. Larry Patisambhida (p. 400) (f.) [pati+san+bhid; the BSk. pratisanvid is a new formation resting on confusion between bhid & vid, favoured by use & meaning of latter root in P. patisanvidita. In BSk. we find pratisanvid in same application as in P., viz. as fourfold artha° dharma° nirukti° pratibhana° (?). MVastu III.321] lit. "resolving continuous breaking up," i. e. analysis, analytic insight, discriminating knowledge. See full discussion & expln of term at Kvu trsln 377--382. Always referred to as "the four branches of logical analysis" (catasso or catupatisambhida), viz. attha° analysis of meanings "in extension"; dhamma° of reasons, conditions, or causal relations; nirutti° of [meanings "in intension" as given in] definitions patibhana° or intellect to which things knowable by the foregoing processes are presented (after Kvu trsln). In detail at A II.160; III.113. 120; Ps I.88, 119; II.150, 157, 185, 193; Vbh 293--305; VbhA 386 sq. (cp. Vism 440 sq.), 391 sq. -- See further A I.22; IV.31; Nd2 386 under patibhanavant; Ps I.84. 132, 134; II.32, 56, 116, 189; Miln 22 (attha--dh°nirutti--patibhana--paramippatta), 359; VvA 2; DhA IV.70 (catusu p--° asu cheka). p°--patta one who has attained mastership in analysis A I.24; III.120; Ps II.202. -- Often included in the attainment of Arahant [p. 401] ship, in formula "saha patisambhidahi arahattan papunati," viz. Miln 18; DhA II.58, 78, 93. 25928 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I agree kusala citta could arise for anyone depending on > conditions. But I'm wondering whether you agree that there are moments of samatha occurring in your daily life, such as the examples I have instanced earlier. > You are certainly taking a long time to develop this argument. And you are taking a long time to give a direct answer on this particular point ;-)). Jon 25929 From: Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 6:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "I'm wondering whether you agree that there are moments of samatha occurring in your daily life, such as the examples I have instanced earlier." Hi Jon, Yes. Larry 25930 From: Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 7:12pm Subject: patisambhida Hi all, Here is a proposal for a translation: According to the PTS Dictionary "patisambhida" literally means "resolving continuous breaking up". The "breaking up" comes from "bhid" and usually refers to breaking into parts, hence "analysis". Suppose we say "resolving" means "complete", "perfect", "fully skilled". In other words, "consummate". This gives us a translation of "consummate analysis" for "patisambhida" and distinguishes it from ordinary analysis such as "pabheda". Larry 25931 From: june_tg Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 8:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] buddhist publication society Dear Jon. Thanks. Everything's okay now. It seems they dont like to reply by email but their service is quite fast otherwise. I waited 2 weeks for an email reply when they've already sent out the stuff. I just received my order yesterday. Whew. I guess that's what happens when your imagination gets carried away. Thanks for your reply. June 25932 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Meal: To Nina and Sarah Hi James, We look here at the sutta, but it is in Pali. It has grammar, and there are grammatical rules. The best way to get the real meaning is to be very careful and very precise. That is why I find Suan's analysis excellent. There is nothing in the sutta about undercooked meat, or the meat being poisonous. Nina. op 08-10-2003 18:57 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" > wrote: > >> >> "It was heard by me that >> the Buddha experienced fatally severe sickness, >> 25933 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 10:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Meal: To Nina and Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > We look here at the sutta, but it is in Pali. It has grammar, and there are > grammatical rules. The best way to get the real meaning is to be very > careful and very precise. That is why I find Suan's analysis excellent. > There is nothing in the sutta about undercooked meat, or the meat being > poisonous. > Nina. Hi Nina, First, how can you find Suan's analysis excellent when you, as well as I, have no idea what he is talking about with this grammatical rule of `verbs showing disrespect'? I read your other post where you ask him to explain that for you (Post: 25923) so you obviously don't understand. Now, you don't even completely understand what he is saying and yet you are already convinced that it is `excellent'? That is not being very intellectually rigorous in my eyes; as well as demonstrating a bias toward Pali in any form. Second, you write, "There is nothing in the sutta about undercooked meat, or the meat being poisonous." Okay, there is also nothing in the sutta about the meat being infused with nutrients from devas and yet you are propagating that we all should believe that. I believe my explanation is much more logically sound than yours. Metta, James 25934 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 8, 2003 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma with distracted mind Hi Steve, Thank you very much for coming to the rescue here. I think it must be right as I had no idea of the Pali for the passage in the translation and it's close to that quoted (with obvious errors). PED: bhijjati [pass ob bhindati] to be broken, to be destroyed. Much appreciated, Metta, Sarah p.s Glad you enjoyed the Cooran weekend - I'm sure everyone is very glad to have your contributions as we are here;-) ============================================= --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi All > > The closest passage i could find in the Kathavatthu Atthakatha to>> > "Yada cittam blajjamanam hoti tada kammaam bhajjamanam hotiti attho." > is > "Citta.m bhijjamaananti yadaa citta.m bhijjamaana.m hoti, tadaa > kamma.m bhijjatiiti attho." > > Its from the com. to this Kathavatthu XV,XI passage as Sarah pointed > out. 25935 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "I'm wondering whether you agree that there are moments of > samatha > occurring in your daily life, such as the examples I have instanced > earlier." > > Hi Jon, > > Yes. As I said before, I think this is important to recognise. First, it shows that samatha does not depend on 'being concentrated', and secondly it means there is a basis in one's daily life as it already is for samatha to be further developed. Any problem with this? Jon 25936 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 0:09am Subject: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Lunch: With Typo Corrections :To Nina and Sarah Dear Dhamma friends My post "The Verse On The Last Meal" has some spelling mistakes. So I reposted the post with spelling corrections. Sorry about any inconvenience! Suan -------- Dear Nina, Sarah, Christine, Mike Niece, Robert K, Derek and all, How are you? Nina asked: "I would like to know what the Saddaniti has to say, ....?" The following is my quick translation of the verse on the Buddha's last meal. "Cundassa bhattam bhuñjitvaa, kammaarassaati me sutam; aabaadham samphusii dhiiro, pabaa.lham maara.nantikam. Bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena, byaadhippabaa.lho udapaadi satthuno; virecamaano bhagavaa avoca, gacchaamaham kusinaaram nagaranti. "It was heard by me that the Buddha experienced fatally severe sickness, After eating Cunda's food, of the son of goldsmith. And when having eaten his lunch with tender pork cuisine, Severe disorder occurred to the Teacher of the Universe. The Mighty One, losing diarrhoeaic blood, said, "Let's go to the City of Kusinaara". Section 190, Mahaaparinibbana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo GRAMMAR RULES for the expression " Bhuttassa ca suukaramaddavena" Bhuttassa- Cha.t.thii vibhatti meaning genitive case. The equally correct syntax in place of "bhuttassa" is "bhutte" - Sattamii vibhatti meaning locative case. Both genitive case and locative case are used to express the sense of the action of one verb while or when the action of another verb is taking place or has taken place as in the above verse. Please see the following rules in Saddaniiti Suttamaalaa. Suttam 633: Anaadaramhi ca. Anaadaramhi ca gamyamaane bhaavavataa li`ngamhaa cha.t.thiivibhatti hoti sattamii ca. Aphorism 633: And, in the case of the verb showing disrespect. "When the case of the verb showing disrespect is to be known, the sixth case comes after the bare noun having the verb that gets disrespected or the seventh case does similarly." One of the examples given is from Section 2169, Vessantara Jaataka, Jaataka Pali, Volume 2. "Aako.tayanto te neti Siviraajassa pekkhato" "While the Sivi King (Vessantaro) watching, the Brahmin beating the two children lead them away." In the above example, the verb to lead is the verb showing disrespect while the verb to watch is the verb getting disrespect. We can reconstruct the expression "Siviraajassa pekkhato" as "Siviraajassa pekkhassa". When we get the term "pekkhassa", that can easily remind us of the expression "bhuttassa". Finally we get the expression "Buddhassa bhuttassa". In the verse on the Buddha's last meal, the verb to eat is the verb getting disrespect while the verb to occur is the verb to show disrespect. Thus, we finally get the following alternative translation. "Despite having lunch with tender pork cuisine, Severe disorder occurred to the Teacher of the Universe." This alternative translation is exactly and literally in line with the Pali grammar rule. In my opinion, the commentator commented on that phrase in light of the Pali grammar rule. In short, the tender pork cuisine was the food that kept the Buddha going, rather than something that ruined him. When we reconstruct the expression "Buddhassa bhuttassa" as the expression "Buddhe bhutte" using the seventh case, we get a neutral general while/when syntax under the rule 644: Kaalebhaavesu ca. We can use the same translations as above for examples. When we know how the writer of the verse had carefully chosen the right syntax to convey the correct sense of the event, we do not find the lines of the verse to be ambiguous. We get the lines of the verse right. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > I would like to know what the Saddaniti has to say, > perhaps we shift to Pali list? 25937 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, I had meant to respond a little to your earlier message to me and Nina: --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Sarah, though I do not have the accumulations to book study, I think > that it is very useful and I hope that the regular reading of posts on > dsg, > will condition some effort in the future, to take a more serious > approach > to the Texts. Of course at this stage, the best thing for me is > listening to > K. Sujin. She makes everything so clear, using daily life as example to > express what I would otherwise not be able to directly understand if I > were to read the original texts alone. But even this I do relatively > little, > especially when I compare to many people in Thailand, who make the > effort to get up very early to listen to her radio programs. .... Oh, no need to compare again;-) Sukin, I agree with all your comments here and elsewhere. I think you do consider very deeply and it is the considering, reflecting and understanding that counts. No need to count how many texts one has read (or not read) or how many radio programs one has listened to;-) .... > I think there are many, many conditions involved in deciding how at any > given moment there will be any understanding, be it of the intellectual > or practice level. This is one reason why I think, that any real > appreciation of the Buddha's teachings *must* be a natural and daily > life, without any thought of time, place and idea of formal practice > coming in the way to distort the perception. .... Yes, agreed of course (but then, James would say we’re in the same brain-washed club here;-)). We can plan to read a text or follow any other activity, but conditions may dictate otherwise, like when I sprained my leg at the weekend. .... > Only wrong thinking and wrong view I believe will lead one to the idea > that there are certain modes of behavior more conducive to > understanding. Only *thinking* can get in the way of understanding the > present moment. And the beauty about the Buddha's teachings is that > even this 'thinking' is conditioned and can be known!! When, where, > how are just concepts, behind which is the process of 'thinking'. Better > to know this than to be taken by the ideas themselves. > However, not all thinking is useless. There are some wholesome > reflections and not all thinking point to 'wrong practice'. Some are > kusala, as in metta, dana, karuna etc. The kind of thinking which I find > particularly harmful, is one that leads one to believe in the idea of > better, time, place and even mental make up for the development of > panna. What many may not realize is that all this instead of leading to > more detachment and appreciation of Anatta, may lead to a greater > attachment to self and wrong view. ..... You’re making a lot of good points, Sukin. They all point to knowing the present reality. Nothing else to be known. Hope you can keep talking to Victor and others while some of us are travelling next week (for about 2 wks) - I mean we wouldn’t want him to fall asleep or start questioning whether there are any ‘real people’ around;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25938 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 0:53am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 22-23 for comment What does exist? Slide Contents ============== Ultimate Realities (Paramattha): - Consciousness (Citta) - Mental Factors (Cetasikas) - Physical Phenomena (Rupa) - Nibbana Concept of Self - Matter (Rupa) -> Rupa - Feeling (Vedana) -> Cetasika - Perception (Sañña) -> Cetasika - Mental Formations (Sankhara) -> 50 Cetasikas - Consciousness (Viññana) -> Citta Matter, Feeling, Perception, Mental Formations and Consciousness are the 5 Aggregates Speaker Notes ============= If "people" do not exist, what does exist? What are the component parts? According to the Abhidhamma, there are four types of things that exist: - Consciousness (Citta in Pali) - Mental Factors (Cetasikas in Pali) - Physical Phenomena (Rupa in Pali) - Nibbana The first three of these ultimate realities are called "conditioned realities"; this means that they arise because of other conditions and only last for an instant before falling away. In the Suttas, the Buddha often spoke of a being consisting of the "five aggregates" (pañca-khandha in Pali). This chart shows how the five aggregates fit into the first three types of ultimate realities. 25939 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga. Tiika 17 Dear Nina (& Larry), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah and Larry, > just an evaluation of the transl of Tiika. For this subject I see that > many > passages are overlapping with Dispeller of Delusion (Co to Vibhanga, > Book of > Analysis) II, p. 126, ff. I can type from this work relevant passages, > because not everyone has it. When I see an interesting extra detail in > the > Tiika (I am reading it), I can translate it. But I am not sure whether > many > are interested in the Tiika. It is quite a lot of work to translate it. .... I think as James wrote in another message, a lot of what we read in the Tiika and details seems incomprehensible and so it’s easy to skim over it, put it aside or just delete. For myself (& Jon), however, we find it invaluable. Perhaps now, much of it is over our heads or we may just consider a little intellecutually, but we never know when it may be a condition for deeper reflection or when a ‘Larry’ may come along with a probing question which helps us to consider more carefully. To give an example. I had read and not understood before about ‘skill in improvement, detriment, and means’ (Vism,X1V,8). I had read before about ‘detriment’ as the ‘diminution of good and the arousing of harm’, but until you added the Tiika lines about the various kinds of kosalla (skill), I had never really considered the importance of understanding the ‘skill in detriment’ in daily life. To quote from the Tiika (yr translation, leaving out the Pali): “As to the words, skill in these, mean: skill in detriment concerning the characteristic of the diminution of benefit and the arousing of harm, that what is profitable, skill in detriment. ‘These dhammas etc.’ is said, in order to show that this is also according to the text. Herein this is called, means: understanding concerning the non-arising and cessation of profitable dhammas and the arising and maintenance of unprofitable dhammas,this is called skill in detriment.” **** We may think that all we need to understand is the development of wholesome states and that anytime we’re ‘taking a break’ there is no cause for concern. However, I think it’s very helpful to understand how ‘detrimental’ states develop whenever wholesome states are not developing. As we read before in Rahula’s case, even he, without the Buddha’s assistance, was destined to develop more ‘detriment’. A little more: “He thinks thus: Proficiency concerning the arousing of detriment may be called skill in detriment, and therefore it is just the understanding of it. Why? It is truly understanding when one knows: ‘When I pay attention in this way knowing that unarisen profitable dhammas do not arise, and that arisen profitable dhammas dwindle away, and that unarisen unprofitable dhammas arise, and arisen unprofitable dhammas increase. When he understands this, unarisen unprofitable dhammas do not arise, and those which have arisen cease,” ***** In other words, if there isn’t the understanding of the way ‘unprofitable dhammas’ accumulate in daily life, there is no way that they will diminish. “Thus also skill in detriment is truly understanding.” .... I’m sure for other people, different passages may have more significance. Some may not have significance for any of us for a good long while, but they can always be referred back to. (Btw, I was writing to B.Bodhi about the Chinese version of CMA, but mentioned we were discussing this Tiika and asked at the same time if he knew of any other English transl of it. I also took the opportunity to encourage him to add as many commentary notes to the AN translation as possible and mentioned again how often we quote his other comy translations in our discussions). ***** > Sarah, when you go to Myanmar, I wonder whether you or Jonothan have > time to > ask a Pali expert about nirutti, discr. of language. .... I’ll try to raise it . If you could write a paragraph (as you did last time) with the points, it’s easier to read it out as ‘Nina’s qu’ and then supplement with other related qus perhaps. My appreciation to you and Larry for all your assistance on the Vism threads. Metta, Sarah ===== 25940 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.EngPali.XIV, 16, 17, 18 Hi Jon, Larry, (Victor, Howard), --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV > > [How many kinds of understanding are there?] > [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] > > 16. 9. In the third triad, it is increase that is called > "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the > arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according > as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man > brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not > arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he > brings these things to mind [440] both unarisen profitable things > arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase, > development, and perfection in him. .... We read about how ‘a man brings these things to mind’, but clearly such terms are being used conventionally. The text continues to clarify that it is pa~n~naa and associated states being referred to as developing such skill: >Whatever here is understanding, > act of understanding ... [for words elided see Dhs. 16] ... > non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in > improvement' (Vbh. 325-26). > >yaa tattha pa~n~naa pajaananaa ... pe0 > ... amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi, ida.m vuccati aayakosalla''nti > (vibha0 771). ***** Larry, in the other extract (X1V, 19) which refers to ‘apprehending one’s own aggregates’ and ‘that initiated by apprehending another’s aggregates or external materiality’, in truth of course, there is no ‘me’ and ‘other’. But, as we’re not enlightened it seems this way and so we use these terms. Always, what is ‘apprehended’ are the namas and rupas appearing. These may be on account of ‘another’s aggregates’ or ‘external materiality’as I understand these passages. For example, we see someone upset and think about it and have compassion accordingly. We can never experience the other’s cittas, but there can be understanding of the thinking and compassion (we) experienced, conditioned by what is seen and heard. There can also be understanding of ‘the seen’ and ‘heard’;-) Likewise with ‘internal’ and ‘external’ materiality. Hardness experienced by touch is simply hardness whether it is the hardness of one’s body or the rock. We can refer to it as ‘internal’ or ‘external’ materiality [inanimate matter] touched conventionally and it makes sense (to me) to talk about it being ‘initiated by apprehending’ ‘the internal and external’. Not an easy topic and I expect to hear from Howard;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25941 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Verse On The Buddha's Last Lunch: With Typo Corrections :To Nina and Sarah Hi Suan, Very useful and interesting. I appreciate the details and your contribution very much. I'd also like to thank the tough questions which encouraged this detailed analysis, but will just give a general 'pat on the head' for now;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25942 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > LOL! No, this explanation doesn't sound like a brainwashed > explanation (when you start to get into that no-control, meditation > is dangerous/unnecessary kick that you sound brainwashed), .... LOL ...that’s coming next;-) .... > this just > sounds like a simple case of selective attention. Granting that the > one line in Pali is ambiguous (which I will have to take Derek's word > for that) the other details of the incident combined with that one > ambiguous line makes the whole incident far from ambiguous. That is > just common sense. The commentaries come up with this fantastic > story that isn't suggested by the text at all, that isn't ambiguous > either. ...... I can live with the 'selective attention' theory;-). Do you have any theory as to why the commentaries, originally recounted by arahants and carefully preserved by more arahants like Mahinda who brought them to Sri Lanka, later to be compiled by highly esteemed bhikkhus like Buddhaghosa, and then preserved for us to read today, should, according to you, defy common sense and make up a ‘fantastic story’ like this which even the highly esteemed Pali grammarians throughout the centuries have ‘fallen for’? ..... >I guess each person needs to decide for him/herself which > answer is the most plausible. I believe it is more plausible that > the Buddha got sick from that meal and died; those are definitely > what the facts point to. .... No problem. I’m sure anyone who prefers to ignore the commentaries will come to the same conclusion. No sweat. .... >Since you refer to old English riddles, I > will refer to an old English philosopher: William of Occam, the > medieval philosopher, set forth the logical principal of `Occam's > Razor,' which states that one should not make more assumptions than > the minimum needed. .... Ah yes, but then, but then.....what about the ‘Dhamma Congress’, the ‘Pali Congress’, the ‘Abhidhamma Congress’ and the future of DSG???;-) Just kidding, James. If only life were so simple.....;-) Believe me, I understand the appeal of just keeping a couple of collections of suttas (throwing out those given by disciples such as Sariputta), discarding the Vinaya (not that you’d do this), Abhidhamma and Commentaries (you might do this) and accepting the first sutta translation one comes across (today that seems to be Thanissaro’s) at face value. Let’s see if I can go and add ‘more assumptions’ and complicate a few other threads;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Jon and I had a good laugh at your ‘tender pork’ post which followed Suan’s. Note: this is NOT a pat on the head - nor have I given any advice;-) ===== 25943 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Ken H, (Larry, RobM & All), --- kenhowardau wrote: > > Thank you for correcting me on the cause of rupa. It's > easier for me to wax eloquent on these subjects if I know > someone will come along later and repair the damage. :-) .... That’s a deal (though no guarantees I’ll get it right either :-)) .... > Now that you mention it, I have seen that explained > before. I gather we can say that vipaka citta is > conditioned by kamma; If it is conditioned by kusala > kamma then it experiences a pleasant object -- akusala > kamma, an unpleasant object. External sense objects > (rupas), are conditioned by temperature; internal objects > by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. .... Right .... > That leaves only the cause of inherent pleasantness / > unpleasantness to be explained. Is that what you are > attributing to 'an intricate set of conditions?' > > Not as tidy as my version but more satisfactory :-) ... As I was just saying to James, I’m here to cause trouble :-) Any reality arising is always due to ‘an intricate set of conditions’. For example, we say that seeing consciousness is the result of kamma. This means that kamma is the main condition and without it, there could be no vipaka. But there have to be many other support conditions for that vipaka citta to arise - eg object condition (the visible object), proximity cond., conascence, mutuality, depenence, presence, decisive support and so on and so on. (Kom, keep an eye on what I write too...) As for the inherent pleasantness/unpleasantness, as you explained to Howard, this is inherent to the rupa. We discussed before how it’s impossible for us to know at any time whether we are seeing a pleasant or unpleasant visible object. Various examples were given of how we may be fooled in this regard. (let me know if you’d like me to find the other posts). “Saataruupa.m (‘agreeable’) is what is classed as agreeable. [this signifies] a desirable object as proximate cause of enjoyment” (Dispeller,16, 2286). .... > You are referring to the Balinese bathroom I thoughtfully > incorporated into the family home. Why are women so > unappreciative? .... ;-) Sometimes you sound just like Jon - must be that lawyer’s training, (and Larry, when did a Law Draftsman trained in Dickensian Legal Tomes ever get to the point in a hurry??) Metta, Sarah ====== P.S. Btw, I agree with all your comments about the lack of any sure-fire safe situations of kusala. Jon has an unusual blood group type and as a result tends to get called quite often by the Red Cross to make an offering. Sometimes, it’s too soon after the last one and there’s no spare blood to be found. I have no idea about any of his cittas at any of these times and have never been present. I do know, however, that he gets a nice rest, avoids a meeting or two and possibly gets a pat on the back when he returns to the office;-) And of course, the highest kusala, is a moment of satipatthana which, as we all know, is just as likely on a surfboard as at the transfusion centre. I don’t mean to sound cynical or not to encourage all kinds of kusala, including blood donations, but I wouldn’t want James to think that I was going soft;-) 25944 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi Sarah, Just a few comments: Sarah: I can live with the 'selective attention' theory;-). Do you have any theory as to why the commentaries, originally recounted by arahants and carefully preserved by more arahants like Mahinda who brought them to Sri Lanka, later to be compiled by highly esteemed bhikkhus like Buddhaghosa, and then preserved for us to read today, should, according to you, defy common sense and make up a `fantastic story' like this which even the highly esteemed Pali grammarians throughout the centuries have `fallen for'? James: Now admit it, you wrote this to sound extremely persuasive. I do not believe that the original commentaries, the ones recounted by arahants, are the ones that we have today. As I have written and explained before, I believe that Buddhaghosa took great liberties with the commentaries and added a lot of material from his own pen. The fact that the commentaries have numerous references to Abhidhamma terms and concepts, when those weren't even in existence when the original commentaries were recounted, points to this fact. Of course we have also gone round and round about this before…so no need to do that again. I believe you also have `selective attention' when it comes to historical fact. Sarah: Just kidding, James. If only life were so simple.....;-) Believe me, I understand the appeal of just keeping a couple of collections of suttas (throwing out those given by disciples such as Sariputta), discarding the Vinaya (not that you'd do this), Abhidhamma and Commentaries (you might do this) and accepting the first sutta translation one comes across (today that seems to be Thanissaro's) at face value. James: I have never advocated `throwing out' anything, even the Abhidhamma; I have just stated that they must be seen in the proper light. There are those things that are completely in line with the Buddha's teaching (and that includes the Vinaya), and there are those things that are rather askew. Keep everything but know which is which. You believe that it is all in line with the Buddha's teaching; which I find a little naïve to think that everything would remain pure and original for over three thousand years. Surely you know that nothing lasts?\ Sarah: p.s Jon and I had a good laugh at your `tender pork' post which followed Suan's. Note: this is NOT a pat on the head - nor have I given any advice;-) James: Why would you two laugh? I find it quite disturbing to consider how the Buddha died. I feel sympathy and awe for him…but definitely no humor at his situation. If you haven't noticed by now, I take this whole issue very seriously. I want it understood what a great sacrifice he made and I don't want his sacrifice trivialized or presented incorrectly. Metta, James 25945 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I believe personality-view or belief, or however we want to phrase it > comes > in three basic "strengths." > 1) The most subtle is associated with the sense of "mine." > 2) The next level is the idea/sense of "I." > 3) The last (most gross) is the belief/view of a "self" or "myself." ... I think you’re referring here to : 1) eta.m mama- this is mine (craving or attachment to me) 2) esoham asmi - this am I (conceit) 3) eso me attaa - this is myself (wrong view of self). We’re encouraged to see with right wisdom that ‘this is not mine, I am not this, this is not me’ as in the Rahulavada sutta. In other words, these are the three kinds cinging with regard to self, the first one not being accompanied by conceit or wrong view. However, I don’t think we can talk about these as 3 strengths of a view or belief. Although they are all rooted in lobha (attachment), they are different mental factors with their own strenghts and subleties. For example, there can be gross and subtle clinging to self, gross and subtle conceit and gross and subtle wrong view of self. .... > I believe the streamwinner has only eradicated the last of these levels. > The > streamwinner still has the idea or sense of "I" and "mine" which is why > attachment, conceit, ignorance, restlessness, and desire for future > "being" still > persists. Other than the more gross belief/view/theory of self, they > still see > things with 'self-view' (as I understand it.) .... Agreed. Now, I understand your meaning better I think, although we use ‘self-view’ in a different way (You are referring to conceit and I’m referring to sakkaya-ditthi by it). Back to ‘strengths’, just as we cannot say that jealousy is necessarily stronger than aversion, because the first is eradicated entirely by the sotapanna, in the same way I don’t think we can say that wrong view is stronger than conceit. Gross and subtle shades of each., although I agree on the importance of understanding wrong views and the fact that these have to be eradicated before other more subtle kinds of attachment. ..... > Appreciate your response as well. :) ..... Pls let me know if this sounds right. Also pls give Ray a prompt if you speak to him;-) Perhaps he can also help. Metta, Sarah Nina, thx for your comment and reminder. Also, if you’d like to give me a qu to raise on this point, I’ll happily do so if I can. ==================== 25946 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi James, James: I have never advocated `throwing out' anything, even the Abhidhamma; I have just stated that they must be seen in the proper light. .... S: thank you for clarifying and I’m glad to hear it. Apologies for suggesting otherwise. .... James: Why would you two laugh? .... S: Put it down to worldling defilements ....intended in friendliness nonetheless;-),(but, maybe that’s an oxymoron;-(). ..... James:I find it quite disturbing to consider how the Buddha died. I feel sympathy and awe for him…but definitely no humor at his situation. If you haven't noticed by now, I take this whole issue very seriously. I want it understood what a great sacrifice he made and I don't want his sacrifice trivialized or presented incorrectly. .... S:I appreciate this and again apologise for any possible offence regading my careless words or humour. It’s been a great issue to raise as its highlighted the question of the extent to which we take note of the commentaries. As you say, everyone can decide for themselves. In appreciation, Metta, Sarah ======= 25947 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 4:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Sarah, When we last met in HK, you asked me if there were any points in the Dhamma / Abhidhamma that I was still wrestling with. I forgot to mention at that time that I am still very uncomfortable with the "inherent pleasantness / unpleasantness" aspects of rupa. Can you try and explain to me how rupa can have these "inherent" characteristics? I have a hard time accepting the explanation on P172 of CMA, "It is distinguishable according to what is found desireable at one time and undesireable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants". --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > That leaves only the cause of inherent pleasantness / > > unpleasantness to be explained. Is that what you are > > attributing to 'an intricate set of conditions?' Metta, Rob M :-) 25948 From: javisens Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 5:39am Subject: Kamma and Clonning, Antibiotic and Kamma Can someone explain how clonning of an animal will explain in terms of kamma? As I understand clonning is done from another animal and new life is formed. In that case where is that new life has the same kamma as its benefactor or not? Is taking antibiotic, is killing a life? Please explain how it can be not. Hope my questions are clear enough to get some clear answers on these two questions javisens 25949 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 6:54am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? Almost never. Why "yes" in one sentence in Asl? Nyanatiloka's Dictionary has: NAMA: (lit. 'name'): 'mind', mentality. This term is generally used as a collective name for the 4 mental groups (arupino khandha), viz. feeling (vedana), perception (sañña), mental formations (sankhara), and consciousness (viññana). Within the 4th link (namarupa) in the formula of the paticcasamuppada, however, it applies only to karma- resultant (vipaka), feeling, and perception and a few karma-resultant mental functions inseperable from any consciousness. As it is said (M. 9; D. 15; S XXII, 2): "Feeling (vedana), perception (sañña), volition (cetana), impression (phassa), mental advertence (manasikara)): this, O brother, is called mind (mana)." The four mental aggregates (citta and cetasika) are nama, impermanent, conditioned, not nibbana. Nibbana is supramundane, i.e., beyond the entire field of mind and matter (nama, rupa, and nama- rupa). I do see that there is one sentence in Atthasalini that seems to put Nibbana in with nama, but the discussion really goes through a bizarre wriggling and twisting dance to force nibbana under the same umbrella as the 'nama'. The same word that is several times defined as vedana, sañña, cetana, phassa, + manasikara in the suttas, as citta and cetasika or as citta in abhidhamma, or classed as a link in the citta-to-citta, moment-to-moment version of paticcasamuppada in the Vibhana (avijja->sankharo->viññana->nama->chatth'-ayatana->etc.), or the thing that changes so quickly. I don't see the benefit of trying to force nibbana into the same category as nama when it really has nothing in common with anything else that we'd call 'nama'. Dan 25950 From: Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 3:27am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, all - Here's an attempt at defining 'nama' : Nama is anything that can be an object of consciousness, but never through any of the five senses-doors. This is a definition that is an *alternative* to defining a nama as a phenomenon that *takes* objects. This alternative definition would make all thoughts, concepts, feelings, memories, recognitions, and absences (including nibbana) namas. To give a macroscopic example: When we notice that a particular someone is missing at a gathering, that absence is known through the mind door, not through the eye door. It is the result of a long chain of phenomena, some through various physical sense doors and some through the mind door, but the absence itself, while discerned, is not discerned through eye, ear, nose, tongue, or body. That makes it a nama according to this definition. We *do*, of course, note absences all the time, and that is always done through the mind door. Another example: The absence of thirst when one's thirst is slaked, or the absence of frustration when a DSG member sees the light, i.e. agrees with us! ;-)) With well-defined metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25951 From: Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.EngPali.XIV, 16, 17, 18 Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/9/03 4:27:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Likewise with ‘internal’ and ‘external’ materiality. Hardness experienced > by touch is simply hardness whether it is the hardness of one’s body or > the rock. We can refer to it as ‘internal’ or ‘external’ materiality > [inanimate matter] touched conventionally and it makes sense (to me) to > talk about it being ‘initiated by apprehending’ ‘the internal and > external’. Not an easy topic and I expect to hear from Howard;-) > ============================ I agree with you here. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25952 From: Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - In a message dated 10/9/03 7:37:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Sarah, > > When we last met in HK, you asked me if there were any points in the > Dhamma / Abhidhamma that I was still wrestling with. I forgot to > mention at that time that I am still very uncomfortable with > the "inherent pleasantness / unpleasantness" aspects of rupa. Can > you try and explain to me how rupa can have these "inherent" > characteristics? I have a hard time accepting the explanation on > P172 of CMA, "It is distinguishable according to what is found > desireable at one time and undesireable at another time by average > (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land > owners and merchants". > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > >That leaves only the cause of inherent pleasantness / > >>unpleasantness to be explained. Is that what you are > >>attributing to 'an intricate set of conditions?' > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================= Rob, I also didn't get this idea of feeling being inherent in rupas until I had a certain conversation with Ken Howard. I realized at that time that I had been thinking in substantialist/eternalist terms when it seemed to me that sometimes a particular rupa is felt as pleasant and at other times "it" is felt as unpleasant. My error was to think of this as *the same* rupa! It is *not* the same rupa. The previous pleasant rupa (say a hardness-rupa) was pleasant. It is now gone, but a current unpleasant rupa (another hardness-rupa), has now arisen. My error lay in identifying different hardnesses as the same, almost countenancing a kind of Platonic 'hardness'. Current conditions, especially intention, lead to the arising of rupas that are pleasant; other conditions lead to rupas that are unpleasant or neutral. A pleasant rupa is one which is discerned as pleasant, an unpleasant rupa is one which is discerned as unpleasant, and a neutral rupa is one which is discerned as affectively neutral. Often, our particular mental state determines what sort of rupa arises. It is not that "the same" rupa arises, now felt as pleasant, now as unpleasant, and now as neutral - they are different rupas. A crunchy texture in the mouth that is pleasant is not the same rupa as a crunchy texture in the mouth that is unpleasant. The first pleasant rupa could be conditioned by the belief that it is a nut in one's mouth, and the second unpleasant rupa could be conditioned by the belief that it is an insect in one's mouth! What distinguishes the two rupas? Answer: Time of occurrence and affective flavor. Different rupas arising from different conditions. The understanding must be phenomenalist rather than "objectivist". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25953 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 8:51am Subject: The Verse On The Buddha's Last Lunch: Anaadara? To Nina and Sarah Dear Nina, Sarah and all How are you? Nina asked: "You use the expression disrespect, a verb showing disrespect, and this I do not understand yet. Could you please give a further explanation?" Anaadara (a verb showing disrespect or no concern) is one of unique or peculiar technical terms of the traditional Pali grammar texts. It is best that we should focuss on what this peculiar term refers to syntactically and how we can use or interpret its syntactical form. The syntactical form of "anaadara / disrespect" is, as we have seen, cha.t.thii vibhatti / the genitive case. When the genitive case takes on the sense of "grammartical disrespect", so to speak, then we don't translate the genetive form in terms of usual possessiveness (noun's / of noun). Rather, we would translate the genetive form with the sense of "grammartical disrespect" in terms of "while/when/despite/even though/regardless of" subordinate clauses or phrases. Examples 1. Suram pivanassa pahaatabbassa, so pivati tam. While drinking of alcohol should be avoided, he drinks it anyway. 2. Tassa passantassevaati anaadare saamivacanam, tasmim passanteyevaati attho. Page 1.124 Saaratthadiipanii Tiikaa (Vinaya Subcommentary) "The expression "Tassa passantasseva" is the possessive case in the sense of grammartical disrespect, and means "Verily while he is watching". With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, Most interesting. I am delighted you gave us the Saddaniti. You use the expression disrespect, a verb showing disrespect, and this I do not understand yet. Could you please give a further explanation? With many thanks, Nina. 25954 From: Derek Cameron Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi, > It's been a great issue to raise as its > highlighted the question of the extent to which we take note of the > commentaries. As you say, everyone can decide for themselves. It looks to me like what we're seeing here is evidence of a two- thousand-year old controversy. My hypothesis is that the Buddhist orthodoxy of the time held that giving food to monks was a virtuous act. Now, someone who wanted to argue with this would counter, "If giving food to monks is a virtuous act, then how come Cunda's alms-giving caused the death of the Buddha?" The only way to maintain the orthodoxy would be to claim that Cunda's alms-giving *didn't* cause the death of the Buddha. Hence the commentators and the author of the Milindapanha taking pains to argue this point, and so maintain the consistency of the Buddhist worldview. Derek. 25955 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 9:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, > At birth. Some might say before then. I am not sure if you understood my question, maybe you do, just that I don't understand your response...? My question was in response to your statement, "Put 5 khandhas together and you get a person." And I see khandhas as arising and falling on a momentary basis, at time of birth, before, and after. And no two moments are ever the same, in terms of conditioning factors and in terms of itself being a condition for other dhammas. Are you saying that the rise and fall of khandhas is equivalent to a person rising and falling? Metta, Sukin 25956 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Dhamma Issue 13, no 2. Devas reborn with an ahetuka kusala vip åkacitta. Devas reborn with an ahetuka kusala vipåkacitta. (coninued). Summarizing, the six classes of devas of the sensuous plane, they are, except for the ³earth-bound devas², born with rebirth-consciousness accompanied by two roots or three roots, not with an ahetuka citta. As to the earth-bound devas (the lowest class of the four Great Kings), such as the yakkhinís and the spirits with a glorious mansion (vemånika petas), they are born with a rebirth-consciousness that is without roots, with two roots or with three roots, just as in the case of human beings. Thus, the kusala vipåka santírana-citta accompanied by upekkhå can perform the function of rebirth only in the case of human beings and in the case of earth-bound devas. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² (XIV, 111) : ³When through the influence of the eight kinds of sense-sphere profitable [consciousness] [6], beings come to be reborn among deities and human beings, then the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant with root-cause occur, and also the resultant mind-consciousness element without root-cause associated with equanimity, which is the result of weak kusala [kamma]with two root-causes, in those who are entering upon the state of eunuchs, etc. , among human beings- thus nine kinds of resultant consciousness in all occur as rebirth-linking; and they do so making their object whichever among the kamma, sign of kamma, or sign of destiny, has appeared at the time of dying [7].² This text explains about rebirth with santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka and accompanied by indifferent feeling only in the case of humans who are deformed or handicapped from birth. It does not indicate with regard to the deva planes whether or not the rebirth with this type of citta is the condition for being deformed or handicapped from birth. 4. In the ³Abhidhammattha Sangaha², a ³Manual of Abhidhamma², Ch 5, in the section on four classes of rebirth, there is the following explanation: ³However, wholesome resultant investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity occurs as relinking, existence-continuum [bhavanga-citta] and decease [consciousness] of deformed human beings, such as those born blind, etc., and of the earth-bound, fallen demons [8]. Thus, this text explains that the wholesome resultant investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity can perform the function of rebirth in the case of human beings and of devas of the lowest class which includes the ³earth-bound devas². In the case of human beings it conditions them to be handicapped, foolish, mad, blind and deaf from birth and so on. But with regard to the devas of the lowest class, it is not said whether they are handicapped from birth or whether they are not. It can be concluded that the available sources, the commentaries and other texts, explain only with regard to the human plane that rebirth with the wholesome resultant investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity is the condition for being handicapped from birth, that is: foolish, mad, blind, deaf or deformed, such as being a hermaphrodite or eunuch. This has not been explained with regard to the deva planes. It has not been said that devas are foolish, mad, blind, deaf and so on. Some teachers conclude that devas born with the wholesome resultant investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity are not handicapped from birth. ***** Footnotes: 6. There are eight mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere: four are accompanied by wisdom, four are without wisdom; four are associated with happy feeling and four with neutral feeling; four are not prompted (asankhårika) and four are prompted. (sasankhårika). The rebirth-consciousness which is santírana-citta that is ahetuka kusala vipåka is the result of weak kusala kamma motivated by mahå-kusala citta without wisdom. 7. The last javana-cittas just before the dying-consciousness experience an object through one of the six doors. This object may be a deed one has performed, a symbol of it, or it can be a symbol or sign of one¹s next rebirth. 8. I used the ³Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma² and its Commentary, translated by Wijeratne and Gethin. The Commentary to this passage states: ²Those born blind, etc. : Œetc¹ here includes those born deaf, born dumb, born idiot, born mad, eunuchs, hermaphrodites and the non-sexed, etc. Others, however, say that there are some whose relinking is without motivations [roots, hetus] who have all their faculties but are by nature slow in understanding, and that the word Œetc.¹ also includes these. The earth-bound (bhummassita) are those who are tied to (sita), dependent on (nisita), a god belonging to the earth, since that is their destiny (gati); having fallen from happy multitude, they are the fallen.² ****** (translated from Thai) Nina. 25957 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Dear Jon and Larry, following with interest your dialogue. I would like to add something. op 08-10-2003 22:58 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > ...path and fruition cittas, > Path citta (magga citta) is the outcome of the development of insight > (vipassana bhavana) to a very high degree. It is a supramundane > kusala citta. > Fruition citta (phala citta) follows immediately after path citta and > is the result of that immediately preceding magga citta. As a vipaka > citta, it is not said to have the quality of tranquillity (vipaka > cittas are accompanied by the 7 'universal' cetasikas only). N: It depends on the kind of vipaka. Seeing is ahetuka vipaka and only the universals accompany it. There are also sahetuka vipakacittas, sobhana vipakacittas. In the case of sense-sphere cittas, they can be rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta, cuti-citta and tadarammanacitta, retention. They are accompanied by at least nineteen cetasikas, including the pasaddhi cetasikas, tranquillity cetasikas. All rupajhanacittas, arupajhanacittas and lokuttara cittas are sobhanacittas, including the vipakacittas. They are accompanied by three sobhana hetus, and other sobhana cetasikas. Fruition consciousness is sobhana vipakacitta, accompanied by lokuttara panna. Nibbana is the object and thus, it has a high degree of tranquillity: defilements have been eradicated by the previous maggacitta according to the stage of enlightenment that has been attained. Nina. 25958 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 21 Dear Larry, Thank you for this extract. op 09-10-2003 01:19 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Below is the definition of "patisambhida" in the PTS Dict. I was > wondering what "resolving" means in "resolving continuous breaking up". > How do you get "resolving" from "pati"? N: The prefix pa.ti has different meanings, depending on the context: against, opposite, towards. The translations analytical insight or discriminative knowledge will do, so long as we understand what it means, at least intellectually. I do not like dhamma translated as law, better to keep the word dhamma. Attha: benefit, purpose, meaning, this depends on the context. Just looking at the Tiika: bhindati: divide, bheda: division. I compare with the Dispeller of Delusion, and the Tiika is overlapping it, or in order to translate I have to look at different pages of the Dispeller here and there. But it is really difficult to understand: what is actually the real meaning of this text. Seeing your interest I wonder if you still might consider getting Warder Pali grammar (inspite of hesitations) and taking it up little by little. This Warder book gives sutta readings rather soon. You will enjoy it. It is good to read suttas in the original language. Nina. 25959 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 11:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: Are you saying that the rise and fall of khandhas is equivalent to a person rising and falling? KKT: Make attention, a person is too heavy to fall and to rise :-)) KKT 25960 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 1:33pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Clonning, Antibiotic and Kamma Hello Javisens, I think it is essential to have a definition of exactly what a sentient being is within Buddhism. Someone said that sentient beings are those who are capable of experiencing suffering (Dukkha), that if a being seeks to avoid a blow, it is sentient So a kangaroo seeking to get out of the spotlight of a night shooter, is seeking to avoid suffering (pain of being wounded/killed). The snails on the paths at my workplace seeking to (very slowly) avoid the shoes of the passers-by are seeking to avoid suffering (pain of being squashed). The fear they feel is also suffering. This would fit with a Tibetan teachings which says that sentient beings are all beings that have mind, and mind is found in all beings that breathe. I think this would cut out all bacteria, virus, and plants. One wonders about beings in other realms, like petas, devas etc (Do they breathe. can they feel a blow?) In "An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics" Peter Harvey (p151) 'sentience, the ability to experience and to suffer, and the related ability, in this or a future life, to transcend suffering by attaining enlightenment' and 'The flux of consciousness from a previous being is a necessary condition for the arising and development in the womb of a body (rupa) endowed with mental abilities which amount to sentience (nama): feeling, identification, volition, sensory stimulation and attention (S.II.3-4)' You may be interested in an article written on Cloning and Buddhism by RobK http://www.humancloning.150m.com/article8.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "javisens" wrote: > Can someone explain how clonning of an animal will explain in terms > of kamma? As I understand clonning is done from another animal and > new life is formed. In that case where is that new life has the same > kamma as its benefactor or not? > Is taking antibiotic, is killing a life? Please explain how it can > be not. > Hope my questions are clear enough to get some clear answers on > these two questions > javisens 25961 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Nina (and Larry) Thanks very much for this correction to my earlier post, and the comprehensive detail. Larry, there's your answer! Specifically: "All lokuttara cittas are sobhanacittas, including the vipakacittas. They are accompanied by three sobhana hetus, and other sobhana cetasikas. Fruition consciousness is sobhana vipakacitta, accompanied by lokuttara panna. Nibbana is the object and thus, it has a high degree of tranquillity" Jon -- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon and Larry, ... > N: It depends on the kind of vipaka. Seeing is ahetuka vipaka and > only the > universals accompany it. There are also sahetuka vipakacittas, > sobhana > vipakacittas. In the case of sense-sphere cittas, they can be > rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta, cuti-citta and > tadarammanacitta, > retention. They are accompanied by at least nineteen cetasikas, > including the pasaddhi cetasikas, tranquillity cetasikas. All > rupajhanacittas, > arupajhanacittas and lokuttara cittas are sobhanacittas, including > the vipakacittas. They are accompanied by three sobhana hetus, and > other sobhana > cetasikas. Fruition consciousness is sobhana vipakacitta, > accompanied by > lokuttara panna. Nibbana is the object and thus, it has a high > degree of > tranquillity: defilements have been eradicated by the previous > maggacitta > according to the stage of enlightenment that has been attained. > Nina. 25962 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > James: Why would you two laugh? > .... > S: Put it down to worldling defilements ....intended in friendliness > nonetheless;-),(but, maybe that's an oxymoron;-(). Hi Sarah, Well, this is a rather evasive answer. I believe that you said that you two laughed because you wanted to cast derision on the nature of that post. It was a little too factual and plausible for your comfort level. You had nothing to say in response so you said that you two laughed. Metta, James 25963 From: Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "As I said before, I think this is important to recognise. First, it shows that samatha does not depend on 'being concentrated', and secondly it means there is a basis in one's daily life as it already is for samatha to be further developed. Any problem with this?" Hi Jon, No problem at all. Onward--> Larry 25964 From: Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Sukin: "Are you saying that the rise and fall of khandhas is equivalent to a person rising and falling?" Hi Sukin, I would say there is rise and fall of a person and also continuity of a person. I was thinking of the dependent arising formula. At the stage of birth enough khandhas have come together in a particular way to form a person. A person grows old, gets sick, and dies. Then another person continuity arises with the whole baggage of the previous person continuity. The same goes for groups of people but there isn't necessarily a continuity between the dissolution of one group and the arising of another. But this kamma stuff is just conceptual. No one sees it arising from seed to fruition, one life to another. Right? It's all about what you can see arising and falling. You can see a feeling arising, a person arising, a building arising, an argument arising, and a government arising. Larry 25965 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 5:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I believe that you said that > you two laughed because you wanted to cast derision on the nature of > that post. .... I certainly didn't say that and it isn't true. I wouldn't have mentioned it if it hadn't been a 'friendly intended' comment. I don't recall either of us ever casting 'derision' on a post ever, on list or in private (and I don't think this is a case of Selection Attention Disorder either;-)). ..... >It was a little too factual and plausible for your > comfort level. You had nothing to say in response so you said that > you two laughed. .... OK, no more laughs, James;-( Metta, Sarah ====== 25966 From: Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Nina and Jon, Thanks for your answers concerning what kind of cittas have a tranquility cetasika accompanying it. What I really wanted to know is what exactly is tranquility. Is it a kind of mental feeling? If so, I'm surprised it would be included with higher jhana cittas and path and fruition cittas. I would think these cittas would be free of feeling. Also, any ideas on what is the difference between nirodha samapatti and bhavanga cittas? Do bhavanga cittas arise during nirodha samapatti? Larry 25967 From: Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 7:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Rob, I had a thought on the question of the value of objects. This is really an indirect way of determining what is right and wrong insofar as we are determining whether an object is the result of a wholesome or unwholesome root, without actually seeing the root. As such, we could say it is the abhidhamma basis of democratic law. The ultimate authority in determining what is inherently desirable doesn't reside with the king, the general, or the religeous leader. It is the sole right and responsibility of the merchant class, the average man. On another note: regarding what is a specific characteristic, you might ask, is a wife a characteristic? Answer: yes. See Sukin for details. Larry 25968 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 7:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Howard (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/9/03 7:37:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > I am still very uncomfortable with > > the "inherent pleasantness / unpleasantness" aspects of rupa. Can > > you try and explain to me how rupa can have these "inherent" > > characteristics? > Rob, I also didn't get this idea of feeling being inherent in rupas > until I had a certain conversation with Ken Howard. I realized at that time that > I had been thinking in substantialist/eternalist terms when it seemed to me > that sometimes a particular rupa is felt as pleasant and at other times "it" is > felt as unpleasant. My error was to think of this as *the same* rupa! It is > *not* the same rupa. The previous pleasant rupa (say a hardness- rupa) was > pleasant. It is now gone, but a current unpleasant rupa (another hardness-rupa), > has now arisen. My error lay in identifying different hardnesses as the same, > almost countenancing a kind of Platonic 'hardness'. Current conditions, > especially intention, lead to the arising of rupas that are pleasant; other > conditions lead to rupas that are unpleasant or neutral. A pleasant rupa is one which > is discerned as pleasant, an unpleasant rupa is one which is discerned as > unpleasant, and a neutral rupa is one which is discerned as affectively neutral. > Often, our particular mental state determines what sort of rupa arises. It is > not that "the same" rupa arises, now felt as pleasant, now as unpleasant, and > now as neutral - they are different rupas. A crunchy texture in the mouth that > is pleasant is not the same rupa as a crunchy texture in the mouth that is > unpleasant. The first pleasant rupa could be conditioned by the belief that it > is a nut in one's mouth, and the second unpleasant rupa could be conditioned by > the belief that it is an insect in one's mouth! What distinguishes the two > rupas? Answer: Time of occurrence and affective flavor. Different rupas arising > from different conditions. The understanding must be phenomenalist rather than > "objectivist". I'm not sure that I buy this argument. Through object pre-nascence condition (purejata-paccaya), rupa (object for cittas and cetasikas in the citta-process) forms the condition for the cittas and cetasikas arising later. In other words, each rupa in intrinsically "pleasant" or "unpleasant" before it is taken as object of a citta. If we think of the sense-door citta process, the rupa exists for at least three citta durations (past bhavanaga, vibrating bhavanga, arresting bhavanga - all taking past life object) before the adverting citta takes the new rupa as object. It does not make sense to me that the same type of rupa (a millionth of a second later) arising in a subsequent citta-process could have a different intrinsic property. In a footnote in CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi references a section of Sammohavinodani (The Dispeller of Delusion) under Chapter I, "Classification of the Aggregates". I have reproduced paragraphs 39-45 and part of paragraph 46 below: ===== 39. But a disputatious speaker (vitandavadin) said: `there is no intrinsic (patiyekka) agreeable and disagreeable. It is stated according to the likings of these or those, according as it is said: "I will state the limits of the pleasing, Majesty, in respect of the five cords of sense-desire. These same visible data (rupa), Majesty, are pleasing to one and they are unpleasing to another; … these same sounds … odours … flavours … tangible data, Majesty, are pleasing to one and they are unpleasing to another." (S i 80) Thus, because the one enjoys and delights in these visible data and arouses greed for them, while the other is annoyed and vexed by them and arouses hate for them; and for the one they are agreeable, desired and pleasing, and for the other they are disagreeable, undesired and unpleasing; and the one takes them right-handedly and agreeable, desired and pleasing, and the other left-handedly as disagreeable, undesired and unpleasing - therefore there is no distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable. For the border dwellers, worms are agreeable and desired and pleasing, while to the dwellers in the middle country they are extremely disgusting. To the former peacock's flesh, etc. is agreeable, while to the latter such things are extremely disgusting.' 40. He should be asked: `But how? Do you say that there is no distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable?' `Yes: I say that there is not.' Again after confirming it likewise up to the third time, the question should be asked: `Is Nibbana agreeable or disagreeable?' If he knows he will say: `Agreeable' Even if he should not say so, let him not say [so]. [He should be told:] `But Nibbana is entirely agreeable. It is not [the case] that one who becomes angry when the praises of Nibbana are being spoken asks: "You speak the praises of Nibbana. Are there the five cords of sense-desire there, which are satisfied with food and drink, garlands, perfumes, unguents, couches and clothing?"? And when it is replied: "There are not", [saying:] "Enough of your Nibbana!" he becomes angry when the praises of Nibbana are spoken and stops both his ears. This is agreeable; yet in your assertion according to him Nibbana may be disagreeable. But it is not to be taken thus; for that man speaks out of perverted perception. And it is through perversion (vipallasa) of perception that the same object is agreeable for one and disagreeable to another. But there is the distinguishing of an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable.' 41. But according to whom is it distinguishable? By way of the average being (majjhimaka-satta). For this is not distinguishable according to the likes and dislikes of great emperors such as Mahasammata, Mahasudassana, Dhammasoka and so on. For to them, even a divine object appears unpleasing. Nor is it distinguishable according to [the likes and dislikes of] the extreme unfortunates who find it hard to get food and drink. For to them lumps of broken rice-porridge and the taste of rotten meat seem as exceedingly sweet as ambrosia. But it is distinguishable according to what is found agreeable at one time and disagreeable at another time by average [men such as] accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants. For such are able to distinguish between the agreeable and disagreeable [i.e. it is distinguishable according to the average man's impulsion]. 42 But the Elder Tipitaka Cula-Abhaya said: `The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to [kamma-] result (vipaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sannavipallasa) only that lusts for the agreeable and hates the same agreeable, that lusts for the same disagreeable and hates the same disagreeable. Only by way of [kamma-] result, however, is it rightly distinguishable. For [kamma] resultant consciousness cannot be mistaken. If the object is agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it is unprofitable result that has arisen.' 43. Although those of wrong view, on seeing such exalted objects as the Enlightened One or the Order, or a great shrine and so on, shut their eyes and feel grief (domanassa), and on hearing the sounds of the Law they stop their ears, nevertheless their eye consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc. are only profitable [kamma-] result. 44. Although dung [-eating] pigs and so on, on smelling the odour of dung, become joyful (somanassajata), [thinking]: `We shall get something to eat,' nevertheless their eye-consciousness in the seeing of the dung, nose-consciousness in the smelling its odour [and] tongue-consciousness in tasting its flavour is only unprofitable result. And when a pig is tied up and made to lie on a fine couch, although he cries out, still the mental pain arises only in his impulsions through perversion of perception and his body consciousness is solely profitable consciousness. Why? Because of the agreeableness of the object. 45. Furthermore, agreeableness and disagreeableness should also be understood by way of doors (dvara). For dung-mud which is pleasant to touch is disagreeable in the eye-door and nose-door, and is agreeable in the body-door. For one who is struck by the Wheel- Turning Monarch's (cakkavatti) Gem Treasure (maniratana) and impaled on a golden spike, the golden spikes of the Gem Treasure are agreeable in the eye-door and disagreeable in the body-door. Why? Because of the arousing of great pain. Thus it should be understood that the agreeable and disagreeable are rightly distinguishable only by way of [kamma-] result. 46. Tam tam va pana ("But this or that"): here the above method should be disregarded. For the Blessed One is not dealing with conventional pleasing (sammutimanapa), but He is dealing with the pleasing of the person (puggalamanapa). Therefore inferiority and superiority should be understood by comparison of this and that. For the materiality of the dwellers in hell is called inferior at the lower extremity. Compared with that, among animals that of nagas and suppanas is called superior. Their materiality is inferior. Compared with that, petas materiality is called superior… ===== When I contemplated on that last paragraph, things started to come into focus for me. I remember a recent quote that I read regarding kamma, "Modern society measures quality of actions predominantly by the impact they have on our surroundings. With kamma, we focus on the effect of actions on ourselves (agents of actions)." With this new paradigm, together with the introduction of sannavipallasa (perversion of perception), I am starting to feel more comfortable with the idea of intrinsic qualities. I still need to sort out some implications of this new information, but I think that I am on the right path. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 25969 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 7:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi Sarah and James, ---------- >> S: I appreciate this and again apologise for any possible offence regarding my careless words or humour. It's been a great issue to raise as its highlighted the question of the extent to which we take note of the commentaries. As you say, everyone can decide for themselves. ----------- Needless to say, Sarah, I'm sure none of us thought for one moment that your comments were in any way disrespectful of the Buddha. In contrast, certain statements made by Zen Buddhists seem highly questionable. Sometimes they say, "If you meet the Buddha you must kill him." (I suppose that means you must see that there is only impersonal nama and rupa.). On another Yahoo-list, there is currently a thread named "The Buddha is a [.........]." (a word too objectionable to be repeated here.) This is reputedly another Zen saying and the rationale behind it is that satipatthana can happen at any moment -- even when we are performing the most unglamorous of daily tasks. Zen Buddhists seem to refer to satipatthana as 'the Buddha,' and so they say the Buddha 'is' that unglamorous daily task. (What a shame.) But that is all by the way. I really wanted to comment on this statement of yours, James: "I don't want his sacrifice trivialized or presented incorrectly." That sums up my feelings too and it explains my esteem for DSG; This is the one place I have found where the Buddha and his Dhamma are discussed at a non-trivial level. After joining DSG and having the true nature of satipatthana explained, I rejected my former, trivial, understanding of that practice. Now, I tend to be shocked and affronted (not a good tendency), by popular versions of satipatthana: "When you are walking, know that you are walking; when you are washing the dishes, know that you are washing the dishes." That is NOT what the Buddha taught. Even so, the people who follow popular practices are no less admirable for that. Some 'vipassana meditators,' are like elite artists and athletes -- worthy of respect and admiration -- who attain amazing degrees of concentration. But they unknowingly trivialise the Dhamma; they present it as just another discipline to be mastered. It's as if they are claiming to be black-belt Buddhists. ( And there ain't no such animile.) The Abhidhamma eliminates trivial interpretations that might otherwise be consistent with the Suttanta and Vinaya. If some of us still miss the point, then the Commentaries will put us straight. If we still get it wrong, then people like K Sujin and her students can show us the errors of our inconsistent, incorrect, trivialising, interpretations. Kind regards, Ken H 25970 From: jhcsks Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 8:50pm Subject: G'day! Hi all you wonderful people of the dsg, Have recently joined this fascinating group and would like to say hi. I can pretty much guarantee that I wont be participating all that often, as most of what you're discussing is well and truly over my head. It's been really valuable trying to absorb some of what's been discussed. Didn't just want to be a lurker out in cyber space without introducing myself. Hope you don't mind me "lurking". Kind Regards, Julie 25971 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 11:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, .... > OK, no more laughs, James;-( > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Sarah, You still haven't answered my original question. Could you please be serious for a moment and give your reaction/analysis of the post in question without all of the wisecracks and laughter? (I wouldn't ask, but you brought it up in the first place). Thank you. Metta, James 25972 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 11:50pm Subject: Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: After joining DSG and having the true nature of > satipatthana explained, I rejected my former, trivial, > understanding of that practice. Now, I tend to be > shocked and affronted (not a good tendency), by popular > versions of satipatthana: "When you are walking, know > that you are walking; when you are washing the dishes, > know that you are washing the dishes." That is NOT > what the Buddha taught. Hi Ken H., I am not sure how you are interpreting these directions, but they are what the Buddha taught. Actually, he taught that doing this is the MOST IMPORTANT thing a person should do. This is just a general description for mindfulness of the body: when lying, know that you are lying; when sitting, know that you are sitting; when standing, know that you are standing; when washing the dishes, know that you are washing the dishes, etc. I believe you have it backwards; the mental categorization of nama/rupa suggested by the Abhidhamma and the teachings of K. Sujin (that meditation is unwholesome among others) are not what the Buddha taught. In support, allow me to quote from the Anguttara Nikaya, 11. Mindfulness Directed Toward the Body: "One thing, O monks, if developed and cultivated leads to a strong sense of urgency, to great benefit; to great security from bondage; to mindfulness and clear comprehension; to the attainment of vision and knowledge; to a pleasant dwelling in this very life; to the realization of the fruit of knowledge and liberation. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body. If one thing, O monks, is developed and cultivated, the body is calmed, the mind is calmed, discursive thoughts are quietened, and all wholesome states that partake of supreme knowledge reach fullness of development. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body. If one thing, O monks, is developed and cultivated, ignorance is abandoned, supreme knowledge arises, delusion of self is given up, the underlying tendencies are eliminated and the fetters are discarded. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body." Metta, James 25973 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: G'day! Hi Julie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jhcsks" wrote: > Have recently joined this fascinating group and would like to say > hi. I can pretty much guarantee that I wont be participating all > that often, as most of what you're discussing is well and truly over > my head. It's been really valuable trying to absorb some of what's > been discussed. Didn't just want to be a lurker out in cyber space > without introducing myself. Hope you don't mind me "lurking". Welcome! I take it from your introduction that you are an Aussie. There are quite a number of active Aussies on the list (Christine, KenH, Jon, etc.). If you are interested in Abhidhamma, you might want to download the scripted PowerPoint presentation from the files section, "Introduction to the Abhidhamma". If you are interested in a more general introduction to Buddhism, you might want to download Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" as an e-book from: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I have found that it is introductory questions from ex-lurkers (you now no longer qualify as a lurker!) that raise some of the most interesting exchanges. There are probably some other lurkers out there who are wondering the same things you are. Please post a question or two! Metta, Rob M :-) 25974 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:55am Subject: Re: G'day! Hello Julie, and all, May I add my welcome to RobM's. He didn't tell you the awful truth - there are more from Oz than just KenH (Noosa), Jon (ex-pat in Hong Kong) and myself (South of Brisbane). Additionally, there are Andrew (Sunshine Coast Hinterland), Bodhi 2500 (Steve, also Sunshine Coast Hinterland), Azita (Cairns), and Abhidhammika (Suan, from Canberra). And other lurkers, known - SarahF, and Kieran - and unknown. Where are you from Julie? Is there anything you care to share about yourself and how you came to be interested in the Dhamma? It's worth looking over the Useful Posts (fourth from the top in Files): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and you can have a look at many of us (and maybe add your own photo) in the albums at: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst Speaking of adding photos - any other 'shrinking violets' on the List are also urged, roused, encouraged, [and indeed even nagged and berated] to consider adding their own special decoration to the albums. It is so much nicer to know what those you discuss dhamma with look like. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jhcsks" wrote: > Hi all you wonderful people of the dsg, > > Have recently joined this fascinating group and would like to say > hi. I can pretty much guarantee that I wont be participating all > that often, as most of what you're discussing is well and truly over > my head. It's been really valuable trying to absorb some of what's > been discussed. Didn't just want to be a lurker out in cyber space > without introducing myself. Hope you don't mind me "lurking". > > Kind Regards, > Julie 25975 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:25am Subject: letter about Egypt Dear James, It's me again, Janice! I hope you are keeping well? Well, I have read many of your diaries about Egypt as well as reply to many letters. Well, I have a bountiful amount of questions. However, I shall only ask a few now!!! Does the Buddha believe in committing adultery? (This is like, is there a consequence after you have committed adultery) Is Buddhism only in a specific area in Egypt or the whole of Egypt? Are there Egyptian Buddha prayer books? Metta, Janice 25976 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:27am Subject: Buddhism in Egypt Hi James, It's Hilary. I've read your letters and saw that you've moved to Egypt. Is the living life style there quite different? What religion do most people there believe in? Are the Buddhist temples there built differently? How does it feels as a BUddhist living in Egypt? Well, hope you have a good time living in Egypt Metta, Hilary 25977 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Larry (Howard, KenH, Sarah, etc.), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > I had a thought on the question of the value of objects. This is really > an indirect way of determining what is right and wrong insofar as we are > determining whether an object is the result of a wholesome or > unwholesome root, without actually seeing the root. As such, we could > say it is the abhidhamma basis of democratic law. The ultimate authority > in determining what is inherently desirable doesn't reside with the > king, the general, or the religeous leader. It is the sole right and > responsibility of the merchant class, the average man. > > On another note: regarding what is a specific characteristic, you might > ask, is a wife a characteristic? Answer: yes. See Sukin for details. Some time ago, I was wrestling with the idea of "free will". Once I "saw the light", I was "born again" and I asked, "How could one possibly believe in free will?" I can now appreciate the common closing phrase to many Suttas, "turning upright what had been overthrown". The same thing has now happened to me on the subject of intrinsic properties of rupa. I ask you, "How can you possibly deny that rupa has intrinsic properties?" :-) Let us consider the citta-moments of a sense-door citta process: Citta-moment 1 ============== - Rupa arises (it will continue to exist for 16 more cittas) - Past Bhavanga citta arises (citta 39-46, past life object) Citta-moment 2 and Citta-moment 3 ================================= - Rupa continues - Vibrating Bhavanga and Arresting Bhavanga (citta 39-46, past life object) Citta-moment 4 ============== - Rupa continues - Five Sense Door Adverting consciousness (citta 28): the functional adverting citta is called a controlling citta because it controls the flow of the mental process; either kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka, it is the intrinsic nature of the rupa that conditions the direction of flow Citta-moment 5, Citta-moment 6 and Citta-moment 7 ================================================= - Rupa continues - If the rupa is intrinsically unpleasant, then the series is as follows: sense consciousness (citta 13-17) followed by receiving (citta 18) followed by investigating (citta 19) - If the rupa is intrinsically pleasant, then the series is as follows: sense consciousness (citta 20-24) followed by receiving (citta 25) followed by investigating (citta 26 or citta 27; citta 26 if the object is "gross", citta 27 if the object is "subtle") And so what is the difference between citta 13 (akusala vipaka eye consciousness) and citta 20 (kusala vipaka eye consciousness)? The associated cetasikas are identical, but this is not the point. Citta 13 is conditioned to arise when the object is intrinsically unpleasant whereas citta 20 is conditioned to arise when the object is intrinsically pleasant. Citta-moment 8 ============== - Rupa continues - Determining (citta 28): the functional adverting citta is called a controlling citta because it controls the flow of the mental process; either kusala javana or akusala javana, it is the accumulations (ayuhana) that conditions the direction of flow Citta-moment 9 to Citta-moment 15 ================================= - Rupa continues - If accumulations conditioned the arising of akusala javana cittas then one of the citta 1-12 arises and akusala kamma is created - If accumulations conditioned the arising of kusala javana cittas then one of the citta 31-38 arises and kusala kamma is created - In the case of an Arahant, then one of the citta 47-54 arises and no kamma is created Citta-moment 16 and Citta-moment 17 =================================== - Rupa continues until it falls away at the end of citta-moment 17 - If the rupa is intrinsically unpleasant, then the two registration cittas are citta 19 - If the rupa is intrinsically pleasant and the object is "subtle" (to use a phrase taken from Vibhanga), then the two registration cittas are citta 27 - If the rupa is intrinsically pleasant and the object is "gross" (to use a phrase taken from Vibhanga), then the two registration cittas are one of citta 39-46 From this analysis, does it not imply that the rupa must have an intrinsic pleasant / unpleasant quality (linked to the kamma-result, as pointed out by Buddhaghosa in the Sammohavinodani) to condition the controlling aspect of the sense-door adverting citta and the type of registration citta which arises? Of course, due to perversion of perception (sannavipallasa) we usually do not see the intrinsic nature of the rupa object. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 25978 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:32am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 24-26 for comment What is Citta? Slide Contents ============== - Citta is pure awareness - Process of being aware of an object: Citta is an activity - That which is aware of an object: Citta is an agent - The means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object: Citta is an instrument Speaker Notes ============= Let's take a look at the first ultimate reality, citta or consciousness. We can define citta as an activity, the process of being aware of an object. The problem with this definition is the question, "If there is no self, what is it that is aware?" The answer is that it is the citta itself that is aware of an object. Citta is also like a container; it carries the various mental factors and allows them to access the object. 25979 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:01am Subject: Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi James, ------------- J: > I am not sure how you are interpreting these directions, -------------- Are you really unsure after all this time? Not that I mind going over the same ground yet again. In fact, there is nothing I would rather do. One way of looking at it is to imagine the greatest philosophers and religious leaders in India walking half way across the continent to hear the Buddha. What are they going to think if he tells them to be mindful of what they conventionally know as walking, sitting and lying down? But he didn't tell them anything so utterly banal and pointless. What he did tell them was totally new and profound -- it had nothing to do with conventional understandings of walking and sitting. As we know those things, they are mere concepts relying on the illusory existence of past and future. They fail the simplest tests of ultimate validity. There is nothing new or profound about them. When the Buddha said that an ariyan disciple who is walking knows he is walking, he described the greatest knowledge in the universe -- the knowledge of absolute reality. What is ultimately present when, conventionally speaking, we are walking? There are dhammas experiencing dhammas -- nothing more. Being conditioned, those dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta. Direct knowledge of them as such conditions the realisation of Nibbana, the end of suffering. ------------- J: > but they are what the Buddha taught. Actually, he taught that doing this is the MOST IMPORTANT thing a person should do. ------------- Here again, there is nothing worth travelling across India to hear. But what the Buddha actually taught was entirely different from conventional understanding. When, conventionally speaking, there is a being who 'should do' something, there is, in the Buddha's teaching, mere impersonal dhammas with no interest in whether they arise or don't arise. --------------- J: > This is just a general description for mindfulness of the body: -------------- Mindfulness of the body in the conventional sense, is the domain of animals and uninstructed worldlings. It is not what the Buddha taught. When there is direct right understanding of rupa there is mindfulness of the body as taught by the Buddha. -------------- J: > I believe you have it backwards; the mental categorization of nama/rupa suggested by the Abhidhamma and the teachings of K. Sujin (that meditation is unwholesome among others) are not what the Buddha taught. -------------- It's your prerogative to reject the Abhidhamma. The Theravada school upholds it. As for saying that K Sujin teaches 'meditation is unwholesome,' that's laughable. Her books contain the Buddha's explanations of jhana. She teaches that wrong understanding of meditation is unwholesome. --------------- J: > In support, allow me to quote from the Anguttara Nikaya, 11. Mindfulness Directed Toward the Body: --------------- As usual, I need that sutta explained. Is it about jhana or vipassana or both combined? To answer that, I need a broad knowledge of the Tipitaka, not just a small extract. Kind regards, Ken H 25980 From: Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - In a message dated 10/9/03 11:00:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Sarah), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >In a message dated 10/9/03 7:37:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >rob.moult@j... writes: > >>I am still very uncomfortable with > >>the "inherent pleasantness / unpleasantness" aspects of rupa. > Can > >>you try and explain to me how rupa can have these "inherent" > >>characteristics? > > Rob, I also didn't get this idea of feeling being inherent > in rupas > >until I had a certain conversation with Ken Howard. I realized at > that time that > >I had been thinking in substantialist/eternalist terms when it > seemed to me > >that sometimes a particular rupa is felt as pleasant and at other > times "it" is > >felt as unpleasant. My error was to think of this as *the same* > rupa! It is > >*not* the same rupa. The previous pleasant rupa (say a hardness- > rupa) was > >pleasant. It is now gone, but a current unpleasant rupa (another > hardness-rupa), > >has now arisen. My error lay in identifying different hardnesses > as the same, > >almost countenancing a kind of Platonic 'hardness'. Current > conditions, > >especially intention, lead to the arising of rupas that are > pleasant; other > >conditions lead to rupas that are unpleasant or neutral. A > pleasant rupa is one which > >is discerned as pleasant, an unpleasant rupa is one which is > discerned as > >unpleasant, and a neutral rupa is one which is discerned as > affectively neutral. > >Often, our particular mental state determines what sort of rupa > arises. It is > >not that "the same" rupa arises, now felt as pleasant, now as > unpleasant, and > >now as neutral - they are different rupas. A crunchy texture in > the mouth that > >is pleasant is not the same rupa as a crunchy texture in the mouth > that is > >unpleasant. The first pleasant rupa could be conditioned by the > belief that it > >is a nut in one's mouth, and the second unpleasant rupa could be > conditioned by > >the belief that it is an insect in one's mouth! What distinguishes > the two > >rupas? Answer: Time of occurrence and affective flavor. Different > rupas arising > >from different conditions. The understanding must be phenomenalist > rather than > >"objectivist". > > I'm not sure that I buy this argument. Through object pre-nascence > condition (purejata-paccaya), rupa (object for cittas and cetasikas > in the citta-process) forms the condition for the cittas and > cetasikas arising later. In other words, each rupa in > intrinsically "pleasant" or "unpleasant" before it is taken as > object of a citta. If we think of the sense-door citta process, the > rupa exists for at least three citta durations (past bhavanaga, > vibrating bhavanga, arresting bhavanga - all taking past life > object) before the adverting citta takes the new rupa as object. It > does not make sense to me that the same type of rupa (a millionth of > a second later) arising in a subsequent citta-process could have a > different intrinsic property. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I'm concerned, a rupa that is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is, of necessity, an experienced rupa. Any other rupa is unknown, and the notion of its having an affective flavor is meaningless. It is not yet an actuality. As I see it, a group of phenomenal conditions that serve as conditions for the arising of a rupa, when not yet all in place, can be thought of as "the potential" for that rupa. Until they have all arisen, the rupa, as an experienced phenomenon does not yet exist - is not yet an actuality, but only a growing potential. When all the conditions are in place, the rupa, including its affective characteristic, arises as an actuality. Now, of course, one can take two positions that, on the face of it, are contradictory, but are possibly only two alternative ways of decribing the same set of circumstances. One of these is that the full set of conditioning phenomena have arisen, and thus the pleasant/unpleasant/neutral rupa determined arises. The other is that with the arising of the full set of conditions, two separate phenomena arise, one the rupa, and the other the feeling associated with the experiencing of that rupa. Thus, one view says the set of conditions determines the rupa, and the rupa determines the feeling. The other view says the set of conditions determines the rupa, and the set of conditions also, separately, determines the associated feeling. These are very close, and possibly equivalent. What are *not* equivalent, however, are the views that a rupa, a hardness, say, experienced, at one time (or by one being) is "the same" as a hardness experienced at another time (or by another being). These are different rupas, because rupas that are actualities, and just potentialities, are experienced phenomena, not something independent of experience. Namarupa and vi~n~nana are mutually dependent (as object and subject). I find the second interpretation of a rupa having an affective character determinbed by that rupa as the better view, because it identifies a rupa as a phenomenal reality rather than as something independent of awareness. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > In a footnote in CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi references a section of > Sammohavinodani (The Dispeller of Delusion) under Chapter > I, "Classification of the Aggregates". I have reproduced paragraphs > 39-45 and part of paragraph 46 below: > > ===== > > 39. But a disputatious speaker (vitandavadin) said: `there is no > intrinsic (patiyekka) agreeable and disagreeable. It is stated > according to the likings of these or those, according as it is > said: "I will state the limits of the pleasing, Majesty, in respect > of the five cords of sense-desire. These same visible data (rupa), > Majesty, are pleasing to one and they are unpleasing to another; … > these same sounds … odours … flavours … tangible data, Majesty, are > pleasing to one and they are unpleasing to another." (S i 80) Thus, > because the one enjoys and delights in these visible data and > arouses greed for them, while the other is annoyed and vexed by them > and arouses hate for them; and for the one they are agreeable, > desired and pleasing, and for the other they are disagreeable, > undesired and unpleasing; and the one takes them right-handedly and > agreeable, desired and pleasing, and the other left-handedly as > disagreeable, undesired and unpleasing - therefore there is no > distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable. > For the border dwellers, worms are agreeable and desired and > pleasing, while to the dwellers in the middle country they are > extremely disgusting. To the former peacock's flesh, etc. is > agreeable, while to the latter such things are extremely disgusting.' > (Snip of complex material that doesn't interest me greatly ;-) > > 46. Tam tam va pana ("But this or that"): here the above method > should be disregarded. For the Blessed One is not dealing with > conventional pleasing (sammutimanapa), but He is dealing with the > pleasing of the person (puggalamanapa). Therefore inferiority and > superiority should be understood by comparison of this and that. For > the materiality of the dwellers in hell is called inferior at the > lower extremity. Compared with that, among animals that of nagas and > suppanas is called superior. Their materiality is inferior. Compared > with that, petas materiality is called superior… > > ===== > > When I contemplated on that last paragraph, things started to come > into focus for me. I remember a recent quote that I read regarding > kamma, "Modern society measures quality of actions predominantly by > the impact they have on our surroundings. With kamma, we focus on > the effect of actions on ourselves (agents of actions)." > > With this new paradigm, together with the introduction of > sannavipallasa (perversion of perception), I am starting to feel > more comfortable with the idea of intrinsic qualities. I still need > to sort out some implications of this new information, but I think > that I am on the right path. > > Comments? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I view it, a pleasant taste from the eating of peacock flesh (or of pig dung) is a different rupa than an unpleasant taste fromthe eating of peacock flesh (or of pig dung), whether this involves the same being under differnt circumstances or different beings. There is no independent, self-existent taste of peacock flesh (or pig dung). ------------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25981 From: Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:59am Subject: Correction Re: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi - In a message dated 10/10/03 10:18:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > These are different > rupas, because rupas that are actualities, and just potentialities, are > experienced phenomena, not something independent of experience. ========================== In the foregoing, "and just potentialities" was meant to be "and NOT just potentialities." Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25982 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:54am Subject: Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Hi Ken H.: Here are some responses to the highlights of your post: Ken H: Are you really unsure after all this time? Not that I mind going over the same ground yet again. In fact, there is nothing I would rather do. James: You will have to forgive me if I don't completely know your position on matters. When you use a lot of Pali in your posts, without definitions, I will skip the post. I don't speak Pali and have no desire to learn it; there are many living languages to learn as it is (I have learned/am learning Spanish and I am learning Arabic… no room for Pali ;-). Ken H: One way of looking at it is to imagine the greatest philosophers and religious leaders in India walking half way across the continent to hear the Buddha. What are they going to think if he tells them to be mindful of what they conventionally know as walking, sitting and lying down? But he didn't tell them anything so utterly banal and pointless. What he did tell them was totally new and profound -- it had nothing to do with conventional understandings of walking and sitting. James: I think you have the wrong idea of what the Buddha was like. He wasn't like some kind of guru on the mountain top who people visited to get life's answers. When people traveled to see him they did it for predominately two reasons: to join his Sangha or to venerate him; not to discuss philosophy or dhamma with him. He didn't participate in colloquy. Granted, his lay visitors may ask a question or two, and he would give an answer or two, but anything more than that and they would have to ordain to get the answers. Then he would teach that person the PRACTICE of knowing the difference between sitting and sitting with mindfulness; standing and standing with mindfulness; lying and lying with mindfulness, etc. Words and philosophy of dhamma mean nothing without the practice. Ken H: As usual, I need that sutta explained. Is it about jhana or vipassana or both combined? To answer that, I need a broad knowledge of the Tipitaka, not just a small extract. James: No, you don't need that sutta explained. You know, the problem with you is that you think you need too many things explained. To understand, you just need to do it…start paying attention to your body. Granted, you aren't going to do it perfectly to begin with, you will have to monitor and adjust your technique as you go along; and there will be times when you will get tired, or restless, or have doubts (the hindrances), but you just need to keep doing it. Then you will understand…and only then. All the explanation in the world isn't going to make you understand. You have to understand on your own, through your own efforts. That is what the Buddha taught. Metta, James 25983 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] discussions Myanmar. Dear Sarah, As to points of discussion in Myanmar, intellectually we can understand that sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthis are extremely subtle. We can also cling to "me" just with lobha, no wrong view or conceit. It would be helpful to hear more about it. You formulated it very well: Sarah: quite sure that at the higher stages of insight any lingering > sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthi are extremely subtle. Even now, amongst > grosser forms, I am sure there are many subtle variants that we have > little idea about. Quite possibly, too, that many so called conceits (or > sense-of-self’ cittas), may with more wisdom turn out to be one form of > ditthi or other. They follow each other so very closely, I find.> Q 2: about the four discriminations: Very high degrees of panna, some mundane, some lokuttara as the Tiika says. We cannot even try to grasp what they are, and when reading texts we meet many difficulties. Such as nirutti, language. The Atthasalini says that the name of a reality, such as feeling arises together with that reality. Even intellectually, hard to understand. If someone can help us to understand this a little more it is good. It depends on the occasion, there will be so many discussions on satipatthana which comes foremost. Nina. 25984 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] G'day! Hi Julie, Welcome here. There are difficult topics and surely difficult forall of us. But by discussing we learn more. Any question is welcome, it helps us to consider more. I hope you will not be a lurker, Nina. op 10-10-2003 05:50 schreef jhcsks op julie_and_steve@b...: I can pretty much guarantee that I wont be participating all > that often, as most of what you're discussing is well and truly over > my head. 25985 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Larry, op 10-10-2003 02:21 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: What I really wanted to know is > what exactly is tranquility. Is it a kind of mental feeling? N: No, not feeling cetasika. Two cetasikas are tranquillity, pasaddhi: calm of body and of mind. Body stands for: mental body, the cetasikas. Calm of body allays agitation of the accompnaying cetasikas, and calm of mind allays agitation of citta. Thus they are formations khandha, not feeling khandha. L:If so, I'm > surprised it would be included with higher jhana cittas and path and > fruition cittas. I would think these cittas would be free of feeling. N: see above. And as to being free from feeling, no, feeling always accompanies each kind of citta. L: Also, any ideas on what is the difference between nirodha samapatti and > bhavanga cittas? Do bhavanga cittas arise during nirodha samapatti? N: See B. Dictionary, Nyanatiloka, for details. The anagami and arahat who have developed jhana and insight can attain it. There is a subtle residuum of citta and cetasikas, and it is quite different from bhavangacitta which only experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness, throughout life. After emerging they experience fruition-consciousness. Nina. 25986 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Verse On The Buddha's Last Lunch: Anaadara? Dear Suan, Thank you very much, I begin to understand. No concern is clearer, we should not take respect literally when it comes to grammar. Taking again the sentence: bhutassa ca suukaramaddavena: The -ena ending is instrumentalis, not ablative. As I read in Warder, which does not give many details, ablative would rather give the cause, the reason of something. But Instrumentalis is more general, has more meanings, not so definite. What do you think? it can influence our translation. Nina. op 09-10-2003 17:51 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Anaadara (a verb showing disrespect or no concern) is one of unique > or peculiar technical terms of the traditional Pali grammar texts. > > It is best that we should focuss on what this peculiar term refers to > syntactically and how we can use or interpret its syntactical form. > > The syntactical form of "anaadara / disrespect" is, as we have seen, > cha.t.thii vibhatti / the genitive case. > > When the genitive case takes on the sense of "grammartical > disrespect", so to speak, then we don't translate the genetive form > in terms of usual possessiveness (noun's / of noun). > > Rather, we would translate the genetive form with the sense > of "grammartical disrespect" in terms of "while/when/despite/even > though/regardless of" subordinate clauses or phrases. > 25987 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal, merit Hi Derek, op 09-10-2003 17:52 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@y...: > My hypothesis is that the Buddhist orthodoxy of the time held that > giving food to monks was a virtuous act. N: Yes, that is for all times. It is the wholesome intention that makes the virtuous act of dana. The receiver, in this case the Buddha, also conditions the degree of merit for the giver. There is still merit if what you give would by accident turn out unfavorable to the receiver. D: Now, someone who wanted to argue with this would counter, "If giving > food to monks is a virtuous act, then how come Cunda's alms-giving > caused the death of the Buddha?" > > The only way to maintain the orthodoxy would be to claim that Cunda's > alms-giving *didn't* cause the death of the Buddha. > > Hence the commentators and the author of the Milindapanha taking > pains to argue this point, and so maintain the consistency of the > Buddhist worldview. N: Buddhaghosa did not fabricate any stories, he had no advantage doing this. Cunda had pure intention, and the Buddha explained later on that two kinds of giving were the most meritorious in the world: food given before his enlightenment and food given before his parinibbana. The Commentators were very careful and did not utter their own opinion, ancient sources rehearsed at the first council were used. They toke note of the original sutta very carefully, making no mistakes in the grammar, as you can read from Suan's explanations. Following the grammar rules, the story comes out very clearly. We, poor Pali students of the present time, have much more trouble to really understand the subtle points. Very helpful that Suan brings up the grammatical explanations of Agavamsa's Saddaniiti. Nina. 25988 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga. Tiika 17, daily life. op 09-10-2003 09:58 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...:> > For myself (& Jon), however, we find it invaluable. Perhaps now, much of > it is over our heads or we may just consider a little intellecutually, but > we never know when it may be a condition for deeper reflection or when a > Larry’ may come along with a probing question which helps us to consider > more carefully. N: Yes, the discussions with Larry makes us consider more carefully the contents of the Visuddhimagga and Tiika. S: until you added the Tiika lines about the various kinds of kosalla > (skill), I had never really considered the importance of understanding the > skill in detriment’ in daily life. N: Neither did I. And I still forget this!! > Tiika: Herein this is called, means: understanding concerning the non-arising and > cessation of profitable dhammas and the arising and maintenance of > unprofitable dhammas,this is called skill in detriment. > **** S: We may think that all we need to understand is the development of > wholesome states and that anytime we’re taking a break’ there is no cause > for concern. However, I think it’s very helpful to understand how > detrimental states develop whenever wholesome states are not developing. N: I am glad you are summarizing this again. I like to take breaks! But, when we do not act, speak or think with the objectives of dana, sila or bhavana, the cittas are akusala. We forget that we are accumulating new akusala on and on. S: In other words, if there isn’t the understanding of the way unprofitable > dhammas’ accumulate in daily life, there is no way that they will > diminish. > Tiika; “Thus also skill in detriment is truly understanding." N: And panna does not have to think, it just realizes immediately what is detriment. Thank you for summarizing and reminding us again. I hope you will do this more often. Otherwise we get so lost in the words and do not consider them enough in daily life, and that is the purpose of our study. Nina. 25989 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Sukin, I would say that the Buddha's teaching is not about what concept is and what reality is, it is not about seeing the dichotomy between these two. Discussions along those lines of inquiry can be fascinating; nevertheless, those discussion are irrelevant to the Buddha's teaching. Regarding mindfulness, I would refer to the discourses Anapanasati Sutta Mindfulness of Breathing http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html Kayagata-sati Sutta Mindfulness Immersed in the Body http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html and Satipatthana Sutta Frames of Reference http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html Regarding causal relations in the context of what the Buddha taught, I would refer to the discourses in Nidana Vagga (samyuttas XII-XXI) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Nidana and the discourses on kamma/action. Peace, Victor [snip] 25990 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Larry, The view "A person, a human being, is formed of the five aggregates" is a self-view(or personality view.) Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sukin: "Are you saying that the rise and fall of khandhas is equivalent > to a person rising and falling?" > > Hi Sukin, > > I would say there is rise and fall of a person and also continuity of a > person. I was thinking of the dependent arising formula. At the stage of > birth enough khandhas have come together in a particular way to form a > person. A person grows old, gets sick, and dies. Then another person > continuity arises with the whole baggage of the previous person > continuity. The same goes for groups of people but there isn't > necessarily a continuity between the dissolution of one group and the > arising of another. But this kamma stuff is just conceptual. No one sees > it arising from seed to fruition, one life to another. Right? > > It's all about what you can see arising and falling. You can see a > feeling arising, a person arising, a building arising, an argument > arising, and a government arising. > > Larry 25991 From: Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Victor: "The view "A person, a human being, is formed of the five aggregates" is a self-view(or personality view.)" Hi Victor, Are you a person? Larry 25992 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hello Victor, Larry, and All, Would the Bhara Sutta and its notes be of assistance in your discussion? metta and peace, Christine ---The Trouble is that you think you have time--- "Bhara Sutta The Burden At Savatthi. "Monks, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the casting off of the burden. [1] Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging- aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging- aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging- aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden. "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. "And which is the taking up of the burden? The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. This is called the taking up of the burden. "And which is the casting off of the burden? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. This is called the casting off of the burden." That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well- gone, the Teacher, said further: A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person. Taking up the burden in the world is stressful. Casting off the burden is bliss. Having cast off the heavy burden and not taking on another, pulling up craving, along with its root, one is free from hunger, totally unbound. " ---------------- Note 1. This discourse parallels the teaching on the four noble truths, but with a twist. The "burden" is defined in the same terms as the first noble truth, the truth of suffering & stress. The taking on of the burden is defined in the same terms as the second noble truth, the origination of stress; and the casting off of the burden, in the same terms as the third noble truth, the cessation of stress. The fourth factor, however -- the carrier of the burden -- has no parallel in the four noble truths, and has proven to be one of the most controversial terms in the history of Buddhist philosophy. When defining this factor as the person (or individual, puggala), the Buddha drops the abstract form of the other factors, and uses the ordinary, everyday language of narrative: the person with such-and- such a name. And how would this person translate into more abstract factors? He doesn't say. After his passing away, however, Buddhist scholastics attempted to provide an answer for him, and divided into two major camps over the issue. One camp refused to rank the concept of person as a truth on the ultimate level. This group inspired what eventually became the classic Theravada position on this issue: that the "person" was simply a conventional designation for the five aggregates. However, the other camp -- who developed into the Pudgalavadin (Personalist) school -- said that the person was neither a ultimate truth nor a mere conventional designation, neither identical with nor totally separate from the five aggregates. This special meaning of person, they said, was required to account for three things: the cohesion of a person's identity in this lifetime (one's person's memories, for instance, cannot become another person's memories); the unitary nature of rebirth (one person cannot be reborn in several places at once); and the fact that, with the cessation of the khandhas at the death of an arahant, he/she is said to attain the Further Shore. However, after that moment, they said, nothing further could be said about the person, for that was as far as the concept's descriptive powers could go. As might be imagined, the first group accused the second group of denying the concept of anatta, or not-self; whereas the second group accused the first of being unable to account for the truths that they said their concept of person explained. Both groups, however, found that their positions entangled them in philosophical difficulties that have never been successfully resolved. Perhaps the most useful lesson to draw from the history of this controversy is the one that accords with the Buddha's statements in MN 72, where he refuses to get involved in questions of whether a person has a live essence separate from or identical to his/her body, or of whether after death there is something of an arahant that exists or not. In other words, the questions aren't worth asking. Nothing is accomplished by assuming or denying an ultimate reality behind what we think of as a person. Instead, the strategy of the practice is to comprehend the burden that we each are carrying and to throw it off. That is what will settle all questions. [Go back] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-022.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Victor: "The view "A person, a human being, is formed of the five > aggregates" is a self-view(or personality view.)" > > Hi Victor, > > Are you a person? > > Larry 25993 From: Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 22, 23 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the four patisambhida.] 22. Herein, "meaning" (attha) is briefly a term for the fruit of a cause (hetu). For in accordance with the cause it is served, (7) arrived at, reached, therefore it is called 'meaning' (or 'purpose'). But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced, [441] (ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional (consciousness), should be understood as "meaning". When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling within the category (pabheda) concerned with meaning, is the "discrimination of meaning". 23. "Law" (dhamma) is briefly a term for a condition (paccaya). For since a condition necessitates (dahati) whatever it may be, makes it occur or allows it to happen, it is therefore called 'law' (dhamma). But in particular the five things, namely,(i) any cause that produces fruit, (ii) the noble path, (iii) what is spoken, (iv) what is profitable, and (v) what is unprofitable, should be understood as "law". When anyone reviews that law, any knowledge of his, falling within the category concerned with the law, is the "discrimination of law". --------------- (7) "Ariiyati--'to honor, to serve'. Not in P.T.S. Dict. Cf. ger. ara.niiya (MA.i,21,173), also not in P.T.S. Dict. explained by Majjhima .Tikaa as 'to be honored. (payiruupasitabbaa). 25994 From: Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Christine, What is your view? Are you a person or not, and why? Larry 25995 From: Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 22, 23 "When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling within the category (pabheda) concerned with meaning, is the "discrimination of meaning"." Hi Nina, Do we have a commentary on this "anyone"? It seems to contradict Vism. XIV, 27 regarding trainers and non-trainers. Generally, here are a few speculative ideas on the 4 patisambhida: We might regard this as a description of the experience of an arahant and the path of trainers. As such, we could possibly divide it into body, speech, and mind; "attha" and "dhamma" being the 'body' of that experience, speech being highly evocative, and mind being transparent. Judging by the examples given of 'meaning' in CMA, I am inclined to think 'meaning' is equivalent to sign (nimitta), a product of sanna khandha. If so, we could possibly understand attha and dhamma as experience arising as grammatical analysis (object and verb, attha and dhamma) without the need to convert that experience into vitakka and vicara, which is what we do in ordinary analysis. In other words, a kind of analytical understanding that arises with/as experience. Larry 25996 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Christine and all, Christine, this is an excellent reference and its notes are of relevance. I remember reading this sutta. When I was replying to Larry's message, the thought of aggregates being burdens was in the back of my mind. But now you brought up this reference, which is indeed opportune. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, Larry, and All, > Would the Bhara Sutta and its notes be of assistance in your > discussion? > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The Trouble is that you think you have time--- [snip] 25997 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Yes, Larry, I am a person, a human being. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Victor: "The view "A person, a human being, is formed of the five > aggregates" is a self-view(or personality view.)" > > Hi Victor, > > Are you a person? > > Larry 25998 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison Nice! ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal. the Pali, also to Rob Edison > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > > LOL! No, this explanation doesn't sound like a brainwashed > > explanation (when you start to get into that no-control, meditation > > is dangerous/unnecessary kick that you sound brainwashed), > .... > LOL ...that's coming next;-) > .... > > this just > > sounds like a simple case of selective attention. Granting that the > > one line in Pali is ambiguous (which I will have to take Derek's word > > for that) the other details of the incident combined with that one > > ambiguous line makes the whole incident far from ambiguous. That is > > just common sense. The commentaries come up with this fantastic > > story that isn't suggested by the text at all, that isn't ambiguous > > either. > ...... > I can live with the 'selective attention' theory;-). Do you have any > theory as to why the commentaries, originally recounted by arahants and > carefully preserved by more arahants like Mahinda who brought them to Sri > Lanka, later to be compiled by highly esteemed bhikkhus like Buddhaghosa, > and then preserved for us to read today, should, according to you, defy > common sense and make up a 'fantastic story' like this which even the > highly esteemed Pali grammarians throughout the centuries have 'fallen > for'? > ..... > >I guess each person needs to decide for him/herself which > > answer is the most plausible. I believe it is more plausible that > > the Buddha got sick from that meal and died; those are definitely > > what the facts point to. > .... > No problem. I'm sure anyone who prefers to ignore the commentaries will > come to the same conclusion. No sweat. > .... > >Since you refer to old English riddles, I > > will refer to an old English philosopher: William of Occam, the > > medieval philosopher, set forth the logical principal of `Occam's > > Razor,' which states that one should not make more assumptions than > > the minimum needed. > .... > Ah yes, but then, but then.....what about the 'Dhamma Congress', the 'Pali > Congress', the 'Abhidhamma Congress' and the future of DSG???;-) > > Just kidding, James. If only life were so simple.....;-) Believe me, I > understand the appeal of just keeping a couple of collections of suttas > (throwing out those given by disciples such as Sariputta), discarding the > Vinaya (not that you'd do this), Abhidhamma and Commentaries (you might do > this) and accepting the first sutta translation one comes across (today > that seems to be Thanissaro's) at face value. > > Let's see if I can go and add 'more assumptions' and complicate a few > other threads;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Jon and I had a good laugh at your 'tender pork' post which followed > Suan's. Note: this is NOT a pat on the head - nor have I given any > advice;-) > ===== > 25999 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal, merit Excellent answer to a fair hypothesis. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the Buddha's Last Meal, merit > Hi Derek, > op 09-10-2003 17:52 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@y...: > > > My hypothesis is that the Buddhist orthodoxy of the time held that > > giving food to monks was a virtuous act. > N: Yes, that is for all times. It is the wholesome intention that makes the > virtuous act of dana. The receiver, in this case the Buddha, also conditions > the degree of merit for the giver. There is still merit if what you give > would by accident turn out unfavorable to the receiver. > D: Now, someone who wanted to argue with this would counter, "If giving > > food to monks is a virtuous act, then how come Cunda's alms-giving > > caused the death of the Buddha?" > > > > The only way to maintain the orthodoxy would be to claim that Cunda's > > alms-giving *didn't* cause the death of the Buddha. > > > > Hence the commentators and the author of the Milindapanha taking > > pains to argue this point, and so maintain the consistency of the > > Buddhist worldview. > N: Buddhaghosa did not fabricate any stories, he had no advantage doing > this. Cunda had pure intention, and the Buddha explained later on that two > kinds of giving were the most meritorious in the world: food given before > his enlightenment and food given before his parinibbana. The Commentators > were very careful and did not utter their own opinion, ancient sources > rehearsed > at the first council were used. > They toke note of the original sutta very carefully, making no mistakes in > the grammar, as you can read from Suan's explanations. Following the grammar > rules, the story comes out very clearly. We, poor Pali students of the > present time, have much more trouble to really understand the subtle points. > Very helpful that Suan brings up the grammatical explanations of Agavamsa's > Saddaniiti. > Nina. > >